View Full Version : Your Vote = Weapon of Mass Morality
LibertyWorker
09-19-2009, 01:28 PM
Please stop using you vote to force your morality on your fellow Citizens.
THE RIGHT: Abortion is a fact of life. You will never put that rabbit back in the hat.
THE LEFT: America has a culture of guns and gun ownership... Get over it.
THE RIGHT: Gay marriage. Stay the hell out of people’s private lives.
THE LEFT: Don’t use my schools to try and make our kids see the world though your eyes.
I could go on and on about issue after issue.
The only thing I should be passionate about when it comes to my government is Taxes and if the new road in my neighborhood will be one lane or two.
It should not be whether I can get enough people who are like minded to vote in a way so I can force my neighbor to live by my morale code.
Thank you for your time.
Abortion: you don't have the right to kill other people. And if you do so, anyway, you should be prosecuted.
As to gay marriage, I am opposed to it, but it would be best if the government weren't licensing any marriages in the first place. Government needs to get out of marriage entirely. But in the mean time, I generally agree with what Dr. Paul said in 2004: http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=590
LibertyWorker
09-19-2009, 02:23 PM
Abortion: you don't have the right to kill other people. And if you do so, anyway, you should be prosecuted.
So you will use the force of government to force people to see the world as you see it.
thank you for proving my point.
Please stop using you vote to force your morality on your fellow Citizens.
THE RIGHT: Abortion is a fact of life. You will never put that rabbit back in the hat.
THE LEFT: America has a culture of guns and gun ownership... Get over it.
THE RIGHT: Gay marriage. Stay the hell out of people’s private lives.
THE LEFT: Don’t use my schools to try and make our kids see the world though your eyes.
I could go on and on about issue after issue.
The only thing I should be passionate about when it comes to my government is Taxes and if the new road in my neighborhood will be one lane or two.
It should not be whether I can get enough people who are like minded to vote in a way so I can force my neighbor to live by my morale code.
Thank you for your time.
For the most part I would agree with everything except the 1st one. No one has the "right" to terminate the life of another innocent human life especially as a matter of convenience.
So you will use the force of government to force people to see the world as you see it.
Are you against rape? Oh, so you would use the government to force people to see the world as you see it?
thank you for proving my point.
What I've proven is that your philosophy is flawed. That is, unless you think that rape is okay (which obviously would be reprehensible).
So you will use the force of government to force people to see the world as you see it.
thank you for proving my point.
Pretty twisted argument there. The primary function of government is to protect our rights from those who would unjustly infringe upon those rights. Should we legalize murder, kidnapping, rape, theft? Far be it from anyone of us to impose our moral objections to murder, kidnapping, rape, theft upon someone else who might find it justified.
LibertyWorker
09-19-2009, 02:38 PM
For the most part I would agree with everything except the 1st one. No one has the "right" to terminate the life of another innocent human life especially as a matter of convenience.
My point is that you have every right to feel that way and you should go out into your community and teach people and help them to see your point of view on the matter .but don’t use government as a tool to force your opinion and morels on people you don’t even know.
My point is that you have every right to feel that way and you should go out into your community and teach people and help them to see your point of view on the matter .but don’t use government as a tool to force your opinion and morels on people you don’t even know.
I would agree with that if the actions do not cause death or serious harm to innocent life. Abortion is the forced termination (death/murder) of an innocent human life.
Oh, Israel
09-19-2009, 02:44 PM
"Yet even now," declares the Lord, "return to me with all your heart." Joel 2:12a
Flash
09-19-2009, 02:47 PM
THE RIGHT: Gay marriage. Stay the hell out of people’s private lives.
I don't know too much about this issue but I don't believe any religion should be forced to recognize any marriage they don't want to. Even though I think the indivdual states SHOULD recognize same sex marriage and give them the same rights of other married couples.
