Jesus Camp highlights

[ClayTrainor]

YouTube - Brain Washing ( Jesus Camp ''Highlights'' ) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac)

I hope "to god", Christians on this forum denounce this type of behavior and indoctrination, :o

[specsaregood]

It's available for streaming on netflix (or was recently). i found it quite entertaining.

[PaulineDisciple]

What objective standard are you using to declare that this is "wrong" and something they "ought" not do?

[ClayTrainor]

What objective standard are you using to declare that this is "wrong" and something they "ought" not do?

For one, i think there is a very close relationship between relgious worship and political worship.

YouTube - Jesus Camp Extract Praise Bush (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxdt_f0hwUg)

They "ought not" to teach kids to worship lords, tyrants and collective power.

[zach]

They can believe what they want.. but the adults are imposing their own beliefs based on insecurity and fear that their viewpoint isn't the forefront of society, and the kids are sponges to that viewpoint.

[dannno]

What objective standard are you using to declare that this is "wrong" and something they "ought" not do?

Well none of us here are the "there ought to be a law against that!" type... but if we call these people out with their foolishness then others will be less likely to participate.

On the other hand, maybe praying in tongues is a great way to communicate using our divine spirit :confused:

I still don't think a building is a good place to worship what God created for us. I'll stick to nature...

[PaulineDisciple]

They "ought not" to teach kids to worship lords, tyrants and collective power.
Asserting they "ought not" is not an argument objectively "proving" that it is "wrong" for them to do it.

[Deborah K]

Asserting they "ought not" is not an argument objectively "proving" that it is "wrong" for them to do it.

Are you saying that you agree with what went on in the clip?

[sevin]

I can't stand this. I don't mind if older people worship this way, but these kids have no idea what they're doing. They scream and cry and laugh, and it's not based on any complex understanding of religion, spirituality and faith. It's all emotional behavior that they've been brainwashed into.

I hope Christian parents give their kids an opportunity to really learn and understand religion and let this type of behavior be optional. The area of the brain that deals with very abstract ideas (religion, philosophy) isn't even done developing until around age 12 or 13. Until then, these kids are just parrots.

[ladyjade3]

I'm really glad we have religious freedom to this extent still. And you better believe my children will be "indoctrinated" to my world view, just like I was indoctrinated to my parents' world view. As I grew up, I was able to determine what was good and what was suboptimal. My kids will do the same.

The kids in this movie will also grow up, and many of them will marvel at what they believed as a child and what their parents believe.

I would fight for the freedom of these people to train up their children how they see fit, because their freedom is also my freedom.

[Original_Intent]

I didn't watch the video, but without watching it I can say this much...

If there is no God, then parents are just screwing up the product of their combined DNA - THEY created it - nobody else's business, unless those kids interfere with somebody else's liberty.

If there is a God, he sent those childred to those parents it is His decision and the parents are accountable to God, not to you, for how they raise their kids. Again, unless the kids violate someone else's liberty, it's no one else's business.

[Deborah K]

I didn't watch the video, but without watching it I can say this much...

If there is no God, then parents are just screwing up the product of their combined DNA - THEY created it - nobody else's business, unless those kids interfere with somebody else's liberty.

If there is a God, he sent those childred to those parents it is His decision and the parents are accountable to God, not to you, for how they raise their kids. Again, unless the kids violate someone else's liberty, it's no one else's business.

In the video they appear to be revering Bush. This is the problem that I have with the video.

[MsDoodahs]

i'm really glad we have religious freedom to this extent still. And you better believe my children will be "indoctrinated" to my world view, just like i was indoctrinated to my parents' world view. As i grew up, i was able to determine what was good and what was suboptimal. My kids will do the same.

The kids in this movie will also grow up, and many of them will marvel at what they believed as a child and what their parents believe.

I would fight for the freedom of these people to train up their children how they see fit, because their freedom is also my freedom.

^^this^^

[PatriotOne]

Pastor Ted Haggard also takes part in that Jesus Camp. He got caught soliciting homosexual sex and buying methamphetamines. These are the people indoctrinating your children in the phoney baloney "Jesus Camp" and getting them ready to die in their phoney baloney holy wars...which is nothing more than more nation building and there is nothing "godly" about it.

[Mini-Me]

In the video they appear to be revering Bush. This is the problem that I have with the video.

