Is Forced Taxation, Terrorism?

[ClayTrainor]

I'm just curious to see how many of us view forced taxation as terrorism.

The US Department of defense definition of Terrorism follows:


The calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological.

("unlawful" is simply a legal term used to imply that the violence under the US law is ok, but we all know better than that, i hope.)

You pay your taxes for the same reason that you would pay the mafia their extortion. You are being threatened with violence, in order to achieve a political goal. (terrorism)

You ultimately pay your taxes, because a man in uniform will show up to your door, and take you away to a tiny cell if you don't. If you resist this man in uniform, he might beat you or taze you, and proceed to take you away. If you try to defend your self in any reasonable way, you will be shot and killed. That is taxation, that's what it is, some will deny it and will go on believing it is moral, or the only way to construct a society.

Obviously, i believe forced taxation is no morally different than terrorism, regardless of the end goals. Does the majority of this forum agree?

Do you agree that it's wrong to force people to pay for national defense, using government coercion?

[Kludge]

No. It isn't unlawful (less arguably the income tax). If we're using a definition of terrorism which excepts legal aggression, then no, it doesn't fit.

[ClayTrainor]

No. It isn't unlawful (less arguably the income tax). If we're using a definition of terrorism which excepts legal aggression, then no, it doesn't fit.

who gets to decide what is lawful? Under this logic, the "war on drugs" is lawful, and is not terrorism. The pot head minding his own business in his basement, can have "lawful" violent force used against him, when he is of no threat to anyone else.

Terrorism is in the eye of the beholder.

I used the DOD definition, because it essentially backs up everything i say, even though they use the word "unlawful" to cover their own asses, from being viewed as terrorists. Violence without the necessity of self-defense, is unlawful, from my view.

[Kludge]

who gets to decide what is lawful

Citizens and/or their representatives.

[ClayTrainor]

Citizens and/or their representatives.

Therefore, slavery used to be lawful. Also, under this logic, The war in Iraq is lawful. (representatives decided it was, citizens don't do anything significant to try and stop them)

I personally think those things are in blatant violation of natural law, and individual humans making decisions in groups, does not change that. They both fit the bill of "terrorism", in my mind.

[newbitech]

How about...

No - Forced Taxation is not terrorism because I am not afraid of it.

disclosure, I do not like to participate in polls like this because of how slanted the options are towards the opinion of the OP. I usually always have an opinion not represented by the "choices" given.

[ClayTrainor]

How about...

No - Forced Taxation is not terrorism because I am not afraid of it.
Other people are afraid of it. I personally don't avoid paying taxes, because i don't want to go to jail, or lose my business. Is it only terrorism if YOU are afraid?

So you don't pay your taxes, i presume?





disclosure, I do not like to participate in polls like this because of how slanted the options are towards the opinion of the OP. I usually always have an opinion not represented by the "choices" given.

You're just nitpicking. I guess i should've left "No" as an option.

[mport1]

Absolutely. The U.S. government is the largest terrorist organization there is.

[newbitech]

Other people are afraid of it. I personally don't avoid paying taxes, because i don't want to go to jail, or lose my business. Is it only terrorism if YOU are afraid?

So you don't pay your taxes, i presume?





You're just nitpicking. I guess i should've left "No" as an option.

And the vast majority of people pay taxes believing that it is their civic duty, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. How does this reconcile to terrorism in your mind? I gave you my opinion, it is not terrorism because I am not afraid of it. I believe many people would tell you the same thing albeit for different reasons. It sounds like you are paying taxes out of fear. Well is it only terrorism if YOU are afraid of it?

Terrorism is such a crappy word. I'd go back to calling it theft. I think you'd get a better understanding and more open minds that way. For the record, no i don't pay taxes because I don't have an income. My family does pay a small property tax which is an open battle in my town. I also pay a sales tax which I believe is getting out of control, but you know what? When the town was voting on this stuff, my opinion and voice wasn't heard because I was off ignoring the whole thing because I didn't realize it impacted me. Now I do.

