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Vessol
09-13-2009, 07:00 PM
Were they friends when they frothed at the mouth and screamed for blood after 9/11?

Were they friends when they supported the loss of our constitutional rights and supported the warrent-less spying on our own citizens?

Were they friends when they reelected George Bush?

Were they friends when they laughed at Ron Paul and called him and his supporters domestic terrorists?

Were they friends when they said I and other anti-war protesters were unpatriotic and hated America?

Were they friends when my brother-in-law was got torn to pieces by shrapnel by a bomb in Iraq? They could only ship home a few pieces that they thought were him.

Were they friends when they blinked an eye at our welfare state and didn't give a shit about the economy, but loved to debate over and over about those evil gays wanting equal rights and abortions?

Since when the fuck do they become my "friends"? Oh because a liberal is in office. NOW they love the constitution, NOW they hate big government?

Why the fuck aren't they protesting against Obama EXPANDING the wars? Why the fuck aren't they protesting against Obama extending the state of emergency and the Patriot Act? Why the fuck aren't they protesting the act of rendition? Why were they not protesting the Banker Bailout?

These people are not out friends. They are a disposed of group who is meandering and wandering around. They don't give a shit about the Constitution except when them "death panels want to kill grandma".

If you're going to sit there and tell me that they are suddenly on the side of the Founding Fathers and the Constitution, then wake the fuck up. Just wait until fucking 2010 and 2012. We'll see how much they love freedom then.

Brian4Liberty
09-13-2009, 07:05 PM
Ron Paul is a Republican.

Vessol
09-13-2009, 07:06 PM
Ron Paul is a Republican.

Notice I put Republican/Neoconservatives

Flash
09-13-2009, 07:06 PM
Join a few Conservative forums and try to influence them. They are easier to win over than the Liberals, from what I have found. I already got a few in CT to send money to Schiff's campaign and even sign up to volunteer for his campaign.

Liberty Star
09-13-2009, 07:06 PM
Love the criminal, hate the crime : -)

To avoid typing again:


.. we have to have a tent big enough to welcome everyone as long there is willingness to change for better. Any one of us could have ended up as those we wish to banish, under the right set of conditions lol People (with all the various labels) are basically products of their environments and beauty of civil discourse is that we all learn from one another in the process to arrive at better conclusions.

Unrepentant neocons or opportunist, insincere media pundits or chameleons however cannot be allowed to lead or hijack liberty movement.


Nothing wrong with finding common grounds as long as core principles are not compromised and we don't end up again with a "small government" POTUS like Bush following identity labels.

I would think Libertarian values have some things in common with conservatives and some things in common with liberals; we should find common grounds wherever we can to grow and educate people across boundaries as long as in the process we don't become "them" instead of making them "us".

ItsTime
09-13-2009, 07:08 PM
Join a few Conservative forums and try to influence them. They are easier to win over than the Liberals, from what I have found. I already got a few in CT to send money to Schiff's campaign and even sign up to volunteer for his campaign.

Thats just common sense. Thats not allowed in this thread ;)


A lot of Ron Paul people are recovering neo-cons. I for one am.

shenlu54
09-13-2009, 07:09 PM
The idea of liberty means uniting people,not splitting people.Those people certainly can not change their minds in one night,but can be converted step by step.

This is the battle between the ideas,not the people.

Vessol
09-13-2009, 07:09 PM
"Nothing wrong with finding common grounds as long as core principles are not compromised"

Our core principles no longer are a non-interventionist foreign policy and individual freedoms?

Otherwise they have gone and far compromised our core principles.

Until I hear these pundits and these protesters bitching about the war and the violation of our individual rights. Then fuck 'em.

constituent
09-13-2009, 07:10 PM
vessol, save yourself the heartache. let them sail their "ship of fools."

Vessol
09-13-2009, 07:11 PM
Join a few Conservative forums and try to influence them. They are easier to win over than the Liberals, from what I have found. I already got a few in CT to send money to Schiff's campaign and even sign up to volunteer for his campaign.

