Public School Student's right to property

[Shinerxx]

I teach at a public high school and this year the school administration is really hammering student cell phone use. The school administration is pushing teachers and staff to confiscate all cell phones used during school hours. I believe the push against cell phone use is due to the recent news about young people using cell phones for sexual purposes. The phones are then searched for incriminating files and returned to parents. I decided not to comply with what I view as a direct violation of my student's rights. I explained to my students why I refused to "steal" their property however they still are not allowed to use their cell phones during our class. I thought perhaps naively that by respecting their rights, unlike my colleagues, I would earn the student's respect as well. Now the student produced school newspaper wants to interview me about my views. I enjoy my job and am scared of a potential crap storm with my colleagues and the administration if my views are published. Should I refuse the interview to avoid rocking the boat, or give liberty a foothold in my school?

Shiner

[Objectivist]

You have valid concerns with the establishment and I bet a good number of parents would support you and communicate with you more often knowing you are not a Nazi-Teacher.

It all comes down to weighing your personal values and the meaning of your value system. Have you probed other teachers for feedback?

I commend you as I told my daughter to refuse any and all searches, like the one where they tell you to leave your coat and bag in the classroom while they bring Fido in to sniff everyones stuff, of course the kids are all waiting in the hall.

[slothman]

Luckely I didn't have that when I went to school.
I would stand your ground.
Of course you might get fired so you have to think of that.
If you have another job lined up then it would be easier.

[Objectivist]

What is the school policy of direct mailing a letter explaining your position to the parents. And I hate to say Union, but are you a member of a Union? I think they have legal reps that could answer the question... I'd prefer you ask a private attorney over a Union attorney.

[dannno]

Wow, that's great you are standing up for student's rights like that.

It's easy for us to tell you to fight, although I think you should.. perhaps you should discuss your perspective with administration and perhaps they will reconsider the policy before publishing your views in the paper and getting the student body all riled up?

If they refuse, it'd be cool if you did the story..

So are you saying that kids can't use phones during recess??

[specsaregood]

I believe the push against cell phone use is due to the recent news about young people using cell phones for sexual purposes. The phones are then searched for incriminating files and returned to parents.

Hrm, sounds like there are some perverts in charge and they want to have an excuse to find underage porn, make a copy for themselves and then get the kids in trouble.

[sparebulb]

I also commend you on your principles. However, I advise that you not grant an interview on the topic. Management will consider that to be flaunting insubordination. You don't need the trouble and the students will not understand or appreciate your potential loss of your job. Keep doing what you are doing and settle in for the long fight, not the short one.

[Reason]

I would fight.

[Andrew-Austin]

You could put a spin on the interview that would be perceived more positively by your fellow staffers.

You could say you agree with the sentiments of your colleagues regarding the problem of cell phone usage in class (and students using for sexy talk?), but say you simply disagree with them on the solution to the problem, and that it is quite simply immoral to confiscate student's cell phones if they are being responsible about it (like just using them between classes to call parents).

But it would be perfectly understandable if you just declined to do the interview, if you think it would get you in real trouble. So long as you are not randomly confiscating phones like the rest of the school that is great..

[Conza88]

I teach at a public high school and this year the school administration is really hammering student cell phone use. The school administration is pushing teachers and staff to confiscate all cell phones used during school hours. I believe the push against cell phone use is due to the recent news about young people using cell phones for sexual purposes. The phones are then searched for incriminating files and returned to parents. I decided not to comply with what I view as a direct violation of my student's rights. I explained to my students why I refused to "steal" their property however they still are not allowed to use their cell phones during our class. I thought perhaps naively that by respecting their rights, unlike my colleagues, I would earn the student's respect as well. Now the student produced school newspaper wants to interview me about my views. I enjoy my job and am scared of a potential crap storm with my colleagues and the administration if my views are published. Should I refuse the interview to avoid rocking the boat, or give liberty a foothold in my school?

Shiner

Well the issue is private property. A private school could legitimately say.. there will be no phones on this property. Those that are, will be confiscated until the end of the day etc.

I guess you'd need to get the child to sign the contract though, not the parents. To make it legit. Also need a property transfer title in there. Anyway, I digress.

The issue is the public school is illegitimate, and that since it is run by the government essentially, they must choose to allocate it's resources and criteria etc.

Someone always loses. i.e "Prayer in school, or not in school". The issue is completely irrelevent... GET RID OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS, that solves the problem.

