How I have been converting neo-cons

[rodent]

..

[Suzu]

Well done! I will employ this myself. Can you provide links to where you obtained the charts?

[TechnoGuyRob]

Excellent!

Could you provide us with links to all the material you use in this regard?

[LibertyEagle]

Sounds like great advice. Thanks.

If you have the links handy to the things that you print out and show them, I would really appreciate it.

[micahnelson]

FBI

Feature: Ron Paul Offers Small Government
Benefit: We spend less to run the country
Incentive: If we don't downsize the government our dollar won't buy oil anymore. We wont have fuel to get our troops home because we are tapping the Strategic Oil Reserves like a freshman at a frat party. This leaves the US vulnerable at home and our soldiers likely dead on foreign soil.

[dircha]

One problem though is then when they turn on their televisions and see Ron Paul in a debate going on about how the war was illegitimate or unconstitutional and that we have no business being there. That makes me cringe a little.

For many of those people it brings back that strong, angry, gut reaction to want to shut the guy up for questioning the authority of the U.S. to do what it wants in the world and of the worthiness of the cause for which our troops are fighting and dying.

I kind of wish Paul would stick to a more nuanced approach like you talk about here. I tend to think that would be more effective in a GOP primary. Then he can open up the issue more if he gets the nomination.

[rodent]

..

[Zydeco]

That's not bad. I'm going to try it on my Fox News-lovin' stepbrother in a couple of weeks. I will report back.

[micahnelson]

Also, holy water works well.

[OptionsTrader]

I like to use the following argument with mutual fund investors that have a lot of money in the stock market but do not follow the commodities and forex markets closely.

I ask them to look at a chart of the S&P 500 over the past 6 years of this war and ask them if the stock market has gone up in value or down in value. They all say up when looking at the $SPX S&P 500 index. I then show the S&P denominated in ounces of gold instead of dollars, and ask them the question again, and the truth is painfully obvious and it is readilly apparent that the perceived "bull market" is a sham.

In 2002, around 4 ounces of gold would buy you one share of the S&P index. Today, you can sell the S&P index for a little less than 2 ounces of gold. A 50% loss vs simply investing in real money, gold.

I then give them a link to goldmoney.com and tell them to consider liquidating their mutual funds.

http://i22.tinypic.com/2ib2t7n.png

[rodent]

..

[micahnelson]

im digging these graphs man. Im gonna write a big scary article

[Johnnybags]

One problem though is then when they turn on their televisions and see Ron Paul in a debate going on about how the war was illegitimate or unconstitutional and that we have no business being there. That makes me cringe a little.

For many of those people it brings back that strong, angry, gut reaction to want to shut the guy up for questioning the authority of the U.S. to do what it wants in the world and of the worthiness of the cause for which our troops are fighting and dying.

I kind of wish Paul would stick to a more nuanced approach like you talk about here. I tend to think that would be more effective in a GOP primary. Then he can open up the issue more if he gets the nomination.

and you are right 100 percent, its a gut reaction and thats why they use it. Somehow they think we are demeaning troops. Ask why is it Ron gets more support from the troops than the others? And how come private contractors like Blackwater get paid far better for doing the same job as the troops? Maybe its the old donation answer?

[rodent]

///

[Tina]

One problem though is then when they turn on their televisions and see Ron Paul in a debate going on about how the war was illegitimate or unconstitutional and that we have no business being there. That makes me cringe a little.

For many of those people it brings back that strong, angry, gut reaction to want to shut the guy up for questioning the authority of the U.S. to do what it wants in the world and of the worthiness of the cause for which our troops are fighting and dying.

I kind of wish Paul would stick to a more nuanced approach like you talk about here. I tend to think that would be more effective in a GOP primary. Then he can open up the issue more if he gets the nomination.

Everyone is different, but this is exactly why I support him. Doesn't make me cringe at all.

I do question the authority of the US to do what it wants in the world, so it works for me.

[rodent]

..

[OptionsTrader]

For some sites with other charts you can grab:

James Turk's commentary on goldmoney.com
http://goldmoney.com/en/commentary.php

GATA:
http://www.gata.org/

[micahnelson]

Most people are visual! You can sway their minds with real pictures they can get from real markets on the web. It makes a lot more of a dent than just some words. The pictures are the true situation, and they need to realize they aren't getting the real information from their politicians.

All important commodity prices are skyrocketing because people with more valuable currency outside the US can now buy commodities more easily. Oil and gold will only get more expensive, and the common man is going to suffer immensely.

Good point, short article with big scary graphs.

[dircha]

Everyone is different, but this is exactly why I support him. Doesn't make me cringe at all.

I do question the authority of the US to do what it wants in the world, so it works for me.

I should have been clearer. I cringe not because I disagree, but because I know how my neo-conservative friends and co-workers will react when they hear Ron Paul say it, especially when I've asked them to go out of their way to watch a debate to hear Paul for themselves.

[Johnnybags]

Doubled? 4.00 loafs of bread in a year! There is no drought either? Its being exported because its cheap for foreigners. They'll be buying up our food supply if this keeps up.

[OptionsTrader]

In addition to the S&P 500 denominated in dollars vs the S&P 500 denominated in gold ounces, it is helpful to lay out a chart of gold and the dollar index.

Even a 4 year old can tell you what has been a better investment, dollars or gold. People on fixed incomes and people working for a living are being ravaged by the policies of this government. And most don't even realize it.

http://i20.tinypic.com/2mqkzgy.png

[OptionsTrader]

For anyone that is paid in dollars, Ron Paul is their candidate.

[richard1984]

This thread is GREAT!!!! :D Thank you!

I've been wanting something exactly like this to use with the (male) older adults that I know (my dad, my fiancée's dad, and all of their friends), but I'm new to economics, so I haven't been able to lay it out right. This is exactly what I needed!

I look forward to any future further explanations (like that article mentioned).


What I love the most about the Freedom Movement is that it moves hand-in-hand with an education revolution. Because of this campaign, young Americans may actually learn how to handle their lives (financial lives, for example).
Our education system is the absolute pits. It's ruining this country!!!
Just imagine if we mixed our children's education in with a little more individual freedom!

