The Wrong Debate

[dr teeth]

I am sick of this political system playing to rhetorical debate. When it comes to health care, we have to make a choice here. Let's start being honest about the only two fiscally possible options.

1. Single Payer Health Care - Simply put we put all of the eggs in one basket. Everyone pays into the same fund, and everyone gets Medicare. People under a certain age and over a certain age, do not have to pay a premium. Private supplemental plans will still be available, but everyone is in the same risk pool. There is a fair debate between private and public providers, and actual study probably shows a hybrid system. Lower income urban areas and rural areas would more than likely need public providers, while middle and upper income areas would be better served by private providers.

2. Elimination of Medicare - The federal government gets out of the health care business altogether. If a state has the resources, they can administer public providers as they see fit.

Now there is an absolutely absurd climate out there. People are fighting over 2 solutions that do nothing to address the real problem. When you study the government cost over the federal, state and local sectors, health care is killing budgets. When you factor emergency room costs into the private sector, businesses and patients are drowning under rising costs.

There are legitimate points in each argument, but can't we actually argue honestly here.

[Objectivist]

The "correct" debate should be centered on removing government regulations on all aspects of the medical field, insurance, hospitalization, care., etc.....
This would make healthcare much cheaper for everyone. Sadly the LPDs have their sights set on making private systems too expensive for the common man.

[Bucjason]

number 2 , thanks.

[Objectivist]

number 2 , thanks.

You are quite welcome..... nice av!:D

[dr teeth]

The "correct" debate should be centered on removing government regulations on all aspects of the medical field, insurance, hospitalization, care., etc.....
This would make healthcare much cheaper for everyone. Sadly the LPDs have their sights set on making private systems too expensive for the common man.

I don't disagree with you entirely. However, this is an irrational market. You have 3 consumers.

Insured - Pay the most for services
Medicare - Pay a lower cost for services
Uninsured - Don't pay for services

For a free market solution to work, that has to be addressed. You can't have irrational markets, or the insured price will continue to rise quicker with baby boomers moving to medicare, and the uninsured ranks rising in younger small business employees. This cycle will spiral out of control very quickly.

[dr teeth]

number 2 , thanks.

I respect that argument. Doing so may be chaos at first, but the providers would have to adjust supply and demand accordingly.

[__27__]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=206051

[MsDoodahs]

Let's say it spirals out of control very quickly.

And then ???

[dr teeth]

Let's say it spirals out of control very quickly.

And then ???

Then medicare will start crushing our ability to function as a nation. Insurance will become affordable to only the upper middle class. The mass of uninsured will force many hospitals to close their doors. The economy will grind to a halt, along with our government.

[dannno]

Wow, the OP is actually the one having the wrong debate here.

Ron Paul would NEVER get rid of medicare like that.

This is a Ron Paul site, don't you pay attention to his solutions??? I mean, come on..

The reason medical costs are so high is because of corporate medicine.. you get a tax break for getting a corporate plan, but you don't get a tax break for getting individual insurance. This causes everybody to insure completely because it is only slightly more expensive than an individual plan with reasonable limitations that only covers catastrophic incidents. Therefore, nobody ever pays for healthcare.. it is always paid for by the insurance companies. This takes the competition out of healthcare, and it is the main reason why prices are so high.

[MsDoodahs]

Then medicare will start crushing our ability to function as a nation. Insurance will become affordable to only the upper middle class. The mass of uninsured will force many hospitals to close their doors. The economy will grind to a halt, along with our government.

I can live with that.

[Objectivist]

I don't disagree with you entirely. However, this is an irrational market. You have 3 consumers.

Insured - Pay the most for services
Medicare - Pay a lower cost for services
Uninsured - Don't pay for services

For a free market solution to work, that has to be addressed. You can't have irrational markets, or the insured price will continue to rise quicker with baby boomers moving to medicare, and the uninsured ranks rising in younger small business employees. This cycle will spiral out of control very quickly.

Hence removing all government regulation over healthcare.... it would open up markets and reduce cost immediately.

If people can go to the store to buy aspirin and aspirin kills 7500 people a year, there is no reason to make return trips to your Urologist for boner medications. You should be able to purchase most meds without a prescription like they do in most of the third world countries I've frequented. Just this alone would make insurance much cheaper.