PROPERTY holders / OWNERS set the rules.

Would I advocate the above position and you to defend it? Probably not.. lol

[Mini-Me]

Well the issue is private property. A private school could legitimately say.. there will be no phones on this property. Those that are, will be confiscated until the end of the day etc.

I guess you'd need to get the child to sign the contract though, not the parents. To make it legit. Also need a property transfer title in there. Anyway, I digress.

The issue is the public school is illegitimate, and that since it is run by the government essentially, they must choose to allocate it's resources and criteria etc.

Someone always loses. i.e "Prayer in school, or not in school". The issue is completely irrelevent... GET RID OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS, that solves the problem.

PROPERTY holders / OWNERS set the rules.

Would I advocate the above position and you to defend it? Probably not.. lol

Although I agree with getting rid of public schools, I think the real issue in this context is compulsory schooling: If you can't afford private schools, and you can't jump through all the legal hoops required to homeschool, your kids are going to public school whether they like it or not...where they will be summarily deprived of their possessions at the whim of administrators, strip-searched for over-the-counter painkillers, etc. :rolleyes: Get rid of compulsory schooling and the issue becomes much less important, even if public schools still exist.

At the same time though, I think this issue is bigger than just public vs. private schools as well: Even if this were a private school, a concerned teacher would still have all the reason in the world to fight the administration over draconian policies and try to reverse them, whether they were written into a contract or not. Just because you oppose government coercion doesn't mean you should literally endorse just any technically non-violent action, and just because you can legally write ridiculous clauses into contracts doesn't mean you should or that it's a particularly nice thing to do. (Plus, from a free market perspective, anyone inside an organization fighting against ridiculous contract clauses is ultimately doing that organization a favor). More importantly, consider the fact that there are currently a lot of stupid laws on the books that can get kids into legal trouble for stupid mistakes that aren't hurting anyone (e.g. "sexting"). By potentially working as an enforcement agent for such laws, even private schools would be aiding and abetting state violence.

In response to the OP: Honestly, whether or not you should take the interview depends on what it's worth to you and what it might cost you. What's the climate like at your school? It might be a good idea to casually mention the interview in the teacher's lounge or something and see if the other teachers seem more intrigued and amused or more scolding. If you're confident in your views and other teachers would rather back you up than the administration, I'd say go for it...but if you're liable to get fired, it depends on whether this is where you want to make your "last stand." I wouldn't blame you either way. If the school administration were merely asking teachers to confiscate phones from distracted/distracting students and return them after class, that would be one thing, and I'd say, "Live to fight another day," without reservation. However, searching students' phones for incriminating files crosses the line in my opinion, and it's a completely unjustified - and just plain creepy - abuse of power...ESPECIALLY considering all the stupid laws on the books and the legal trouble some of your kids could get in.

[Conza88]

Although I agree with getting rid of public schools, I think the real issue in this context is compulsory schooling: If you can't afford private schools, and you can't jump through all the legal hoops required to homeschool, your kids are going to public school whether they like it or not...where they will be summarily deprived of their possessions at the whim of administrators, strip-searched for over-the-counter painkillers, etc. :rolleyes:

That' be another angle yes. I'm assuming that if there ever was a situation where there is a state and no public schools, that there wouldn't be an income tax either, or many other taxes. Since public education / indoctrination is VITALLY important to the state. So in essence, private schools (all schools / education centers) there would be prolific competition and thus cheaper.

But you are right, compulsory attendance is slavery.


Get rid of compulsory schooling and the issue becomes much less important, even if public schools still exist. At the same time though, I think this issue is bigger than just public vs. private schools as well: Even if this were a private school, a concerned teacher would have every reason to fight the administration over draconian policies and try to reverse them, whether they were written into a contract or not. More importantly, consider the fact that there are currently a lot of stupid laws on the books that can get kids into legal trouble for stupid mistakes that aren't hurting anyone (e.g. "sexting"). By potentially working as an enforcement agent for such laws, even private schools would be aiding and abetting state violence.

Yes, which is why you should get rid of the state. Why type of law is it? Positivist.

If a private school makes up a rule about those on its property have to abide by, and it is going to be contractual, you can use many ways to try counter act it. Ala protests, petitions, boycotts, moral condemnation, ostracization etc. Try get them to change it, i.e appeal to the property owners legitimately.

Ultimately, let the market work. Leave. And go to a new school. Homeschool until they change it. Whatever[/QUOTE]

[BuddyRey]

First of all, way to go! I would have been proud to have a teacher like you in high school!