[MsDoodahs]

When comparing asset classes, 5 yrs is basically overnight. If you were to start that chart in Jan 1980 and end it today, it would look dramatically different. Because of the impact of fiat currency and the cantillon effect, over any long investment horizon, stocks are the single best asset to buy.

One of the more profound difficulties in convincing an investor with a working knowledge of Austrian economics to support "sound money" is that those persons know how to capitalize on "unsound money" in order to get ahead. Understanding the cantillon effect is crucial in that regard. Once they understand it, they know how to work the system as it exists and are thereby incentivized to maintain the current system.

I'm glad you are winning converts - but be aware the "stocks priced in gold" argument is specious at best, and you do run the risk of someone calling you out on this.

As an aside, I don't know that gold would be an acceptable commodity to back sound currency. Since gold futures have been traded, gold has been exposed as a speculative commodity and I don't know if any commodity, once having been an object of speculative mania (1980), could ever be considered "sound." Just thinking out loud...

(above is DooDahs, not MsDooDahs. I'm just the typist. He's clearly the brains behind the operation. ;) Disclosure: have made money in gold and hold some today. :) )

[stevedasbach]

This was very tough for me to crack, but I finally did it. The approach I use is to not question or address whether the war in Iraq is right or wrong. Too many people drink the MSM kool-aid and don't know how to make a proper decision on this.

The way I do it is this: I took a print-out of the gold and a crude oil futures stock-chart and the US dollar index. I show how our money is dropping with real pictures and I ask people if they know why the dollar value is dropping. I let them answer, they try. I have a print-out of a news article that talks about how congress is trying to raise the debt cap, and I have one article with Bush asking for a giant Iraq war budget.

I then paint a picture about how the war is interrelated with how we're all suffering form a weaker dollar -- I do not mention the elimination of the Federal Reserve. It's important NOT TO MAKE A VALUE JUDGEMENT about the war. So I explain to people how much value their money has lost, how their savings accounts are actually getting weaker, and then explain how we can't afford the current path we're on and that we have to cut down spending.

Then I ask them if they know of any republican politician who's genuinely spoken for smaller government. They usually try at something, talk about maybe Fair-Tax, etc.

Finally, I cap the conversion process by asking how we'd defend ourselves from terrorism or fund the education of children if we're genuinely bankrupt. This solidifies and clears people's minds. I then hand over links to the RP site. So far, I have converted 3-4 pro-war people -- they're still pro-war, but they're more afraid of financial collapse than terrorism now.

It's critical to make the financial collapse fear trump the fear of international terrorism. You can't run a military if you're broke, and there's no way around it. How are you going to pay the brave men and women who serve if we're broke and our money isn't good anywhere?

I wonder if someone with the necessary skills could turn this into a YouTube video that could be spread virally?

[RP4ME]

Hmmm isnt teh war actually helping prop up teh dollar - my investment advisor told me war with iran woudl likely boost the dollar temporarily.....

Overall not good but i think the dollar and teh markets/oil were all reason for Iraq invasion no?

[krott5333]

i do that too... if I know an issue that people disagree with Ron Paul on, I'll try to downplay that issue and go with something else.

"oh, hes pro-life? blah"

"abortion is the absolute least of our countries problems! I'm personally pro-life.. Ron Paul could be a mass baby killer and I'd still vote for him!"

;)

[Richandler]

I approve of this topic. Haha :D

[rodent]

..

[MsDoodahs]

Those people really aren't the people this campaign is about.

:eek:

[rodent]

..

[Corydoras]

I have a script that some of you may have seen in another thread. When I don't have time, there is one line I make SURE to use, in exactly these simple words:

"This guy is SO SMART with money!"

For some reason, it always, always rivets people's attention.

[rodent]

..

[RonFan1776]

I like your idea. I spent a few minutes brainstorming the text for a new football gameday flyer. It will be something like this:



Did you know that our American Dollar is now worth less than the Canadian Dollar?

Did you know that our country and our dollar are in a financial CRISIS?

---- Small Charts::
US Dollar: (2-year chart) US Govt Debt: (70-year chart)
Our dollar is worth 15% less today than it was just two short years ago.
Current Government Debt: >$9 Trillion
---- End Small Charts::

Our National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$1.28 billion per day for the last year.

We are borrowing money daily from China and Japan to finance
our war and our massive government overspending. Each day the
value of our dollar is hurt by this constant borrowing of
foreign capital. Each day we become more and more in debt to
other nations.

How long can we keep financing wars?
How long can we keep rebuilding countries?
How long can we keep fighting in the Middle East?

This year, every dollar of the income tax you pay will go towards
paying off the INTEREST on the national debt. Just the interest!

It's time now for a real change before our country is in a
financial crisis that we cannot overcome.

You can help fix this problem. Vote for Ron Paul in the 2008
Republican presidential primary election. He is the only candidate
from either party that offers smaller government, and he has a flawless
10-term congressional voting record to back up everything he says he
will do once he is elected president.

Find out more: http://www.RonPaul2008.com


Any suggestions?

[OptionsTrader]

Gold is much more than just another commodity.

If you are an investor, you need to be familiar with the long term manipulation of the gold market and how the manipulators are currently losing their grip and the short covering rally that is most likely still in its infancy:

http://www.gata.org

[rodent]

..

[OptionsTrader]

...

[Pistis]

Great ideas!

Everybody understands the value of money and nothing annoys people more than to see in pictures how the value of their money is literally dissapearing before their eyes. And then you can tell them only Ron Paul is talking about it and has workable solutions to stop it.

A fantastic article and some more great charts over a 5 to 10year period at this link:

http://goldsilver.com/the_dow_is_crashing.php?#OLE_LINK4

US Dollar vs Gold
DOW vs gold, silver, ...
DOW vs Crude oil
Dow vs Food
DOW vs all major currencies

..and more

[RonFan1776]

Okay guys, here is my first rough version of the flyer. Obviously it has some text alignment issues and whatnot, but that is a simple fix. Any suggestions are appreciated. I left in one war reference, but I think ignoring that is like ignoring the elephant in the room. Oh, and I just noticed the "Getter" instead of "Getting". :p

One thing that I do DESPERATELY need is a plain-jane 5-year $USD or USDX chart. If anyone has a stockcharts.com account or a similar service, can you make me a 5-year $USD chart with the parameters:

Symbol: $USD
Period: 5 Year
Type: Line (solid), Size: 460, Color Scheme: Monochrome (Print), Volume: OFF
Overlays, Indicators: NONE

I would greatly appreciate if someone could get me an image of that chart, or a similar one from another service.

