Chomsky on Rothbard and Libertarianism

[Pennsylvania]

The American version of "libertarianism" is an aberration, though—nobody really takes it seriously. I mean, everybody knows that a society that worked by American libertarian principles would self-destruct in three seconds. The only reason people pretend to take it seriously is because you can use it as a weapon. Like, when somebody comes out in favor of a tax, you can say: "No, I'm a libertarian, I'm against that tax"—but of course, I'm still in favor of the government building roads, and having schools, and killing Libyans, and all that sort of stuff.

Now, there are consistent libertarians, people like Murray Rothbard—and if you just read the world that they describe, it's a world so full of hate that no human being would want to live in it. This is a world where you don't have roads because you don't see any reason why you should cooperate in building a road that you're not going to use: if you want a road, you get together with a bunch of other people who are going to use that road and you build it, then you charge people to ride on it. If you don't like the pollution from somebody's automobile, you take them to court and you litigate it. Who would want to live in a world like that? It's a world built on hatred.

The whole thing's not even worth talking about, though. First of all, it couldn't function for a second—and if it could, all you'd want to do is get out, or commit suicide or something. But this is a special American aberration, it's not really serious.

Source (http://www.distantocean.com/2008/04/chomsky-on-libe.html)

I almost laughed the first time I read this. WOW.

A world built on hatred?

Let's see...

Person A: Hey Person B, I own a spear that I fashioned all by myself out of an oak tree that I grew myself so that I could spear fish with it, LOL. It took me 8 hours to get it good enough for use, in addition to the massive amount of time and energy it took to produce the oak tree in the first place. Out of sheer insanity I make the claim that I should have exclusive decision-making authority over it since none of you Persons B, C, or D did squat to help me produce it. Isn't that nutty?
Person B: Hey Person A, why don't you let me use that spear to hunt fish for free? After all, if you didn't let me use it for free, wouldn't we just live in a world so full of hate that we'd all want to commit suicide?
Person A: Crap, you're right. Life totally wouldn't EVEN be worth living if I charged you such an exploitative and unreasonable rate like $5 per hour to use my spear. Here, take the spear for free, and if anything happens to it, I'll happily expend infinitely more time and labor producing spears that people can use and break for free. HAHA
Person B: Cool, after I'm done with your spear, wanna round up Person C and set fire to cars that people drive since property doesn't exist and they have no legal recourse against us?
Person A: LoL BRT





Is the Rothbardian world full of hate? Discuss...

[Imperial]

How is a governmental system full of any less hate?

I mean, it isn't that his point couldn't be valid in certain circumstances. The problem is it isn't unique to any one governmental system.

[Pennsylvania]

How is a governmental system full of any less hate?

I mean, it isn't that his point couldn't be valid in certain circumstances. The problem is it isn't unique to any one governmental system.

He doesn't advocate a governmental system (in theory). Though I do tend to hold that libertarian socialism requires a state apparatus to enforce its notions of non-exploitative exchange.

[Reason]

I don't understand where the "hatred" reference is coming from, and I don't we are going to understand it short of reading his book which I don't plan on doing at this second lol

[Pennsylvania]

I don't understand where the "hatred" reference is coming from, and I don't we are going to understand it short of reading his book which I don't plan on doing at this second lol


In the libertarian socialist view, I guess that non-cooperation = hatred. Not indifference, not disinterest, just pure unadulterated hatred. Laughable really :rolleyes:

[awake]

Yes, hate for wannabe tyrants, thiefs and plunderers in all forms. What Chompsky doesn't understand is this, human cooperation exists without the mighty hand of the gangvernment. He thinks, like many of his intellectual peers, that man guided not by God, or himself, but by the god state. It is by this arrangement in which his ilk can become the molders of men; in their image.

He is simply looking out for the sanctuary that is given to intellectuals by the state for the state.

[Conza88]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1649984&postcount=33
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=153224

Few things I would alter, but couldn't be...


Here is an article or interview or something i found of Noam Chomsky attacking "Right-Libertarianism," or whatever he likes to call True Libertarianism. I was wondering how you guys would refute this:

Man: What's the difference between "libertarian" and "anarchist," exactly?Libertarian: based on the non-aggression axiom + property rights.. the role of government is to protect the life, liberty and property of it's people.

Anarchist: well.. it depends on what type of anarchist.. You can have anarcho-capitalist, anarcho-communist (tribes)... basically it comes down to anarchy being without a state, or where it is only voluntary to support it, i.e via taxes etc. Since the state is theft, coercion, and violence - anarchists, well anarcho-capitalists don't want it at all, they contend it as evil - and thus should not be there.. while the minarchists / libertarians contend it is a necessary evil, and as such should be limited to as small as possible.

I'll assume when Chomsky means "anarchist" he's referring to anarcho-capitalists, as he does mention Rothbard. They believe in property rights and the non aggression axiom aswell.

Chomsky: There's no difference, really. I think they're the same thing. But you see, "libertarian" has a special meaning in the United States. The United States is off the spectrum of the main tradition in this respect: what's called "libertarianism" here is unbridled capitalism.