You are certainly not alone. As dannno said, very few of us fall into the "there ought to be a law" category, but this video should still be a heads up to all of us about some of the mindless neocons we're going to be facing in the future. Their neoconservatism is going to be much more intertwined with their religion and sense of identity than most of what we're facing today. Unlike ladyjade's kids (hopefully at least), I have a feeling these ones are being indoctrinated so thoroughly that they will never in their lives be able to think independently. Aside from politics, I still think that's an abominable thing for parents to do to their children, and I will damn well voice my opinion on it, even if it's technically "none of my business."

[GBurr]

Jesus camp is a scary documentary. It doesn't come close to representing evangelical Christianity as a whole. Instead the documentary focuses on a Pentecostal camp that has some of the most extreme beliefs of any evangelical Christians.

How does Becky Fisher explain away Ephesians Chapter 5.

Beware Christians that believe in morality through law.

Let me also say that I'm a student at Jerry Falwell's Liberty University. I would describe myself as an evangelical. I also happen to be one of the Moral Majorities fiercest critics.

Christians that believe that they can make people more moral through law have got it backwards. You cannot spread the word of God with the sword. The problems is that most Christians fail to realize that government is force. It is nothing more than a sword.

[PaulineDisciple]

Are you saying that you agree with what went on in the clip?
No, I am just asking what objective standard is he using to judge it wrong. Is it just his subjective personal opinion or is this wrong according to an objective standard?

[Baptist]

Somebody at work lent this to me back in 2006. They knew I was a Christian and wanted to provoke me. It was a burned copy so I didn't see a case/cover or anything, just the title written with a black sharpie. When I got home I told my roommate that the movie was probably going to show a bunch of Pentecostals running around crazy and paint that as the face of American Christianity.

Sure enough, that's exactly what the movie did.


Crusades, inquisitions, warmongering neocons, this movie....I can see why "Christianity" leaves a bad taste in peoples' mouths. True, Biblical Christianity always has been and probably always will be practiced by the small remnant. This country wouldn't know true Christianity if it smacked them up against the side of the head.


BTW, good post ladyjade3.

[Kotin]

That is some sick shit.

[teacherone]

That is some sick shit.

Show it to that banned muslim hater.

He'd get a kick out of it I'm sure.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Ok. Here is a problem I have.

Had this been the video of those militant Obama high school kids, or some dumb college Obama drone, or a video of Sean Hannity. . .

NOBODY in here would be saying "Well! What objective view do you have to say this is wrong!?!? Who are you to say they are wrong? Its their right to say whatever they want, so who are you to criticize them? Its just their personal opinion."

I have never once in this forum seen someone defend crazy ass political or social views to such an extent as people defend these insane religious views.

[Theocrat]

YouTube - Brain Washing ( Jesus Camp ''Highlights'' ) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac)

I hope "to god", Christians on this forum denounce this type of behavior and indoctrination, :o

You simply refuse to be consistent with your own personal philosophy about human nature, don't you? According to you, humans are nothing more than just biological machines, subject to chemistry and physics. So then why won't you just conclude that those kids are simply acting that way because of the electrochemical responses and makeup of their bodies? Yet, you assume there is some way they can (and ought) to overcome such behavior, as if they had free will or something when your scientific beliefs do not allow such an assumption.

It then makes no sense for you to "hope to God that Christians on this forum denounce this type of behavior and indoctrination" when you believe such behavior and indoctrination is a mere consequence of matter and impersonal forces of nature. Yet, you will not remain rational in your beliefs, and your conclusions betray the fallacy of your scientific philosophy on human beings.

[ClayTrainor]

You simply refuse to be consistent with your own personal philosophy about human nature, don't you? According to you, humans are nothing more than just biological machines, subject to chemistry and physics. So then why won't you just conclude that those kids are simply acting that way because of the electrochemical responses and makeup of their bodies? Yet, you assume there is some way they can (and ought) to overcome such behavior, as if they had free will or something when your scientific beliefs do not allow such an assumption.

I never once brought up science or my "beliefs" in here. You're jumping the shark, lmao. Try not to get so emotional :)


It then makes no sense for you to "hope to God that Christians on this forum denounce this type of behavior and indoctrination" when you believe such behavior and indoctrination is a mere consequence of matter and impersonal forces of nature.

There's nothing outside of nature. Everything that exists, is natural. ;)

I used "hope to god" as a figure of speech. I don't endorse any kind of indoctrination and agenda driven lies being told to children, and the kind displayed in the video above is no exception. I can find Muslim indoctrination videos that are just as offensive, or even moreso. This is not an attack on Christianity, it is an attack on religious indoctrination, which is just as bad as political indoctrination in my opinion.



