PLEASE HELP! Need help with Neolib girl! AIM Conversation posted.

[TechnoGuyRob]

This is a conversation I've just had. She, from what I gather, is Neolibertarian (screen name changed for privacy).

What can a person say to people like this?


Robert (2:08:29 PM): Hey, Chalan.
Robert (2:08:42 PM): Did you hear about how a few days ago, Obama said he has no plans to pull out of Iraq by 2013?
Neolibertarian girl (2:08:55 PM): no i didnt
Robert (2:09:13 PM): Yep.
Robert (2:09:16 PM): Want sources?
Robert (2:09:20 PM): All the Democrats did, actually.
Robert (2:09:47 PM): http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/27/dems.debate.ap/index.html
Neolibertarian girl (2:09:49 PM): thats fine i'm ok with that
Robert (2:09:56 PM): You're okay with that?
Robert (2:10:05 PM): You do know the war's cost almost a trillion dollars now,
Robert (2:10:11 PM): Which has led to the following things:
Robert (2:12:23 PM):
Real estate collapse - house prices are now more expensive than ever. It's leading to more homelessness and a lack of activity in the once-big real estate market.
Dollar crisis - the US dollar is now worth less than the Canadian dollar. This means your money means less and you can buy less for the same amount of time you work.
Debt limit - congress is debating raising our debt limit yet again to almost ten trillion dollars, making us the country with the biggest debit by a factor of...9.5 trillion dollars
The United States is now spending almost 50% more than just six years ago. Why? The Iraq war. Where do you think we're getting this money from? Less than half of it is from taxes; the other part is debt: money we take from other countries and never pay back.
Robert (2:12:47 PM): There's also the fact that the Democrats promised to pull out of Iraq within just the past few months,
Robert (2:12:59 PM): And apparently by "promised to pull out" they mean "oh, within the next century or so."
Robert (2:13:27 PM): That is not fine, Chalan.
Robert (2:13:39 PM): You may be okay with that.
Robert (2:13:42 PM): But it's certainly not fine.
Neolibertarian girl (2:13:43 PM): it takes time... that country is fucked up
Robert (2:13:53 PM): Yes, and we've fucked it up more.
Robert (2:13:57 PM): At our expense.
Neolibertarian girl (2:14:28 PM): but what are we supposed to do leave a mess for them to clean up when they all don't get a long and no one else will helo them?
Neolibertarian girl (2:14:46 PM): that country will collapse
Neolibertarian girl (2:14:55 PM): there is no infrastructure
Robert (2:14:56 PM): It collapsed when we first got there in 2003, and it's collapsing even more, now.
Robert (2:15:32 PM): We don't have the resources to "help" a country like Iraq (which we're not doing):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_account_balance
Robert (2:15:35 PM): Take a look at that list.
Neolibertarian girl (2:15:39 PM): that's true, but what are they going to do if we aren't there have another dictator destroying millions of innocent lives?
Robert (2:15:58 PM): Guess why Saddam was in power?
Robert (2:16:03 PM): Look up the history of Iraq.
Robert (2:16:14 PM): We gave them weapons in the 50's, and have been ever since.
Robert (2:16:27 PM): Because they "helped" us back then.
Robert (2:16:52 PM): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_account_balance
Robert (2:16:59 PM): Where do you think the United States is?
Neolibertarian girl (2:17:15 PM): i know that, however under daddy bush he tried to get saddam out and it happened because of baby bush, but it happened we fucked it up and we have to do something about it
Neolibertarian girl (2:17:36 PM): the united states is on the continent of north america
Robert (2:17:45 PM): Have to do something about it? Like...bankrupt the country?
Robert (2:17:59 PM): The US dollar hasn't been this low, historically, in 36 years.
Robert (2:18:08 PM): And it's never faced this kind of decline in US history.
Neolibertarian girl (2:18:15 PM): so what
Neolibertarian girl (2:18:19 PM): things happen
Robert (2:18:21 PM): .....
Neolibertarian girl (2:18:32 PM): it wasnt my decision to do this
Robert (2:18:39 PM): It's your decision to stop it!
Robert (2:18:54 PM): Ok, look.
Neolibertarian girl (2:19:01 PM): no, because i am a compassionate person
Robert (2:19:05 PM): ....
Robert (2:19:07 PM): That's contradictory.
Neolibertarian girl (2:19:12 PM): how do you think it is in iraq right now?
Robert (2:19:14 PM): If you were compassionate, if you cared,
Neolibertarian girl (2:19:15 PM): it is hell
Robert (2:19:17 PM): You would stop it.
Neolibertarian girl (2:19:23 PM): no
Robert (2:19:24 PM): Yeah, worse than when we got there.
Neolibertarian girl (2:19:25 PM): i wouldnt
Robert (2:19:47 PM): Saddam killed a few thousand people a week, and didn't have national jurisdiction.
Robert (2:19:51 PM): Almost a million Iraqi's have now died.
Robert (2:19:54 PM): Due to us, not Saddam.
Neolibertarian girl (2:19:55 PM): i would establish a government with the people there not forcea democracy on them that doesnt work
Robert (2:20:14 PM): We've tried. Guess what happened last time, a few years ago? It didn't work.
Neolibertarian girl (2:20:36 PM): no... we forced them we didnt ask them we forced them
Robert (2:20:55 PM): Yes, and when we ask them, they say no;
Neolibertarian girl (2:21:04 PM): thats not true
Robert (2:21:05 PM): They're still a theocratic country.
Robert (2:21:15 PM): We can't force social change in matters of decades.
Neolibertarian girl (2:21:31 PM): i know that that is why i said it takes time
Robert (2:21:46 PM): "In September 2006, The Washington Post reported that the commander of the Marine forces in Iraq filed "an unusual secret report" concluding that the prospects for securing the Anbar province are dim, and that there is almost nothing the U.S. military can do to improve the political and social situation there."
Robert (2:21:52 PM): "Iraq was listed fourth on the 2006 Failed States Index compiled by the American Foreign Policy magazine and the Fund for Peace think-tank. The list was topped by Sudan.[90][91]