No, they are similar (obviously) but there is a difference. The libertarians believe in the state; just as small as possible. Anarcho-capitalists don't believe in the state. He goes for the linguistic approach, or definition - he just fails to recognise their true nature. Ignorance is what I believe it's called. ;) Unbridled capitalism? That'd be anarcho-capitalism.. The state is negative for libertarians; protect the life, liberty, property... so it steps in if those have been violated etc. Anyway; does he know what true capitalism is? OR does he think the current system is capitalism? :rolleyes:

Now, that's always been opposed in the European libertarian tradition, where every anarchist has been a socialist—because the point is, if you have unbridled capitalism, you have all kinds of authority: you have extreme authority.

He's mixing the terms. It's kind of odd, no doubt he is intelligent - he uses half truths for the set up, but the finale - is the lie or mistruth. The same with marxism etc in a way... you can clearly see there are classes in society; that's the set up, but the 'finale' is why that is, and their proposed solutions to rectify it etc all lead down the wrong path / direction, to a place you REALLY don't want to be.

"if you have unbridled capitalism, you have all kinds of authority: you have extreme authority"... say; unbridled capitalism (and I would REALLY like his definition of "capitalism") like does he know anything about subjective value, trade, positive sum game etc. etc... why is it a BAD thing to begin with? He is dissing economic freedom. The guys ignorant to the extreme. Authority is the state. With anarcho-capitalism, how you going to get extreme authority? :confused:

If capital is privately controlled, then people are going to have to rent themselves in order to survive. Now, you can say, "they rent themselves freely, it's a free contract"—but that's a joke. If your choice is, "do what I tell you or starve," that's not a choice—it's in fact what was commonly referred to as wage slavery in more civilized times, like the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, for example.
LOL! Chomsky would probably learn MORE from this comic book, than his entire studies in economics. How an Economy Grows (http://freedom-school.com/money/how-an-economy-grows.pdf) People can create their own capital, through sacrifice. Also, what's he mean by "Capital"? Factors of production, land and labor? or savings? He could be contending wealth? You can't control ALL labor. (capital) Labor is a product of your property (actions etc.) And if you're a libertarian or anarcho-capitalist - the state doesn't own your body.

You don't need to rent yourself to survive. Voluntarism is not a joke. You decide what you do with your labor and capital. Wage slavery in the 18th and 19th centuries - errrrr NOOooo, they CHOSE to work in factories etc, because according to their SUBJECTIVE value; they were better off doing so, than working the farm! This is the same contention Marx held, and the excuse is he had that view - because of the times... WHICH IS BULLSHIT.

Frederik Bastiat - wrote in the exact same period. He fken pwns Marx & that retarded notion.

The American version of "libertarianism" is an aberration, though—nobody really takes it seriously. I mean, everybody knows that a society that worked by American libertarian principles would self-destruct in three seconds. The only reason people pretend to take it seriously is because you can use it as a weapon. Like, when somebody comes out in favor of a tax, you can say: "No, I'm a libertarian, I'm against that tax"—but of course, I'm still in favor of the government building roads, and having schools, and killing Libyans, and all that sort of stuff.

Those who despise Liberty, sure do take it seriously... Look at how they treated the former "Libertarian" candidate. ;) "I mean, everybody knows that a society that worked by American libertarian principles would self-destruct in three seconds." In bold for the sheer retardedness of this statement. EVER heard of the US Constitution? :rolleyes: This clown really needs to go learn about the Gold Standard - and what it brings = PEACE for starters, among other things. As for his comment about for this; but not for this tax. (Really he should mean coercion) and that libertarians contend that it is ok in some places; roads etc etc. I would agree with this, I argued for privatising the roads with a NEO-con friend... he was like, "yeah that'd work, but it will never happen." :) Which is why I associate / label myself when I have to - as either a libertarian / minarchist / anarcho-capitalist... depending on how good I know the anarchists position / the level of knowledge of the people etc. Slapping someone in the face with anarcho-capitalism, isn't going to work - if they think the minimum wage is good, or that the role of government should be positive... Haha.... :p baby steps.

Now, there are consistent libertarians, people like Murray Rothbard—and if you just read the world that they describe, it's a world so full of hate that no human being would want to live in it. This is a world where you don't have roads because you don't see any reason why you should cooperate in building a road that you're not going to use: if you want a road, you get together with a bunch of other people who are going to use that road and you build it, then you charge people to ride on it. If you don't like the pollution from somebody's automobile, you take them to court and you litigate it. Who would want to live in a world like that? It's a world built on hatred.19
Consistent Libertarians - translation: anarcho-capitalists. Like Murry Rothbard. ;) Well, well, well - Chomsky shows his true colours. Typical socialist; thinks humanity - given the chance at voluntary action - would desolve into hatred. Wow... maybe he should elect himself as a social engineer? And run everyone's lives? :rolleyes: This is the most retarded analysis / commentary on privatizing roads that I have ever seen. The ONLY difference between that and a undergrad socialist tool, is that Chomsky has a reputation that lends his analysis credibility.