Here is the flyer so far. Again, any suggestions are appreciated:


http://i23.tinypic.com/2ps0qc1.jpg

[wgadget]

Well, I'm putting together my BANKRUPTCY NOTEBOOK, with copies of all the graphs and articles mentioned here.

Gonna go sit at the county fair GOP booth with it and edumacate some people about Ron Paul!!!

Thanks SOOOO much...very timely information.

[RonFan1776]

I will try and post a "mostly" final version of the flier here in just a few minutes.

I found a USD vs. CAN chart that I think will work for my purposes.

[syborius]

This was very tough for me to crack, but I finally did it. The approach I use is to not question or address whether the war in Iraq is right or wrong. Too many people drink the MSM kool-aid and don't know how to make a proper decision on this.

The way I do it is this: I took a print-out of the gold and a crude oil futures stock-chart and the US dollar index. I show how our money is dropping with real pictures and I ask people if they know why the dollar value is dropping. I let them answer, they try. I have a print-out of a news article that talks about how congress is trying to raise the debt cap, and I have one article with Bush asking for a giant Iraq war budget.

I then paint a picture about how the war is interrelated with how we're all suffering form a weaker dollar -- I do not mention the elimination of the Federal Reserve. It's important NOT TO MAKE A VALUE JUDGEMENT about the war. So I explain to people how much value their money has lost, how their savings accounts are actually getting weaker, and then explain how we can't afford the current path we're on and that we have to cut down spending.

Then I ask them if they know of any republican politician who's genuinely spoken for smaller government. They usually try at something, talk about maybe Fair-Tax, etc.

Finally, I cap the conversion process by asking how we'd defend ourselves from terrorism or fund the education of children if we're genuinely bankrupt. This solidifies and clears people's minds. I then hand over links to the RP site. So far, I have converted 3-4 pro-war people -- they're still pro-war, but they're more afraid of financial collapse than terrorism now.

It's critical to make the financial collapse fear trump the fear of international terrorism. You can't run a military if you're broke, and there's no way around it. How are you going to pay the brave men and women who serve if we're broke and our money isn't good anywhere?



Bloody brilliant. I love it. This is basically what finally convinced my ex business partner to convert after 1 year of arguing. Economic collapse trumps all really, and it's unfortunately the truth. If we don't change course we will all go down in flames. :(

[RonFan1776]

How about this?


http://i23.tinypic.com/2vih6k2.jpg

[jonahtrainer]

Do you think Mitt Romney cares about inflation? He could let inflation eat him away until he's dead and still be living pretty!

For those that understand inflation and the markets, like OptionsTrader, there are ways to benefit greatly from what is happening.

For example, 6 weeks ago I bought the Oct 700 Calls on Gold for $8.50. I sold them this week for $29.20. That is a $2,100 profit per contract. I thought gold would consolidate but it moved higher. Had I held I could have sold them Friday for $42.00.

Two weeks ago I bought the Dec 13.5 Calls on silver for $.40. They are around $.70-.90 today.

You better bet Mitt Romney cares about inflation because he benefits from it. Inflation doesn't eat him away; it propels him away in net worth from everyone else.

This thread seems like a great way to motivate neocons. Keep up the good work.

Also, I highly endorse GoldMoney.com (http://www.goldmoney.com) and have had significant amounts of capital allocated there. Once CAP-Verified they are pretty awesome.

[MsDoodahs]

And it is those people (like Options Trader and Jonah Trainer), who are able to benefit greatly from what is happening AND who love the country that we DO NOT WANT TO ALIENATE.

The campaign is NOT just about the paycheck to paycheck families, it's about even people who use their understanding of the system to benefit from it as best they can.

And we NEED those people - because they can donate the max.

:)

[Leslie Webb]

Why avoid the war references? The cost of our foreign policy is one of the major reasons the country is going bankrupt. Bush the war president is the biggest spender since LBJ.

Future unfunded liabilites for Medicare and Social Security are also estimated at $50-60 trillion dollars. In the flyer you might mention that that these liabilities along with the national debt will ruin the US economy. To pay for these liabilities future workers will lose almost all of their salaries to payroll taxes. (Sorry I don't have exact figures for the liabilities amount or what % of payroll will be taken out in taxes. I believe the Cato Institute and some economists have done studies on this issue. )

[jonahtrainer]

And it is those people (like Options Trader and Jonah Trainer), who are able to benefit greatly from what is happening AND who love the country that we DO NOT WANT TO ALIENATE.

The campaign is NOT just about the paycheck to paycheck families, it's about even people who use their understanding of the system to benefit from it as best they can.

And we NEED those people - because they can donate the max.

:)

Yes, we all ought to be willing to risk our lives, fortunes and honor in returning to a Constitutional form of government. We Americans would be a lot wealthier if we did. A $23 donation from one may have the same moral impact on the individual donor as a $2,300 from another. If you do not have $2,300 to donate then find someone who does and bring them in.

Had some fun Wednesday:


Futures

USD
Description Date Time Exchange Qty T.Price S.Price Commiss P/L Code
CL NOV07 2007-09-26, 10:24:50 NYMEX -1 80.5500 80.3000 -2.75 247.25 O
CL NOV07 2007-09-26, 10:25:43 NYMEX 1 80.5000 80.3000 -2.75 -202.75 C
CL NOV07 2007-09-26, 10:32:39 NYMEX -1 79.7900 80.3000 -2.75 -512.75 O
CL NOV07 2007-09-26, 10:33:19 NYMEX 1 79.7200 80.3000 -2.75 577.25 C
CL NOV07 2007-09-26, 10:34:13 NYMEX -1 79.6500 80.3000 -2.75 -652.75 O
CL NOV07 2007-09-26, 10:50:37 NYMEX 1 79.4500 80.3000 -2.75 847.25 C
CL NOV07 2007-09-26, 11:09:41 NYMEX -1 78.9500 80.3000 -2.75 -1,352.75 O
CL NOV07 2007-09-26, 12:44:11 NYMEX 1 78.7500 80.3000 -2.75 1,547.25 C
Total -22.00 498.00

