Do not join the military and become the evil state's slave

[TheConstitutionLives]

In an effort to not hijack a previous thread I'll respond here:


For someone using that screen name maybe you should read the Constitution and take note the part of maintaining a Navy. SO with your comment the Constitution is dead to you.

Middle of Section 8.
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.txt


I'm well aware of what is legal under the constitution. There is very little our military is used for that's constitutional though. With that said I wouldn't voluntarily become their slave to which they WILL undoubtedly use me unconstitutionally. Nevermind we're F'ing BROKE. I don't want to further indebt my children to Chinese loans so noble people can be used by the state as cannon fodder to protect oil fields for Saudi Kings.


"I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.” - Major General Smedley Butler USMC

[Pericles]

Or, you could join and learn some skills that will be more useful in maintaining freedom, than posts on Internet boards.

[StudentForPaul08]

I was thinking of joining due to personal benefits and why not get trained to use a weapon and tactics to know how to defend yourself and family later in life?

[TheConstitutionLives]

Or, you could join and learn some skills that will be more useful in maintaining freedom, than posts on Internet boards.

and maybe if you're lucky they'll send you over to murder some Arabs.

[mport1]

We are already all slaves to the state, although somebody in the military is more of a slave. Other reasons why people should not to join the military would be so that their salaries are not payed for through violence and so they do not engage in murder or agression against innocent people.

[Objectivist]

So making the members of the military unemployed is your wonderful solution? I agree that the military is being used for things that are or could be deemed UN-COnstitutional, that is no reason to condemn the military that is called for under the US Constitution as I pointed out in Section 8.

Punish those that give the orders, which by the way comes from politicians.

The military serves the needs of many people that could not otherwise afford an education, all under the warm fuzzy blanket of the United States Constitution.

How do feel about Dr. Paul being a military flight surgeon many years ago?

[Objectivist]

On another note, I'd much rather have a young man from the other thread as a member of the military than one APPOINTED by Obama's Gestapo..:eek: At least I know that there is a level of reason and the idea of questioning UNLAWFUL orders is in their mind. You don't get that with the Waffen SS or Obamabots.

You want to fight like you mean it? Stop paying your taxes and show me what a man you are.

[Objectivist]

I bet you don't mind me being burdened by paying for your kids education though.

[Pericles]

and maybe if you're lucky they'll send you over to murder some Arabs.

An observation based on your personal experience, or what you heard from somebody who has a cousin who herad about it from someone who saw it on TV?

[Objectivist]

An observation based on your personal experience, or what you heard from somebody who has a cousin who herad about it from someone who saw it on TV?

Change your name to "Priceless" +1.00

[nobody's_hero]

Even General Robert E. Lee attended a Federal military school, and served in the "Union" army before there was a Confederate army. Kudos to anyone who joins and 'bears true faith and allegiance to the Constitution.'

[phill4paul]

Do not join the military and become the evil state's slave

What do you do when people ignore you?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=208135&highlight=ignore

[heavenlyboy34]

So making the members of the military unemployed is your wonderful solution? I agree that the military is being used for things that are or could be deemed UN-COnstitutional, that is no reason to condemn the military that is called for under the US Constitution as I pointed out in Section 8.

Punish those that give the orders, which by the way comes from politicians.

The military serves the needs of many people that could not otherwise afford an education, all under the warm fuzzy blanket of the United States Constitution.

How do feel about Dr. Paul being a military flight surgeon many years ago?

If college weren't federally subsidized and artificially inflated, there would be no need for a G.I. bill. (students could pay for it themselves, the old fashioned way) Even better than punishing the politicians is dismissing them, dismantling the warfare/welfare State and moving to a private system of defense, but that's a matter for another thread. :cool:

[heavenlyboy34]

I was thinking of joining due to personal benefits and why not get trained to use a weapon and tactics to know how to defend yourself and family later in life?


Because you could find a private company that offers this training and not subsidize the State, I would say. :cool:

[Objectivist]

"..the evil slave state...." I bet you pay a bunch of taxes huh? Therefor you'd be a SLAVE. How's that chain scar doing on your ankle?

[StudentForPaul08]

Because you could find a private company that offers this training and not subsidize the State, I would say. :cool:

Well I am 20. unemployed. And college is looking dim. So the military is not all to bad. (Though i pretty much have a job in the bag thankfully!)

:o

[Objectivist]

Well I am 20. unemployed. And college is looking dim. So the military is not all to bad. (Though i pretty much have a job in the bag thankfully!)