But theft, terrorism, extortion, and all the other sensationalized words that get tossed around to describe the system that my neighbors have put in place while I was absent is pretty divisive and counter productive to actually solving problems. If you are going to put out accusations like that, you also need to put out names, dates, places, and any other evidence you have. Otherwise, its just empty rhetoric that solves nothing and only serves to further infuriate and confuse people.

An yeah a simple NO. Would have sufficed.

[ClayTrainor]

And the vast majority of people pay taxes believing that it is their civic duty, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Correct.


How does this reconcile to terrorism in your mind?

Because of what happens if they stop paying. Everybody knows what happens when they stop paying.



I believe many people would tell you the same thing albeit for different reasons.
and none of them try to pay more taxes. They get their tax bill, and they pay it, because they know what happens when they don't.



It sounds like you are paying taxes out of fear.

You're dam right I am.



Well is it only terrorism if YOU are afraid of it?

It's true that terrorism is usually in the eye of the beholder, however it's obvious to me that what's being done to the Iraqi's is terrorism, even though i don't personally fear it.

Terrorism is the use of violence or the threat of violence, in order to achieve a political goal.





Terrorism is such a crappy word. I'd go back to calling it theft.
Theft doesn't imply violence, theft implies the taking of property, against the will of the owner.

Taxation is theft by way of terrorism.



I think you'd get a better understanding and more open minds that way.
You might be right here but, my goal is not to sway minds with this thread...

It is a poll...



If you are going to put out accusations like that, you also need to put out names, dates, places, and any other evidence you have. Otherwise, its just empty rhetoric that solves nothing and only serves to further infuriate and confuse people.

The US DOD definition seems to make my case for me.



An yeah a simple NO. Would have sufficed.

Yea, i should've included that, i suppose.

[newbitech]

Correct.


Because of what happens if they stop paying. Everybody knows what happens when they stop paying.


and none of them try to pay more taxes. They get their tax bill, and they pay it, because they know what happens when they don't.



You're dam right I am.


It's true that terrorism is usually in the eye of the beholder, however it's obvious to me that what's being done to the Iraqi's is terrorism, even though i don't personally fear it.

Terrorism is the use of violence or the threat of violence, in order to achieve a political goal.




Theft doesn't imply violence, theft implies the taking of property, against the will of the owner.

Taxation is theft by way of terrorism.


You might be right here but, my goal is not to sway minds with this thread...

It is a poll...



The US DOD definition seems to make my case for me.



Yea, i should've included that, i suppose.

I was just discussing this topic with someone else since it has come up again here. A question came. When you started your business, were you aware that you would be paying taxes? If yes, then was that decision also made in fear?

I don't think anyone starts a business because they are terrified. I would say in my case that I now have more motivation than ever to start a business and not rely on a corporation to make my life work. But I know full well that there will be tax implications and you know what? I am not afraid of that. It's not going to stop me from having a business. My business model includes paying outrageous taxes because that is the environment I am in. Maybe it wasn't so bad when you started you business, but somehow you have found a way to run a successful business I presume.

If your business is in danger of failing because government is taking too much, then it would appear that one way or another your business is going to fail. I know I am over simplifying this, but the point is, you started a business in this environment. You knew you'd have to pay taxes. Right or wrong. You created a business that was successful despite the burden. I don't see that as fear. Now, I can imagine the windfall you would have if you, your employees, and customers did not have to pay tax.

I don't think its right, but I certainly have a hard time calling it terrorism, especially to folks who are interested in making the situation right. You know we have to deal with people that willingly pay taxes . I hear people tell me all the time that they in fact do want to pay more taxes. Why? where is the logic in that right? Well how about this logic. If I pay more tax than you, then I make more than you and spend more than you. That's not a bad goal to have. Kind of twisted, but if you want to talk about activism and what is going on out there, then describing this system as terrorism is a terrible way to bring people together.

