View Full Version : Patriot Act v. Cap & Trade

09-22-2009, 11:58 AM
Which do you think should be our primary focus (after Audit the Fed)-- The Patriot Act or Cap & Trade? Why?

09-22-2009, 12:01 PM
I'm torn. I wonder if the Patriot Act can be used to shut down activism on Cap & Trade. It could be a catch22.

09-22-2009, 12:02 PM
That's a tough one.

On the one hand the Patriot Act would do a lot to expose Obama and we could get more progressives to see through him..

On the other hand cap and trade is a really big deal that will affect everyone adversely and Republicans generally already agree with us.

I'd say fight the Patriot Act battle on the progressive front and fight the cap and trade battle on the Republican/Conservative front.

09-22-2009, 12:04 PM
On the third hand, I think it's important to get progressives to see through the scheme that is cap and trade...

Ron Paul favors a pollution tax, and most progressives have no problem with the idea of a pollution tax.

09-22-2009, 12:11 PM
It's a tough one, and I'm leaning toward the Patriot Act, simply because I'm more familiar with it and how it directly puts our rights in jeopardy...but then again, Dannno makes a good point.

The fight against the Patriot Act might be best taken on by the "progressives." And the fight against Cap n' Trade is certainly a cause the right-wing could easily take on--maybe Beck would be a good guy to push that. Perhaps Rachel Maddow would be good to push the fight against the Patriot Act--I hate Olbermann, but maybe he'd reach a wider audience. Hard to say.

09-22-2009, 12:20 PM
Cap 'n Trade has not yet been passed by the Senate, but it is coming up for a vote soon. If we do not push back quite a lot, it IS going to be passed and we will be in a world of hurt, much worse than we are now.

We still have a chance to stop it. But, we have to act quickly.

BTW, the C4L has a petition they're asking everyone to sign about Cap 'n Trade:

With Congress on the verge of passing a Cap and Trade scheme to hike taxes by $650 BILLION, create invasive new federal government powers and wipe out a million jobs, it's never been more important you and I stand up and voice our opposition.

That's why it is vital you sign this petition to your Senators DEMANDING they vote against HR 2454, the so-called Cap and Trade Bill.

Plus, we probably ought to be hounding our Senators with emails, phone calls and faxes, day and night, until they tell us that they are going to vote against this.

09-22-2009, 12:23 PM
cap and trade.. we need to fight this one..

they already passed the patriot act, its null and void anyway and most liberals are already on board.. we need to expose their new attack

09-22-2009, 12:23 PM
Cap 'n Trade has not yet been passed by the Senate, but it is coming up for a vote soon. If we do not push back quite a lot, it IS going to be passed and we will be in a world of hurt, much worse than we are now.

We still have a chance to stop it. But, we have to act quickly.

All right, you convinced me. I've written both my senators about it, Casey barely responded three weeks later, and Specter is all but MIA.

09-22-2009, 12:26 PM

dr. hfn
09-22-2009, 01:58 PM
Patriot Act

09-22-2009, 02:09 PM
Plans of attack:

Cap and Trade: Fight it tooth and nail. It will be a much easier battle because it hasn't been passed yet. If the liberals realize how much it helps the "big bad businessmen" that they hate so much, they won't support it.

PATRIOT Act: The provisions coming up will be renewed, we need to accept that. HOWEVER, that will give us an enormous opportunity to be a turncoat. We all need to be prepared to bring up Obama's support of the PATRIOT Act every single time he comes up in conversation. I am already doing my part, and my liberal friends are starting to dislike him.

09-22-2009, 03:24 PM
First, let me say that I'm coming from this from the perspective of a Constitutionalist in the most liberal state in the nation.

The way I see it is that VT has 3 very liberal representatives in Washington-- Bernie sanders, Patrick Leahy and Peter Welch. All three are committed to C & T. Most of the people here. The GOP has not been able to put up a viable contender for any of these seats in quite a long time. Our last Republican Senator was Jeffords who pulled an Arlen Specter on the party. Our state legislature has a Democrat supermajority. There are very Republican pockets in the state but no real advances can be made on any so-called conservative policy issues without getting more than a handful of the Dems and Progressives on board (we also have a bonafide Progressive party that actually has some influence here).

Now, I say all this because when I think about issues where we can actually pull support from the left (and therefore achieve something) Cap & Trade is a lost cause. The Tea Party people are sidetracked on health care right now but they will, I'm sure, jump back on C & T when it comes before the Senate. Will it make a difference? I really doubt it.

Neither of these 2 issues are easily winnable for us. The Patriot Act because what's done is done. C & T because the Three Stooges are practically captains on that ship. Now which issue can be used to drive a wedge in the left? The Patriot Act. There are those on the left (and Bernie Sanders, as well) who have always been vocal opponents. I'm not so sure that we can't (especially in blue states) have a much more realistic chance of at least putting a pipe in the gears of this Patriot Act provision renewal.