I've actually found that Liberals are FAR more easy to lean towards Libertarianism then Conservatives. They already are more for individual rights then Conservatives and are more anti-war then Conservatives. The only thing you need to work on are economics..which neither are for.

2/3 for Liberals

0/3 for Conservatives

Deborah K
09-13-2009, 07:11 PM
Since when in the hell were Republicans our enemies????????!!!!! Have you forgotten that Ron Paul is a Republican?

Liberty Star
09-13-2009, 07:11 PM
Lets also not forget that Repulicans rule of last 8 years got us where we are, Bush/Cheney led Republican party's gift to America are massive debts, very badly conceived wars, massive exit of wealth out of US and election of Obama. We don't want to be those Republicans.

TCE
09-13-2009, 07:12 PM
Were they friends when they frothed at the mouth and screamed for blood after 9/11?

Were they friends when they supported the loss of our constitutional rights and supported the warrent-less spying on our own citizens?

Were they friends when they reelected George Bush?

Were they friends when they laughed at Ron Paul and called him and his supporters domestic terrorists?

Were they friends when they said I and other anti-war protesters were unpatriotic and hated America?

Were they friends when my brother-in-law was got torn to pieces by shrapnel by a bomb in Iraq? They could only ship home a few pieces that they thought were him.

Were they friends when they blinked an eye at our welfare state and didn't give a shit about the economy, but loved to debate over and over about those evil gays wanting equal rights and abortions?

Since when the fuck do they become my "friends"? Oh because a liberal is in office. NOW they love the constitution, NOW they hate big government?

Why the fuck aren't they protesting against Obama EXPANDING the wars? Why the fuck aren't they protesting against Obama extending the state of emergency and the Patriot Act? Why the fuck aren't they protesting the act of rendition? Why were they not protesting the Banker Bailout?

These people are not out friends. They are a disposed of group who is meandering and wandering around. They don't give a shit about the Constitution except when them "death panels want to kill grandma".

If you're going to sit there and tell me that they are suddenly on the side of the Founding Fathers and the Constitution, then wake the fuck up. Just wait until fucking 2010 and 2012. We'll see how much they love freedom then.

I pray nobody is saying that they are now our allies for life, they certainly are not. They will be allies for as long as they oppose expanding the government. What they are doing now, opposing all of the policies they held dear just one year ago, means that they are in agreement with us for now. They will likely revert back come 2012, but for now we must join together to try and stop some of what is coming out of the White House.

Hopefully one or two of their current positions will stay after 2012, but I won't hold my breath.

LibertyEagle
09-13-2009, 07:14 PM
Repulicans of last 8 years got us where we aree

No, not alone they didn't. "Where we are today" has come about through decades of unconstitutional laws and policies from BOTH sides of the aisle and a lack of accountability demanded by WE THE PEOPLE.

Vessol
09-13-2009, 07:14 PM
Since when in the hell were Republicans our enemies????????!!!!! Have you forgotten that Ron Paul is a Republican?

Notice that I put Republican/NeoConservatives.

NeoConservatives ran the Republican party and still do and always will.

If you honestly think Ron, Rand and Schiff will change the entire party, I want what you're smoking. Yes, I love all 3. But I'm not delusional.

TCE
09-13-2009, 07:16 PM
No, not alone they didn't. "Where we are today" has come about through decades of unconstitutional laws and policies from BOTH sides of the aisle and a lack of accountability demanded by the populace.

Exactly!

Had we had a Constitutional government from the get go, Bush wouldn't have been able to do 1/10th of the things he did. People would notice if he grew the size of government to double its size. The truth is that he didn't. He used what was already in place and expanded it. To say that the last eight years are responsible for all of our hardships is being dangerously short-sighted.

Liberty Star
09-13-2009, 07:18 PM
No, not alone they didn't. "Where we are today" has come about through decades of unconstitutional laws and policies from BOTH sides of the aisle and a lack of accountability demanded by WE THE PEOPLE.

