U.S. Jews tell Catholics: We won't accept Christ as savior

[Liberty Star]

Just when whispers about Obama starting his vacation at same time muslims started their holy month could be heard around Washington, another religious controversy has erupted apparently after US bishops implied that Jews would end up in hell unless they accepted Jesus as savior.

This also raises a another question, does rule of "separation of church and state" applies to US bishops also or they can say whatever the choose about other religious minorities?


21/08/2009


U.S. Jews tell Catholics: We won't accept Christ as savior

By The Associated Press


Major Jewish groups and rabbis from the three largest branches of American Judaism said Thursday that their relationship with Roman Catholic leaders is at risk because of a recent U.S. bishops' statement on salvation.

Jewish groups said they interpret the new document to mean that the bishops view interfaith dialogue as a chance to invite Jews to become Catholic. The Jewish leaders said they "pose no objection" to Christians sharing their faith, but said dialogue with Jews becomes "untenable" if the goal is to persuade Jews to accept Christ as their savior.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1109145.html

[free.alive]

Israel and Jews seem to be a big topic for you.

Why is that?

[moostraks]

What is your issue with what one faith leader (or group of leaders) believes and espouses? Where is this a conflict with a seperation of church and state and where should said be occuring?

[Liberty Star]

I believe Israel is the biggest topic post 9/11 because of impact on US, wars that followed and current ecocomic crisis etc.

Jewish faith is a minority religion like many others, not a compelling topic. Although I do believe we need we need to import more Iraqis and Palestinians to have equal number of arabs and jews in Congress for a more freedom oriented foreign policy.

Hope that answers your question.

[LittleLightShining]

Jewish faith is a minority religion like many others, not a compelling topic. Although I do believe we need we need to import more Iraqis and Palestinians to have equal number of arabs and jews in Congress for a more freedom oriented foreign policy.

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

[t0rnado]

My cult is better than your cult.

[Eric Arthur Blair]

This also raises a another question, does rule of "separation of church and state" applies to US bishops also or they can say whatever the choose about other religious minorities?[/url]

This is weird.If Catholic Bishops say something Jews don't like new laws need to be made up to silence bishops as Catholic bishops are an integral part of the US government :rolleyes:The church and state are only truly separate when no one can say anything that offends Jews?

[Liberty Star]

What is your issue with what one faith leader (or group of leaders) believes and espouses? Where is this a conflict with a seperation of church and state and where should said be occuring?

What Christians leaders (be it Evangelical leaders or Catholic leaders like US bishops) say about Jewish faith intertwines with US official policy at some level. There is a clear nexus of Religion and Politics in America. A prominent group of Church leaders or Pope saying something would become evetually part of national debate. It may not be necessarily a separation of church and state issue at this stage if Christians in government distanced thmeselves from Church leaders view. But potential is there considering how big God is in our daily political lives. With current US engagement regarding jewish settlement freeze over arab land, God's covenant with jewish people would be an important issue for many , for majority of Republican party at least.

[free.alive]

Liberty Star,

People are not goods - even Iraqis and Palestinians.

Also, your plan reeks of the sort of central planning this entire movement has risen up against.

[Liberty Star]

This is weird.If Catholic Bishops say something Jews don't like new laws need to be made up to silence bishops as Catholic bishops are an integral part of the US government :rolleyes:The church and state are only truly separate when no one can say anything that offends Jews?

Not at all. Separation of Church and State on second thougght was not proper frame for this question at this stage. Let me rephrase question. Is US Catholic Church changing its view towards Jewish people's covenant with God and thus its view towards Israel and its occupation of arab land?

[Eric Arthur Blair]

Not at all. Separation of Church and State on second thougght was not proper frame for this question at this stage. Let me rephrase question. Is US Catholic Church changing its view towards Jewish people's covenant with God and thus its view towards Israel and its occupation of arab land?

the Quote from Haaretz says Catholic bishops should not be allowed to criticize Jews as that is a beach of the separation of church and state, implying Catholics are part of the state. It makes no sense. Where are they getting this from?