9/27/07 Ordered Visa D31####C4
Quantity SKU Description Price Total
7500 1002 Slim Jim - "RON PAUL FOR PRESIDENT"
(500+ for $3.00 per 100)
$0.03 $225.00
250 2001 Ron Paul Hope for America White Bumper Sticker
(250-499 for $.34/ea)
$0.34 $85.00
100 3001 Official Ron Paul 2008 2.25" White Button
(100+ for $.50/ea)
$0.50 $50.00
100 3001 Official Ron Paul 2008 2.25" Blue Button
(100+ for $.50/ea)
$0.50 $50.00

Sub-Total
$410.00
Standard Shipping $92.00
Sales Tax $0.00
Ron Paul 2008 Total $502.00
Store Credit -$0.00
TOTAL DUE $502.00

I am going out to visit a couple aunts (nurse & schoolteacher). I am going to get them involved with their Meetup groups and outfit them with some supplies.

[Liberty]

Great ideas!

Everybody understands the value of money and nothing annoys people more than to see in pictures how the value of their money is literally dissapearing before their eyes. And then you can tell them only Ron Paul is talking about it and has workable solutions to stop it.

A fantastic article and some more great charts over a 5 to 10year period at this link:

http://goldsilver.com/the_dow_is_crashing.php?#OLE_LINK4

US Dollar vs Gold
DOW vs gold, silver, ...
DOW vs Crude oil
Dow vs Food
DOW vs all major currencies

..and more

Great thread. Don't miss the Dow vs. all major currency charts in the link above from Pistis. These charts are also very important and show the true picture of the Dow on the world stage, which is very different from the Dow portrayed by MSM and the Bush administration. I think an effective television campaign ad for Ron Paul can be made using some of these charts.

[MsDoodahs]

This may have already been mentioned, but on the debt chart, you can show what happened to the debt after 1971.

I'm always amazed by that. :)

[rodent]

..

[rodent]

..

[torchbearer]

I like to use the following argument with mutual fund investors that have a lot of money in the stock market but do not follow the commodities and forex markets closely.

I ask them to look at a chart of the S&P 500 over the past 6 years of this war and ask them if the stock market has gone up in value or down in value. They all say up when looking at the $SPX S&P 500 index. I then show the S&P denominated in ounces of gold instead of dollars, and ask them the question again, and the truth is painfully obvious and it is readilly apparent that the perceived "bull market" is a sham.

In 2002, around 4 ounces of gold would buy you one share of the S&P index. Today, you can sell the S&P index for a little less than 2 ounces of gold. A 50% loss vs simply investing in real money, gold.

I then give them a link to goldmoney.com and tell them to consider liquidating their mutual funds.

http://i22.tinypic.com/2ib2t7n.png

That is a good observation, one I have overlooked many times and I'm sure others have as well....

[jacmicwag]

But are there enough people in the United States with an attention span long enough to digest your story? The hawks have it so much easier than us - bomb Iran, kill terrorists, make America strong. The short message.

I have not read this whole thread but to win, we need a fast pitch with substance, as does Ron.

[rodent]

..

[rodent]

..

[torchbearer]

Well, I'm putting together my BANKRUPTCY NOTEBOOK, with copies of all the graphs and articles mentioned here.

Gonna go sit at the county fair GOP booth with it and edumacate some people about Ron Paul!!!

Thanks SOOOO much...very timely information.

Have we made a real world impact by discussing ideas online? Could it be?

[MsDoodahs]

You know what, it's avoiding the answers to complex questions - it's that appetite for correcting a major problem with nothing but a damned soundbyte - that has gotten us INTO this mess.


I mean, do people REALLY believe the solutions to the problems our nation faces can be given to them in a few soundbytes?

Come on, americans aren't ignorant.

They just need to be reminded that in the past, they've allowed themselves to be fooled by the same old politicians, and the evidence that they WERE fooled is that we still have ALL THE SAME PROBLEMS!

If they want real solutions to very real problems, they MUST force themselves to go deeper this time, and get past soundbytes.

[PollM]

Dear Friends and Members, I suggested that we discuss the issues as much as possible since Ron is right on the issues. It's what people want to hear. Try to tie the issues to Ron.

Look at this http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=608.

Hillary and other are not going to handle this any differently. I suggest we try to use these issues of opportunity to explain to people what we stand for. We should also create these issues. Spread this around.
Edit/Delete Message

[itsnobody]

This was very tough for me to crack, but I finally did it. The approach I use is to not question or address whether the war in Iraq is right or wrong. Too many people drink the MSM kool-aid and don't know how to make a proper decision on this.

The way I do it is this: I took a print-out of the gold and a crude oil futures stock-chart and the US dollar index. I show how our money is dropping with real pictures and I ask people if they know why the dollar value is dropping. I let them answer, they try. I have a print-out of a news article that talks about how congress is trying to raise the debt cap, and I have one article with Bush asking for a giant Iraq war budget.

I then paint a picture about how the war is interrelated with how we're all suffering form a weaker dollar -- I do not mention the elimination of the Federal Reserve. It's important NOT TO MAKE A VALUE JUDGEMENT about the war. So I explain to people how much value their money has lost, how their savings accounts are actually getting weaker, and then explain how we can't afford the current path we're on and that we have to cut down spending.

Then I ask them if they know of any republican politician who's genuinely spoken for smaller government. They usually try at something, talk about maybe Fair-Tax, etc.

Finally, I cap the conversion process by asking how we'd defend ourselves from terrorism or fund the education of children if we're genuinely bankrupt. This solidifies and clears people's minds. I then hand over links to the RP site. So far, I have converted 3-4 pro-war people -- they're still pro-war, but they're more afraid of financial collapse than terrorism now.

It's critical to make the financial collapse fear trump the fear of international terrorism. You can't run a military if you're broke, and there's no way around it. How are you going to pay the brave men and women who serve if we're broke and our money isn't good anywhere?