In historic sense you're right but there is no denying that massive damage was done in both foreign and domestic affairs as a result of those 8 years, during which much of the Republican party went along with "trust the President" mindset. If some of the same people are suddenly angry now, we should cultivate them to join libertarian movement but we don't need to follow them or allow them to lead us.

Deborah K
09-13-2009, 07:19 PM
Notice that I put Republican/NeoConservatives.

NeoConservatives ran the Republican party and still do and always will.

If you honestly think Ron, Rand and Schiff will change the entire party, I want what you're smoking. Yes, I love all 3. But I'm not delusional.

NO, you don't want what I'm smoking - you couldn't handle it. :p j/k

I'm not that idealistic, but I will say that people are waking up and it isn't the left that's waking up as will be noted by the tea parties, the townhall meetings, and the march yesterday. They are ripe for the picking. And I'm not talking about nit-picking - which is what is happening on this forum.

LibertyEagle
09-13-2009, 07:20 PM
In historic sense you're right but there is no denying that massive damage was done in both foreign and domestic affairs as a result of those 8 years, during which much of the Republican party went along with "trust the President" mindset. If some of the same people are suddenly angry now, we should cultivate them to join libertarian values but we don't need to follow them or allow them to lead us.

Agreed, but declaring frickin' war against them isn't going to get us anywhere either. This is not a club. We do not own the principles of liberty.

Vessol
09-13-2009, 07:20 PM
Exactly!

Had we had a Constitutional government from the get go, Bush wouldn't have been able to do 1/10th of the things he did. People would notice if he grew the size of government to double its size. The truth is that he didn't. He used what was already in place and expanded it. To say that the last eight years are responsible for all of our hardships is being dangerously short-sighted.

Of course. Both sides have eroded our Constitution for many many years.

You have to be blind to suddenly think that one side has had a change of heart and is going to change.

You can say all you want how Fox and all Republicans following them are "waking-up", but look at who's talking for them. The exact same pundits and politicians who helped bring us to this. If you honestly think 2010 and 2012 are going to bring change, it's time to wake the fuck up.

They are just going to keep playing this game, and I'll be damned if I throw myself into their lot and call them "friends".


Agreed, but declaring frickin' war against them isn't going to get us anywhere either. This is not a club. We do not own the principles of liberty.

No, you're right, we don't.

But these people don't give a flying shit about liberty. We're idiots to think they do.

TCE
09-13-2009, 07:20 PM
Notice that I put Republican/NeoConservatives.

NeoConservatives ran the Republican party and still do and always will.

If you honestly think Ron, Rand and Schiff will change the entire party, I want what you're smoking. Yes, I love all 3. But I'm not delusional.

I believe I originally heard this from a Ron Paul Republican, but I will re-post it here since it is relevant:

If Liberty lovers capture three or four Senate seats, they can control the Senate. Reason being, on the controversial issues, it will be impossible to pass anything with 60 votes, leaving them to be the ones down the middle. Both parties will be forced to pander to those few Senators in order to get anything passed.

Think Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins in the current environment. If both of them always joined the Republicans, the Democrats would find themselves in a never-ending filibuster. Being that they are willing to vote with the Democrats on some issues, policies get enacted.

So all we need are a few liberty lovers in the Senate. As for the House, thirty or forty would probably be needed.

Vessol
09-13-2009, 07:26 PM
I believe I originally heard this from a Ron Paul Republican, but I will re-post it here since it is relevant:

If Liberty lovers capture three or four Senate seats, they can control the Senate. Reason being, on the controversial issues, it will be impossible to pass anything with 60 votes, leaving them to be the ones down the middle. Both parties will be forced to pander to those few Senators in order to get anything passed.

Think Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins in the current environment. If both of them always joined the Republicans, the Democrats would find themselves in a never-ending filibuster. Being that they are willing to vote with the Democrats on some issues, policies get enacted.

So all we need are a few liberty lovers in the Senate. As for the House, thirty or forty would probably be needed.

Bit optimistic, but I can see the reasoning in that.