:o

You seem to be an intelligent kid have you ever thought of taking the ASVAB just for kicks? Then the Navy has a very good Nuclear Training Program that might cost the average Joe too much in the outside world. I know many nuke trained personnel that went on to great private sector jobs in the field.

[StudentForPaul08]

You seem to be an intelligent kid have you ever thought of taking the ASVAB just for kicks? Then the Navy has a very good Nuclear Training Program that might cost the average Joe too much in the outside world. I know many nuke trained personnel that went on to great private sector jobs in the field.

Funny thing is a friend of mine told me to do that just to see. At this point I will not. If things are not looking up by the end of the year I will probably begin to think about doing so. :o

[Sandman33]

I would never join the U.S. military for a few reasons.

1. I only want to protect and serve MY country, not invade another one or protect another one for that matter.

2. Once you sign up you ARE property of the U.S. govt and can be use like a damn guinna pig...agent orange, gulf war syndrome, the LSD testing on soldiers, etc, etc, etc, The elite that REALLY run this country honestly do view you as cattle.

[Bman]

Recruitment officers couldn't promise me the oppurtunities I wanted to make the military worth joining. That doesn't mean they cannot offer oppurtunities that would satisfy someone else.

Plenty of good people have served in our military, including the man who brought us all together.

[TheConstitutionLives]

Punish those that give the orders, which by the way comes from politicians.

The military serves the needs of many people that could not otherwise afford an education


- Under that premise we shouldn't be punishing anyone in the military for anything, only the politicians. Those CIA operatives who tortured ALLEGED terrorists should get a free pass I guess b/c Hey, they were just following orders. Hogwash.

- As for the other thing you posted there; that sounds like typical welfare advocacy. "We don't really NEED these men in uniform to defend our shores from invading armies. No, we just want to help those who can't afford an education by taking the money from the taxpayer or indebting the taxpayer even further to China." LMAO!

[TheConstitutionLives]

Even General Robert E. Lee attended a Federal military school, and served in the "Union" army before there was a Confederate army. Kudos to anyone who joins and 'bears true faith and allegiance to the Constitution.'

- I don't see many officers refusing to follow unconstitutional orders.

[TheConstitutionLives]

You want to fight like you mean it? Stop paying your taxes and show me what a man you are.

- That's a cheesy and well overplayed non-argument.

As Robert Higgs would say "I'm not going to simply sink and drown b/c I find that I'm in a cesspool."

[TheConstitutionLives]

How do feel about Dr. Paul being a military flight surgeon many years ago?

- I like Doug Stanhope's philosophy on the military. You should be able to quit at any time. That way you have to really believe in what you're doing. They have to actually sell you on the war.

As for Paul, I feel as though he should not have served. I feel that he wouldn't have done it knowing what he knows now. Why do you think he personally requested Aimmee Allen sing "Universal Soldier" at his rally?



He's five feet two and he's six feet four
He fights with missiles and with spears
He's all of 31 and he's only 17
He's been a soldier for a thousand years

He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jain,
a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
and he knows he shouldn't kill
and he knows he always will
kill you for me my friend and me for you

And he's fighting for Canada,
he's fighting for France,
he's fighting for the USA,
and he's fighting for the Russians
and he's fighting for Japan,
and he thinks we'll put an end to war this way

And he's fighting for Democracy
and fighting for the Reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide
who's to live and who's to die
and he never sees the writing on the walls

But without him how would Hitler have
condemned him at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body
as a weapon to a war
and without him all this killing can't go on

He's the universal soldier and he
really is to blame
His orders come from far away no more
They come from him, and you, and me
and brothers can't you see
this is not the way we put an end to war.

[JeNNiF00F00]

I would never join the U.S. military for a few reasons.

1. I only want to protect and serve MY country, not invade another one or protect another one for that matter.

2. Once you sign up you ARE property of the U.S. govt and can be use like a damn guinna pig...agent orange, gulf war syndrome, the LSD testing on soldiers, etc, etc, etc, The elite that REALLY run this country honestly do view you as cattle.

Hah! Something we finally agree upon!

[TheConstitutionLives]

I bet you don't mind me being burdened by paying for your kids education though.


You must've forgot where you're at. Yeah, I mind. I wouldn't be a member of this board since its inception if I felt it moral and/or legal for you to pay for socialized education. This is a very freedom/constitutional/libertarian leaning forum. You should know better who you're talking to on here. Maybe it's b/c you joined only 5 months ago.