Dionysus
09-19-2009, 02:50 PM
The abortion issue is complicated. We can't take others' life, but when does life start? Personally, I feel it's at conception, when a unique set of complete genes is present. However, people try to use binary logic in the abortion issue, is it or isn't it a person? The answer can be only true or false in boolean logic. There exists a logic called fuzzy logic, which would allow the answer to be both true and false to different degrees. Late term fetuses are obviously more child/person like than right after conception. It's complicated. I say, error on the safe side unless the mother's life is in danger (really in danger), or it was rape or incest. But, I'm not saying I'm right, that's just how I feel. It's a complicated topic. I agree with the general idea that you can't legislate morality. You can't save people from themselves. Nobody was ever made rich, healthy, and successful by sin taxes.
LibertyWorker
09-19-2009, 02:51 PM
Are you against rape? Oh, so you would use the government to force people to see the world as you see it?
What I've proven is that your philosophy is flawed. That is, unless you think that rape is okay (which obviously would be reprehensible).
Rape is a crime.
Abortions are not.
saying an illegal act like rape is the same as a legal act of abortion.
Is like the left going from ” YOU LIE” = Racist
You’re a one trick pony
Original_Intent
09-19-2009, 02:59 PM
Please stop using you vote to force your morality on your fellow Citizens.
...
THE RIGHT: Gay marriage. Stay the hell out of people’s private lives.
...
Thank you for your time.
This one I have a problem with, and here is why. The vase majority of the Right are totally willing to stay out of two consenting adults private lives. Or for any number of consenting adults private lives if they want to havea big swingers party.
However marriage is not only a PRIVATE matter. In fact the whole point of gay marriage is they want PUBLIC recognition of their union. Certainly people have the right the express their opinion on rather certain unions should be recognized, especially as marriages which face it, are originally religious ceremonies.
Certainly gays should be able to get insurance, inherit each others stuff, etc just like a married couple. As far as adopting kids, I think adoption agencies have the right to set their own standards but if a gay couple can find someone who wants to give their kids up for adoption, or if a private adoption agency wants to work with gay couples - I personally feel for the kids but that is still probably something that is between the parent giving up the child and their feelings - not really my business.
The abortion issue is complicated. We can't take others' life, but when does life start? Personally, I feel it's at conception, when a unique set of complete genes is present. However, people try to use binary logic in the abortion issue, is it or isn't it a person? The answer can be only true or false in boolean logic. There exists a logic called fuzzy logic, which would allow the answer to be both true and false to different degrees. Late term fetuses are obviously more child/person like than right after conception. It's complicated. I say, error on the safe side unless the mother's life is in danger (really in danger), or it was rape or incest. But, I'm not saying I'm right, that's just how I feel. It's a complicated topic. I agree with the general idea that you can't legislate morality. You can't save people from themselves. Nobody was ever made rich, healthy, and successful by sin taxes.
I have come to accept that the abortion issue is so polarizing that neither side can have it all their way ignoring the others point of view. Right now the pro-abortion people pretty much have what they want, virtually unfettered access to abortions from conception to the moment before delivery.
Personally I am opposed to abortions and do not buy the "my body, my choice" argument b/c it completely disregards the body inside the womb but I understand that nothing I say will change the minds of the pro-abortion crowd. So, I propose a compromise; legal abortions during the 1st trimester but the 2nd and 3rd are completely off limits.
Original_Intent
09-19-2009, 03:02 PM
Rape is a crime.
Abortions are not.
saying an illegal act like rape is the same as a legal act of abortion.
Is like the left going from ” YOU LIE” = Racist
You’re a one trick pony
So if we pass a law that rape is OK then you have no problem with it? Since it would then be legal, and that is the only thing you seem to have against it.
Original_Intent
09-19-2009, 03:04 PM
I have come to accept that the abortion issue is so polarizing that neither side can have it all their way ignoring the others point of view. Right now the pro-abortion people pretty much have what they want, virtually unfettered access to abortions from conception to the moment before delivery.