Yet, you will not remain rational in your beliefs, and your conclusions betray the fallacy of your scientific philosophy on human beings.
:rolleyes:

I'm sorry you felt the need to ramble 2 paragraphs about how you feel about me, based on a video clip and 1 small sentence i posted, that was very obviously a play on words, and was not disrespectful. I don't have a scientific philosophy of human beings, i have a rational natural philosophy, not a supernatural one ;)

I don't claim there is no supernatural being in charge of it all, I simply reject the certainty of a supernatural being, and that really upsets you to the point where you choose to attack me on topics that are irrelevant to this thread, instead rationally analyze the video in the OP.

More brilliant points brought up by Theocrat.
http://liberty92.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/clapping-hands-lg1.jpg

[ClayTrainor]

Oh, and i guess i should be a gentlemen and answer your questions. :)


According to you, humans are nothing more than just biological machines, subject to chemistry and physics.
Yes. The entire universe is based on chemsitry and physics, and how matter and energy interacts within the 11 dimensions.

We are essentially the universe looking in on and exploring itself. We are star stuff.



So then why won't you just conclude that those kids are simply acting that way because of the electrochemical responses and makeup of their bodies?
They are. Everything behaves because of the nature of its existence.

Young mammalian forms of life are dependent on their elders for knowledge of how to engage in this world and 3 dimensional existence in the universe. Genetics give them the memory to operate their bodies and survive, but morality must be gained from what we learn in the 3 dimensions.



Yet, you assume there is some way they can (and ought) to overcome such behavior, as if they had free will or something when your scientific beliefs do not allow such an assumption.

They do have free will, but there is something blocking their knowledge ;)


It then makes no sense for you to "hope to God that Christians on this forum denounce this type of behavior and indoctrination" when you believe such behavior and indoctrination is a mere consequence of matter and impersonal forces of nature.

Actually it makes perfect sense theo. My morality is based on individual human rights. They are natural, not supernatural.

[Theocrat]

I never once brought up science or my "beliefs" in here. You're jumping the shark, lmao. Try not to get so emotional :)

I'm getting at your motivation for posting the video in the first place. Obviously, you have a problem with the video, as if the kids in it aren't doing something they ought to be doing (which, in your opinion, is not to be indoctrinated into such behavior as shown). Yet, your scientific beliefs on the nature of humans cannot rationally warrant your disgust with the video, in the first place. Those kids are just believing and behaving based on natural causes. So then you having a problem with what happens at a "Jesus Camp" is totally irrelevant because the kids can't help what they are doing, if your scientific assumptions are true.


There's nothing outside of nature. Everything that exists, is natural. ;)

I used "hope to god" as a figure of speech. I don't endorse any kind of indoctrination and agenda driven lies being told to children, and the kind displayed in the video above is no exception. I can find Muslim indoctrination videos that are just as offensive, or even moreso. This is not an attack on Christianity, it is an attack on religious indoctrination, which is just as bad as political indoctrination in my opinion.

If everything which exists is natural, then it's quite natural that Christian kids can behavior and be indoctrinated at a Jesus Camp, now isn't it? The Muslims which blow themselves up for Allah are acting based on nature, too. So, you shouldn't have any problem with those natural, religious people, no matter what their beliefs allow them to do. Calling it "bad" assumes an objective moral standard, which, once again, your scientific beliefs cannot allow you to do. Nature tells us what is the case, not what ought to be the case, after all. You want to go from facts to values, but you simply can't do it rationally by your scientific worldview.


:rolleyes:

I'm sorry you felt the need to ramble 2 paragraphs about how you feel about me, based on a video clip and 1 small sentence i posted, that was very obviously a play on words. I don't have a scientific philosophy of human beings, i have a rational natural philosophy, not a supernatural one ;)

I don't claim there is no supernatural being in charge of it all, I simply reject the certainty of a supernatural being, and that really upsets you to the point where you choose to attack me instead rationally analyze the video in the OP.

More brilliant points brought up by Theocrat.
http://liberty92.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/clapping-hands-lg1.jpg

I'm calling you to be consistent in your beliefs, and posting a video about a Jesus Camp which you don't agree with is not being consistent with your evolutionary assumptions that humans are nothing more than molecules in motion. Molecules don't have values, after all.