Oh! I don't carry insurance and I do pay for services. On the first of September I see a Dermatologist for removal of a few skin spots.... I pay cash. Same thing for my Dentist.

[dannno]

Not to mention moral hazard. When you're on a corporate plan, it doesn't matter how old you are or how healthy you are, your insurance still costs the same. This doesn't give anybody any incentive to live a healthy lifestyle.

[dr teeth]

Not to mention moral hazard. When you're on a corporate plan, it doesn't matter how old you are or how healthy you are, your insurance still costs the same. This doesn't give anybody any incentive to live a healthy lifestyle.

I have entirely lost faith in the concept of moral hazard. Regardless of who you want to blame, moral hazard did nothing to prevent the calamity of the last decade. People make irrational decisions.

[Objectivist]

Wow, the OP is actually the one having the wrong debate here.

Ron Paul would NEVER get rid of medicare like that.

This is a Ron Paul site, don't you pay attention to his solutions??? I mean, come on..

The reason medical costs are so high is because of corporate medicine.. you get a tax break for getting a corporate plan, but you don't get a tax break for getting individual insurance. This causes everybody to insure completely because it is only slightly more expensive than an individual plan with reasonable limitations that only covers catastrophic incidents. Therefore, nobody ever pays for healthcare.. it is always paid for by the insurance companies. This takes the competition out of healthcare, and it is the main reason why prices are so high.

Most of the costs associated with healthcare are directly attributed to government regulations.

[MsDoodahs]

Hence removing all government regulation over healthcare.... it would open up markets and reduce cost immediately.

If people can go to the store to buy aspirin and aspirin kills 7500 people a year, there is no reason to make return trips to your Urologist for boner medications. You should be able to purchase most meds without a prescription like they do in most of the third world countries I've frequented. Just this alone would make insurance much cheaper.

Oh! I don't carry insurance and I do pay for services. On the first of September I see a Dermatologist for removal of a few skin spots.... I pay cash. Same thing for my Dentist.

Make sure you get a discount for using cash!

:)

[Objectivist]

Make sure you get a discount for using cash!

:)

Interesting comment as I was just thinking they need an express lane at the doctors office.

[DirtMcGirt]

I want to be able to buy insurance from any state in the Union

[Bucjason]

Ron Paul on medicare medicaid , starting at 3:00 in the video...

YouTube - John Stossel Interviews Ron Paul 2007.12.07 part 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEyeb7iMArM)

[Objectivist]

I want to be able to buy insurance from any state in the Union

You should be able to but here again, government regulation interferes in the free market.

I want to be able to purchase insurance that has no government regulations attached.

[dannno]

I have entirely lost faith in the concept of moral hazard. Regardless of who you want to blame, moral hazard did nothing to prevent the calamity of the last decade. People make irrational decisions.

Ok, let's slow this down a little.

I just told you that there was no moral hazard..

Now you are saying that moral hazard did nothing to prevent the calamity of the last decade...

That's because there WAS NO MORAL HAZARD.

I imagine you are having the same damned debate in other threads about the free market... "The free market did nothing to prevent the calamity of the last decade!".. that's because there IS NO FREE MARKET in the last decade either.

Do you understand post #10 on the first page? Anything I need to elaborate on??

The solution to this problem was outlined by Peter Schiff. You take away the tax break for corporate healtchare, and give out a tax break on wages that balances. Then people get more MONEY with their paycheck and they can choose to get whatever healthcare they want. Most people will get less insurance and start paying for their own medical care out of pocket, and prices with go through the floor. Then the costs of medicare will come down too, because prices are coming down. That is what we need, lower prices.

If we ended our overseas empire, then we could essentially get rid of the majority of the income tax. The economy would explode and there would be very little poverty. Medicare and medicaid would begin to disintegrate and states could take over the roll of handing out welfare if that is what the citizens in that state want.

[LibForestPaul]

Lower cost = increase supply..
End the AMA and its illegal monopoly on physician seating at colleges

Packs with the devil
IDC CPT coding HCFA


Advertising competition, all prevented by AMA

[Justin D]

Mises has an article on healthcare: http://mises.org/story/3643