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View Full Version : What is everyone here's opinion of public and higher education?




Light
08-28-2009, 07:58 AM
See topic title.

I am talking about how harmful these two things are two the liberty movement, and how they serve to indoctrinate the children of this country with pro big state propaganda.

erowe1
08-28-2009, 08:21 AM
There are a lot of ways this question could be taken, so I'm not sure what you really mean to ask. But certainly there should be no taxpayer funding whatsoever for either of them. Nor should there be any compulsory schooling.

InterestedParticipant
08-28-2009, 08:25 AM
Is this a trick question?

Please see Theodor Adorno's Dialectic of Enlightenment, which argued that mass education could not only be used to enlighten the public but to control them. It's a dialectic of extreme irony.

Public & Higher "education" are the most effective weapons for mass conditioning ever created by man.

Bruno
08-28-2009, 08:27 AM
over-priced, over-rated, yet a requirement for some hiring managers to show "they put in the effort and paid their dues" despite not having a degree in a related field to the position they are hiring for.

Cowlesy
08-28-2009, 08:29 AM
We have entire forum dedicated to the discussion of education if you wished to know what Ron Paul supporters think.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=43

Light
08-28-2009, 08:30 AM
over-priced, over-rated, yet a requirement for some hiring managers to show "they put in the effort and paid their dues" despite not having a degree in a related field to the position they are hiring for.

There are few fields that I would say that one would actually need a college degree in order to prepare them for the field they wish to work in. Certainly, most people today should not be going to college, and it is certainly not the "ticket" to an easy life. Heck, even the Master' Degree is becoming watered-down in terms of value.

A college degree means as much you are educated, just as visting the gym once every week means that you are physically fit.

Light
08-28-2009, 08:32 AM
We have entire forum dedicated to the discussion of education if you wished to know what Ron Paul supporters think.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=43

I know, however, this is a more general and larger discussion about it. Also, the education forum is far less active than this one.

pcosmar
08-28-2009, 08:35 AM
I know, however, this is a more general and larger discussion about it. Also, the education forum is far less active than this one.

Any one that knows anything about Ron Paul or has listened to his speeches Knows his position.
I agree with it.



In 2000, Paul supported a Republican Liberty Caucus (RLC) resolution to abolish the Department of Education and return education control to states, cities and communities.

Abolish the Dept of Education.

erowe1
08-28-2009, 08:35 AM
I know, however, this is a more general and larger discussion about it. Also, the education forum is far less active than this one.

It's so general and large, in fact, that I still don't know what you're asking. What do you want to know about what we think about public and higher education?

Light
08-28-2009, 08:36 AM
Any one that knows anything about Ron Paul or has listened to his speeches Knows his position.
I agree with it.



Abolish the Dept of Education.

I agree with abolishing the Department of Education.

Feenix566
08-28-2009, 08:37 AM
The public education system is the number one reason why poor people in America stay poor. When you're forced to send your kids to an underperforming school run by a bunch of beurocrats, it's really no surpriise that they don't do as well in the professional world as kids who have access to better schools in more affluent communities. It's time we stopped forcing families to send their kids to bad schools, and let the parents decide where their kids get educated.

This issue should be the primary rallying call of the liberty movement every time we try to appeal to liberals and Democrat-controlled districts. I don't understand how anyone who seeks an egalitarian society can support public education in good conscience.

Also, it doesn't help our cause that every kid in America receives their education from a government employee who is also part of a union. It's a wonder anyone makes it through public school and still manages to support conservative ideals! That fact alone is proof of how persuasive the liberty message really is.

Light
08-28-2009, 08:38 AM
It's so general and large, in fact, that I still don't know what you're asking. What do you want to know about what we think about public and higher education?

Its in the topic title. Its about whether you guys think that public education produces individuals that support big state propaganda?

It should come as no surprise as to why the demographic that Obama has the most support outside from racial lines, is from young adults who are in college.

I am sorry I am receiving so much hostility for this topic.