My recommendation would be to contact FIRE - the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education.

http://www.thefire.org/

And a call to the Institute for Justice wouldn't hurt either.

http://www.ij.org/

[Bman]

Ahh Highschool. I don't know if I'd do the interview with the students. I may suggest that if the can get local news coverage that you'd be happy to speak to a group that wouldn't have a conflict of interest (such as the students have personal opinions to the situation and may be too emotional in their reporting).

It's obvious the state goes too far in school. They tried to go too far when I was a student, but my dad is/was one of the best people I know at telling the state where to stick it. More parents need to tell the state where to stick it when it comes to their children in particular.

[Conza88]

YouTube - Dismantle Public Education (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swl8frWSNEQ)

For a New Liberty - Chapter 7: Education (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#p119)

http://mises.org/literature.aspx?action=subject&ID=133

Education: Free and Compulsory by Murray Rothbard (http://mises.org/story/2226)

Free-Market Education (http://mises.org/story/3250)

[Bman]

YouTube - Dismantle Public Education (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swl8frWSNEQ)

For a New Liberty - Chapter 7: Education (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#p119)

http://mises.org/literature.aspx?action=subject&ID=133

Education: Free and Compulsory by Murray Rothbard (http://mises.org/story/2226)

Free-Market Education (http://mises.org/story/3250)

Neat video. I have a lot of friends that are teacher's on facebook. Lets see how many I can get to bite.

[KCIndy]

I teach at a public high school and this year the school administration is really hammering student cell phone use. The school administration is pushing teachers and staff to confiscate all cell phones used during school hours. I believe the push against cell phone use is due to the recent news about young people using cell phones for sexual purposes. The phones are then searched for incriminating files and returned to parents. I decided not to comply with what I view as a direct violation of my student's rights. I explained to my students why I refused to "steal" their property however they still are not allowed to use their cell phones during our class. I thought perhaps naively that by respecting their rights, unlike my colleagues, I would earn the student's respect as well. Now the student produced school newspaper wants to interview me about my views. I enjoy my job and am scared of a potential crap storm with my colleagues and the administration if my views are published. Should I refuse the interview to avoid rocking the boat, or give liberty a foothold in my school?

Shiner


Shiner,
No matter what you decide, let us know what happened and how things are turning out. You're in a tough spot, and I wish you the very best of outcomes!! :)

[Shinerxx]

I declined the interview with my school's paper. My school is a neoliberal mecca. The teacher I work most closely with is a self admitted socialist and last year jokingly threatened me if I did not vote Obama. I decided I would be most effective at spreading my liberty loving views if they were not published and made known to everyone. I imagine I wouldn't be fired but I would definitely have to explain myself to my boss and my lectures would be consequently silenced of all things liberty. I ride a fine line in my classroom trying to inject my opinions where needed coupled with logic and a smig of persuasion. I did send the student journalist a quote:

"It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority." Benjamin Franklin

Shiner

[SimpleName]

Gatto-esque. I love that guy. You keep fighting. Respect was a huge part of my anger with my schooling. Teachers frequently lacked all respect for students and expected the most grandiose respect in return. Keep up the fight. Just to know, what classes do you teach?

[Shinerxx]

I teach an advanced freshman level Biology course and a senior level Physics course. I have around 160 students in six sections.

[Conza88]

I teach an advanced freshman level Biology course and a senior level Physics course. I have around 160 students in six sections.

You could always digress about how economists try to apply physics and its methodology to the social sciences.... and fail remarkably.

Then highlight why.

The Mantle of Science
http://mises.org/rothbard/mantle.asp

:)

[SimpleName]

You could always digress about how economists try to apply physics and its methodology to the social sciences.... and fail remarkably.

Then highlight why.

The Mantle of Science
http://mises.org/rothbard/mantle.asp

:)

Perfect! Don't overdo it, but just work it in when it makes sense. Side note: Psychiatrists do the same thing.

[dannno]

Neat video. I have a lot of friends that are teacher's on facebook. Lets see how many I can get to bite.

Reel in any big ones?

[Bman]

Reel in any big ones?

If I did they didn't respond. A few of them are really progressive. I was talking to one the other week who told me how Buffet said all of the government spending was the right thing to do. The very next day there was an article of Buffet saying how if the government kept spending money like they were that they would collapse the dollar. Nothing but crickets.