Personally I am opposed to abortions and do not buy the "my body, my choice" argument b/c it completely disregards the body inside the womb but I understand that nothing I say will change the minds of the pro-abortion crowd. So, I propose a compromise; legal abortions during the 1st trimester but the 2nd and 3rd are completely off limits.
I think a better option is let each state decide. That way you will have states that recognize life from conception, you will have states that allow abortion up thru the baby being delivered. Then if it is a big enough deal, people can live where suits them best, or they can go to another state to obtain an abortion if they want.
Rape is a crime.
Abortions are not.
saying an illegal act like rape is the same as a legal act of abortion.
Is like the left going from ” YOU LIE” = Racist
You’re a one trick pony
Slavery and the rape of a slave was once legal too. Was it ok then?
In some middle eastern countries it is legal to kill a woman (honor killing) for adultery or conversion to another religion outside of Islam. Since it's legal is it ok?
Rape is a crime.
Abortions are not.
saying an illegal act like rape is the same as a legal act of abortion.
Is like the left going from ” YOU LIE” = Racist
You’re a one trick pony
Do you realize what you're doing? You're supporting --- perhaps inadvertently --- the belief that rights come from government, and that's a philosophy that leads to statism. Yes, rape is illegal, but if it wasn't would that somehow make it right? If we follow the line of logic you're using, you would have to answer in the affirmative in order to be consistent.
What is legal or illegal does not necessarily correlate to what is moral or immoral. And just because something is legal (like abortion), that doesn't mean that it should be legal.
I think a better option is let each state decide. That way you will have states that recognize life from conception, you will have states that allow abortion up thru the baby being delivered. Then if it is a big enough deal, people can live where suits them best, or they can go to another state to obtain an abortion if they want.
That reasoning would work for gay marriage or pot legalization but not abortion. The argument against abortion is that it is the termination of a human life (murder), which violates rights that are supposed to be protected by every level of government. Thus, the supreme court would inevitably have to get involved.
LibertyWorker
09-19-2009, 03:20 PM
Do you realize what you're doing? You're supporting --- perhaps inadvertently --- the belief that rights come from government, and that's a philosophy that leads to statism. Yes, rape is illegal, but if it wasn't would that somehow make it right? If we follow the line of logic you're using, you would have to answer in the affirmative in order to be consistent.
What is legal or illegal does not necessarily correlate to what is moral or immoral. And just because something is legal (like abortion), that doesn't mean that it should be legal.
I think you missed the point
Before government and the law people went around thinking things like rape, murder, theft were ok?
NO. they did not.
People should look to their families and churches synagogues and communities for their moral compass not government.
nor should government be used by families churches synagogues to push there morals on people that don't share there view of the world
slothman
09-19-2009, 03:22 PM
Abortion is a fact of life. You will never put that rabbit back in the hat.
America has a culture of guns and gun ownership... Get over it.
Gay marriage. Stay the hell out of people’s private lives.
Don’t use my schools to try and make our kids see the world though your eyes.
Abortion: I am against killing a fetus but a cell or two just after conception is not a fetus, IMHO.
I am also against "fetuside" even for rape and insest.
Guns: I am for legalizing all kinds of guns but I am also on the left.
Gay marriage: If the gov't gives rights to married couples then it should allow gay as well.
If it doesn't give abilities, such as taxes, then I am against it.
As for the last one can you give an example?
It doesn't quite make sense to me.
Do you realize what you're doing? You're supporting --- perhaps inadvertently --- the belief that rights come from government, and that's a philosophy that leads to statism.
Excellent point. Our rights do not come from government. Governments are set up to protect and maintain such rights against those wishing to steal it away. Abortion, murder, slavery is the theft of life and therefore unjust whether legal or not.
Flash
09-19-2009, 03:37 PM
As for the last one can you give an example?
It doesn't quite make sense to me.
I'm guessing he is talking about the immorality of Public Education & regulations upon homeschooling.
I think you missed the point
Before government and the law people went around thinking things like rape, murder, theft were ok?
NO. they did not.