I am also curious as to why today's "mainstream" conservative pundits don't support abolishing the deparment of education despite knowing how it is basically a glorified socialist factory, and why Reagon did not abolish the Department of Education despite campaigning to do just that.

TonySutton
08-28-2009, 08:43 AM
Anything the government can do, the private sector can do better and for less money.

InterestedParticipant
08-28-2009, 08:48 AM
Ever seen this?

Carnegie's Plan to "Alter" American Education (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=185979)

pcosmar
08-28-2009, 08:51 AM
Its in the topic title. Its about whether you guys think that public education produces individuals that support big state propaganda?

It should come as no surprise as to why the demographic that Obama has the most support outside from racial lines, is from young adults who are in college.

I am sorry I am receiving so much hostility for this topic.

I am also curious as to why today's "mainstream" conservative pundits don't support abolishing the deparment of education despite knowing how it is basically a glorified socialist factory, and why Reagon did not abolish the Department of Education despite campaigning to do just that.

You are new here, This has been discussed often.
If you are wondering WHY, the rabbit hole gets much deeper.
Watch this video.
YouTube - Rare year 1982 video with G. Edward Griffin & Norman Dodds#1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8cC21jB9EE)

Feenix566
08-28-2009, 08:53 AM
I am also curious as to why today's "mainstream" conservative pundits don't support abolishing the deparment of education despite knowing how it is basically a glorified socialist factory, and why Reagon did not abolish the Department of Education despite campaigning to do just that.

That's a good question. They support No Child Left Behind because it was Bush who passed it. If Al Gore had won in 2000 and passed No Child Left Behind, O'Reilly, Limbough, and Hannity would all have been steaming mad about it.

Light
08-28-2009, 09:01 AM
You are new here, This has been discussed often.
If you are wondering WHY, the rabbit hole gets much deeper.
Watch this video.
YouTube - Rare year 1982 video with G. Edward Griffin & Norman Dodds#1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8cC21jB9EE)

Thanks for the video, however, it does not mention anything about schooling.

pcosmar
08-28-2009, 09:05 AM
Thanks for the video, however, it does not mention anything about schooling.

Yes it does, and it goes into the forces behind it. Watch and listen.
The forces behind it are the reason Reagan was unable to do anything about it, even though he wanted to.

mczerone
08-28-2009, 09:09 AM
See topic title.

I am talking about how harmful these two things are two the liberty movement, and how they serve to indoctrinate the children of this country with pro big state propaganda.

Since we are in general Politics, how about a general political answer:

Each human is entitled to own his own person, and to select for himself the amount of education to seek or to provide to his fiduciary principles (i.e. children and other dependents), as this is an economical decision. These are not only subjective, but the only person that can be said to understand your economic history and means at any current moment is yourself. Thus you may wish to say, "I don't know what to learn or what I wish to do eventually in life, so I'll let a group of people decide what should be in a standard curriculum for a standard person, and just do that." Great, that is your decision. However you may also say, "I am very destitute, and lucky to be alive - I don't need to learn quantum physics or comparative religion or academic English or any history. I need to apprentice with a professional and learn a trade to ensure I'll never go hungry again, as that is the best education path for me."

What a gov't does, in all areas, is determine a range of answers to any number of general economic decisions by plurality vote, and forces that range upon all subjects, non-voters and dissenters included. The answers that are allowed are necessarily always compromises between any number of people's actual positions, and are thus ineffective by nearly anyone's standards, but also they are necessarily 'average'. They are solutions to problems that are necessarily not radical, ideal, nor innovative - as these types of solutions are necessarily the product of at most a small number of collaborative individuals.

So with gov't involvement we get a perversion of an initial goal of, as topical to the thread, creating the best solution to educating ourselves and our children, into the reality of a system that doesn't provide equal access; doesn't educate well, either by aggregate measures or individual case-studies; doesn't adequately compensate teachers, doesn't allow deviation from a few defined curriculum, doesn't prepare for real world application; and doesn't even meet the program's designer's own 'national standards'.