As of October 20 the U.S military announced that Operation Together Forward had failed to stem the tide of violence in Baghdad, and Shiite militants under al-Sadr seized several southern Iraq cities.[92]"
Neolibertarian girl (2:21:56 PM): if you dont agree with my political views thats fine i dont care but you wont change my mind
Robert (2:22:03 PM): There's nothing to agree.
Robert (2:22:06 PM): You can't disagree with facts.
Robert (2:22:09 PM): There's more and more violence.
Neolibertarian girl (2:22:10 PM): i have taken classes on this stff
Robert (2:22:14 PM): So have I.
Neolibertarian girl (2:22:18 PM): and i do know it well
Neolibertarian girl (2:22:34 PM): so go and educate someone who is clueless
Robert (2:22:42 PM): Look,
Robert (2:22:45 PM): How do you think we help?
Robert (2:22:46 PM): With money.
Robert (2:22:52 PM): If we don't have money, we can not help.
Robert (2:23:07 PM): We won't have any if we keep up like this until 2009, 2010, definitely not 2013.
Neolibertarian girl (2:23:13 PM): we will always have money because we are the biggest country ever
Robert (2:23:18 PM): ........
Neolibertarian girl (2:23:23 PM): we are the most powerful country
Robert (2:23:29 PM): That's what we keep telling ourselves, don't we?
Neolibertarian girl (2:23:29 PM): and we will have money
Robert (2:23:39 PM): Then why is China gaining on our economy four times as fast?
Robert (2:23:44 PM): China grew 12% economically last year.
Robert (2:23:47 PM): We grew 2%.
Neolibertarian girl (2:23:47 PM): i know
Robert (2:23:52 PM): Our dollar is plummeting.
Robert (2:23:55 PM): People can't buy houses.
Neolibertarian girl (2:24:05 PM): its because china doesnt get caught up in this
Robert (2:24:06 PM): China makes our items.
Robert (2:24:10 PM): If China decides to say:
Robert (2:24:15 PM): "Ok, no more exports to the US,"
Robert (2:24:22 PM): Well, let's just say that would not be good for you and me.
Robert (2:24:35 PM): We are broke; we're leeching off other countries, right now.
Neolibertarian girl (2:24:39 PM): ooh well and we can worry about that if ti happens
Robert (2:24:39 PM): In fact,
Neolibertarian girl (2:24:45 PM): but it wont
Robert (2:24:46 PM): No, we can't.
Neolibertarian girl (2:24:51 PM): so i have to go
Robert (2:24:59 PM): Because "if" it happens, we won't have any way to fix it.
Robert (2:25:02 PM): Eugh.
Robert (2:25:04 PM): Neocon.
Robert (2:25:06 PM): Bye.
Neolibertarian girl signed off at 2:25:20 PM.