[TheConstitutionLives]

This all reminds me of a recent blog entry on Rockwell:

Temper That Freedom of Speech
Posted by Lew Rockwell on June 4, 2009 05:06 PM

Writes a soldier:

I’m a Christian and a soldier. I take offense from your writings. I believe in freedom of speech, but that comes with the responsibilty [sic] of tempering it as well. You make it sound like soldiers are evil murderers. Who do you think protects your right to free speach [sic]? Who do you think lays [sic] their lives on the line every day for people like you who don’t appreciate the sacrifice that soldiers make for you and your family. You may not agree with the War in Iraq, but that doesn’t mean you have to treat soldiers like they are evil. I hope that one day you rot in Hell.



I replied:

Sir, do you really think that Bush or Obama can give you the right, and absolve you of the sin, of killing innocent people? That category includes not just civilians, by the way, but also soldiers defending their country from foreign invaders. I hope that one day you go to Heaven.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/27079.html

[Objectivist]

- Under that premise we shouldn't be punishing anyone in the military for anything, only the politicians. Those CIA operatives who tortured ALLEGED terrorists should get a free pass I guess b/c Hey, they were just following orders. Hogwash.

- As for the other thing you posted there; that sounds like typical welfare advocacy. "We don't really NEED these men in uniform to defend our shores from invading armies. No, we just want to help those who can't afford an education by taking the money from the taxpayer or indebting the taxpayer even further to China." LMAO!

Yeah, the politicians that have to declare war under the War Powers Resolution. You know Congress?

CIA "operatives" just made my case as to you not knowing crap.

Educating people in the case of military personnel is a bi-product of a Constitutional requirement. I'm not for public education being paid for via taxpayer dollars but when you raise and Army or Navy then you have to train them. That training is a wonderful opportunity for higher learning by those that might not ever get it.

"Torture" WTF is "torture"? Then when you're a "I hate the United States" kinda guy, it's not surprising. Lose your screen name, you don't deserve it.

[Objectivist]

- That's a cheesy and well overplayed non-argument.

As Robert Higgs would say "I'm not going to simply sink and drown b/c I find that I'm in a cesspool."

It is actually the point, and you don't have the strength of conviction to man up and stop paying.... put your money where your mouth is. Until then you'd be paying for the military and everything else you might not like.

In this case you hate something that is Constitutional. "dichotomy".

Oh and on the rest of your jacking other peoples words.... do you have any thoughts of your own or are you going to plagiarize everyone else? Now go watch "Good Will Hunting"

[devil21]

Pertinent thread for me tonite. I just finished watching the 3.5hrs of Apocalypse Now Redux and if that movie is anywhere near accurate then yeah don't join the military. One of the darkest parts of my personal life involved an abusive ex-military man that served in Vietnam. Maybe that makes me biased. Or maybe it makes me aware of what it can turn people into.

[Objectivist]

Pertinent thread for me tonite. I just finished watching the 3.5hrs of Apocalypse Now Redux and if that movie is anywhere near accurate then yeah don't join the military. One of the darkest parts of my personal life involved an abusive ex-military man that served in Vietnam. Maybe that makes me biased. Or maybe it makes me aware of what it can turn people into.

And Kurtz was AWOL, not really in the military at that point, but that's HOLLYWOOD!

[nobody's_hero]

- I don't see many officers refusing to follow unconstitutional orders.

Sure you don't. That's why we need officers to join up who will.

But keep in mind that Ron Paul's campaign drew more donations from military officers than—if I recall correctly—all other candidates combined. That's a good sign.

[ResistTemptation]

This:

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." Matthew 6:24.

I have respect for our servicemen. That said, I pray for their souls. They are torn between serving the Almighty Creator and serving the evil interests of the state.

[Pericles]

Sure you don't. That's why we need officers to join up who will.

But keep in mind that Ron Paul's campaign drew more donations from military officers than—if I recall correctly—all other candidates combined. That's a good sign.

After serving the initial obligation, officers can resign from active duty, and depending on time served, totally end active duty commitments. That is what you do when being given an order that can not be obeyed. Look at the rate of officer separations, if they still publish the numbers. At one point about 40% of the Army captains were quitting.

You don't think the Army fired me, do you?