Great! You should get this posted on some web site

[jacmicwag]

Who said Americans are ignorant? When times are halfway decent and folks have jobs there is no great motivation for change. We are sounding an early economic warning that many won't hear until those future contracts go out the roof. That's why it's tricky for us and requires the ability to communicate important messages at different levels of detail for different levels of pain or attention span. If nothing else, we sure are educating ourselves.

[dircha]

Dear Friends and Members, I suggested that we discuss the issues as much as possible since Ron is right on the issues. It's what people want to hear. Try to tie the issues to Ron.

Look at this http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=608.

Hillary and other are not going to handle this any differently. I suggest we try to use these issues of opportunity to explain to people what we stand for. We should also create these issues. Spread this around.
Edit/Delete Message

Unfortunately most people choose not to impartially assess policy positions before reacting to them. Instead they go the "I want to kill this guy and make him shut up" route whenever they hear something they disagree with, or when they are afraid they will hear something that will call their existing beliefs into question.

Now, there is a time and a place for trying to shout down your opponent and not giving them the time of day, such as when debating them might be seen to lend credibility to their views, but for most people this reaction is involuntary, not strategic.

It is painful to have your deeply held beliefs called into question. It is painful to be wrong, and to be reminded of when we have been wrong.

[giskard]

This is a job for ARAVOTH!!!!

I've always thought the nation's biggest problem is not terrorism nor the Iraq war, but the coming FISCAL CRISIS.

We need a youtube video outlining the above!

[jonahtrainer]

This is a job for ARAVOTH!!!!

I've always thought the nation's biggest problem is not terrorism nor the Iraq war, but the coming FISCAL CRISIS.

We need a youtube video outlining the above!


What is really scary is how Islam can bring us down. At Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_gold_dinar)"According to Islamic law, the Islamic dinar is a specific weight of 22k gold (.917 fine) equivalent to 4.25 grams." This is the real reason we are attacking Iran (http://www.321gold.com/editorials/willis/willis120204.html)as they are trying to secede from the Empire like the Southern States did.

Then the Establishment will try and say anyone who uses gold is a terrorist.

[dsentell]

Just wanted to say Thank You for the impressive flier!

I am printing out a stack to hand out at an upcoming gun show!

[RonFan1776]

Glad that the flyer will be of use to other people!

BTW, my local UPS store had a sign up that they would do 1,000 B&W copies for $29.80. If yours has a similar deal you might think about taking one there and having them run a couple of samples to see if they look good. Would save a lot of time, and probably be a wash on money considering ink/toner/paper costs.

[rodent]

..

[RonFan1776]

Yes, I will post the original Publisher files, as well as a PDF version when I get back home later this evening.

[jonahtrainer]

Can we get a sticky and the original files you used to edit your flier? The financial crisis is by far the best way to reach people, and we need to make people more aware of this.

People are PM'ing me asking me for materials, and I haven't put together a clean "Financial Crisis Packet" electronically, I just have print outs on paper.


So, I just got back from dinner at the Outback Crab Shack. Yes, I live in Neocon Bush country. I spotted a table full of Vietnam vets who rid their Harleys.

On the way out I stopped by and told them about Ron Paul and how he wants to end the IRS.

A lady asked 'Is he a Democrat?' (so I knew they were the GOP base Neocon warmongers).

One of the guys responded 'No, he is Republican but more Libertarian.' (so I know he has heard him in the debates)

I responded with 'Ya, he is right. (disarms him by not attacking him by saying Ron Paul is a 10 term Republican. Then I immediately changed the subject to throw a volley at the Neocons.) Did you know on Friday the Dollar hit a 30 year low? How are we going to protect ourselves from the terrorists when our dollar won't buy anything and we can't pay our troops? What about Russia and China?'

They looked like deer in the headlights. It was classic! Thanks ya'll for the idea on this thread. I think not making a value judgment on the war to these Vietnam Vets is critically important. I think I got that table of 6 to serious consider Ron Paul. Switch the fear from terrorists to financial collapse, brilliant idea.

Playin' it cool with verbal jiu-jitsu :cool:

[rodent]

..

[RonFan1776]

Oh, one error in this: Change "nation's" to "nations' ". Possessive apostrophe for plural noun -- gotta put the apostrophe at the end.

THANKS! I swear to you I looked at the flier for 5 minutes trying to figure out what you were talking about. The only "nations" I saw was the one that wasn't possessive (in the upper-left block of text). :D

Got it fixed now.

[LBT]

Not only are more middle eastern countries starting to pull out of the US$, but there are rumors that China may increasingly start selling off their huge US$ reserves in exchange for Euros and gold.
http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=49620

If a panic sell off starts, it could get really messy. Possibly leading to huge bank runs and devaluation of the US$ to a fraction of its current value.

Terrorism will be the last fear on people's minds if the dollar continues to destabilize.

Each day that the dollar continues to slide and gold rises, we move ever closer to a financial collapse.

[RonFan1776]

Here is hopefully the "FINAL" revision of the flier.

http://i23.tinypic.com/5ph8xw.jpg

The original publisher file can be downloaded here:

http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/files/431801_g8b9q/Ron%20Paul%20-%20Sooner%20Debt%20Flier%20-%20v6.pub

The PDF version can be downloaded here:

http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/files/431802_kvldl/Ron%20Paul%20-%20Sooner%20Debt%20Flier%20-%20v6.pdf

A high-resolution single-page version can be downloaded here:

http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/files/download/431803_nhobo/Ron%20Paul%20-%20Sooner%20Debt%20Flier%20-%20v6%20Page2%20full%20res.JPG

[Pistis]

Good work RonFan1776! I like the flier and i think it's pretty much there, but you might want to consider mentioning in the 1st or 2nd paragraph that Congress have literally just had to increase the US debt limit otherwise we would be technically bankrupt. See link below:

Congress agrees to raise U.S. credit limit,

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN2742101920070928

[Thomas_Paine]

Avoid the war references. Do something like -- "Getting harder to raise a family? Pay for college?"

Then do this:

Take a picture of corn flakes, and put this next to it:

http://www.tfc-charts.w2d.com/chart/CN/M

Take a picture of a can of gasoline, and put this next to it:

http://www.tfc-charts.w2d.com/chart/QM/M

Then take a picture of one of those graduation-caps, and post a photo of college tuition increases [maybe a chart].

