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tron paul
09-11-2009, 07:13 PM
...and then you win!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/08/activists-tea-party-movement-better-voice-gop/


Using a dozen social networking sites to mobilize constituents opposed to big-government spending, the grassroots movement has taken on issues far beyond taxes to protest President Obama's sweeping agenda. And by all appearances, its efforts have not gone unnoticed.

Cristina Corbin

FOXNews.com

Tuesday, September 08, 2009 (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/08/activists-tea-party-movement-better-voice-gop/)

They claim to be a grassroots movement, but critics call them astro-turf. In either case, the Tea Party movement is quickly shaking off its "greenness" to become a force that some coalition members contend is more effective than the Republican Party.

"This movement has done more to give conservatives a voice than the GOP has in the past eight years," said Dana Loesch, a conservative radio talk show host and member of the Nationwide Tea Party Coalition. "Republicans have been following the Tea Party's lead since February."

"I think it's fair to say this is not a Republican-sponsored movement," said Brendan Steinhauser,an organizer who described supporters as "conservatives, independents, and libertarians" concerned over the "size and scope of the government."

Tea Partiers got their start last fall as a disorganized bunch of disaffected voters who were furious about the Bush administration's Wall Street bailout. Then, Steinhauser said, these opponents of excessive government spending were pushed over the edge by President Obama's call for a $787 billion stimulus.

Using a dozen social networking sites to mobilize constituents opposed to big-government spending, the movement took root in February after a group of individuals used Twitter to react to CNBC on-air editor Rick Santelli's "rant," in which he accused the government of "promoting bad behavior" in regard to the Homeowners Affordability and Stability Plan, and raised the idea of a "Chicago Tea Party."

Since then, the movement has taken on issues far beyond taxes and spending, and has found it is able to mobilize mass responses in short order.

...


At first, Tea Partiers relied heavily upon social networking sites like Twitter, Facebook, and Ning to organize rallies quickly and efficiently and to raise money in all 50 states. But the movement is now spearheaded by an alliance of several conservative groups -- including FreedomWorks, Tea Party Patriots, Resistnet.com and the National Taxpayers Union.

Light
09-11-2009, 07:23 PM
Yes, because most of the powerful GOP are neocons, and neocons simply only care about beliefs that keep them in power, not so much actually believing in them.

The people in grassroots that are tied to the tea parties actually do hold values and beliefs, and have a vested interest in changing the country. The GOP elites simply care about power and lining their own pockets.

Working Poor
09-11-2009, 08:41 PM
Looks like some bikers are getting in on TPs too....

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/09/10/bikers-hold-tea-party/?test=latestnews

September 10, 2009 - 11:42 AM | by: David Lewkowict

Hundreds of bikers from all over the southeastern United States converged on a suburban Atlanta Harley Davidson dealership to have a 'tea party'.

The crowd revved their engines and the speeches revved the crowd. Themes including health-care, taxes, immigration and the Obama administration's "socialist agenda" were prevalent.

Julianne Thompson, State Director of the Georgia Tea Party Patriots, says only in America can citizens gather to tell their government "enough is enough." She says the American people want, " lower taxes, less spending and more freedom."

The nearly 750 mile ride, that will take these riders from Roswell, GA to Washington DC, will conclude with a tea party rally on Capitol Hill. Nearly 100 thousand people are expected in DC for Saturday's event.

The ride started in Tallahassee, FL and will make stops in Charlotte, NC and Richmond, VA.

angelatc
09-11-2009, 08:41 PM
I think there's an element of astroturf there. They've got at least 2 big buses, a musical act, Joe The Plumber, plus a bunch of speakers....not to mention the equipment and staff to assemble the show.

I have to admit, one of my first thoughts was "Who is paying for this?"

Athan
09-11-2009, 08:55 PM
Still, I agree that the gop shot itself to much in the ass and foot to lead the Tea Party.
Its like a lot of Americans just got up and said "thats it! Fuck both of them!"

About fucking time. :D

UnReconstructed
09-11-2009, 09:03 PM
the tea parties are the gop.

tron paul
09-11-2009, 09:11 PM
You can see who is behind the TEA Party Express right here:

http://www.teapartyexpress.org/about/index.html

Even arch-leftist Lindsay Beyerstein (a smarter version of Rachel Maddow) knows who is owns the two buses and won't call them Astroturf: BusBank, a charter company run by a Republican.
(http://majikthise.typepad.com/majikthise_/2009/09/tea-bagger-bus-company-sued-over-blaze-that-killed-23-seniors.html)


912dc.org lists the CFL, YAL, ATR, ACU, etc as "co-sponsors."

