Neo cons outraged that we wont be putting missiles on Russia's doorstep

[max]

What's with these neo-cons wanting to provoke Russia????

[georgiaboy]

link? or are you hearing it in the media/radio? I've been unplugged lately.

Not surprising, though. Typical "see the weak-on-defense Democrat president fail to ensure our national security and side with our enemies" mantra, correct?

It's absurd, really. US national defense means we put missiles in eastern Europe? Mystifying.

[FrankRep]

I seriously don't trust Russia.

Here's Why (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=2321626)

[max]

[QUOTE=georgiaboy;2321789]link? or are you hearing it in the media/radio? I've been unplugged lately.

QUOTE]

rush...hannitty...levin et al........so typical. They are siding with puppet regimes in east europe which were financed by arch lefty george soros

conservative ignoramuses are actually siding with soros!

[georgiaboy]

so Frank, assuming that the US foreign policy position is also not trusting of Russia, what should the US FedGov do?


BTW, was this unilateral for us (USA), or was this a quiet Cuban Missile Crisis in reverse?

[lx43]

I don't think we should have missles stationed in Europe, Japan, etc. While I don't trust the Russians I can understand why they don't want our missles on their borders. They lost 27 million people 60 years ago with a powerful country on their border. We should protect america not europe.

[Chieftain1776]

Eastern Europe Missile Shield is History. Neo-cons are NOT happy. (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=210505)

[FrankRep]

so Frank, assuming that the US foreign policy position is also not trusting of Russia, what should the US FedGov do?
I should clarify that I don't support NATO either. I'm open to opinions about the "best" solution.

[Dionysus]

Fake. Israel's going to attack Iran and Russia was just bought off. Watch the fake Neo-con outrage quickly disappear.

[kahless]

It is a missile defense shield to knock down both short range missiles that benefit the Europe and long range missiles capable of reaching the continental US. They should have continued talks doing this jointly with Russia as to not piss them off that we are using it against them.

This is not a Neocon issue since even Libertarians believe in self defense. If it was only to protect the EU I agree we should have nothing to do with it and they should pay for it themselves. But that is not the case since it is a national security issue.

[Imperial]

Actually, missile defense is here to stay.

DKos posted a story about this, defending obama against neo-cons.

What a constituency to pursue, eh?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/9/17/783530/-Obama-Administration-Revamps-Missile-Defense:-Leaner,-Meaner,-and-More-Realistic


If you like missile defense, you should like this program. It is going to put more military capability on station more quickly than the previous plan.

[max]

Fake. Israel's going to attack Iran and Russia was just bought off. Watch the fake Neo-con outrage quickly disappear.

israel attacks iran...

iran attacks us troops in afghan and iraq..

we get stuck in a major war and tea partiers go back to putting yellow ribbons everywhere as obama popularity skyrockets

[Dionysus]

israel attacks iran...

iran attacks us troops in afghan and iraq..

we get stuck in a major war and tea partiers go back to putting yellow ribbons everywhere as obama popularity skyrockets

You're prescient! They always destroy the economy before a big war. It's easier to get poor people to fight that way.

[Original_Intent]

You're prescient! They always destroy the economy before a big war. It's easier to get poor people to fight that way.

Free healthcare and burial benefits. Something we are all going to end up getting, I suspect.

[Bucjason]

I'm all for missile defense to protect our own borders, but I don't see how it's our responsibility to protect all of Europe from Russia . Most of those arrogant fucks don't like us anyways. Screw them.

Here's your new missile defense program Europe: Build your own damn missiles !

[YumYum]

Fake. Israel's going to attack Iran and Russia was just bought off. Watch the fake Neo-con outrage quickly disappear.

Iran has thousands of anti-aircraft missiles they bought from China, which will take out the majority of Israeli planes. I believe the untested missile defense system that was to be given to Europe will be given to Israel to deflect retaliation from Iran.

[TastyWheat]

I'm not totally up to speed on the missile defense shield but I'm guessing it's for the defense of other nations. It's ridiculous that we should be responsible for so many other developed nations. Now if we wanted such a thing to protect our own country then we just need to better outfit our naval ships. As it is I'm sure our ships could take out any fighter or bomber crossing the Atlantic or Pacific. If we want to put missile defense shields at our borders I have no problem with that though.

[ChooseLiberty]

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090915_misreading_iranian_nuclear_situation



israel attacks iran...

iran attacks us troops in afghan and iraq..

we get stuck in a major war and tea partiers go back to putting yellow ribbons everywhere as obama popularity skyrockets

[raiha]

How much would it cost?