The schooling environment that currently is promulgated by the US gov't and accepted by US State gov'ts, degrades the children, the teachers, the parents, the college students, the administrators, the gov't planners, and the concept of education itself. People are systematically taught to hate learning, to dread books, to conform to other people's ideals in order to have success, and to obey the ruling elite.

Yes, I went to public school. Yes, I have a 'graduate degree'. Yes, there is a better way to establish these services.

mczerone
08-28-2009, 09:21 AM
Anything the government can do, the private sector can do better and for less money.

While empirically true, there is always the off chance the gov't does something right, and is actually a catalyst for a positive action in the World. Possible successes: Boulder Dam, Overthrowing previous repressive regimes, physically exploring the Moon.

There is the absolute truth, however, that whatever the gov't does, it does so through threat of force. This absolute truth does prove though that at least some of the actions of government would not have taken place in voluntary transactions, and thus there must have been some loss involved to one individual or group, or in fully completing some task or another.

This implies the losses of quality and wealth in your statement, as a general rule.

erowe1
08-28-2009, 09:29 AM
Its in the topic title. Its about whether you guys think that public education produces individuals that support big state propaganda?


Ohhhhh. Well actually, unless you see something I don't, that question is not in the topic title.

Yes, of course public education is used as pro-government propaganda.

TastyWheat
08-28-2009, 09:35 AM
I think most of my college education has been a waste. As far as my field is concerned, computer science, your time is better spent in the work place. Sure, I might've capped my earnings if I didn't get a degree, but I'd be making way more money right now. I don't know about other fields or degrees, but my courses have only prepared me for more courses and a career in research, not in the private sector.

mczerone
08-28-2009, 09:45 AM
I think most of my college education has been a waste. As far as my field is concerned, computer science, your time is better spent in the work place. Sure, I might've capped my earnings if I didn't get a degree, but I'd be making way more money right now. I don't know about other fields or degrees, but my courses have only prepared me for more courses and a career in research, not in the private sector.

Not only does the current system really only prepare students for leading the next generation through the system, but the extensive "Federal Research" programs that currently fund much of higher education encourage private industry to lay off specialized R&D programs, and rely on lobbyists and favored Ph.D.s to have the public education sector to do the research and development for them with Federally backed salaries of work-study student employees.

So not only does the system steer students to stay in the system, it usurps private sector jobs for computer scientists, mechanical engineers, meteorologists, mathematicians, artists, linguists, and even doctors and lawyers who would be focusing on research for firms and are instead forced to stay on as Professors at Federally funded institutions if they wish to innovate.

mczerone
08-30-2009, 03:28 PM
Its in the topic title. Its about whether you guys think that public education produces individuals that support big state propaganda?

It should come as no surprise as to why the demographic that Obama has the most support outside from racial lines, is from young adults who are in college.

I am sorry I am receiving so much hostility for this topic.

I am also curious as to why today's "mainstream" conservative pundits don't support abolishing the deparment of education despite knowing how it is basically a glorified socialist factory, and why Reagon did not abolish the Department of Education despite campaigning to do just that.

You are fishing for the "It's a conspiracy!" answer. Maybe there were behind the scenes deals that kept the central department in existence, but most likely it was just too politically risky to be seen as "abandoning the nation's education" during the almost completely hollow long term threat of having to continue the Cold War in perpetuity.

heavenlyboy34
08-30-2009, 03:31 PM
1) there is no need for government education (it's less effective than private or homeschool)
1b)public ed is a plank of the Communist Manifesto for a good reason ;)
2) college is only needed for specialty careers, and experience is more valuable than college.

/my 2 cents.

Objectivist
08-30-2009, 03:35 PM
Evil.

AggieforPaul
08-30-2009, 03:46 PM
I'm a pretty big fan. I'm one year away from graduating from a bachelor's in finance, and I plan to get my MBA eventually. The people in here hating on higher education are probably doing so from their parents' basement.