[rodent]

This is a conversation I've just had. She, from what I gather, is Neolibertarian (screen name changed for privacy).

What can a person say to people like this?


See my thread on "How I converted neo-cons". The part where she says that other country will collapse -- you need to take the flier from the other thread I started and tell her OUR COUNTRY IS ABOUT TO COLLAPSE.

This is not a joke, this is not sensationalism. Our dollar is worth less than a Canadian dollar now and is about to be destroyed. This will harm countless millions of Americans, and we will not be able to continue the war on terror and fix those other countries.

Even if people believe we should be in the war on terror, they need to realize we have to scale back our ambitions fast before it all ends here.

[Lord Xar]

she doesn't seem very smart. If she ruled the country we'd go bankrupt in short order. Not only that, she is moved PURELY by the emotion the progagada machine has given her.

Everything you give her, she can't explain. She just waves it away as "oh, its okay. We have money" -- she is not politically aware or even a tad bit educated on economics or foreign policy. Is she aware of the constitution or that this country is a Republic?

I don't know. Its like if you say to someone... 2 + 2 = 4, the earth is round... and whenever you offer concrete rebuttals WHY they shouldn't vote for someone and they just say... "yeah, 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 can also equal 4" -- there is not much to do.

She is sucked into that whole Obama charismatic, man gonna save america mentality. She is too wrapped up in the surface things..... She believes that the democrates are "unique" and 'wonderful" and that to spend all your money to validate their 'freebie agendda' is okay.... cause she is compassionate.. Does this girl live at home? Does she have a job?

I heard a quote..

"If you are under 30 and not a liberal you have no heart. If you are over 30 and not a conservative, you have no brain."

Meaning, when we are young - we see the word in painted pictures... we are too young to know how the world works and the responsibilites and such.. when we get older, then we understand much better..

[joshdvm]

If you put you or her in a different color, it would make it a lot easier follow. Thanks.

[rodent]

she doesn't seem very smart. If she ruled the country we'd go bankrupt in short order. Not only that, she is moved PURELY by the emotion the progagada machine has given her.

Everything you give her, she can't explain. She just waves it away as "oh, its okay. We have money" -- she is not politically aware or even a tad bit educated on economics or foreign policy. Is she aware of the constitution or that this country is a Republic?

I don't know. Its like if you say to someone... 2 + 2 = 4, the earth is round... and whenever you offer concrete rebuttals WHY they shouldn't vote for someone and they just say... "yeah, 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 can also equal 4" -- there is not much to do.

She is sucked into that whole Obama charismatic, man gonna save america mentality. She is too wrapped up in the surface things..... She believes that the democrates are "unique" and 'wonderful" and that to spend all your money to validate their 'freebie agendda' is okay.... cause she is compassionate.. Does this girl live at home? Does she have a job?

I heard a quote..

"If you are under 30 and not a liberal you have no heart. If you are over 30 and not a conservative, you have no brain."

Meaning, when we are young - we see the word in painted pictures... we are too young to know how the world works and the responsibilites and such.. when we get older, then we understand much better..

That's a good point about her possibly not even having a job. People who don't deal with any sort of financial realities on a daily basis just don't have a clue or connection to what really makes this country tick.

[TheEvilDetector]

Neolibertarian girl (2:23:13 PM): we will always have money because we are the biggest country ever
Neolibertarian girl (2:23:23 PM): we are the most powerful country
Neolibertarian girl (2:23:29 PM): and we will have money

Female Sheeple.

[TechnoGuyRob]

She has a job. She just started college this year (University of California @ Berkeley), and she's been working on her own for a while (not sure what). Her parents got divorced and her mother couldn't support her from the little she got from welfare, so she had to work odd jobs.

[honkywill]

Neolibertarian girl (2:23:13 PM): we will always have money because we are the biggest country ever
Robert (2:23:18 PM): ........
Neolibertarian girl (2:23:23 PM): we are the most powerful country
Robert (2:23:29 PM): That's what we keep telling ourselves, don't we?
Neolibertarian girl (2:23:29 PM): and we will have money

Perhaps you should remind her to what has happened to the previous biggest and most powerfulest countries ever.