Sorry, the way things are going, the last thing I am is optimistic. Who do you think all these angry Republican voters are going to vote for? Sure as hell isn't going to be Rand or Schiff. They probably don't even know who they are. The MSM which is pretty much their brains is guiding them to the exact people whom helped bring us here.

We will never regain our Republic.

LibertyEagle
09-13-2009, 07:28 PM
We will never regain our Republic.

If you've given up, then feel free to leave. This forum is for activists who have not given up.


Forum Mission Statement

Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this forum is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22

TCE
09-13-2009, 07:30 PM
Bit optimistic, but I can see the reasoning in that.

Sorry, the way things are going, the last thing I am is optimistic. Who do you think all these angry Republican voters are going to vote for? Sure as hell isn't going to be Rand or Schiff. They probably don't even know who they are. The MSM which is pretty much their brains is guiding them to the exact people whom helped bring us here.

We will never regain our Republic.

Well, if there are that many, then it becomes a realistic possibility.

And it is easy to be pessimistic. Well, it will be if they win their respective primaries. People see "R" and "D," few see principles. If we can push them to general, their chances are good. The MSM comment is right on.

Some here, and I think more than that, expect the downfall of the dollar to be the crossroads.

Vessol
09-13-2009, 07:30 PM
If you've given up, then see ya. Bye Bye. This forum is for activists who have not given up.

I haven't. I'm just being realistic and probably a bit too pessemistic. Read the rest of my post. They are working against us. Unless we get some platform that can reach them..

Liberty Star
09-13-2009, 07:31 PM
Agreed, but declaring frickin' war against them isn't going to get us anywhere either. This is not a club. We do not own the principles of liberty.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that here.

This post addresses same points, I think we should welcome new blood while at the same time should keep in view that some opportunist MSM networks talking heads may be chameleons who change color with the season and look at their track record and current masters before jumping on any wagon that stops in front of us.


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2314060&postcount=5

Vessol
09-13-2009, 07:32 PM
Some here, and I think more than that, expect the downfall of the dollar to be the crossroads.

This. I believe is our biggest chance. We'll have to be swift though. Both sides will try to capitalize on it by blaming each other. People are dumb enough to not know it is both.

catdd
09-13-2009, 07:37 PM
"What they are doing now, opposing all of the policies they held dear just one year ago, means that they are in agreement with us for now."

The enemies of our enemies are our friends - for now. But that doesn't mean we should start taking warm showers in the wee hours of the morning with them.
This little co-op will last until the neocons decide who their new champion will be... and I promise you it won't be Ron Paul.

Liberty Star
09-13-2009, 07:38 PM
This threads headline is bit inaccurate though, it should have said "Bush/Cheney Republicans/Neocons". Even if a growing minority, RP and many other libertarians are also Republicans.

tonesforjonesbones
09-13-2009, 07:38 PM
Glenn Beck is working on converting people. How many ..how many republicans are saying these days that it's not a party issue but a big government issue..I know MANY around here who are saying that.

When half of this forum loves liberty more than they hate the republicans, maybe we can move forward. Tones

TCE
09-13-2009, 07:40 PM
"What they are doing now, opposing all of the policies they held dear just one year ago, means that they are in agreement with us for now."

The enemies of our enemies are our friends - for now. But that doesn't mean we should start taking warm showers in the wee hours of the morning with them.
This little co-op will last until the neocons decide who their new champion will be... and I promise you it won't be Ron Paul.

That is correct. In 2012, the Democrats will likely be fighting the big bad Republicans and we will agree more with them. That is the way of Washington.

Vessol
09-13-2009, 07:40 PM
"What they are doing now, opposing all of the policies they held dear just one year ago, means that they are in agreement with us for now."

The enemies of our enemies are our friends - for now. But that doesn't mean we should start taking warm showers in the wee hours of the morning with them.
This little co-op will last until the neocons decide who their new champion will be... and I promise you it won't be Ron Paul.

If we can use them to our advantage, how? This is what I'm wondering.