Then put:




We cannot fight this war against neo-cons by talking about obscure issues the average American can't relate to. Americans can relate to gas prices and corn flakes.

Gas prices and a loaf of bread.

[Thomas_Paine]

Perhaps the Federal Reserve should be cited for creating the inflation through Fiat Currency. Only Ron Paul will STOP the devaluing of the dollar and the bankruptcy of our country.

[rodent]

..

[Corydoras]

His mind works like this: I FEAR TERRORISTS. I HAVE TO ALLY WITH PEOPLE WHO CAN HELP ME WITH TERRORISTS. OTHER PEOPLE WILL NOT PROTECT ME. MY FEAR IS JUSTIFIED. I AM AFRAID OF LOSING THE IRS AND THE FEDERAL RESERVE BECAUSE THEY ARE PART OF THE STRUCTURE THAT HELPS US AND ALLOWS US TO FIGHT THE TERRORISTS.

Your job is to override the fear of terrorists, not by making a value judgement on his other fears. Your job is to simply make him think like this:

HOW CAN WE FIGHT TERRORISTS IF WE CAN'T BUY FOOD AND SUPPLIES. HOW WILL MY FAMILY EAT. WHAT HAPPENS IF EVERYTHING I WORKED FOR AND SAVED UP IS GONE AND WE HAVE TO FIGHT TERRORISTS? HOW CAN WE SAVE OUR MONEY? HOW CAN I PAY FOR GAS?

Brilliant!!! Brilliant!!! Brilliant!!!

[surf]

:eek: That really grabs attention

[richard1984]

:eek: That really grabs attention

Can you throw up a fast link/graph showing that?

[richard1984]

Perhaps the Federal Reserve should be cited for creating the inflation through Fiat Currency. Only Ron Paul will STOP the devaluing of the dollar and the bankruptcy of our country.

I think that's a good idea (at least if you're talking to people you know). If you can come up with a quick, efficient way to explain that, you should be fine. Maybe take notes from Dr. Paul himself. ;) He knows what the hell he's doing. And he preaches getting rid of the Fed--so maybe we should, too!!! (as long as we can support our argument--it sucks to say stuff, but then not be able to really support your claim, even when you know you're right)

[aksmith]

For Gold, you can use the ETF 'GLD' on Yahoo Finance, here:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=GLD&t=5y

(^ This is a 5 year chart)

For oil, you can use:

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CO/M

And for the dollar index, you can use:

http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DX&v=dmax

You might want to match everything up to a 2 year time frame and google up some better charts. I personally just have some print-outs from TradeStation (a program I use.)

I have some print-outs of articles like:

- Hillary wants to give $5000 to each baby
- GW Bush's war budget requests
- etc

Put them all together and make a nice picture of BANKRUPTCY.

That is a great strategy. But maybe try this chart instead. It shows the run up then run down of the dollar pre-war and post-war starting.

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/US/M

[surf]

Can you throw up a fast link/graph showing that?

chart here:
http://finance.google.com/finance?q=usdmxn&hl=en

down .74% YOY

[Eric21ND]

Can someone add the value of the peso to this graph. When you see the peso reaching all-time highs vs. the dollar it really shocks people. This is a great way to get Ron Paul's name into the conversation and get this country back to fiscal responsibility.

[RonFan1776]

I really think this is a powerful message. It is best to use something that people don't have a big opinion on in order to get them to start thinking differently.

In this case, people know deep down that something is wrong with our financial situation, and all it takes is a little information to jump start that fear into high gear (which is really where it should be).

From there it is much easier to broach other subjects with them.

[rodent]

Bump, because the flier in this thread needs exposure and a sticky.

People, don't get bogged down in arguments about the war, or abortion, or anything. This is the fastest way to engage people.

[takadi]

When you explained to them why the dollar is dropping, what reason did you give them? Did you use the federal reserve's inflation of the dollar by printing money, or something else?

[rodent]

..

[takadi]

Here is hopefully the "FINAL" revision of the flier.

http://i23.tinypic.com/5ph8xw.jpg

The original publisher file can be downloaded here:

http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/files/431801_g8b9q/Ron%20Paul%20-%20Sooner%20Debt%20Flier%20-%20v6.pub

The PDF version can be downloaded here:

http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/files/431802_kvldl/Ron%20Paul%20-%20Sooner%20Debt%20Flier%20-%20v6.pdf

A high-resolution single-page version can be downloaded here:

http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/files/download/431803_nhobo/Ron%20Paul%20-%20Sooner%20Debt%20Flier%20-%20v6%20Page2%20full%20res.JPG




Do you have a printer friendly version of that flier? The PDF has a good scaled version, but its two per page. Does anyone know how to make it one per page?

[RonFan1776]

Easiest way would probably be to zoom in with Acrobat to just one of the pages, and then when you go to print in the Print dialog box just click on the radio button that says "Current View". Then next to "Page Scaling" choose "Fit to printable area" to make it full-page.

Give that a shot. I'd make one whole-page, but I'm afraid Publisher would make that a big PITA for me (I'm just an amateur at this). :D

Alternatively you can take that full-resolution JPG and print it from Picture Viewer in XP, or insert it into a word document and print it that way.

[richard1984]

Okay. So here's my dilemma: I'm definitely not well versed in economics, but I generally understand the economic situation (because of what Ron Paul has said). The problem is that I don't think that I'd be able to support my position very well against people like my dad (or anyone who actively argues against my points). I guess the biggest hurdle is that he just doesn't see what's going on, doesn't know anything about monetary policy, etc. So I need to find a way to introduce him to these ideas and the information provided/discussed in this thread in a way that will really hit home.
Unfortunately, he already thinks (because he's been told by neocon news) that Ron Paul is a kook and that I am, too.
So how do I present this stuff to someone like that without making them shut-down, ignore me, or just passively disagree for whatever random reason.
I know that this has the potential to completely change the way he looks at what's going on in the world (and once I get him, I can do the same thing with a lot of other men his age--my fiancée's dad, their friends (like the local District Attorney), etc.).

Is there some resource that can help me explain all of this stuff to people a little more effectively, give me some ammo against rebuttal, etc.?
Someone much earlier in this thread mentioned writing an article to go along with the graphs and so forth. Is that really going to happen? It would really help me out a lot.

[rodent]

..

