TeaPartys against what happened in Pittsburgh

[Captain America]

Is this possible, these videos and seeing first had what happened is the most frighting things ive ever seen. This is more fighting than the Towers falling. This will happen in your state if we do nothing.

[LibertyEagle]

Have you seen this?


The G-20 Joint Information Center, which can be reached at 412-402-7630, issued this statement which explains exactly what is going on in the video:

The individuals involved in the 9/24/2009 arrest which has appeared online are law enforcement officers from a multi-agency tactical response team assigned to the security operations for the G20.

It is not unusual for tactical team members to wear camouflaged fatigues. The type of fatigues the officers wear designates their unit affiliation. Prior to the arrest, the officers observed this subject vandalizing a local business. Due to the hostile nature of the crowd, officer safety and the safety of the person under arrest, the subject was immediately removed from the area.


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2335833&postcount=90

[Captain America]

i didn't see that and if that's true i would say that's lawful and im glad they caught him. What about not letting citizens walk down the street or pushing those bikers. What about using tear gas on peaceful protesters and new sonic weapons that could cause hearing loss. How about the war drum beat they did so they couldn't hear the guy on the mic talking about why people have the liberty to walk down the road. i was at the first protest observing and the police provoked the black flag protesters. the constitution had zero authority during the G20 in Pittsburgh.

[JeNNiF00F00]

i didn't see that and if that's true i would say that's lawful and im glad they caught him. What about not letting citizens walk down the street or pushing those bikers. What about using tear gas on peaceful protesters and new sonic weapons that could cause hearing loss. How about the war drum beat they did so they couldn't hear the guy on the mic talking about why people have the liberty to walk down the road. i was at the first protest observing and the police provoked the black flag protesters. the constitution had zero authority during the G20 in Pittsburgh.

You weren't by chance wearing the captain america shield at the protest were you? lol

As for the protest, some of those guys are SOME OF US. What they are doing is their right, and it needs to be done. What do you propose happen? Sit on our asses while the G20 takes over? What happens when its too late? Its already too late imo. The g20 meetings shouldn't even be allowed on American Soil.

[erowe1]

Is this possible, these videos and seeing first had what happened is the most frighting things ive ever seen. This is more fighting than the Towers falling. This will happen in your state if we do nothing.

Sure, it's possible. But this kind of tea party won't have anywhere near the level of the organization, attendance, and publicity that the other ones have had, because the main force behind them was the GOP. And the GOP won't have anything to do with an anti-law enforcement tea party. It will be less noticed than the libertarian anti-war protests that have happened since Obama took office have been.

[Captain America]

You weren't by chance wearing the captain america shield at the protest were you? lol

As for the protest, some of those guys are SOME OF US. What they are doing is their right, and it needs to be done. What do you propose happen? Sit on our asses while the G20 takes over? What happens when its too late? Its already too late imo. The g20 meetings shouldn't even be allowed on American Soil.

I agree they shouldn't be aloud on American soil. No i was standing by that guy though, and thought to myself hey that's my shield. I don't think we should destory public property and if we really want to break some windows we should go to the local FED office since they are the source of the destruction of America.

[pcosmar]

Have you seen this?



Have you seen this.

YouTube - police accused of attempting to incite violence at spp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWbgnyUCC7M)

They admitted that they were COPS.
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=66de9807-d2f0-444e-903e-1c0ba64556de

Who was this guy that was whisked away? Has he spoken to anyone? The Press?
Does anyone there know him?

I for one, have questions. :(

[Captain America]

We have to do something. People could die from brown shirts inciting violence.

Beck should cover that last video and the G20 weapons and tactics. I would like to see where he is on this subject.

[pcosmar]

We have to do something. People could die from brown shirts inciting violence.


People will die. That is a given reality.
A lot of people are being Killed by police as it is.( there are many examples in the Civil Liberties Thread)
Several non-protesters were injured in this action. Innocent Citizens.

The only real question is, When will enough people fight back?
This genie is not going back in the bottle peacefully.

[GunnyFreedom]

Just because the snatch n grab vid has an explanation does not make the police behavior elsewhere acceptable. I researched that vid because I was getting sick of the kind of misinformation coming out claiming it was done by the military.

The reality we have to face though, is that the 'radical left' Marxist protests are violent, damage property, trashes a city. The 'radical right' protests are peaceful and clean.

Aligning ourselves publicly with violent vandals will not help our cause, even if some of our goals align. I will support to my death their right to free expression, and it's clear that they get WAY more coverage because they are violent. The G20 protesters had what, 1500 people, and got more coverage than the 1.5 million 9/12 march on DC.