[Leslie Webb]

To neolib girl:
Polls say that most Iraqis, I believe 80%, want the United States forces to leave Iraq. The Iraqis don't want us there. Why should we stay?

[rodent]

She has a job. She just started college this year (University of California @ Berkeley), and she's been working on her own for a while (not sure what). Her parents got divorced and her mother couldn't support her from the little she got from welfare, so she had to work odd jobs.

Well, then try to frame it from this perspective: What if she didn't get that welfare when she was growing up? Then, think about the countless millions just like her who need a helping hand from the outside. They won't get the help they need. Even if they do, what will the small help they get buy them if the dollar isn't worth much?

She says, "We will always have money." Yes, she's right -- we will always have money. The question is not whether we have more money, but whether that money can actually buy anything. Remember, our dollar is only backed by faith. If the markets are telling us that we need more and more dollars to buy food, oil, clothes, and supplies, then our dollars are worth less.

How will single mothers get to work and pay for their children if gas is $6/gallon? What about feeding the kids? Cereal will be double the cost it is now.

My money is on the fact that this girl is probably a liberal arts student. They generally have no concept of governance, believe in collectivist politics, and are caught up in the popular sentiment that has more or less ruined California. I should know -- I left that horrible state.

Let's put it this way:

I moved to California as a liberal who loved gun control and big government. I left California as a staunch conservative pro-gun constitutionalist.

[trispear]

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it."--Thomas Paine.

That girl just didn't want to think. She already "knew" everything you told her and didn't want to think about very real future possibilites (China rising up, America going down) by replying that she'll think about it when it happens.

Sorry, I have 0 respect for the stupid and ignorant willing to stay that way so they don't have to hurt their brains thinking.

OTOH, you said Sadam killed a few Thousand people a week. I don't think that is correct, the number is not anywhere close to that high on average in his reign and only justifies Neocons having taken out Saddam even more.

[Lord Xar]

she is going to berkeley? well, that sorta says it all. She will come out of that school hating america and believing socialism is the best thing since bubble gum.

[TechnoGuyRob]

Thanks, guys. I'll try to talk some sense into her next time she's on.

[dircha]

This is a conversation I've just had. She, from what I gather, is Neolibertarian (screen name changed for privacy).

What can a person say to people like this?

A "neo-libertarian" supports using government to achieve international humanitarian goals (the spreading of libertarianism). In that sense they have much more in common with progressives - "liberals" - (as Hillary would describe herself) than neo-conservatives. For example, a neo-libertarian would support U.S. government intervention in Darfur; many neo-conservatives do not.

This individual is motivated by 1) a humanitarian concern for the Iraqi people as well as 2) a sense of corporate, national responsibility for their predicament, and believes that 3) we have a moral obligation to leverage the United States federal government to aid Iraqis.

I suggest you work the following angles, corresponding to 1-3 above.
1) Reaffirm her personal humanitarian concern for the Iraqi people.
2) Reaffirm her personal conviction that the nation was pushed into war in Iraq by a corrupt, deceitful, and manipulative administration without Iraqis' best interests at heart, having deeply wronged the Iraqi people. Reaffirm her belief in blaming the Iraq war on the Bush administration insiders.
3) State that despite our efforts, our presence in Iraq is making the situation worse, and the situation will continue to worsen if we remain. State that the Iraqi people do not want us in their country. State that the administration's primary interest in remaining in Iraqi is to secure private external control of its energy resources and to put in place a government to ensure this control. State that the situation can only be resolved by the Iraqi people and the help of its neighbors. State that Iraq's neighbors have a stake in the security and stability of a post-Saddam Iraq, but can only intervene if we leave. Reaffirm her belief that it is not our position to impose a government on the people of Iraq. Conclude that if we leave, Iraq will quickly stabilize through cooperation between the people of Iraq and its regional neighbors who have a stake in the security and stability of Iraq.

And remember that persuasion has very little to do with rational argument. It is very likely that she would continue to reject your arguments even if hers were demonstrated to be clearly factually inaccurate or illogical. The best you can do in many cases is to analyze per position, and as I have outlined above, paint a picture of reality about which she can feel good, and leave her an open invitation to assent to it.

The more you tell her that she is wrong, and the more that you pressure her, the less likely she will be to assent to the position you present.