Personally, I think the last line of defense between a tyrannical federal government and free people lies on the state level. 30 some odd states are trying to pass State Sovereignty resolutions. VT C4L has drafted a preliminary resolution and are shopping it around for a sponsor. My own local legislators do not want to touch it with a 50 foot pole because they are defeatists and think it will never go anywhere. Or at least that's what they say. I think that by using the Patriot Act, federal food safety legislation and military data mining of children via No Child Left Behind we can sell the SSR to the lefties, primarily the Progressives.

This doesn't mean that I don't support fighting C & T, but there are dozens of lobbying organizations in this fight already. I have to wonder if it makes sense for us to utilize time, energy and scarce resources to work against C & T when so many people here in VT (and other blue states) support it.

09-22-2009, 03:32 PM
The PATRIOT act has already been passed and is happening now.

The Cap & Trade bill still has not been passed and if it is passed, it will be a lot harder to repeal it than if we just keep it from being passed in the first place.

I would think we would all be about stopping Cap & Trade first, since it is easier to stop it than it is to get it repealed. To repeal it, we would have to get another bill going and that takes a lot of time and effort. It's best to just stop it before it can get passed.

Once we stop Cap & Trade, then we still have time to get a bill going or find some other way to stop the PATRIOT act.

Cap & Trade is a very pressing issue and should be dealt with before it becomes law.

09-22-2009, 03:37 PM
I'd say Cap n Trade. It's easier to prevent than to cure.

09-22-2009, 03:53 PM
Cap & Trade. The Patriot Act, which is deeply entrenched, is currently a non-issue in Washington D.C., while Cap & Trade is still very much up for debate.

09-22-2009, 03:55 PM
You know that scene from the movie "The Deep", where one person drowns and it dragged back and revived by the other?

Yeah... I'm going to say Patriot act, because most people don't know what it does to us. The rights lost. Also, three of it's provisions are coming up for renewal.

As to Cap and Trade ("The Deep" tie in) - the more miserable people are, the more mortgages that are defaulted on because people are being squeezed, the physically colder (winter) and hotter (summer) they are because they can't afford their utility bills - well, the better for us in 2010 and 2012.

Kill the patient in order to save them.

And this is on top of the 4 additional taxes in the health care bill and the mandated 10% of peoples income to force them to buy health insurance.

When the domino's get stacked high enough, they will fall and we'll get our revolution. We'll be able to clean out the House and the Senate too!

Sure - we should make a stink about Cap and Trade too. Every little bit to get people pissed off helps!


09-22-2009, 04:04 PM
cap and trade.. we need to fight this one..

they already passed the patriot act, its null and void anyway and most liberals are already on board.. we need to expose their new attack

^ this

09-22-2009, 04:19 PM
depends on the people you're with.

taking that further, effective arguments against cap'n trade will vary along "left/right" lines.

from the "left" it is wrong because it is creating a new currency for the benefit of multinational corporations. unprecedented corporate welfare.

from the "right," it's all about the property rights issue, paranoia (babies make Co2), and government meddling in the free market.

09-22-2009, 04:25 PM
Now I know focus is important, but some people may wish to focus on Cap & Trade and others, the PATRIOT act. This is not to say those focusing on the PATRIOT act can't or shouldn't fill out petitions against Cap & Trade nor should those focusing on Cap & Trade neglect petitions against the PATRIOT act.

Shouldn't we just delegate a little responsibility and point people toward their areas of focus and interest? We are individuals here, and that is to our advantage. We can accomplish many simultaneous goals though the diversity and special abilities of our members.

I believe the purpose of these forums is to aid and guide our members in an effort to achieve the goals stated in our mission statement. (admin: If I'm incorrect, please let me know) Through the use of these forums, we should be able to coordinate our efforts in both of those directions to accomplish multiple tasks at the same time.

Our enemies are coordinated and diverse and have had a number of years to get their system organized. It is my opinion we are working hard to catch up with them but they are way ahead of us. They have their fingers in the educational system, the arts, the media and throughout the government. We need to join forces with all the others who are against what is happening to our country and somehow coordinate all of our efforts.

Is there an area with links to all of our associated 'liberty lovers' web sites who are not members in Liberty Forest forums? We should be able to contact and coordinate with them at a moments notice. From what I see right now, I would conclude our movement is rather scattered and without a clearly defined communications network.

I would think we can do both Cap & Trade and the PATRIOT act at the same time without losing our primary focus toward liberty.

09-22-2009, 04:40 PM
You betcha, Doc. :)

09-22-2009, 04:48 PM
I voted for Cap and Trade since the Senate will be voting on it very soon.

The Patriot Act isn't going anywhere. It'll be waiting for us. :p