[Eric Arthur Blair]

This also raises a another question, does rule of "separation of church and state" applies to US bishops also or they can say whatever the choose about other religious minorities?

my mistake. The above in bold is not in the Haaretz article.

[Liberty Star]

the Quote from Haaretz says Catholic bishops should not be allowed to criticize Jews as that is a beach of the separation of church and state, implying Catholics are part of the state. It makes no sense. Where are they getting this from?

I didn't read it that way and I won't agree with that; I believe Catholic bishops should be able to freely express their beliefs.

This is subtle subject with many nuances. If Nancy Pelocy or Sean Hannity publicly agreed with Catholic Church's view, that would be a different story. Is US popular political culture view towards Jewish covenant with God shifting? That was the question I was trying to ask. Would it effect US policy towards Israel and does it mean State is dependent on Church in some policies?

Maybe its premature discussion but in some ways Obama policy is already disregarding any such covenants when it comes to jewish state.




Liberty Star,

People are not goods - even Iraqis and Palestinians.

Also, your plan reeks of the sort of central planning this entire movement has risen up against.

Well they are less than "goods" for many among us. But I was not making a serious proposal there, I was making a point there about how we got into current mess.

[Eric Arthur Blair]

double post

[Flash]

The Catholics for a while have been planning on doing this. The Vatican began promoting Zionist nonsense & released a bunch of brand new Holocaust stories to try to appease the Jews. Now it turns out Jews don't want to give up their religion, and Catholics have egg on their face. Every attempt to convert Jews for the past 2,000 years has failed, so why they would try it now doesn't make much sense and is actually pretty offensive.


I believe Catholic bishops should be able to freely express their beliefs.

You have the wrong religion to be honest with you. The Catholic bishops answer to the Pope, hence why when they say something he disagrees with they get excommunicated. There are other Christian alternatives to Catholicism if that's what you're looking for.


Is US Catholic Church changing its view towards Jewish people's covenant with God and thus its view towards Israel and its occupation of arab land?

Definently not, for the past few years they have done everything they could to promote Israel.

[Eric Arthur Blair]

I didn't read it that way and I won't agree with that; I believe Catholic bishops should be able to freely express their beliefs.

This is subtle subject with many nuances. If Nancy Pelocy or Sean Hannity publicly agreed with Catholic Church's view, that would be a different story. Is US popular political culture view towards Jewish covenant with God shifting? That was the question I was trying to ask. Would it effect US policy towards Israel and does it mean State is dependent on Church in some policies?

Maybe its premature discussion but in some ways Obama policy is already disregarding any such covenants when it comes to jewish state.
Well they are less than "goods" for many among us. But I was not making a serious proposal there.

I don't think it's subtle at all. The renegade bishops said quite rightly that if Jews (or Muslims, Hindus, Atheists etc) don't accept Christ as their saviour they will burn in hell period.

Jews are using their weighty political influence to force the pope to distance himself from such claims and therefore spit on the bible. If the pope caves in to these demands more real Catholics will abandon the Catholic Church.

[Liberty Star]

Flash, very interesting. So Vatican was behind promoting "Christian Zionism" theories?
From what I had read, their ulterior conversion motives were no secret and Christian Zionists are deeply mistrusted by most Jewish people. It is strange that CZ designs are still marketed in some US Christrian markets.

[Dr.3D]

Beware when you see propaganda being backed by the U.N.
http://www.nysun.com/foreign/funding-of-palestinian-propaganda-by-un/18798/

Edit: Yes it's an old article, but still interesting to say the least.

[DamianTV]

Just when whispers about Obama starting his vacation at same time muslims started their holy month could be heard around Washington, another religious controversy has erupted apparently after US bishops implied that Jews would end up in hell unless they accepted Jesus as savior.

This also raises a another question, does rule of "separation of church and state" applies to US bishops also or they can say whatever the choose about other religious minorities?



http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1109145.html

Good!

[Eric Arthur Blair]

This all stems from the Bishop Williamson affair (whatever happened to him? have the mossad killed him yet?). The current pope didn't grovel enough hence round 2. Pope Ratzy needs to bow down and suck on some more circumcised dick if he wants this to blow over and keep those US Catholic dollars flowing into the Vatican.

[revolutionisnow]

I've always thought the Zionist Christians were pretty delusional to believe that Jews were actually going to convert after they handed over Israel to them. I don't understand how someone as knowledgeable on religion as the Popes are, cannot understand the difference between the covenant with Judahites and the other tribes and what is being sold today- a covenant with anyone of Jewish faith.

[moostraks]

What Christians leaders (be it Evangelical leaders or Catholic leaders like US bishops) say about Jewish faith intertwines with US official policy at some level. There is a clear nexus of Religion and Politics in America. A prominent group of Church leaders or Pope saying something would become evetually part of national debate. It may not be necessarily a separation of church and state issue at this stage if Christians in government distanced thmeselves from Church leaders view. But potential is there considering how big God is in our daily political lives. With current US engagement regarding jewish settlement freeze over arab land, God's covenant with jewish people would be an important issue for many , for majority of Republican party at least.

This reads like crap. So I suppose all faith leaders are to remain silent on their views regarding issues specific to their belief system for fear that those in politics may get some wrong headed concept (according to those in opposition of said espoused beliefs) of an opposing faith?

Freedom of religion not from religion. If one takes offense to an ideal proposed by government take it up there. Faith leaders are entitled to their opinions. If you feel distraught over the current crop in the Republican party work towards changing the agenda or expanding the views.

[Liberty Star]

So I suppose all faith leaders are to remain silent on their views regarding issues specific to their belief system for fear that those in politics may get some wrong headed concept (according to those in opposition of said espoused beliefs) of an opposing faith?

No, who said they ought to remain silent?
Question was, is there a shift in US religious thinking towards jewish religion and jewish state?

Protestant groups like CUFI are silent but Catholic bishops seems to be saying there is a change. Since Catholics have taken some powerful position since fall of Bush/Cheney, it could translate to US policy towards Isrraeli occupation of arab land. Any view on that?


Freedom of religion not from religion. If one takes offense to an ideal proposed by government take it up there. Faith leaders are entitled to their opinions. If you feel distraught over the current crop in the Republican party work towards changing the agenda or expanding the views.

I agree about freedom of religion. Religious ignorance of much of so called Repulican base is a separate issue, hopefully Obama punishment factor is having some corrective effect there and making them rethink their past behaviors. We should know from next SBC resolutions.

[Spot the Fed]

It is simple really. The days of Catholic apologism are over. The Church is dead. Long live The Church.

[muzzled dogg]

didn't the jews say that 2000 years ago?

[Liberty Star]

Back then there was no Christian funded Messianic movement ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism ) and Speaker of US Congress was not a Catholic. It's a new religio-political paradigm now.

[Flash]

Flash, very interesting. So Vatican was behind promoting "Christian Zionism" theories?
From what I had read, their ulterior conversion motives were no secret and Christian Zionists are deeply mistrusted by most Jewish people. It is strange that CZ designs are still marketed in some US Christrian markets.

Yes, the Vatican from my understanding was taken over by the Anglo-American (or NWO, w/e you can call it) sometime after World War 2. The Second Vatican Council was friendly to Jewish & American worldview. The previous original Vatican was anti-Semitic and friendly to Adolf Hitler.

[PaulaGem]

This is weird.If Catholic Bishops say something Jews don't like new laws need to be made up to silence bishops as Catholic bishops are an integral part of the US government :rolleyes:The church and state are only truly separate when no one can say anything that offends Jews?

The quote did not say that.


21/08/2009


U.S. Jews tell Catholics: We won't accept Christ as savior

By The Associated Press


Major Jewish groups and rabbis from the three largest branches of American Judaism said Thursday that their relationship with Roman Catholic leaders is at risk because of a recent U.S. bishops' statement on salvation.

Jewish groups said they interpret the new document to mean that the bishops view interfaith dialogue as a chance to invite Jews to become Catholic. The Jewish leaders said they "pose no objection" to Christians sharing their faith, but said dialogue with Jews becomes "untenable" if the goal is to persuade Jews to accept Christ as their savior.

[PaulaGem]

I didn't read it that way and I won't agree with that; I believe Catholic bishops should be able to freely express their beliefs.

This is subtle subject with many nuances. If Nancy Pelocy or Sean Hannity publicly agreed with Catholic Church's view, that would be a different story. Is US popular political culture view towards Jewish covenant with God shifting? That was the question I was trying to ask. Would it effect US policy towards Israel and does it mean State is dependent on Church in some policies?

Maybe its premature discussion but in some ways Obama policy is already disregarding any such covenants when it comes to jewish state.





Well they are less than "goods" for many among us. But I was not making a serious proposal there, I was making a point there about how we got into current mess.

And Jews should be able to not want to associate with them if they can't communicate without trying to convert them.

All Judaism is not Zionism, just as all Christians are not Evangelical radicals.

[PaulaGem]

I don't think it's subtle at all. The renegade bishops said quite rightly that if Jews (or Muslims, Hindus, Atheists etc) don't accept Christ as their saviour they will burn in hell period.

Jews are using their weighty political influence to force the pope to distance himself from such claims and therefore spit on the bible. If the pope caves in to these demands more real Catholics will abandon the Catholic Church.

The first comment is a slap in the face of Judaism.

In light of that why shouldn't they have the right to "spit on the bible"?

[tonesforjonesbones]

Bottom Line: Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except by Me" That means NOBODY..so the Bishops didn't insenuate....they should be bold and say Come to Jesus...Jews don't get a pass..nobody gets a pass if you are a true Christian who believes in the Teachings of Jesus...you know this to be true. I don't believe in mincing words when it comes to scripture. NOBODY gets a pass. If the jews choose not to communicate with the Bishops anymore that's on them...and the Bishops as well as ALL Christians are charged to bring people to JESUS. We are commanded to do it...the Bishops tried..if the jews choose to burn...oh well. tones

[PaulaGem]

Bottom Line: Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except by Me" That means NOBODY..so the Bishops didn't insenuate....they should be bold and say Come to Jesus...Jews don't get a pass..nobody gets a pass if you are a true Christian who believes in the Teachings of Jesus...you know this to be true. I don't believe in mincing words when it comes to scripture. NOBODY gets a pass. If the jews choose not to communicate with the Bishops anymore that's on them...and the Bishops as well as ALL Christians are charged to bring people to JESUS. We are commanded to do it...the Bishops tried..if the jews choose to burn...oh well. tones

It's really hard for me to understand someone who can't see the difference between the Loving Father that Yeshua taught about, the one who never gives his children a stone when they pray for bread and a wrathful God who would literally tell someone to "go to hell" because they were brought up in the wrong religion.

This parable is a clear allegory for the Bread of Life, Spiritual Truth. Please don't bring up the "Holy Communion" bread. That one was ripped off from the pagans too.

By the way, "hell" as you know it is not an original Jewish concept. That was ripped off from the Zoroastrians and embroidered upon by the Catholics to keep the masses in fear.

[tonesforjonesbones]

I dont' care how it came about...I am a Christian and a Bible believer...Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except by Me." I took world religion in college too...I understand Zorasterism and all the middle eastern religions came from that...but it doesn't prove WHEN God decided to reveal Himself and who he decided to reveal Himself to. Tones

[PaulaGem]

I dont' care how it came about...I am a Christian and a Bible believer...Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except by Me." I took world religion in college too...I understand Zorasterism and all the middle eastern religions came from that...but it doesn't prove WHEN God decided to reveal Himself and who he decided to reveal Himself to. Tones

Well, he didn't tell the Jews about Hell until after the Babylonians got to them.....

Luke 11 9-13 KJV

And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


It seems to say here that God will reveal himself to anyone who comes before him and asks.

[moostraks]

No, who said they ought to remain silent?
Question was, is there a shift in US religious thinking towards jewish religion and jewish state? My bad, if that wasn't your intention,that is what it read like to me...:o


Protestant groups like CUFI are silent but Catholic bishops seems to be saying there is a change. Since Catholics have taken some powerful position since fall of Bush/Cheney, it could translate to US policy towards Isrraeli occupation of arab land. Any view on that?

Interesting idea. I haven't been versed in religious politics lately. The groups I steer toward get hives when you mention politics (Amish/Mennonite and Plain believers who are generally home churches or solitaries)




I agree about freedom of religion. Religious ignorance of much of so called Repulican base is a separate issue, hopefully Obama punishment factor is having some corrective effect there and making them rethink their past behaviors. We should know from next SBC resolutions.

We could only hope for this conclusion. (Some of us will be praying for it...:p)

[Flash]

It's really hard for me to understand someone who can't see the difference between the Loving Father that Yeshua taught about, the one who never gives his children a stone when they pray for bread and a wrathful God who would literally tell someone to "go to hell" because they were brought up in the wrong religion.

This parable is a clear allegory for the Bread of Life, Spiritual Truth. Please don't bring up the "Holy Communion" bread. That one was ripped off from the pagans too.

By the way, "hell" as you know it is not an original Jewish concept. That was ripped off from the Zoroastrians and embroidered upon by the Catholics to keep the masses in fear.

I tend to agree. Personally, I subscribe to the belief that Hinduism, Buddhism, Paganism, Christianity, etc.. are all 'of God' and true religions. I guess that could be called Gnosticism. And the idea of an omnipotent all-loving diety sending people to eternal hell for religious beliefs is pretty silly.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Yes of course Paula...anyone who wants to come in can come in, but there are conditions. You have to accept that Jesus was the Son of God and died for the sins of the world, and you have to be baptized with water. Tones

[tonesforjonesbones]

I go to a large church in my town, very contemporary...and nearly the entire worship arts team are Ron Paul supporters and libertarians...my Christian church is FULL of libertarian ministers. tones

[Liberty Star]

Bottom Line: Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except by Me" That means NOBODY..so the Bishops didn't insenuate....they should be bold and say Come to Jesus...Jews don't get a pass..nobody gets a pass if you are a true Christian who believes in the Teachings of Jesus...you know this to be true. I don't believe in mincing words when it comes to scripture. NOBODY gets a pass. If the jews choose not to communicate with the Bishops anymore that's on them...and the Bishops as well as ALL Christians are charged to bring people to JESUS. We are commanded to do it...the Bishops tried..if the jews choose to burn...oh well. tones


Ok, but doesn't it seem bit harsh for people to be punished for all eternity just because they don't accept Jesus?

God says different things at different times, what if person is otherwise a model ethical being and does not harm anyone else and only sin is rejecting Jesus, would it be fair to send such a person to hell forever?

Just being devil's advocate here by using rational logic in Divine matters. Hopefully thinking up such a question won't invite His wrath.

[Liberty Star]

My bad, if that wasn't your intention,that is what it read like to me...:o



Interesting idea. I haven't been versed in religious politics lately. The groups I steer toward get hives when you mention politics (Amish/Mennonite and Plain believers who are generally home churches or solitaries)





We could only hope for this conclusion. (Some of us will be praying for it...:p)


Ok cool, we're on same page then :)




Personally, I subscribe to the belief that Hinduism, Buddhism, Paganism, Christianity, etc.. are all 'of God' and true religions.


Judaism, Catholicism also beong on this list right?

[tonesforjonesbones]

Well Liberty..God said "there is a way that seems right to a man but in the end it leads to death." Meaning spiritual death...being separated from God. All I can say is what Jesus said " No one comes to the Father except by Me." Tones

[PaulaGem]

Ok, but doesn't it seem bit harsh for people to be punished for all eternity just because they don't accept Jesus?

God says different things at different times, what if person is otherwise a model ethical being and does not harm anyone else and only sin is rejecting Jesus, would it be fair to send such a person to hell forever?

Just being devil's advocate here by using rational logic in Divine matters. Hopefully thinking up such a question won't invite His wrath.

I've got another "what if"...

What if a child was born into a religious community that was loving and came to know and love God through the beliefs of those people... and then as he or she became older they met some "Christians" who derided them for their beliefs and told them they were going to Hell?

It wouldn't make much sense for that person to start worshiping "Christ", would it?

[PaulaGem]

Well Liberty..God said "there is a way that seems right to a man but in the end it leads to death." Meaning spiritual death...being separated from God. All I can say is what Jesus said " No one comes to the Father except by Me." Tones

You've got a book that says he said that. That book includes a made up genealogy, and made up biographical details about his ministry. What makes you think some of what they attribute to the Master is not also made up?

I know you won't accept the facts I just gave you about the contents of the Bible, but I figured them out all by myself doing "Bible Study". Thomas Jefferson did the same, so have many pastors who are now "liberal" Christians.

You can lead a sheep to water, but you can't make him drink, I know that.

[Liberty Star]

Well Liberty..God said "there is a way that seems right to a man but in the end it leads to death." Meaning spiritual death...being separated from God. All I can say is what Jesus said " No one comes to the Father except by Me." Tones

I can't argue with God but was looking for rational explanation for such a harsh eternal punishment.




I've got another "what if"...

What if a child was born into a religious community that was loving and came to know and love God through the beliefs of those people... and then as he or she became older they met some "Christians" who derided them for their beliefs and told them they were going to Hell?

It wouldn't make much sense for that person to start worshiping "Christ", would it?

Theoratically, fear is more powerful motivator than any, so it is possible and even plausible under the right set of conditions. The issue here maybe how much rational thinking can be or should be employed in explaining God's commands.

[Dr.3D]

You've got a book that says he said that. That book includes a made up genealogy, and made up biographical details about his ministry. What makes you think some of what they attribute to the Master is not also made up?


And you have proof of what you are saying?

[Vessol]

boo, no non-christians in america!

[Liberty Star]

boo, no non-christians in america!

In America yes, but in Heaven?

[Flash]

Judaism, Catholicism also beong on this list right?

Judaism too, yes. Believe me there were tons of religions I didn't mention since it would be just too time consuming. And Catholicism is a sect of Christianity.

[Vessol]

In America yes, but in Heaven?

All christians go to heaven. Even Hitler.

Everyone who died in the holocaust(JEWS, GAYS, eh, probably not gypsies) will BURN in hell forever and ever

[Liberty Star]

All christians go to heaven. Even Hitler.

Everyone who died in the holocaust(JEWS, GAYS, eh, probably not gypsies) will BURN in hell forever and ever

I am taking both side of argument here to be devil's advocate as an exercise in rational argument, I was not saying there that God will stop each and every non Jesus believer at the gates of Heaven. I'm trying to learn myself, there might be additional interrogation for them at the door possiby before they get admission into Heaven.

You have opened a whole new can of worms LOL

[PaulaGem]

And you have proof of what you are saying?

I just said, the proof is in the book.

The genealogy is conflicting, and Christian apologetics don't change the facts. The same with the "he went there and did that" part of the biographical details. Not to mention that many of the mystical stories are clear rip offs of earlier pagan myth.

If you study the Bible in exactly the same way you study any other ancient text, this is what you come up with. If you think about what you read (as Jefferson did) this is what you come up with.

If you are not willing to do this, you won't come to the same conclusions.

Mark 10:17-31 (New International Version)


As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother."

"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

2esus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"

The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

Peter said to him, "We have left everything to follow you!"

"I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first."


You have to be willing to give up everything to truly follow the Master. You who call yourselves "Christian"., is your book more sacred than your Lord?

Are you really willing to give up everything???

[PaulaGem]

I can't argue with God but was looking for rational explanation for such a harsh eternal punishment.





Theoratically, fear is more powerful motivator than any, so it is possible and even plausible under the right set of conditions. The issue here maybe how much rational thinking can be or should be employed in explaining God's commands.

But if one has grown up knowing the Love and fellowship of the One, fear is alien, it has no control.

[Vessol]

I am taking both side of argument here to be devil's advocate as an exercise in rational argument, I was not saying there that God will stop each and every non Jesus believer at the gates of Heaven. I'm trying to learn myself, there might be additional interrogation for them at the door possiby before they get admission into Heaven.

You have opened a whole new can of worms LOL

But the Bible says specifically that if you accept in your heart that Jesus is your savior that you shall be admitted and all mortal sins forgiven. Condensed, I know, but I read the very book I once preached.

but..you're right. DERAILLLLLLLLL*SCREETCH*

[Liberty Star]

But if one has grown up knowing the Love and fellowship of the One, fear is alien, it has no control.

Ok I stand corrected. Love for all, hatred for none is a pretty powerful motivator in itself.

[PaulaGem]

But the Bible says specifically that if you accept in your heart that Jesus is your savior that you shall be admitted and all mortal sins forgiven. Condensed, I know, but I read the very book I once preached.

Read my post above. What did the Master say was necessary to enter into the Kingdom?

Yeshua never spoke of "mortal sin". Where did you get that one from?

[literatim]

You have to be willing to give up everything to truly follow the Master. You who call yourselves "Christian"., is your book more sacred than your Lord?

Are you really willing to give up everything???

It doesn't say that at all. This is in regards to following the Laws. Jesus states that no one is good and despite the rich man saying he followed all the Laws, he still had flaws. So despite it being impossible for a rich person to enter in the kingdom of Heaven, with God it is possible. It also says that many who are first will be last and many who are last will be first, not all.

[Vessol]

You have to be willing to give up everything to truly follow the Master. You who call yourselves "Christian"., is your book more sacred than your Lord?

Are you really willing to give up everything???

As you type on your personal computer.

[PaulaGem]

It doesn't say that at all. This is in regards to following the Laws. Jesus states that no one is good and despite the rich man saying he followed all the Laws, he still had flaws. So despite it being impossible for a rich person to enter in the kingdom of Heaven, with God it is possible. It also says that many who are first will be last and many who are last will be first, not all.


Okaaay...... Try this one.



Luke 14:25-35

Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters -- yes, even his own life -- he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.'

"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

"Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out.

"He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

http://www.jesuswalk.com/lessons/14_25-35.htm

This comes from a Christian Minister, perhaps you would like to read the rest of the lesson.

It comes down to what is more important, the teachings of the Master and eternal life in the Kingdom, or your religion.

[pacelli]

Israel and Jews seem to be a big topic for you.

Why is that?

Seriously. Another 1 issue poster. It is either Israel, the Jews, or the Palestinians.

[moostraks]

But if one has grown up knowing the Love and fellowship of the One, fear is alien, it has no control.

Having read different christian theologies, the best description I heard regarding believing in Jesus was to simplify it to believing in Love perfected. Rudolf Steiner was the one who wrote the book. I believe it was in Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and Its Attainment . Anyways it finally reconciled to me the age old debate regarding the issue of Jesus. I think that many people are taught legalism in church but love gets lost.:(

[PaulaGem]

Having read different christian theologies, the best description I heard regarding believing in Jesus was to simplify it to believing in Love perfected. Rudolf Steiner was the one who wrote the book. I believe it was in Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and Its Attainment . Anyways it finally reconciled to me the age old debate regarding the issue of Jesus. I think that many people are taught legalism in church but love gets lost.:(

What really did it for me was a Bible study on Yeshua's concept of the "Kingdom". Most Christians (myself included when I started) don't have a clue.

[Yieu]

Regarding the OP, I do not see where the controversy is. Of course Jews will not accept Jesus as 'Savior' -- that is not a tenet of Judiasm, it is only a tenet of Christianity and no other religion. Therefore, it is only natural that they will not do that, and should be of no surprise to anyone!

Also, I do not think that holding such a belief will grant one a 'free ride' to heaven, nor that refusal to believe such prevents one from entrance into heaven. Different religions are just different methods of worshiping the same God.

[Liberty Star]

Regarding the OP, I do not see where the controversy is. Of course Jews will not accept Jesus as 'Savior' -- that is not a tenet of Judiasm, it is only a tenet of Christianity and no other religion. Therefore, it is only natural that they will not do that, and should be of no surprise to anyone!

Also, I do not think that holding such a belief will grant one a 'free ride' to heaven, nor that refusal to believe such prevents one from entrance into heaven. Different religions are just different methods of worshiping the same God.

It's not as much about any controversy but about a "shift" in US Christian's thinking and support for the Jewish state and people. While you may not believe that a belief about salvation in Christ is key to admission to Heaven, for a large number of Christians it is.

This news is about Catholic bishops but support of some Protestant groups has apparently also been based on a badly kept secret conversion agenda. Recent rise in support for so called "Messianic Jews" is part of same agenda where a Jew also believes in Christ to attain salvation, they are active in Israel too. All witty Jackie Mason had while back summed it up by saying that "you can be either a table or a chair, but you can't be both".

[PaulaGem]

It's not as much about any controversy but about a "shift" in US Christian's thinking and support for the Jewish state and people. While you may not believe that a belief about salvation in Christ is key to admission to Heaven, for a large number of Christians it is.

This news is about Catholic bishops but support of some Protestant groups has apparently also been based on a badly kept secret conversion agenda. Recent rise in support for so called "Messianic Jews" is part of same agenda where a Jew also believes in Christ to attain salvation, they are active in Israel too. All witty Jackie Mason had while back summed it up by saying that "you can be either a table or a chair, but you can't be both".

Jews for Jesus is an old, old issue. As a Christian I found that I knew more about Judaism than all of the Jewish guys I dated. It's easy to "infiltrate" that movement.

[Liberty Star]

Jews for Jesus is an old, old issue. As a Christian I found that I knew more about Judaism than all of the Jewish guys I dated. It's easy to "infiltrate" that movement.

Yes but in recent years they have gain higher profile among US Christian groups that support Israel, on US Christian TV networks and getting greater scrutiny in Israel. Their bibles were taken and burnt recently in Israel, that had not happened before.


BTW, I think inter-faith dating could be used to resolve many of the problems seen today in holy land : )

[PaulaGem]

Yes but in recent years they have gain higher profile among US Christian groups that support Israel, on US Christian TV networks and getting greater scrutiny in Israel. Their bibles were taken and burnt recently in Israel, that had not happened before.


BTW, I think inter-faith dating could be used to resolve many of the problems seen today in holy land : )

But the OP was about American Jewish groups relating to American Catholic groups. I don't think what's happening in Israel really affects that so much. As I said, if Catholics are participating in Ecumenical groups hoping their fictional "Christianity" will wear off on the Jews it is an insult.

[Liberty Star]

But the OP was about American Jewish groups relating to American Catholic groups. I don't think what's happening in Israel really affects that so much. As I said, if Catholics are participating in Ecumenical groups hoping their fictional "Christianity" will wear off on the Jews it is an insult.

Yes it was, but I thought it would provide context for a broader discussion about US "Christian" support and recent shifts. And how this apparent Catholic shift compares with shift in Protestant support since start of wars and economic crisis. I believe it's all connected politically speaking and observing.

[Yieu]

As I said, if Catholics are participating in Ecumenical groups hoping their fictional "Christianity" will wear off on the Jews it is an insult.

Agreed, it is an insult. Telling someone else they are going to hell because they follow any religion other than Christianity is an insult. Telling someone you hope they become Christian so they don't have to go to hell is an insult. There is no truth in those statements, they are mere insults.

[Liberty Star]

When it comes to this so called support, there is not much difference between pro-Israel Christian groups as this secretly taped video of a recent gathering shows:


YouTube - Rapture Ready: The Christians United for Israel Tour (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjMRgT5o-Ig)