[devil21]

Considering what appears to matter most to the average American, Iran wouldn't even have to attack US troops. It's been reported repeatedly that Iran has set up a shitload of missile batteries near the Strait of Hormuz. Drop a couple oil tankers, shut down the Strait and watch gas go to $10/gal practically overnight. THAT alone would be enough to bring out the flags and yellow ribbons again in support of an attack on Iran.

Hmm...wasn't DXO (leveraged oil long ETF) just shut down?

[rrcamp]

What scares me is that ever since this was announced, I've been reading articles in the US MSM stating that Poland and the Czech Republic are upset because they feel like we betrayed them.

While I can't speak for the Polish people, I can tell you this statement about the Czech Republic is complete bullshit; almost the entire population here was hardcore AGAINST this radar station. The only Czechs who feel betrayed are the handful of "conservative" politicians who sold out their people.

[Objectivist]

What's with these neo-cons wanting to provoke Russia????

Missiles? What kind of missiles? Defensive or Offensive?

[Objectivist]

This could mean that Raytheon has finished or updated their satellite systems. I'll sleep even better than I did last night knowing that much. I slept really, really well last night.

[max]

What scares me is that ever since this was announced, I've been reading articles in the US MSM stating that Poland and the Czech Republic are upset because they feel like we betrayed them.

While I can't speak for the Polish people, I can tell you this statement about the Czech Republic is complete bullshit; almost the entire population here was hardcore AGAINST this radar station. The only Czechs who feel betrayed are the handful of "conservative" politicians who sold out their people.

Czech and Poland...just like Ukraine and Georgia - are on George Soros payroll

[TGGRV]

Considering what appears to matter most to the average American, Iran wouldn't even have to attack US troops. It's been reported repeatedly that Iran has set up a shitload of missile batteries near the Strait of Hormuz. Drop a couple oil tankers, shut down the Strait and watch gas go to $10/gal practically overnight. THAT alone would be enough to bring out the flags and yellow ribbons again in support of an attack on Iran.

Hmm...wasn't DXO (leveraged oil long ETF) just shut down?

The US has enough oil for around 7 years if the whole economy would use American oil. Iran has virtually no economy besides selling oil which would lead to their people starving to death. Besides, it would be naive for them not to think they will get a war with the US for it.

[Cowlesy]

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090915_misreading_iranian_nuclear_situation

That article is a must-read on the situation.

I am cutting a few paragraphs out of it and pasting them here, but people should go read the full text to get all the nuances my cut/pastes leave out.


Moreover, the Israelis have Obama in a box. Obama promised them that if Israel did not take a military route, he would deliver them crippling sanctions against Iran. Why Obama made this promise — and he has never denied the Israeli claim that he did — is not fully clear. It did buy him some time, and perhaps he felt he could manage the Russians better than he has. Whatever Obama’s motivations, having failed to deliver, the Israelis can say that they have cooperated with the United States fully, so now they are free by the terms of their understanding with Washington to carry out strikes — something that would necessarily involve the United States.


As mentioned, the chances of the Russians imposing effective sanctions on Iran are nil. This would get them nothing. And if not cooperating on sanctions triggers an Israeli airstrike, so much the better. This would degrade and potentially even effectively eliminate Iran’s nuclear capability, which in the final analysis is not in Russia’s interest. It would further enrage the Islamic world at Israel. It would put the United States in the even more difficult position of having to support Israel in the face of this hostility. And from the Russian point of view, it would all come for free.


Given the foregoing, the United States would immediately get involved in such a conflict by engaging the Iranian navy, which in this case would consist of small boats with outboard motors dumping mines overboard. Such a conflict would be asymmetric warfare, naval style. Indeed, given that the Iranians would rapidly respond — and that the best way to stop them would be to destroy their vessels no matter how small before they have deployed — the only rational military process would be to strike Iranian boats and ships prior to an Israeli airstrike. Since Israel doesn’t have the ability to do that, the United States would be involved in any such conflict from the beginning. Given that, the United States might as well do the attacking. This would increase the probability of success dramatically, and paradoxically would dampen the regional reaction compared to a unilateral Israeli strike.

And in conclusion:


The current situation is not as dangerous as the Cuban Missile Crisis was, but it has this in common: Everyone thinks we are on a known roadmap, when in reality, one of the players — Israel — has the ability and interest to redraw the roadmap. Netanyahu has been signaling in many ways that he intends to do just this. Everyone seems to believe he won’t. We aren’t so sure.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

The US has enough oil for around 7 years if the whole economy would use American oil. Iran has virtually no economy besides selling oil which would lead to their people starving to death. Besides, it would be naive for them not to think they will get a war with the US for it.

7 years isn't a long time. Hell, it's already been 8 years since 9/11.

[TGGRV]

7 years isn't a long time. Hell, it's already been 8 years since 9/11.
Yes, but without imports, the Iranian population would starve. Without oil they can't pay for imports. Their economy is a huge joke. So they would start selling again.