[Pericles]

Because you could find a private company that offers this training and not subsidize the State, I would say. :cool:

Some individual training is as far as you could get. Any really good training would be very expensive because of the investment required for a sufficient quantity of armored vehicles and artillery. Not to mention that to be any good, the instructors would need to have relevant experience. How many places are going to be able to conduct combined arms operations, with appropriate air and logistical support of the type needed for military operations of any scale?

Historically, this is why the militia concept in the USA died. It is hard to build and train a unit any larger than a company on a part time basis. Going as far back as the Mexican War, the main weakness in the US Army has been the ability to expand to the necessary size during war and have competent officers who could manage the additional complexity of large organizations, having no experience of anything on that scale. Even in Gulf I, when the Guard units were activated, there was still a considerable training period to ensure that they could operate as brigades - now handled in true PC fashion by making brigades smaller, and thus easier to command.

[StayTrue]

For those bringing up Ron being in the military, wasnt he drafted?

[tremendoustie]

I was thinking of joining due to personal benefits and why not get trained to use a weapon and tactics to know how to defend yourself and family later in life?

Please, please do not join. As a member of the military, the federal government can tell you when and where to kill. Placing such extremely important moral decisions in the hands of the state is beyond foolish.

[Objectivist]

For those bringing up Ron being in the military, wasnt he drafted?

Yes he was and on another note he voted to go after Al Queda. He has also voted for military funding.

[tmosley]

ITT Objectivist shows once again that he doesn't understand Objectivism.

Soldiers don't produce anything. They should lose their jobs, as worthless as they are. We can't afford to support any more slaves, especially not armed ones in foreign lands.

[Objectivist]

ITT Objectivist shows once again that he doesn't understand Objectivism.

Soldiers don't produce anything. They should lose their jobs, as worthless as they are. We can't afford to support any more slaves, especially not armed ones in foreign lands.

Actually Soldiers do produce something..... I know I did.

This isn't an argument about our soldiers being in foreign lands, it's about the fact that the United States Constitution calls for a Navy. What the assholes in government have done with our military is the unConstitutional part.

Strawman!

[TheConstitutionLives]

Actually Soldiers do produce something..... I know I did.

- what?

[TinCanToNA]

There is only one issue to consider here:
If the only people that join the military are the ones that do not care about the Constitution, then there will never be any dutiful resistance to unlawful orders.

You are, like so many others, blaming the wrong thing for what you dislike. It reminds me of Code Pink protesting against recruiters because of X policy or Y policy, even though the military has nothing to do with the policy of barring gays from military service, or ordering the invasion of Iraq, and etc.

Do you also argue that Ron Paul is a thief and uses violence, because he is a part of the Federal Government?

[TheConstitutionLives]

.... I know I did.

- no wonder you're so defensive. You were a slave who's now obviously in denial. I ran across a bunch of Vietnam Vets outside the store Saturday who kept telling me I should donate to them bc their sacrifice is why "I'm free". They believe that nonsense only bc admitting the truth exposes they were merely cannonfodder, they were USED, and that hurts badly. I felt sorry for them and it made me angry at those who sent them out to murder people who were zero threat to the US Constitution.

[pacelli]

If you consider yourself to be a citizen of the United States, you are a voluntary slave. Military or non-military.

[Objectivist]

- what?

Well should we start with aerospace or the nuclear energy field? How about bridge technology or building technology in general? How about the medical field where some of the better inner-city hospitals are staffed with battle trained doctors who were Warrant Officers or Field Medics earlier in life, or maybe they are still active reserve.

Go stick your head back up your arse where you seem to feel warm and fuzzy.

By the way I wasn't cannon fodder.

And in the field of diving, the United States Navy is where we get our dive tables for civilian use, originally. Then the deepest dives were conducted with military hardware. Sonar and Radar? That too. Welding technology? I could go on for days.

[Objectivist]

"Defensive"? Only for the US Constitution.

[heavenlyboy34]

Some individual training is as far as you could get. Any really good training would be very expensive because of the investment required for a sufficient quantity of armored vehicles and artillery. Not to mention that to be any good, the instructors would need to have relevant experience. How many places are going to be able to conduct combined arms operations, with appropriate air and logistical support of the type needed for military operations of any scale?

Historically, this is why the militia concept in the USA died. It is hard to build and train a unit any larger than a company on a part time basis. Going as far back as the Mexican War, the main weakness in the US Army has been the ability to expand to the necessary size during war and have competent officers who could manage the additional complexity of large organizations, having no experience of anything on that scale. Even in Gulf I, when the Guard units were activated, there was still a considerable training period to ensure that they could operate as brigades - now handled in true PC fashion by making brigades smaller, and thus easier to command.