In general, human societies have always had some type of government or other structural order, even if not a civil magistrate like we think of today.
And is a moral conviction that something like murder is wrong always enough to restrain the commission of the act? No. People are inclined to do evil to other people; law has the role of restraining those acts.
nor should government be used by families churches synagogues to push there morals on people that don't share there view of the world
You might make that argument generally, but not when someone's acts hurt another person.
LibertyWorker
09-19-2009, 04:36 PM
The point of my post was not to have it hijacked by the pro-life wing of RPF
All I was trying to get across is that if people keep voting on one trick issues as abortion, gun control, and so on we will never get anywhere be you left or right.
As much as people like to fear monger guns and abortion will stay legal for a long time
You have the right to feel however you like about abortion and to scream it from every mountain top if you like.
But that’s a far cry from waking up one day and telling every woman is this county if you get pregnant you will be forced to have that child no matter what.
As morally appetizing as that might sound to some people there will be an unforeseen down side to that way of thinking.
I do not like the idea of abortion.
But i don't like the idea of me making that choice for other people even less.
Kasado
09-19-2009, 04:38 PM
I would agree with that if the actions do not cause death or serious harm to innocent life. Abortion is the forced termination (death/murder) of an innocent human life.
Who is being forced? Is the Women, Man, Physician somehow being controlled to perform a terminations? Abortions through mechanical and chemical methods have been performed for many millinium, long before it became an issue recently.
You sound like the religious type and if so you would know that children are not innocent and born already with sin installed.
No one or thing wants to die but it happens every moment of every day. But, I will agree that the federal government should not be in the business of promoting or denying abortions. Like RP I believe it should be up to the state and local gov.
Who is being forced? Is the Women, Man, Physician somehow being controlled to perform a terminations? Abortions through mechanical and chemical methods have been performed for many millinium, long before it became an issue recently.
Slavery has been in practice for millennium long before it became an issue.
You sound like the religious type and if so you would know that children are not innocent and born already with sin installed.
I'm really not the "religious type". But hold up... WTF? Children are not innocent and born already with sin installed... So what??? That is justification to do what to them exactly?? Terminate their life? Btw, we are not a theocracy in this country. We are innocent until proven guilty.
No one or thing wants to die but it happens every moment of every day. But, I will agree that the federal government should not be in the business of promoting or denying abortions. Like RP I believe it should be up to the state and local gov.
You are right death is the ultimate end. But it is government's role to protect life, especially innocent life (yes that includes children).
The point of my post was not to have it hijacked by the pro-life wing of RPF
All I was trying to get across is that if people keep voting on one trick issues as abortion, gun control, and so on we will never get anywhere be you left or right.
As much as people like to fear monger guns and abortion will stay legal for a long time
You have the right to feel however you like about abortion and to scream it from every mountain top if you like.
But that’s a far cry from waking up one day and telling every woman is this county if you get pregnant you will be forced to have that child no matter what.
As morally appetizing as that might sound to some people there will be an unforeseen down side to that way of thinking.
I do not like the idea of abortion.
But i don't like the idea of me making that choice for other people even less.
Which is why we need a compromise. If a 6 month old fetus can survive as a premature baby then its abhorrent that it is legal to kill a 9 month baby right up until birth. That is f'n sick!
So how about the pro-abortion crowd get their way the 1st 4.5 months and the pro-life crowd get the last 4.5?
LibertyWorker
09-19-2009, 05:11 PM
Lets see i have never killed anyone in my whole life (yes that includes children)
Government has killed (shrug) the world will never know. i bet its a lot though.
I don't trust government to Protect life.
Lets see i have never killed anyone in my whole life (yes that includes children)
Government has killed (shrug) the world will never know. i bet its a lot though.
I don't trust government to Protect life.
That is the whole point of government! With out government your life most certainly would not be protected. I don't trust government either but that doesn't mean termination of life should be legal. Protecting the lives of its citizens is the primary role of a just government. I'm for limited government, not NO government at all.
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