That of course is an indictment against the media. But don't be tempted to violence to gain attention, as it can only hurt our agenda.

I for one will deplore the heavy handed police control, and then point out the disparity in coverage. But to stand shoulder to shoulder with a group that does millions of dollars in damage to private property every time they meet, and agitate for Marxist principles, may not be the best idea.

There are better ways to stand against the militarization of police, and against police abuses.

[pcosmar]

Just because the snatch n grab vid has an explanation does not make the police behavior elsewhere acceptable. I researched that vid because I was getting sick of the kind of misinformation coming out claiming it was done by the military.

The reality we have to face though, is that the 'radical left' Marxist protests are violent, damage property, trashes a city. The 'radical right' protests are peaceful and clean.

Aligning ourselves publicly with violent vandals will not help our cause, even if some of our goals align. I will support to my death their right to free expression, and it's clear that they get WAY more coverage because they are violent. The G20 protesters had what, 1500 people, and got more coverage than the 1.5 million 9/12 march on DC.

That of course is an indictment against the media. But don't be tempted to violence to gain attention, as it can only hurt our agenda.

I for one will deplore the heavy handed police control, and then point out the disparity in coverage. But to stand shoulder to shoulder with a group that does millions of dollars in damage to private property every time they meet, and agitate for Marxist principles, may not be the best idea.

There are better ways to stand against the militarization of police, and against police abuses.

I believe you are buying the propaganda. Though I am also sure that there are some violent radicals, past protests have been deliberately provoked to violence by paid actors.
As far as I know they have only been caught irrefutably on tape once., but there is evidence that other protests were incited by Government agents.
It was a known and documented part of COINTELPRO.
It is part of Government training in the School of the Americas.

Don't be too naive.

[Captain America]

We have to do something.

"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist; Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist; Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist; Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew; Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me."

[GunnyFreedom]

I have been a major opponent of police brutality since long before I heard of Ron Paul, but criminals do not make very sympathetic victims for the cause. Anybody who knows anything about me knows I am a rational realist, and that I buy NO propaganda, not even our own. What the police did here was sick and wrong, and deserves public attention -- but if we are going to take up the cause of police brutality as a movement, then we had best pick a victim that will not make 70% of America side with the cops.

It comes down to pure logistics. If we take a stance that wins us more enemies than allies, how does that help our nation?

This is not Nazi Germany. Yes the situation is nearly as dire, but it is different. Even if America collapses, we can rebuild -- but we won't have that opportunity if America believes that we are the ones who made her collapse.

Stand against this abuse, yes. Point out and demonstrate the evil that is police brutality and abuse of authority, yes. The goal must be to put an end to the insanity that leads to this garbage.

But to ignore the fact that perception of our movement will directly effect our success is unwise.

These G20 protesters should no way no how have been treated this way...but the truth is that the G20 protests have been violent and criminal for DECADES. That's why they stationed so many cops there to begin with.

Dumping gasoline on the anti-Pauler fire is not the best way to advance our movement. I'd love to help these kids regardless of ideology, but I'm not going to risk prison for a gang of thugs, and I do not encourage RPFs to risk damaging the movement for a gang of violent property destroying thugs either.

[Captain America]

I have been a major opponent of police brutality since long before I heard of Ron Paul, but criminals do not make very sympathetic victims for the cause. Anybody who knows anything about me knows I am a rational realist, and that I buy NO propaganda, not even our own. What the police did here was sick and wrong, and deserves public attention -- but if we are going to take up the cause of police brutality as a movement, then we had best pick a victim that will not make 70% of America side with the cops.

It comes down to pure logistics. If we take a stance that wins us more enemies than allies, how does that help our nation?

This is not Nazi Germany. Yes the situation is nearly as dire, but it is different. Even if America collapses, we can rebuild -- but we won't have that opportunity if America believes that we are the ones who made her collapse.

Stand against this abuse, yes. Point out and demonstrate the evil that is police brutality and abuse of authority, yes. The goal must be to put an end to the insanity that leads to this garbage.

But to ignore the fact that perception of our movement will directly effect our success is unwise.

These G20 protesters should no way no how have been treated this way...but the truth is that the G20 protests have been violent and criminal for DECADES. That's why they stationed so many cops there to begin with.

Dumping gasoline on the anti-Pauler fire is not the best way to advance our movement. I'd love to help these kids regardless of ideology, but I'm not going to risk prison for a gang of thugs, and I do not encourage RPFs to risk damaging the movement for a gang of violent property destroying thugs either.


agreed

[TGGRV]

Just because the snatch n grab vid has an explanation does not make the police behavior elsewhere acceptable. I researched that vid because I was getting sick of the kind of misinformation coming out claiming it was done by the military.