This is somewhat beyond my expertise, but it has been addressed by several good writers, including Dr Hoppe. You also assume that military operations are a necessity of life. I disagree with this, as it is grounded not in fact, but subjective opinion. (several writers have shown that a private society could provide for its own defense) Further, full time armies are not characteristic of a free society-they are imperial/offensive in nature. (For starters, read "Democracy, the God that Failed" by Hoppe).

Maybe I'll write up more on this someday. TTYL. :cool:

[heavenlyboy34]

If you consider yourself to be a citizen of the United States, you are a voluntary slave. Military or non-military.

That's why I prefer to see myself as a human who happens to live in a place called "the United States".

[TheConstitutionLives]

Well should we start with aerospace or the nuclear energy field? How about bridge technology or building technology in general? How about the medical field where some of the better inner-city hospitals are staffed with battle trained doctors who were Warrant Officers or Field Medics earlier in life, or maybe they are still active reserve.

Go stick your head back up your arse where you seem to feel warm and fuzzy.

By the way I wasn't cannon fodder.

And in the field of diving, the United States Navy is where we get our dive tables for civilian use, originally. Then the deepest dives were conducted with military hardware. Sonar and Radar? That too. Welding technology? I could go on for days.

Well, I'm sure glad I had no choice but to pay for your education so that you could join this forum 5 months ago and spend so much time here that you've already accumulated over 3,000 posts. Glad you're putting my forced investment to good use.

[TheConstitutionLives]

If you consider yourself to be a citizen of the United States, you are a voluntary slave. Military or non-military.

- This is true

[TheConstitutionLives]

You are, like so many others, blaming the wrong thing for what you dislike. It reminds me of Code Pink protesting against recruiters because of X policy or Y policy, even though the military has nothing to do with the policy of barring gays from military service, or ordering the invasion of Iraq, and etc.

- There is plenty of blame to go around. I'm even to blame. We all are and so are our parents, grandparents, and so on.

[bkreigh]

Please, please do not join. As a member of the military, the federal government can tell you when and where to kill. Placing such extremely important moral decisions in the hands of the state is beyond foolish.

If you are in infantry or some crap like that.

There are other branches of the service and different rates that you can join that do not partake in that stuff. It sounds like you didnt do your due diligence and picked the wrong branch and rate.

i have been in 8 years and the only time i picked up a firearm was in basic training and that was a little 9mm.

[Objectivist]

ITT Objectivist shows once again that he doesn't understand Objectivism.

Soldiers don't produce anything. They should lose their jobs, as worthless as they are. We can't afford to support any more slaves, especially not armed ones in foreign lands.

Here is something for you from Ayn Rand that I happened across after your ignorant comment about objectivism.

"It is a legal instrument for using force. Properly it's force used in self-defense. It's honorable force in the case of the United States military."

And because I eat veggies am I a vegetarian?

[tmosley]

Right, because having hundreds of thousands of troops in foreign lands is all about self defense.

I guess you think the Mafia is a chapter of the 4-H Club?

[FreeTraveler]

But without him how would Hitler have
condemned him at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body
as a weapon to a war
and without him all this killing can't go on

Simply because it is worth restating. Over and over and over again. Forever. Until the killing stops.

TPTB are powerless unless citizens channel that power against their fellow citizens. Whether we speak of troops, or local police, or DEA or IRS agents.

[Objectivist]

Here is something for you from Ayn Rand that I happened across after your ignorant comment about objectivism.

"It is a legal instrument for using force. Properly it's force used in self-defense. It's honorable force in the case of the United States military."

And because I eat veggies am I a vegetarian?

The quote above clearly states her feelings about the United States Military, then in her interview with Donohue in the late 70s she thinks we should take the oil in the Middle East, since Western interests developed it.

[Sandman33]

Hello God, Does killing people because men that fed me and sheltered me told me to still equal murder?

I mean I KNOW what my conscience tells me...and that the corps has done thier best to destroy that very gift that you have given me....but I still must ask though I already know the answer that I realy don't want to hear........

PLEASE GOD FORGIVE ME AND CHANGE THINGS! I as a soldier am SUPPOSED to be the one to actually bring righteous change for mankind but I KNOW I'm doing just the opposite...yet should I open my mouth my NECK will be stretched or slashed.