If you want to see Obama's Astroturf Express, that's a bus of a another color (http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/08/tea-party-patriots-greet-obama-s.html):
http://thedanashow.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/picture-32.png?w=597&h=447

foofighter20x
09-11-2009, 10:19 PM
So sad the GOP co-opted our deal. :\

angelatc
09-11-2009, 10:30 PM
Still, I agree that the gop shot itself to much in the ass and foot to lead the Tea Party.
Its like a lot of Americans just got up and said "thats it! Fuck both of them!"

About fucking time. :D

Yes, that did happen. But somebody with an agenda and a brain has hijacked it, somewhat. The messages from the professional productions are now as much about worshipping war as they are anti-spending.

The crowd doesn't respond fervently, like they do when Ron Paul speaks though. That's why it absolutely kills me that C4L didn't make this movement their own early on. Fiscal responsibility starts with Ron Paul.

But they didn't.

I don't blame the GOP - they saw a crowd that wanted leadership and they seized the opportunity. That's what leaders do.

angelatc
09-11-2009, 10:50 PM
You can see who is behind the TEA Party Express right here:

http://www.teapartyexpress.org/about/index.html

Even arch-leftist Lindsay Beyerstein (a smarter version of Rachel Maddow) knows who is owns the two buses and won't call them Astroturf: BusBank, a charter company run by a Republican.
(http://majikthise.typepad.com/majikthise_/2009/09/tea-bagger-bus-company-sued-over-blaze-that-killed-23-seniors.html)


912dc.org lists the CFL, YAL, ATR, ACU, etc as "co-sponsors."

If you want to see Obama's Astroturf Express,

The big money is coming from Our Country Deserves Better (http://www.ourcountrydeservesbetter.com/), a PAC that shares board members with Move America Forward, a pro-war PAC.

OCDB: Howard Kaloogian, Sal Russo, Deborah Johns, Mark Williams, Lloyd Marcus, Joe Wierzbicki, Kelly S. Eustis, Levi Russell, Betty Presley

MAF: Howard Kaloogian, Catherine Moy , Debbie Lee, Sal Russo, Lew Uhler, (Deborah Johns was their Director - not sure if she still is.)

Light
09-11-2009, 11:30 PM
Hmmm so the neocons have (or trying to) take over the Tea Party Movement. Its for this reason, that people here must be active and try stop these co-opt attempts.

If anyone is going to the 9/12 DC event be sure to boo any congressman that voted for the bailouts, and anyone who talks about fiscal responsibility. Heck, even shout out "You lie." I am sure they will get a kick out of it.

nate895
09-11-2009, 11:35 PM
That's like saying you smell better than a field of cow manure these days. I haven't heard what the Republicans have had to say as an official party from even their Congressional leaders, let alone the RNC. The GOP is basically voting however they think will keep them their office, and that means listening to the grassroots for a while, and not even adopting official party positions.

cheapseats
09-12-2009, 12:26 AM
Yes, because most of the powerful GOP are neocons, and neocons simply only care about beliefs that keep them in power, not so much actually believing in them.

Which is why it makes zero sense for Libertarians to run as Republicans. The GOP should be nowhere but in the dog house after the Bush/Cheney debacle but, noooo, the same people who decry the two-party stranglehold say they MUST run as Republicans in order to win.

Peek-A-Boo Principles, that's what I call THAT.




The people in grassroots that are tied to the tea parties actually do hold values and beliefs, and have a vested interest in changing the country.

It is unwise to attribute beliefs, virtues, character traits et al. to people you don't know. Blind allegiance and magical thinking feature prominently in our Troubles.




The GOP elites simply care about power and lining their own pockets.

Are we pretending that an Elite is not developing amongst Libertarians?

cheapseats
09-12-2009, 12:32 AM
Still, I agree that the gop shot itself to much in the ass and foot to lead the Tea Party.
Its like a lot of Americans just got up and said "thats it! Fuck both of them!"

About fucking time. :D

Exactly so.