The reality we have to face though, is that the 'radical left' Marxist protests are violent, damage property, trashes a city. The 'radical right' protests are peaceful and clean.

Aligning ourselves publicly with violent vandals will not help our cause, even if some of our goals align. I will support to my death their right to free expression, and it's clear that they get WAY more coverage because they are violent. The G20 protesters had what, 1500 people, and got more coverage than the 1.5 million 9/12 march on DC.

That of course is an indictment against the media. But don't be tempted to violence to gain attention, as it can only hurt our agenda.

I for one will deplore the heavy handed police control, and then point out the disparity in coverage. But to stand shoulder to shoulder with a group that does millions of dollars in damage to private property every time they meet, and agitate for Marxist principles, may not be the best idea.

There are better ways to stand against the militarization of police, and against police abuses.
I agree with you. You have great points.

[TGGRV]

We have to do something.

"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist; Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist; Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist; Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew; Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me."

Ha, Alexandr Solzhenitsyn.

[pcosmar]

Ha, Alexandr Solzhenitsyn.

Ah, no.

Pastor Martin Niemöller from Germany.

[TGGRV]

Ah, no.

Pastor Martin Niemöller from Germany.

Yes, you're right. I just glanced over your post. Alexandr's quote is a bit different, but following the same pattern. :)

[levo]

I'm from Pittsburgh and I think I can help clear up some of the minor confusion. My account isn't perfect and its hard to get complete information, but hopefully this will help.

The violent protesters represent maybe 4 young individuals. Local news has the DA is pinning /all/ of the violent protest actions on a **single** individual, but this is probably inaccurate. I do not think these individuals represent the protesters at large. I'm not sure if the individuals responsible for the vandalism would describe themselves as Marxists, and I do not think Marx, were he alive today, would describe them as followers.

There were (conservatively) 4,000 and (optimistically) 8,000 protesters on the main, legal march. Most of these people were not Marxist or Anarchists, but simply concerned individuals from various points on the political spectrum, as well as representatives from various repressed minorities around the world. This protest was nonviolent and required no police action.

The police force for the G20 drew in officers from several east coast cities. There were also a small number of what I suspect to be national guardsmen present. Police were armed with rubber coated bullets, batons, and OC gas grenades ( a form of mace or pepper spray, but in aerosol grenade form ).

I still do not fully understand what happened on Friday. whathappenedatpitt.com is a group of students trying to organize a proper response to these events. Peaceful protesters, those attempting to exercise free speech, and young bystanders were beaten and arrested on their own doorsteps. So, you should all feel good knowing that you can oppose the police action form last Friday without having to side with vandals or evil radical left wing conspiracies.

.. hopefully my understanding of the situation is mostly correct.

[GunnyFreedom]

I still do not fully understand what happened on Friday. whathappenedatpitt.com is a group of students trying to organize a proper response to these events. Peaceful protesters, those attempting to exercise free speech, and young bystanders were beaten and arrested on their own doorsteps. So, you should all feel good knowing that you can oppose the police action form last Friday without having to side with vandals or evil radical left wing conspiracies.

Yes, these I would fully support. My only concern is not to make the thing about a kid who destroyed $10,000 in property. Stand up for these people 100%. That's who we need to get loud for. My above argument (taken ad absurdum) is don't use Dylan Kliebold to argue against banning guns. By all means, do use /good/ examples!

[BenIsForRon]

Yeah, I think if there were any violent people who weren't cops, they were so few people that we shouldn't lump them in with any group, anarchist, socialists, or whatever. There were very few instances of property destruction. I think, most importantly, future protesters must ostracize the violent ones right away, and try to prevent them from damaging property.

And Gunny, the 9/12 protests got WAY more coverage than the G20 protests. As a matter of fact, only Democracy Now and the independent internet sites really covered the G20.

[pcosmar]

Yes, these I would fully support. My only concern is not to make the thing about a kid who destroyed $10,000 in property. Stand up for these people 100%. That's who we need to get loud for. My above argument (taken ad absurdum) is don't use Dylan Kliebold to argue against banning guns. By all means, do use /good/ examples!

So has it been proven that ANY of the protesters caused property damage?
or is it just alleged?
Did the perps look like this?

http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/_/western_terror_states/police_agents_with_stones.jpe

Or something similar?

Those are police officers.
They were caught.
How many haven't been?