[Cowlesy]

Sanctions are not going to hurt the Iranian Leadership. Sanctions are going to hurt the regular folks just trying to get by and make a living. If Iraq is used as an example, if the goal is to hurt the people and get them to turn on their leadership, it isn't going to happen. All the sanctions are going to do is make the people getting hurt hate the people imposing the sanctions, us. Seriously, can we make it any easier for bin Laden and co. to recruit and say the fat americans are hurting working people in Iran and starving children?

[amy31416]

Sanctions are not going to hurt the Iranian Leadership. Sanctions are going to hurt the regular folks just trying to get by and make a living. If Iraq is used as an example, if the goal is to hurt the people and get them to turn on their leadership, it isn't going to happen. All the sanctions are going to do is make the people getting hurt hate the people imposing the sanctions, us. Seriously, can we make it any easier for bin Laden and co. to recruit and say the fat americans are hurting working people in Iran and starving children?

^^^^^^^

Yes. This has always been my major problem with sanctions. Do you really think that Ahmedinejad is going to say to his people that the fact that they are starving is his fault? Of course not.

Someday some country is going to have the balls to have a sanction on the US--maybe it'll be China, who knows? Just one of the reasons that I'm okay with being a bit on the protectionist side with our economy, manufacturing and energy resources.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

Yes, but without imports, the Iranian population would starve. Without oil they can't pay for imports. Their economy is a huge joke. So they would start selling again.

Why would I want them to starve?

[Matt Collins]

It is a missile defense shield to knock down both short range missiles that benefit the Europe and long range missiles capable of reaching the continental US. They should have continued talks doing this jointly with Russia as to not piss them off that we are using it against them.

This is not a Neocon issue since even Libertarians believe in self defense. If it was only to protect the EU I agree we should have nothing to do with it and they should pay for it themselves. But that is not the case since it is a national security issue.Of course our government should protect The People against incoming ICBM's. However it does not need to be on foreign soil in order to do it.

We have a Navy that makes an acceptable platform for lobbing nukes, and also for missile defense. If we must have "forward deployed" missiles, then let the Navy handle it without having the Army or USAF occupying another country.

[devil21]

Yes, but without imports, the Iranian population would starve. Without oil they can't pay for imports. Their economy is a huge joke. So they would start selling again.

Their imports would come from China. Oil exports go to China. Russia would probably be involved too. I think that's why there's such a big fight going on over the oil lines running through the former soviet states. Iran doesn't *need* the Strait of Hormuz. Everybody else does though. Whether there would be a huge supply issue or not created by shutting down the Strait is beside the point. The oil traders alone would shoot the price through the roof overnight. We saw how easily they ran crude up to $150/bbl last year on little fundamental support. Imagine if there was a real reason to be concerned about oil...chaos.

[TastyWheat]

I also just heard Sean Hannity admit that Iran is not a threat to Poland or the Czech Republic, but we're kind of obligated to put in the missile defense shield, and changing our mind for whatever reason shows weakness. What a headcase.

[Objectivist]

Missiles? What kind of missiles? Defensive or Offensive?

I'll post it again.

[Bucjason]

Of course our government should protect The People against incoming ICBM's. However it does not need to be on foreign soil in order to do it.

We have a Navy that makes an acceptable platform for lobbing nukes, and also for missile defense. If we must have "forward deployed" missiles, then let the Navy handle it without having the Army or USAF occupying another country.

I agree with Matt. We aren't doing this becuase we NEED it for our defense, we do it because these European countries want us to , in order to protect THEM.

Well I have a question; what do these Euro-trash assholes ever do for us , besides talk shit about how horrible we are behind are backs?? Fuck them, I say...

Now, if they want to pay us money in order to protect them , then that's another story. We do have a large debt to pay off. Let's talk turkey....

[devil21]

I agree with Matt. We aren't doing this becuase we NEED it for our defense, we do it because these European countries want us to , in order to protect THEM.


I'd take that a step further. Replace "European countries" with "Bankers and NWO backers". Remember that the US Military has basically been turned into the enforcement arm of the international power elite. Protecting the US hasn't been a priority for a long time. Just look at our borders! Those European countries are being bullied and/or bribed for their cooperation. One might question how having foreign military bases in your country actually makes you safer? Sure, there may be some deterrent but it also makes your country a target if the foreign country gets into a conflict. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Poland is breathing a sigh of relief right now.

[Freedom 4 all]

I'm all for missile defense to protect our own borders, but I don't see how it's our responsibility to protect all of Europe from Russia . Most of those arrogant fucks don't like us anyways. Screw them.

Here's your new missile defense program Europe: Build your own damn missiles !

Socialized missiles for other countries?