TCE
09-13-2009, 07:43 PM
If we can use them to our advantage, how? This is what I'm wondering.

To run a bunch of "Republicans" in the general election. The disaffected will gravitate to anyone who isn't a "Democrat."

Vessol
09-13-2009, 07:44 PM
To run a bunch of "Republicans" in the general election. The disaffected will gravitate to anyone who isn't a "Democrat."

The problem is that the MSM won't herd the sheep to our "Republicans", but only their "Republicans".

It's hard to compete with the sheep rancher who has a whole pack of dogs for his sheep, when you only have one or two, no matter how talented those sheep dogs are.

catdd
09-13-2009, 07:47 PM
If we can use them to our advantage, how? This is what I'm wondering.

Well right now we need them to counter obamacare.

TCE
09-13-2009, 07:47 PM
The problem is that the MSM won't herd the sheep to our "Republicans", but only their "Republicans".

It's hard to compete with the sheep rancher who has a whole pack of dogs for his sheep, when you only have one or two, no matter how talented those sheep dogs are.

It's rare that people split-ticket vote, or vote for some from each party. On election night, if the economy is still horrible and Obama's approval rating is low enough, a great many voters will vote "R" no matter who it is. If we place some "R's" on the general election ticket, we can expect some reasonable success. Fox generally doesn't say "vote for these Republicans, and the rest vote Democrat." They usually say "vote Republican." The latter is a message this movement can take advantage of.

Vessol
09-13-2009, 07:51 PM
It's rare that people split-ticket vote, or vote for some from each party. On election night, if the economy is still horrible and Obama's approval rating is low enough, a great many voters will vote "R" no matter who it is. If we place some "R's" on the general election ticket, we can expect some reasonable success. Fox generally doesn't say "vote for these Republicans, and the rest vote Democrat." They usually say "vote Republican." The latter is a message this movement can take advantage of.

So basically throw enough in there so that some will get the chance of being elected? Primitive, but perhaps effective. Problem will be when its Republican up against Republican...with a 98% incumbency rate..yeah.

MsDoodahs
09-13-2009, 07:54 PM
It's rare that people split-ticket vote, or vote for some from each party. On election night, if the economy is still horrible and Obama's approval rating is low enough, a great many voters will vote "R" no matter who it is. If we place some "R's" on the general election ticket, we can expect some reasonable success. Fox generally doesn't say "vote for these Republicans, and the rest vote Democrat." They usually say "vote Republican." The latter is a message this movement can take advantage of.

Exactly! This is the way to get LOTS OF LIBERTY CANDIDATES into LOCAL OFFICES.

I am NOT kidding.

This is the way to go, right here.

MsDoodahs
09-13-2009, 07:55 PM
So basically throw enough in there so that some will get the chance of being elected? Primitive, but perhaps effective. Problem will be when its Republican up against Republican...with a 98% incumbency rate..yeah.

Every journey starts with a SINGLE STEP.

:)

TCE
09-13-2009, 07:57 PM
So basically throw enough in there so that some will get the chance of being elected? Primitive, but perhaps effective. Problem will be when its Republican up against Republican...with a 98% incumbency rate..yeah.

There are always open seats. In 2010 more than any other year, there are over 60 freshmen Democrats (House members) whom are vulnerable for re-election since most of them won by slim margins in Republican districts. The battles in those districts, and in some Senate races, will be who wins the primary. It's not time to give up yet pre-dollar collapse, but post-dollar collapse we all need to be ready.

tonesforjonesbones
09-13-2009, 07:59 PM
Yes I was reading tonight that it is expected the GOP will take seats in the double digits. Much as you dislike the republicans, we need a balance of power. tones

LibertyEagle
09-13-2009, 08:00 PM
Yes I was reading tonight that it is expected the GOP will take seats in the double digits. Much as you dislike the republicans, we need a balance of power. tones

Tones, a balance of power has nothing to do with the political party someone is in. It has to do with ideology. Remember that Obama's policies are very much like Bush's. There is very little difference, even though they come from different political parties.