Want to know what'd happen in such a situation? Let's ask our old mate Rothbard. I'm certain Chomsky only dropped the name, so he could gain more credence for his "argument".

11 The Public Sector, II: Streets and Roads (http://mises.org/rothbard/newliberty10.asp), Audio (http://mises.org/media.aspx?action=category&ID=87).

The whole thing's not even worth talking about, though. First of all, it couldn't function for a second—and if it could, all you'd want to do is get out, or commit suicide or something. But this is a special American aberration, it's not really serious
His role: He brings the intelligent to the table with his foreign policy, which is usually the most obvious detriment of the state - WAR. As "War is the health of the state"... but what he does then, is after having a discussion with people, he leads them down a hallway, constantly whispering into their ears. Now - there are two doors present at the end of the corridor, "Socialism / collectivism" on the left, and "Liberty / Individualism", on the right. (Not trying to use false paradigm, but in terms of economic labelling, that's what the state likes to use - to keep you in the box - helping propel their notion that; if you like capitalism, you must like war etc etc. See how it works?) Anyway, Noam Chomsky presents both doors to you, the one marked Liberty has "Danger" written all over it etc, painted red, with black stains. The one on the left is clean, green and inviting. He doesn't essentially tell you which one to go into or adopt....
the choice is yours, but you've been prepped - and you just don't know it.

Thing is, it's just the door. Once you open it; that green and clean becomes red, and mean. That's the truth beneath the surface. The one marked Liberty / Individualism, opens up into green fields, and a clean environment. It is privately owned, the person cares about it. Public owned: - well why should "I" do it? :cool:

[stilltrying]

nice synopsis Conza. Way to break it down. Chomsky is a POS.

[mtj458]

Too many people confuse Libertarians with Anarchists. I'd bet most of the people on this forum are in favor of the government taking on some rolls such as police or roads. We just don't want it nearly to the extent that it is today.

[awake]

A world in which Rothabard describes would essentially be a world in which even Chomsky would be placed at the undiluted mercy of the market. Would he be as much an influence in that kind of world? Who knows, but it is certain, there would many powerful men, absent the protective cloak of government, humbled in an instant.

[Imperial]

He doesn't advocate a governmental system (in theory). Though I do tend to hold that libertarian socialism requires a state apparatus to enforce its notions of non-exploitative exchange.

I think more importantly, he thinks you could jump in the real-world from massively increasing the power of the state to eliminating the state apparatus entirely.

When he endorsed Obama last year, you know there are some serious flaws...

[Pennsylvania]

I think more importantly, he thinks you could jump in the real-world from massively increasing the power of the state to eliminating the state apparatus entirely.

When he endorsed Obama last year, you know there are some serious flaws...

Very true...

I believe the argument is that voting for more socialistic candidates has a more positive affect on the public consciousness. I.e. if socialistic structures such as social security are endorsed by a candidate, people will become more socially minded, such that when you remove the state, people will simply find non-authoritarian replacements for those former structures. Not a very convincing argument if you ask me...

[Conza88]

Too many people confuse Libertarians with Anarchists. I'd bet most of the people on this forum are in favor of the government taking on some rolls such as police or roads. We just don't want it nearly to the extent that it is today.

Libertarianism is the non aggression axiom (principle) + Lockean / Rothbardian Homesteading property rights. Those who do not apply this to everything and not consistent, nor principled. Those that do; are anarcho-capitalists.

You get a pass if you are a radical though, and hate the state... and call it out for what it is.

Do You Hate the State? by Murray N. Rothbard (http://lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard75.html)


"Where are the Paines and Cobdens and Nocks of today? Why are almost all of our laissez-faire limited governmentalists plonky conservatives and patriots? If the opposite of "radical" is "conservative," where are our radical laissez-fairists? If our limited statists were truly radical, there would be virtually no splits between us. What divides the movement now, the true division, is not anarchist vs. minarchist, but radical vs. conservative. Lord, give us radicals, be they anarchists or no."

...

"Many people have wondered: Why should there be any important political disputes between anarcho-capitalists and minarchists now? In this world of statism, where there is so much common ground, why can’t the two groups work in complete harmony until we shall have reached a Cobdenite world, after which we can air our disagreements? Why quarrel over courts, etc. now? The answer to this excellent question is that we could and would march hand-in-hand in this way if the minarchists were radicals, as they were from the birth of classical liberalism down to the 1940s. Give us back the antistatist radicals, and harmony would indeed reign triumphant within the movement."

[hugolp]

This piece is pure stupidity.

This is why I dont like the main-stream lefties. They are liers and manipulators. The left should try to do better.

[heavenlyboy34]

lolz @ Chomsky's ignorance! I've talked to several people lately on boards who think like that-it's pretty pathetic.

[BillyDkid]

In the libertarian socialist view, I guess that non-cooperation = hatred. Not indifference, not disinterest, just pure unadulterated hatred. Laughable really :rolleyes:
Libertarians don't oppose co-operation. They oppose forced co-operation.

[Pennsylvania]

Libertarians don't oppose co-operation. They oppose forced co-operation.

That's the point I was making.