Which is why it makes zero sense for Libertarians to run as Republicans. Not only is it moral capitulation, it is inefficient. Just THINK how much time will be wasted clarifying that So-and-So isn't THAT kind of Republican but THIS kind of Republican.

Pauls' Revere
09-12-2009, 12:32 AM
Witness the GOP death spiral!

(wait)...I apologize.

LOL

LittleLightShining
09-12-2009, 04:03 AM
Which is why it makes zero sense for Libertarians to run as Republicans. The GOP should be nowhere but in the dog house after the Bush/Cheney debacle but, noooo, the same people who decry the two-party stranglehold say they MUST run as Republicans in order to win.

Peek-A-Boo Principles, that's what I call THAT.




Exactly so.

Which is why it makes zero sense for Libertarians to run as Republicans. Not only is it moral capitulation, it is inefficient. Just THINK how much time will be wasted clarifying that So-and-So isn't THAT kind of Republican but THIS kind of Republican.The irony hasn't been lost on me.

Light
09-12-2009, 07:39 AM
The irony hasn't been lost on me.

Apparently, the poster doesn't realize that he is an elitist himself.

HOLLYWOOD
09-12-2009, 07:43 AM
C-SPAN is covering the TEA PARTY right now with a reporter from the Washington POST (liberal slant).

Marginalizing a bit... we all need to call in... there's some poor communicators on the air.

http://www.c-span.org/homepage.asp?Cat=Series&Code=WJE&ShowVidNum=6&Rot_Cat_CD=WJ&Rot_HT=205&Rot_WD

KAYA
09-12-2009, 07:50 AM
I think there's an element of astroturf there. They've got at least 2 big buses, a musical act, Joe The Plumber, plus a bunch of speakers....not to mention the equipment and staff to assemble the show.

I have to admit, one of my first thoughts was "Who is paying for this?"

That doesn't make it astroturf.

KAYA
09-12-2009, 07:52 AM
the tea parties are the gop.
wrong. Are you aware that C4L is cosponsoring the 9/12 march?

pacelli
09-12-2009, 08:31 AM
So sad the GOP co-opted our deal. :\


I agree, very smart of them. As long as people here continue believe this is giving us some form of credit, we are going to lose big time in 2012. Lets just remember that NONE OF THESE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE TEA PARTIES WOULD EVEN MENTION RON PAUL'S NAME DURING THE CAMPAIGN.

Do not be fooled!!!!

A. Havnes
09-12-2009, 09:51 AM
I agree, very smart of them. As long as people here continue believe this is giving us some form of credit, we are going to lose big time in 2012. Lets just remember that NONE OF THESE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE TEA PARTIES WOULD EVEN MENTION RON PAUL'S NAME DURING THE CAMPAIGN.

Do not be fooled!!!!

I agree. I'd wager most of them glorify war while slamming the spending going on. Don't they know that they can't get what they want and still have enough money to run our counterproductive, overseas Empire?

angelatc
09-12-2009, 09:53 AM
Exactly so.

Which is why it makes zero sense for Libertarians to run as Republicans. Not only is it moral capitulation, it is inefficient. Just THINK how much time will be wasted clarifying that So-and-So isn't THAT kind of Republican but THIS kind of Republican.

I mean, who needs to actually win elections, right?

angelatc
09-12-2009, 10:03 AM
wrong. Are you aware that C4L is cosponsoring the 9/12 march?

They donated money, then immediately scheduled their Valley Forge meeting for the very next week, knowing full well that most C4L members couldn't afford to do both. It's one of the dumbest things I've seen them do.

I attended a Tea Party Express Rally last week. The crowd was very receptive to the Ron Paul signs that were there, but the people on the stage were cheerleaders for big war.

The massive amount of money it takes to move these people across the country indicates to me that it is indeed being financed by some special interest. The performers, Joe the Plumber, the stage hands, the drivers, none of those people are working for free.

You can disagree, that's fine. But you haven't convinced me that I'm wrong.

tremendoustie
09-12-2009, 10:09 AM
Which is why it makes zero sense for Libertarians to run as Republicans. The GOP should be nowhere but in the dog house after the Bush/Cheney debacle but, noooo, the same people who decry the two-party stranglehold say they MUST run as Republicans in order to win.