TCE
09-13-2009, 08:02 PM
Exactly! This is the way to get LOTS OF LIBERTY CANDIDATES into LOCAL OFFICES.

I am NOT kidding.

This is the way to go, right here.

Alright MsDoodahs quoted me and said I was right! I shall remember September 13, 2009 forever.

Tones: It's better than what we have now, no doubt. Just think what would happen if the Republicans had two more neo-cons in the Senate, everything would filibustered or passed as watered down crap.

LE: As long as the Republicans remain in the minority, it looks like they're going to be "defenders of the Constitution." I would gladly take two or three more of these Constitution fueled Republicans at the moment...until 2012.

Liberty Star
09-13-2009, 08:02 PM
Yes I was reading tonight that it is expected the GOP will take seats in the double digits. Much as you dislike the republicans, we need a balance of power. tones

If we use that as a criterion for taking sides and chosing partners, we sould have marched with Dems in 2008 when they were slated to take the White House and the House and the Senate -- all thanks to current Republican party's policies results :)



Tones, a balance of power has nothing to do with the political party someone is in. It has to do with ideology. Remember that Obama's policies are very much like Bush's. There is very little difference, even though they come from different political parties.

Well put.
Not much difference between the two parties in fact, just different likes for spending habits.

constituent
09-13-2009, 08:04 PM
Glenn Beck is working on converting people. How many ..how many republicans are saying these days that it's not a party issue but a big government issue..I know MANY around here who are saying that.


Oh heavens no, the nineties live again.

LibertyEagle
09-13-2009, 08:08 PM
LE: As long as the Republicans remain in the minority, it looks like they're going to be "defenders of the Constitution." I would gladly take two or three more of these Constitution fueled Republicans at the moment...until 2012.

I would gladly take a whole lot of Constitution-fueled congressmen; regardless of party. My only point is that just because they are a Republican, does not mean they are "Constitution-fueled". Keep in mind that those same Republicans who are up there right now are the same ones that passed the Patriot Act with such glee, tossed out habeas corpus, ran our national debt to an all time high, vastly increased the size of government, including the welfare state, etc.

TCE
09-13-2009, 08:14 PM
I would gladly take a whole lot of Constitution-fueled congressmen; regardless of party. My only point is that just because they are a Republican, does not mean they are "Constitution-fueled". Keep in mind that those same Republicans who are up there right now are the same ones that passed the Patriot Act with such glee, tossed out habeas corpus, ran our national debt to an all time high, vastly increased the size of government, including the welfare state, etc.

When an entire party, in this case the Republican party, signs on to HR 1207, I have hope for the moment. When an entire party joins together to oppose the Stimulus package, I have hope for the moment. When an entire party, except for eight members, bands together to oppose Cap and Trade, I have hope for the moment.

While they have done bad in the past, and will likely do the Constitution no favors come 2012, for now they are on the correct side, ours. I pray no member will forget what Bush and the Republicans did as some have forgotten what Clinton did in the 90's. My point is, right now, they are opposing expanding the government. You are correct, their reasons are not ones of the Constitution, but we don't have the luxury to not support them, at least until 2011/2013. In the mean time, if it weren't for them, we would be more socialist than Europe, and for that, I am thankful.

angelatc
09-13-2009, 08:15 PM
If you've given up, then feel free to leave. This forum is for activists who have not given up.



Thank you for saying that!

KAYA
09-13-2009, 08:30 PM
Bit optimistic, but I can see the reasoning in that.

Sorry, the way things are going, the last thing I am is optimistic. Who do you think all these angry Republican voters are going to vote for? Sure as hell isn't going to be Rand or Schiff. They probably don't even know who they are. The MSM which is pretty much their brains is guiding them to the exact people whom helped bring us here.

We will never regain our Republic.

To the contrary. I believe the tea party vote will overwhelmingly go to Rand Paul.

Vessol
09-13-2009, 08:42 PM
Thank you for saying that!

I rebutted..