[ChooseLiberty]

Great thread and ideas!

You could also try the CRB index (commodities) which has had a stunning rise since 2002.

For the older folks the term STAGFLATION might ring a bell.

President Paul is going to have his work cut out for him. :D

[RonPaulIsGood]

Imagine the whole world without computers and technology. We certainly would not have the prosperity and peace now. Thanks to Reagan's tax cuts in the 1980s, the whole world benefited from the information technology boom in the 1990s. Now it's inescapable to find innumerable masses of computers, in every nation, both in developed and undeveloped, in our friends and in our enemies.

Our prosperity has persistently compelled other nations to follow us—even for our most disastrous plans. We had set up a central bank in 1913, from a clear deception—but now, all but two countries--Andorra and Monaco--has set up the same malignancy. Marijuana, less harmful than tobacco or alcohol, because it's prohibited in our nation—most other nations knock on it too.

Our Great Depression, followed by the New Deal socialist state, was a huge embarrassment, which fueled communism in China and Russia to last many decades further. But our capitalist example pushed them for their free market reforms at their free will—all without our coercive military.

We would be a stronger nation, without military presence, not a weaker nation. We would be a stronger nation without high taxation for our military intervention—which create innovation. We should set up a good example, we do not need to show off our military—what we need is to show off the prosperity created in a freer economy. However, our military presence set an example that violence acceptable for our followers. Non-intervention, brings prosperity, innovation and peace to other nations. But without setting a good example for our followers, we would be fighting never-ending wars.

[ChrisAZ]

One of the toughest nuts to crack that we have with a lot of the Republican/conservative voters is the "war" issue. The neocons continue to refer to this nation building as the "Iraqi war" and continue to proffer the rally cry that we must "win the war." They do this to instill a false sense of patriotic obligation that is still playing very well with many Republican and conservative voters.

Let's stop letting the neocons dictate the false terminology on this issue. The Truth is there is no war. We won the war four years ago. We conquered the Iraqi military four years ago. What we have now in the Iraqi nation building is an "Iraqi Foreign Aid Project" or rather an "Iraqi Foreign Aid Boondoggle." Let's call it what it truly is, an "Iraqi Foreign Aid Project."

If we reject the neocon position that "we are in a war," and instead use more truthful language that we are really in a "Giant Iraqi Foreign Aid Boondoggle" we break the neocons false hold on many American's patriotic sense of obligation that they must support the war -- that we must win.

Most conservative Republicans tend to automatically have a gut rejection of any foreign aid. Show them that the Iraq situation is simply a giant foreign aid boondoggle.

I have begun using this tactic with Republicans and conservatives that are diehard war supporters and have already had some "aha" moments and eye openings, and even a couple conversions. I tell them we are not at war. We already conquered Iraq four years ago. What we have now is simply a Giant Foreign Aid Boondoggle to build an foreign nation courtesy of American taxpayers, while neglecting our own borders. We still haven't built but 17 new miles of wall on our southern border.

[newmedia4ron]

...

[shortna]

Why isn't this thread sticky?!? This is the best idea that I have heard regarding conversion of pro-war republican's and neo cons!!!11

[libertygrl]

Well, for psychological reasons. Anti-war is some kind of psychological trigger for calling up MSM propaganda. If the MSM brainwashed a person before you get to him/her, you have a harder battle. If you avoid the war reference and explain the mechanics of financial collapse visually, it gives a lot of pro-war people some other major crisis to hang on to. This new crisis in their heads over-rides terrorism, as it rightly should.

Absolutely. That's why they came up with "pro-choice" because it doesn't reference the word abortion. Abortion is a negative connotation and would be too harsh. There's a ton of them that disguises the actual meaning. "Comprehensive" Immigration Reform (Amnesty), Collateral Damage (Deaths of innocent civilians), etc.

Like you stated, it's all propaganda. A play on words but extremely effective. We should try to come up with a few words like that in our campaign. Especially for anti-war. I actually think that's a silly reference anyway. I mean, who (other than the military industrial complex) actually LIKES war? We all want peace, but if you say you're pro-peace, your a tree huging Liberal. SEE how we've all been conditioned??? I actually find it quite fascinating.

[libertygrl]

One of the toughest nuts to crack that we have with a lot of the Republican/conservative voters is the "war" issue. The neocons continue to refer to this nation building as the "Iraqi war" and continue to proffer the rally cry that we must "win the war." They do this to instill a false sense of patriotic obligation that is still playing very well with many Republican and conservative voters.

Let's stop letting the neocons dictate the false terminology on this issue. The Truth is there is no war. We won the war four years ago. We conquered the Iraqi military four years ago. What we have now in the Iraqi nation building is an "Iraqi Foreign Aid Project" or rather an "Iraqi Foreign Aid Boondoggle." Let's call it what it truly is, an "Iraqi Foreign Aid Project."

If we reject the neocon position that "we are in a war," and instead use more truthful language that we are really in a "Giant Iraqi Foreign Aid Boondoggle" we break the neocons false hold on many American's patriotic sense of obligation that they must support the war -- that we must win.


Most conservative Republicans tend to automatically have a gut rejection of any foreign aid. Show them that the Iraq situation is simply a giant foreign aid boondoggle.

I have begun using this tactic with Republicans and conservatives that are diehard war supporters and have already had some "aha" moments and eye openings, and even a couple conversions. I tell them we are not at war. We already conquered Iraq four years ago. What we have now is simply a Giant Foreign Aid Boondoggle to build an foreign nation courtesy of American taxpayers, while neglecting our own borders. We still haven't built but 17 new miles of wall on our southern border.

You make some great points. However, one of the things that trips me up is when they say what about the Iraqi citizens? Someone asked me - So, are we just going to "cut and run?" It doesn't matter why we went in. We're in there now. It will be a bloodbath if we leave. Do you want that on your conscious? This is what has been fed to them.

But I think there are actually several layers to this. You have those who are extremely fearful about the terrorists and are under the false pretense that we are there so that they don't come over here.

Then you have people who believe that Christianity and Western civilization are under threat by Muslim extremists who want to turn our countries into Islamic states.

Then of course you have those who know, or who have had loved ones killed over there and believe that leaving would mean their deaths were in vain. That's probably the toughest one. It's terribly sad.