That's only my opinion from what I observe everyday. I am pretty sure most people who participate on this site are already pretty radical and won't have a hard time understanding your comparison. But really, I don't see the point in checking on the status of Ron Paul's folks "radical-ness" in the form of a poll.

[denison]

absolutely. The u.s. Government is the largest terrorist organization there is.

+1 :d

The "War on Terror" should of started at home!

[ClayTrainor]

When you started your business, were you aware that you would be paying taxes?
Yes



If yes, then was that decision also made in fear?


The decision to open a business was not made in fear, but i was not given a choice on whether i contribute to taxes or not.

That part is 100% fear, there was no voluntary agreement. I could very easily do my business under the table, but due to the threat of violence, i decided this was a bad idea.

I registered, for personal safety reasons only.



I don't think anyone starts a business because they are terrified.

100% agreed.



I would say in my case that I now have more motivation than ever to start a business and not rely on a corporation to make my life work. But I know full well that there will be tax implications and you know what? I am not afraid of that.
That's fine that you're not afraid, but the fact is, it's not voluntary and they are imposed on you by the threat of violent force.



It's not going to stop me from having a business.

me neither.


My business model includes paying outrageous taxes because that is the environment I am in. Maybe it wasn't so bad when you started you business, but somehow you have found a way to run a successful business I presume.

Indeed i did. I'd have money to invest in high quality private health care insurance, if i wasn't forced into so many welfare / health care / unemployment insurance / Auto company bailouts / etc.



If your business is in danger of failing because government is taking too much, then it would appear that one way or another your business is going to fail.

Actually, i made over $100k in my first year, and my government took about 45k of that. My business is far more likely to approach the point of fail in the future, because i don't have nearly as much money in the reserves to keep it afloat. I also don't have enough money to employ others, which could have increased my productivity and generated even more revenue the next year. But nope, they de-motivated me, and made me realize that i don't own the work that i do.



I know I am over simplifying this, but the point is, you started a business in this environment. You knew you'd have to pay taxes. Right or wrong. You created a business that was successful despite the burden. I don't see that as fear. Now, I can imagine the windfall you would have if you, your employees, and customers did not have to pay tax.

I get what you're saying but, Fear isn't part of the question to me, the threat of violence, or use of violence, is.



I don't think its right, but I certainly have a hard time calling it terrorism, especially to folks who are interested in making the situation right. You know we have to deal with people that willingly pay taxes . I hear people tell me all the time that they in fact do want to pay more taxes.
People may want to pay more in taxes, but how many of them are voluntarily giving their money to the government?

What they actually mean when they say that is they want YOU, and everybody else, to pay more taxes. ;)



Why? where is the logic in that right? Well how about this logic. If I pay more tax than you, then I make more than you and spend more than you. That's not a bad goal to have.
In a progressive tax system, this isn't always true.



Kind of twisted, but if you want to talk about activism and what is going on out there, then describing this system as terrorism is a terrible way to bring people together.


100% agree here.



That's only my opinion from what I observe everyday. I am pretty sure most people who participate on this site are already pretty radical and won't have a hard time understanding your comparison.

Agree, to an extent



But really, I don't see the point in checking on the status of Ron Paul's folks "radical-ness" in the form of a poll.

Because, i'm personally curious. Do people here feel the same way about taxes as i do. Apparently they do. :)

I honestly, wasn't sure.

[MsDoodahs]

JMO on what is a little thing, I guess....

Taxation is theft - the word forced isn't needed because if it weren't backed by threat of force, it would be voluntary and then it wouldn't be a tax at all, it would be a donation.

:)

[ClayTrainor]

Taxation is theft - the word forced isn't needed because if it weren't backed by threat of force, it would be voluntary and then it wouldn't be a tax at all, it would be a donation.

:)
good point. :)

[Pod]

I don`t look to DoD for my definition of terrorism.

[ClayTrainor]

I don`t look to DoD for my definition of terrorism.

But those who tax you, do ;)



Terrorism:
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.

Shoe still fits...