Peek-A-Boo Principles, that's what I call THAT.





It is unwise to attribute beliefs, virtues, character traits et al. to people you don't know. Blind allegiance and magical thinking feature prominently in our Troubles.





Are we pretending that an Elite is not developing amongst Libertarians?


It makes sense to run as whatever gives you the best chance of winning, while, of course, being sure to not compromise principles.

KAYA
09-12-2009, 10:10 AM
They donated money, then immediately scheduled their Valley Forge meeting for the very next week, knowing full well that most C4L members couldn't afford to do both. It's one of the dumbest things I've seen them do.

I attended a Tea Party Express Rally last week. The crowd was very receptive to the Ron Paul signs that were there, but the people on the stage were cheerleaders for big war.

The massive amount of money it takes to move these people across the country indicates to me that it is indeed being financed by some special interest. The performers, Joe the Plumber, the stage hands, the drivers, none of those people are working for free.

You can disagree, that's fine. But you haven't convinced me that I'm wrong.

So what?

This movement is about protesting big government. That attracts a lot of people. If you have a problem with the neo-cons getting involved then it is our responsibility as libertarians to stand up and get involved to express our voice not just sitting down and complaining (not saying that you are not involved b/c obviously you are).

I have been active with my local tea party group too and it has been an extremely fertile ground in spreading the audit/end the fed massage. I understand your frustration with certain aspects of this movement but don't give up. The R3volution continues!

cheapseats
09-12-2009, 10:15 AM
I mean, who needs to actually win elections, right?

The ends justify the means, right? Certainly, that speaks to "modern" Republicanism.

The "wins" of Libertarians masking as Republicans, self-described non-sheeple posing in wolves' clothing, is not so impressive that it rationalizes the-ends-justify-the-means rationalization.

angelatc
09-12-2009, 10:25 AM
So what?

This movement is about protesting big government. That attracts a lot of people. If you have a problem with the neo-cons getting involved then it is our responsibility as libertarians to stand up and get involved to express our voice not just sitting down and complaining (not saying that you are not involved b/c obviously you are).

I have been active with my local tea party group too and it has been an extremely fertile ground in spreading the audit/end the fed massage. I understand your frustration with certain aspects of this movement but don't give up. The R3volution continues!


That's the thing! I know it's continuing, but because we don't have leadership at the top, the people are lining up behind the status quo and as a result I don't think anything will change.

I don't have any objection to the neocons getting involved. We can't grow the movement without including people from all factions, but I do think their leadership is very counter-productive to our goals.

It's so frustrating to see. People in our crowd cheered and applauded the messages of freedom and small government. Even though the speakers were trying to use Afghanistan and Iraq as applause-getters, the crowd simply didn't respond. That gave me proof that freedom *is* very popular, but if we don't have anybody at the top they'll follow somebody else, and the neocons are banking on that.

angelatc
09-12-2009, 10:26 AM
The ends justify the means, right? Certainly, that speaks to "modern" Republicanism.

The "wins" of Libertarians masking as Republicans, self-described non-sheeple posing in wolves' clothing, is not so impressive that it rationalizes the-ends-justify-the-means rationalization.

Right! I mean, why bother with actually winning elections?

KAYA
09-12-2009, 10:33 AM
That's the thing! I know it's continuing, but because we don't have leadership at the top, the people are lining up behind the status quo and as a result I don't think anything will change.

I don't have any objection to the neocons getting involved. We can't grow the movement without including people from all factions, but I do think their leadership is very counter-productive to our goals.

It's so frustrating to see. People in our crowd cheered and applauded the messages of freedom and small government. Even though the speakers were trying to use Afghanistan and Iraq as applause-getters, the crowd simply didn't respond. That gave me proof that freedom *is* very popular, but if we don't have anybody at the top they'll follow somebody else, and the neocons are banking on that.

Oh yeah, I would definitely agree with that. Outside of Ron Paul, leadership to represent this movement is lacking, no doubt. But the hearts and minds of the people are evolving toward libertarian ideals and that is a beautiful thing.

JamesButabi
09-12-2009, 10:42 AM
So whos representing CFL in Washington on the speakers list?

KAYA
09-12-2009, 10:44 AM
So whos representing CFL in Washington on the speakers list?

John Tate. http://www.campaignforliberty.com/index.php#25093

cheapseats
09-12-2009, 10:46 AM
It makes sense to run as whatever gives you the best chance of winning, while, of course, being sure to not compromise principles.

I am arguing that getting in bed with Republicans -- who remain largely unapologetic AND unpunished for the Bush/Cheney Uber Fiasco -- and that AGAIN validating the two-party stranglehold are premier compromises of principles.

Impasse, agree to disagree. If it gets to be foxhole time, I know that we are on the same side. Good enough, eh?

angelatc
09-12-2009, 10:50 AM
I am arguing that getting in bed with Republicans -- who remain largely unapologetic AND unpunished for the Bush/Cheney Uber Fiasco -- and that AGAIN validating the two-party stranglehold are premier compromises of principles.

Impasse, agree to disagree. If it gets to be foxhole time, I know that we are on the same side. Good enough, eh?

Politics in America is about winning power through elections.

The Republicans were punished for the Bush/Cheney years. Voters left the party in droves and gave all 3 branches to the other party. That's all you're ever going to get.

cheapseats
09-12-2009, 10:53 AM
Right! I mean, why bother with actually winning elections?

And I will repeat that the Win-Loss record of purported non-sheeple who don the collective wolf mantle does NOT recommend the strategy.

Impasse, agree to disagree. If it gets to be foxhole time, I recognize us to be on the same side. Good enough.

But mark my words, the Republicans WILL screw y'all over. In the spirit of birds fly/babies cry/people die/liars lie, it's what they DO.

cheapseats
09-12-2009, 10:55 AM
Politics in America is about winning power through elections.

The Republicans were punished for the Bush/Cheney years. Voters left the party in droves and gave all 3 branches to the other party. That's all you're ever going to get.

Karl Rove is a "trusted" political analyst, for fuck's sake. Donald Rumsfeld was offered a chair at STANFORD UNIVERSITY. Boy George is gearin' up fer the Speaking Circuit.

Wake up and smell the Starbucks . . . politics and power in America are first, foremost, lastly and intensely about MONEY.

KramerDSP
09-12-2009, 11:12 AM
But mark my words, the Republicans WILL screw y'all over. In the spirit of birds fly/babies cry/people die/liars lie, it's what they DO.

I gotta agree with this. The Tea Party movement has been co-opted in the form of very sophisticated videos, famous musical people, Joe the Plumber (as others have said before), and the like. The people attending the movement are mostly genuine, but the folks organizing the movement ? I am not nearly as sure their intentions are genuine. I'm content with supporting some of the themes espoused at the "new" Tea Parties, but I hope to god the crowd starts booing when war issues are talked about. I also hope the people who voted for the bailouts are booed.

It's hypocritical otherwise, IMHO.

angelatc
09-12-2009, 11:13 AM
Karl Rove is a "trusted" political analyst, for fuck's sake. Donald Rumsfeld was offered a chair at STANFORD UNIVERSITY. Boy George is gearin' up fer the Speaking Circuit.

Wake up and smell the Starbucks . . . politics and power in America are first, foremost, lastly and intensely about MONEY.

Using money to win elections, and using elections to win money. But you're fooling yourself if you think that politics is not every bit as much about power as it is money. They're both addicting aphrodisiacs. Wishing it weren't true won't make it go away.

My point stands. There's no reason to even bother with politics if your goal isn't to win elections. The ethical high ground doesn't get you TV time and the pay is lousy.

Karl Rove, as despicable and amoral as he is, is a successful political strategist. His willingness to literally dig through the garbage of his opponents is the very reason that he achieved the political successes that landed him in front of the camera. Lee Atwater, Reagan's guy, made Rove look like an amateur though.

If you're not in it to win, you won't. It's that simple.

angelatc
09-12-2009, 11:17 AM
I gotta agree with this. The Tea Party movement has been co-opted in the form of very sophisticated videos, famous musical people, Joe the Plumber (as others have said before), and the like. The people attending the movement are mostly genuine, but the folks organizing the movement ? I am not nearly as sure their intentions are genuine. I'm content with supporting some of the themes espoused at the "new" Tea Parties, but I hope to god the crowd starts booing when war issues are talked about. I also hope the people who voted for the bailouts are booed.

It's hypocritical otherwise, IMHO.

That's why I wish the C4L had worked intensely on getting us to march with them in Washington today. We're not there to ramp up the dissent by reminding the crowds about TARP and the bailouts, and so it remains controlled.

KramerDSP
09-12-2009, 11:21 AM
that's why i wish the c4l had worked intensely on getting us to march with them in washington today. We're not there to ramp up the dissent by reminding the crowds about tarp and the bailouts, and so it remains controlled.

+1776

HOLLYWOOD
09-12-2009, 11:22 AM
angelatc (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=198) <=== +2 CFL priorities are skewed... this needed to be a major participation CFL

I see FOX NEWS has one of their 'RINGERS', Indiana Congressman Mike PENCE, the GOP Inner Circle Ultra NEOCON and AIPAC Lapdog, is on their Agenda list for TV appearances.

All "Dressed-Down" for the TEA Party Protester look and the "PRESS SHOTS" with the sheeple in the background.

The people should be yelling this HiJackin Hypocrite Fascist off the National Mall.
http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee332/McLieberman/057.jpg

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee332/McLieberman/060.jpg

max
09-12-2009, 11:23 AM
political strategist. His willingness to literally dig through the garbage of his opponents is the very reason that he achieved the political successes that landed him in front of the camera. Lee Atwater, Reagan's guy, made Rove look like an amateur though.

If you're not in it to win, you won't. It's that simple.

thats why we never win...too many pointy-head intellectuals in our movement (including Ron Paul himself) who fail to understand that you can only win by playing nasty. "He's cathcin on" ads and disertations on Austrian economics are a total waste of time if you want to win the sheep vote. Thats why Ron couldnt even win NH...and it's why Rand may lose Kentucky.

Hopefully, Schiff will be a little nastier.

Liberty Star
09-12-2009, 11:23 AM
These tea parties are doomed to fail if they didn't distance them selves from this man who is allegedly funding them at least in part:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=209765


If this is true, this TP movemnet has been cleverly highjacked by CZ/aipac types.

cheapseats
09-12-2009, 11:24 AM
Using money to win elections, and using elections to win money. But you're fooling yourself if you think that politics is not every bit as much about power as it is money. They're both addicting aphrodisiacs. Wishing it weren't true won't make it go away.

I am not known for Magical Thinking. Libertarians are.

Money = Power

"Money to get power, power to protect money." -- House of Medici




My point stands. There's no reason to even bother with politics if your goal isn't to win elections. The ethical high ground doesn't get you TV time and the pay is lousy.

Your are correct, TeeVee time and Big Bucks do not speak to ethical high ground.





Karl Rove, as despicable and amoral as he is, is a successful political strategist. His willingness to literally dig through the garbage of his opponents is the very reason that he achieved the political successes that landed him in front of the camera. Lee Atwater, Reagan's guy, made Rove look like an amateur though.

Karl Rove is despicable. Therefore, in my world, the people who pay him to pontificate are despicable. EZPZ.




If you're not in it to win, you won't. It's that simple.

I would again draw attention to the LOUSY election-day results of non-sheeple in wolfwear. Election-day results are kinda key to the winning-is-everything argument.

Of all the evils in politics, Libertarianism is among the Lessers. Why the shitty showing election after election after election? I advise you to look also into your own ranks at who is really in American Politics to win what.


WHOEVER SET 9/12 FOR THIS DEMONSTRATION, THE DAY AFTER 9/11 AND THE FIRST WEEKEND AFTER SUMMER, IS CONTROLLED OPPOSITION OR NOT VERY SMART.

http://twitter.com/MindOfMo

cheapseats
09-12-2009, 11:32 AM
thats why we never win...too many pointy-head intellectuals in our movement (including Ron Paul himself) who fail to understand that you can only win by playing nasty. "He's cathcin on" ads and disertations on Austrian economics are a total waste of time if you want to win the sheep vote. Thats why Ron couldnt even win NH...and it's why Rand may lose Kentucky.

Hopefully, Schiff will be a little nastier.

Just so we're clear, ye of the animosity toward women, I am ALL for fighting fire with fire.

I "merely" think that anyone who would run as a Republican at this juncture is either compromising significant principles, or they are "merely" Republican.

Sarge
09-12-2009, 12:22 PM
They are just saying 1.5 million there per ABC.

I hope another 1.5 get out the door there today. Shut down every street so DC wakes up.