[Goldwater Conservative]

You make some great points. However, one of the things that trips me up is when they say what about the Iraqi citizens? Someone asked me - So, are we just going to "cut and run?" It doesn't matter why we went in. We're in there now. It will be a bloodbath if we leave. Do you want that on your conscious? This is what has been fed to them.

For that we can now point out that violence in Basra dropped by 90% after the British left.


Then of course you have those who know, or who have had loved ones killed over there and believe that leaving would mean their deaths were in vain. That's probably the toughest one. It's terribly sad.

I think the best retort to that is to point out that staying just so the deaths weren't in vain only means more deaths. A vicious cycle with no end in sight ensues. Wars and occupations should be extremely well-justified, and saving face doesn't cut it.

[shortna]

Why isn't this thread sticky?!? This is the best idea that I have heard regarding conversion of pro-war republican's and neo cons!!!11

[shortna]

Why isn't this thread sticky?!? This is the best idea that I have heard regarding conversion of pro-war republican's and neo cons!!!11

[shortna]

bump!!!!!

[StephanieRelfe]

Here's another article in the same vein, called "Do the Math - Why Ron Paul is the Best Choice".

Note: Ron Paul wants to end all income tax. Currently income tax provides about 40% of the governments income. This money can come by bringing ALL troops home - including the 60,000 still left in Germany from the Second World War. That would save around one trillion dollars a year.

The Nolan Chart's Michael McDonnough wrote about Ron Paul and why he's the only smart vote:

Source: http://www.nolanchart.com/article312.html

"Do the Math. Why Ron Paul is the Best Choice for President"

Total withholdings on $280 per week $7 per hour wage earner.
Federal Tax $27.17
FICA $17.36
Medicare $4.06

Source;http://www.pensoft.com/taxcalc.asp

That leaves this worker only $231.14 take home pay and if this worker works like most then he is going to put in at least 50 weeks in a year for an annual take home pay for this worker of $11,557.00 If this worker votes for Ron Paul for President and then had the nanny state off his back and could keep his little contribution what would it mean to him. It would mean an extra $2,443.00 that this worker could have held onto and perhaps saved for a down payment on a car or other items. This money likely would go into the local economy. There are lots of wage earners in this nation and they can all vote by the way.

In an area with say 500,000 wage earners residences which is pretty typical of the medium US city, and the median annual household income is let's say $35,000, and if Ron Paul was elected President that would mean that each household would have an extra $4,939.92 that would likely go into their local economy or saved in their local bank. That would mean that this medium US city of 500,000 wage earner households would have an added $2,469,960,000 injected into their local economy annually. That is a big number.

That gives you an idea of the power of Ron Paul's ideas. If we can opt out of this wasteful centralized federal payroll taxation system it would inject billions of dollars every year pumped into the local economy in every city of every state in the nation. Every little city of 1-2 million people would have an added annual income in the billions of dollars.

What could it do to your little city if it had an extra 2 or 3 billion dollars to spend on your own city and your own people every year? How many new businesses would it create? Perhaps your city could repair its own roads and bridges. Perhaps it could build a new airport to deal with all the new business created by all this extra local money.

That is the power of Ron Paul's ideas as applied to this nation. Billions of extra dollars annually for every little to medium town and city and more like extra 10's of billions of local dollars for every major city in the nation.


Stephanie Relfe
Health, Wealth & Happiness
www.Relfe.com

[shortna]

:)

[Highstreet]

bump

[jmdrake]

One problem though is then when they turn on their televisions and see Ron Paul in a debate going on about how the war was illegitimate or unconstitutional and that we have no business being there. That makes me cringe a little.

For many of those people it brings back that strong, angry, gut reaction to want to shut the guy up for questioning the authority of the U.S. to do what it wants in the world and of the worthiness of the cause for which our troops are fighting and dying.

I kind of wish Paul would stick to a more nuanced approach like you talk about here. I tend to think that would be more effective in a GOP primary. Then he can open up the issue more if he gets the nomination.

The last thing that Ron Paul needs to do is to shy away from his own record. People like Ron Paul because he is a straight talker and they trust him. And like it or not the war in Iraq is one of the top issues in the race. What do you want him to say? "I know you asked me about the Iraq war...but let's look at this fancy chart?" The last person to rely heavily on charts in a debate was Ross Perot. Need I say more? Also the war issue plays more than one way. I wouldn't be in this campaign if it wasn't for Ron Paul's position on the war. IMO the nuanced approach is good for one on one as described by the OP. It would also be good in interview formats. (Like if Ron Paul ever goes on Glen Beck.)


Regards,

John M. Drake

[EonBlue]

So a neo-con at work converted himself to a Ron Paul supporter all on his own today. It was great and I was proud. We were discussing the inevitability of Hillary getting the democratic nomination which scares the crap out of him more than terrorists and the middle east. Then the question about Dr. Paul running third party and crippling the Republican vote in the general election came up (he loves Fox News and the stupid msm so he thinks there is a good chance that will happen even though he's just brainwashed from seeing that question asked so many times).
He put 1 and 2 together and said “so the only responsible thing to do is vote for Ron Paul so that doesn't happen!”. I almost feel over in my chair.

[torchbearer]

So a neo-con at work converted himself to a Ron Paul supporter all on his own today. It was great and I was proud. We were discussing the inevitability of Hillary getting the democratic nomination which scares the crap out of him more than terrorists and the middle east. Then the question about Dr. Paul running third party and crippling the Republican vote in the general election came up (he loves Fox News and the stupid msm so he thinks there is a good chance that will happen even though he's just brainwashed from seeing that question asked so many times).
He put 1 and 2 together and said “so the only responsible thing to do is vote for Ron Paul so that doesn't happen!”. I almost feel over in my chair.

Sounds like he's got some common sense and logic. The only way to beat hillary is with Ron Paul because if you don't nominate Ron Paul, the GOP vote will be split and hillary will win.

The perfect argument for any neocon...

[noztnac]

Neocons? I've just been cutting their throats and dragging them off in the woods.

Your idea is much less complicated. :D

[shortna]

Neocons? I've just been cutting their throats and dragging them off in the woods.

Your idea is much less complicated. :D

LMAO!