[ClayTrainor]

Yet, your scientific beliefs on the nature of humans cannot rationally warrant your disgust with the video, in the first place. Those kids are just believing and behaving based on natural causes.
Genetics are memory to operate the biological functions of life, but morality must be gained in the 3 dimensions, that our conscious life exists in.




So then you having a problem with what happens at a "Jesus Camp" is totally irrelevant because the kids can't help what they are doing, if your scientific assumptions are true.

Do you even understand what "indoctrination" means? Kids are very impressionable. All mamallian forms of life gain their morality and respect for rights of others from others who already existed before them. they learn! It is our responsibility to TEACH them, not TELL them.

indoctrination:
"teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically"

I am for them being presented with information and rationally coming to their own individual conclusions. We must always try and emphasize the importance of individual rights, in my opinion. What you see in the above video is anything but a rational form of education.

I oppose it for the same reasons i would oppose "atheism" being taught in the same manner.



If everything which exists is natural, then it's quite natural that Christian kids can behavior and be indoctrinated at a Jesus Camp, now isn't it?
Obviously, but what is moral and what is natural are 2 different concepts. Morality is dependent on nature, but nature is not dependent on morality, it must be defined by our natural rights.


The Muslims which blow themselves up for Allah are acting based on nature, too.
They are acting on a false belief in a supernatural being ;)

It is immoral and wrong, both you and i will agree on that for different reasons.



So, you shouldn't have any problem with those natural, religious people, no matter what their beliefs allow them to do.

I have a problem when children are indoctrinated by singular world views at a very young age, regardless of what's being pushed on them.



Calling it "bad" assumes an objective moral standard, which, once again, your scientific beliefs cannot allow you to do. Nature tells us what is the case, not what ought to be the case, after all. You want to go from facts to values, but you simply can't do it rationally by your scientific worldview.

I don't get my morality from darwinism which is basically what you're implying.

Theocrat, if someone dropped you off naked in a forest, with no technology and you encountered a pack of 20 hungry wolves. Do you have a right to life? Sure, but the wolves aren't going to respect it. Do the wolves have a right to free speech? Are you going to stop them if they howl? Yes, of course they have that right, but i for one respect the natural rights of humans not wolves. Therefore, if i was present with a gun, i would kill every single wolf to defend your singular human life, Theocrat.

My morality comes from respect for individual rights of man. I recognize no supreme being as a certainty nor as a necessity for the rights to exist. They are natural and inherent in our existence.




I'm calling you to be consistent in your beliefs, and posting a video about a Jesus Camp which you don't agree with is not being consistent with your evolutionary assumptions that humans are nothing more than molecules in motion. Molecules don't have values, after all.
I don't even know what kind of point your trying to make sometimes Theo. Are you not opposed to the indoctrination displayed in the above video? Do you see that as a wise form of educating kids on Christianity? I personally think your Christian views could be represented a whole lot better than the nutjob children indoctrinators in the above video :o

[ClayTrainor]

By the way, i like the title of your last post "lifting the scab".

Normally, when i lift a scab it hurts, you're just making me giggle theo. :)

[ClayTrainor]

I'm getting at your motivation for posting the video in the first place.

I posted it to see how whether or not there are any Christians approve of the behavior in the above video, because i personally see it as a total contradiction to some of the things Jesus said.

I do not associate the contents of the video with Christianity as a whole, if that's what you're implying.

(Sorry for the triple post)

[adara7537]

This documentary made me want to throw up. I think it's obscene what these people are putting these kids through but as I said in the other post with this video-it is the very definition of Freedom of Religion so as far as I am concerned if this is what they want to subject their children to then so be it.

And apparently, by the way, this Camp was shut down due to the outrage the film sparked.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

What I find most interesting about the entire documentary is that Ted Haggard revealed that he thinks the kid preacher was full of shit. That kid preacher thought he was channeling God. So did all the people who supported him. He claimed he felt like they wernt his words, but God was giving them to him.

Yet when he spoke to Haggard, Haggard asked him if he thought it was his content, or the fact that he was a cute kid, that drew in the crowds. He then told him to keep up the cute kid thing while he had it, and by the time he was 30 he would have good content.

Implying he believes the content doesnt come from God, but from himself.

[LibertyWorker]

YouTube - Brain Washing ( Jesus Camp ''Highlights'' ) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac)

I hope "to god", Christians on this forum denounce this type of behavior and indoctrination, :o

Teaching children any kind of religion is child abuse.

[Deborah K]

Give me a freakin break! :rolleyes: