Facebook argument I just had

[1000-points-of-fright]

So my friend posts this link about micro-loans.
YouTube - cnn - microlending - grameen bank "third world country banking" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkpXEPFPT2o&eurl=http://www.facebook.com/home.php%3Fref%3Dhome&feature=player_embedded#t=256)

And this chick, let's call her Dude's Wife, and her husband, let's call him Dude comment about what a great story it is. I also comment positively... using sarcasm.

Me: How can this be?? Everyone knows that free market capitalism doesn't work!! Only government central planning can lift people out of poverty!! This is just some sort of Right-wing Ayn Randian propaganda!!

Dude: Capitalism is inherently flawed. Look around and wake up. And no offense intended, but fuck Ayn Rand and her zombie like followers.

Me: You wake up. Every political and economic system is inherently flawed because humans are involved. And when I look around all I see are problems caused by government interference and corporate collusion. That's not capitalism.

Dude: According to your theory we should just give up. However, I am not so jaded. Maybe you should just give up?

Dude's Wife: Yeah, like I hate those fire departments that the government runs. The fire department really sucks the way it comes and saves people from fires and car accidents and stuff. I wish the government would keep its nose out of my public safety. All the government does is fuck up our lives! ;)

Me: Nice try, strawman. I've never heard of a Federal or even State run fire department.

Dude's Wife: Oh, I am sorry--I used local government. I wasn't aware that my example was limited only to state and federal government. My bad. How about, I really hate that fucked up space program and all those scientists who the government funds to find cures to disease and stuff.

Geez, you are one hostile little man. And this was originally such a nice thread of comments.

Me: Dude, I never said we should give up. You declared capitalism as inherently flawed. I assume you think capitalism is therefore a failed system because of the current recession. But all systems are flawed. I'll take the one that offers me the most freedom and economic growth.

Besides, you can't blame our current problems on the free market. We have not had a true free market in a century.

Dude: I'm not sure what kind of right wing loony Me is yet. Probably not a Randroid because he used the guru's name in less than reverential tones and he said mankind is inherently flawed. He doesn't seem particularly neocon either. I'm guessing he's not a neoliberal either because he hasn't fired "magic of the market" over our bow yet.

He seems confused, so I'm going to guess libertarian, with possibly some constitution party bending, depending on how much he loves bang-bangs.

Capitalism is inherently flawed because it exploits labor by stealing all of their surplus labor to invest in more capital. Eventually--such as now--there is nothing left to suck dry.

Anyone that thinks capitalism offers "freedom and economic growth" is either a useful dupe, or imagines themselves to be a master. But in reality you have no freedom and you have no wealth... you just don't know it.

When 1% of the population owns 90% of the wealth there is something wrong. It's called capital exploitation.... Read More

Of course you wont' get it because you are a victim of the superstructure.

Me: Right. I'm the hostile guy. Who started the name calling first?

Dude's Wife: LOL! "He did it first!" I'm out of here because I have stooped to being mocking and sarcastic and I have to go re-read some Swift so I can teach it to my seniors tomorrow--in my public school. Which sucks because it's a public school. And I suck because the government pays me. Good luck insulting each other, gentlemen!


I guess she didn't notice that I never actually resorted to name calling. I just pointed out that they did.

[Anti Federalist]

Gah, my IQ just lost a few points.

Who the fuck are these people?

[MRoCkEd]

"If one rejects laissez faire on account of mans fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action."
- Mises

[Kotin]

Gah, my IQ just lost a few points.

Who the fuck are these people?

a total mindfuck indeed..

[Master]

My head hurts after reading that.

[1000-points-of-fright]

My question is... if capitalism is so flawed and evil, how could they have initially thought that the CNN story about micro-loans was so awesome and beautiful. That's pure capitalism!!!

Probably because it was such a touchy-feely, help the poor kind of story. They didn't realize it was the free market at work. It couldn't possibly be. Hence my original sarcastic comment.

[Conza88]

"All systems are flawed"... because they violate natural law.

The non system, is the natural order. i.e Anarcho-Capitalism.

Ask yourself what creates civilization. i.e the more of it, the better?

Answer: Division of labor and private property rights... no where is there a need for the existence of a State (gang of thieves writ large)

[Epic]

"Capitalism is inherently flawed because it exploits labor by stealing all of their surplus labor to invest in more capital."

Ummm, who is this capitalism that he speaks of?

Seriously, this doesn't make sense. First, he says that he's for people lending to each other and making a profit. Using the "action axiom", we know that each person in the transaction profited (benefited, in the 'ex ante' sense), otherwise they wouldn't have done it.

Second, he says that he's a Marxist and is against profit when one person voluntarily trades labor for money.

Those views are contradictory. Profit cannot be inherently good and bad.

[mczerone]

Capitalism is inherently flawed because it exploits labor by stealing all of their surplus labor to invest in more capital. Eventually--such as now--there is nothing left to suck dry.

How does capitalism - an idea - actively "steal" labor?

What is "surplus labor"?

How is "labor" currently "sucked dry" when at least 15% of willing adults are unable to sell their labor to anyone?

Would you choose to live in a community that saved and sacrificed their labor to invest in the capital improvements required for running water, or one where the interests of "labor" required that the town constantly employ 40 people as bucket carriers to bring in fresh water and has open drainage because no capital was ever accumulated to even cover the sewers?

It seems that "dude" wants to live in the latter town, and use gov't force to prevent anyone else from freely investing their own labor and capital into productive works, thereby forcing us all to live in his dystopian fantasy where gov't doesn't add transaction costs, has complete knowledge and is never self-interested in establishing exact equality to each according to his means.

[Chester Copperpot]

Gah, my IQ just lost a few points.

Who the fuck are these people?

It was Mike HUckabee and his wife.

[angelatc]

It was Mike HUckabee and his wife.

I LOL'd!

I hate this. We have people in America openly and unashamedly quoting Karl Marx and trashing capitalism. How the heck did this happen?

[Epic]

All of Digg and Reddit (and the mainstream media) were standing up for communist Van Jones.

We essentially have a communist nation.

'Socialism' is a badge of honor to most kids.

[Anti Federalist]

It was Mike HUckabee and his wife.


:D

[micahnelson]

You guys aren't trying to defend the current system are you?

Our current system is a blend of free market, planned economics, state-control, and socialism. We have no caps on how much you can make and no risk of real failure for firms who have gotten to a certain size. The class below is still prevented from failure, though if they are strapped the government will hand them over to the firms one step above. The step below have no power against other firms, but still can control intellectual property, have special limited liability privileges, and have their rights protected above individuals.

Thats the ruling class.

The whipping boy class that gets hit the hardest is the true middle class, these people make 500k to 2 million a year. They are hit extremely hard with taxes, but do not have enough to protect assests like multimillionaires do. They hope to make it up into the upper echelons, or are too clueless to see the system is gunning for them.

The lower class are the mortgage payers and workers. Two income families with kids, single guys and gals. This makes up the numerical majority of the people in this country. Hard working for the most part, completely dependent on corporations for food, clothing, shelter, and income. Make enough money to purchase things to make life tolerable, but increasingly take antidepressants. Work long hours, die with nothing to show for it. Useful because they work, so they have more than the lowest class.

The bottom of the totem pole is poverty. They live in government housing or trailers. They depend on government hand outs. Life sucks for these people. They are more likely to get sick, commit crimes, and die sooner. The upper class blames the high taxes on these people, causing hatred between the poor and the poorest.

So, thats our system as I see it. Bankers, Insurance agents, and politicians. Government Contractors, and Coprorations. Small Business Owners. Hourly and Salaried workers making less than 200k to the Working Poor. And finally, the welfare class.

This is a broken system that does not reward hard work. This is not a free market, it is serfdom. Deregulation without removing the protections these corporations have is nothing more than tightening your own chains.

[KCIndy]

I hate this. We have people in America openly and unashamedly quoting Karl Marx and trashing capitalism. How the heck did this happen?


Even worse, "Dude's Wife" is a public school teacher. :eek::eek::eek:

[PaulaGem]

oops - I thought the terms "Facebook" and "argument" (reasonable discourse concerning opposing views on a subject) were mutually exclusive.

It sounds like you were bickering to me.

[Reason]

My head hurts after reading that.

you took my avatar! :mad:

[centure7]

The wife got mad when you called her strawman LOL.

[paulitics]

The wife got mad when you called her strawman LOL.

She sure did. lol. I noticed things went noticeably downhill from there.

[1000-points-of-fright]

She probably doesn't even know what I meant by it, therefore I was just name-calling.