Who is Palestinian? Where is Palestine?? Who Named Palestine???

[ElyaKatz]

BS"D

I'm back with another one. Warning. This is very long. Printed out, it is 5 pages. But to be fair to me, 1.5 pages are my pre-amble in order that those who wonder why I am, for now, a mostly one-issue poster, and have thus become suspicious of my motives (after all, there are trolls out there) will know what makes me tick. For now. Then I estimate about 1.5 pages are quotes or partial quotes from linked sources, to back my claims. That's 3 pages. That leaves 2 pages to cover roughly 2000 years of history. In light of that fact, I've think I've been brief. :D

A little pre-amble to what I hope will be an informative and helpful post, and maybe the beginning of an interesting discussion. There are a lot of posts at this site which criticize Israel and Zionism, which in an of itself is not a problem. I am here to simply to present the other side of the story to my fellow Libertarian types. I say "Libertarian types" because I've gathered that I'm not totally on board with every single Libertarian view. But then neither are the neo-Nazis, anarchists, communists, and Storm Front members who post here. One example of where I suppose I differ is on the issue of abortion. I am staunchly pro-life, in the Jewish sense of the term, not in the Catholic or Protestant sense. Jews are a bit more liberal on this matter, with rabbinic approval in specific cases when the life of the mother is truly at risk. The dangers considered are typically limited to physical danger, not psychological risk. Abortion is rarely approved to observant Jews by their rabbis, who much prefer giving life to the child and finding other solutions to a given dilemma, such as adoption. Having said that, I think the matter should return to the states, where it belongs.

I have not looked deeply into the Libertarian Party Platform. I mostly guessed myself to lean towards Libertarian views because I respect Dr. Paul and have followed him during his presidential campaign, and had hoped to vote for him. I've studied how this country is supposed to operate according to the original founders' intentions more than I've studied the Libertarian Party Platform. Maybe sometime.

So, I have no hidden agenda. I am simply attempting to tilt the scales, to bring some balance to this forum on the subject of Israel. I am active here on this topic because I would really be sad to see any Ron Paul forums marginalized by groups who claim to be interested in the constitutional integrity of America, while under cover of various Libertarian values are mainly interested in vilifying Israel. How can one tell whether the issue of foreign aid or other constitutional issues are the concern of a given member, or whether disparaging Israel is their agenda? Well, do they focus almost exclusively on Israel, while ignoring all the other waste that our government is guilty of, all the rest of the foreign aid not only unconstitutional, but doesn't even have the mitigating factor of providing some benefits to Americans (such as jobs, R&D etc)?

When the given member does post items that are negative about Israel, Zionism or Jews, Judaism, a given rabbi etc. do they sound fair-minded and balanced, or spiteful? Do they ever express a concern for the side they typically find themselves criticizing? If so, their consistent one-sided views are not unfair necessarily, but the are biased. Bias if fine. In fact, it's often unavoidable. It is impossible for most people born into or raised in a given ethnic, religious or other closely affiliated group to not care very deeply for the members of that group. People develop loyalties and that's a good part of being human. Do they sound interested in peace, or interested in simply destroying one side or the other? Or are they simply convinced that all things bad emanate from all things Jewish and/or Zionist. A favorite strategy of today's antisemites is to claim they are not antisemitic, but only anti-Israel or anti-Zionist. This is why Jews are leery of someone who seems to have an unbalanced, excessively negative view of either Zionism or Israel, or who is obsessively focused on such issues as whether the Holocaust happened or whether Israel or Zionism is the root of America's problems. Jews who are sympathetic to the plight of Israel can detect the difference between friendly criticism and fault-finding. It's not difficult. Sometimes though, a person may initially come across as vilifying to Israel etc. when in fact, they are merely uninformed or simply not that interested. This is where thinking the best for as long as possible plays in. Very, very important.

One must remember, there are many, many shades of Zionism, some of which really are a big problem for Jews and gentiles. Socialist Zionists, in my book, are a problem for a lot of reasons, even if well-intentioned, and most are. Painting with a broad brush is a red flag. I am careful to mention radical Islam, or political Islam, and I am also very concerned about the victimized Arabs in Gaza, Lebanon. I just don't happen to blame Israel for all their woes. If I fail to make the distinction between radical/political Islam and moderate Islam, please fee free to PM me a notice of such with a link, and I will correct it.

I am also relieved to hear from folks who have told me that I need to keep on keeping on. So, some of my posts have a readership, and I hope to continue encouraging those readers.. My suspicions are, most of the folks at this important site would like to see more posts that present the other side, the Israeli side of things. Most Americans are the salt of the earth, good, honest hard-working, G-d fearing people who, while they would love to see the carnage in the Middle East stop, simply have other priorities. Understandably. They are not Israelis, they are Americans. They're also not Gazans, or Lebanese, or Syrians or Egyptians or Iranians. They are Americans. Most people understand very well what is going on, and have sympathy for all the suffering of the Middle East, both Arab and Jew (and Iranian), and have no bone to pick with any side, but would like to see all foreign aid stop. That is a proper viewpoint because that is the constitutional view of America, and it reflects much more closely Dr. Paul's views, at least from what I've studied of his writings, speeches etc.

Now to the topic of this thread. And I think I will participate more in this thread, if honest questions are asked. I might ignore those who don't seem interested in a constructive discussion. I don't have time to rehash old issues that I've covered time and time again on other posts, or to address ad hominems, which are just plain boring.

There are a lot of posts here which present the "Palestinian" viewpoint. Why do I put the term "Palestinian" in quotes? Not because I minimize the genuine needs of the folks who now identify themselves as Palestinians to the world, but because until 1948 this term was never used to identify the Arabs (another complex issue) of the region I refer to as Eretz Israel. The Arabs were simply called Arabs. While it is true that most of these people are actually Arabic speaking, many are not, strictly speaking, actually of Arab descent. Besides the many nationalities who migrated in and out of Eretz Israel for hundreds of years as temporary jobs became available and then disappeared, some people who are researching the subject now claim that up to 85% of the people who practice Islam and speak Arabic in Eretz Israel may be descended from families who were forcibly converted to Islam from either Judaism or Christianity several generations ago, by the Turks and other Islamic conquerors of the region.

So, who are/were the Palestinians?? Mixed into the identification of the people called "Palestinians" is the inevitable question,"Where is Palestine??"

Prior to the re-creation of the State of Israel, the term "Palestinian" was used to refer to the Jewish residents of the region. After the re-constitution of the nation of Israel, this term simply fell into disuse as the Jews of the region began to refer to themselves as Israelis. The term "Palestinian" was resurrected by the PLO in 1968 (?) or sometime thereabouts, in order to create a new people for propaganda purposes. This fact is openly admitted by various members of the PLO and other members of the Arab community. Not that the individuals and their descendants who are referred to nowadays as "Palestinians" didn't and don't exist. The Arabs of the region simply thought of themselves as Arabs, or Jordanians, or Egyptians or Syrians, not as "Palestinians". The following is a direct quote by Mr. Zahir Muhsein, then executive committee member of the PLO, in a 1977 interview by the Dutch newspaper "Trouw" (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090802133753AAO21i6). The quote can be found all over the web.

‘The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.

‘For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”

How do the Jordanians view "Palestine"?

“Palestine and Jordan are one…

‘Prince Hassan of the Jordanian National Assembly on February 2, 1970: “Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is only one land, with one history and one and the same fate”.

‘Abdul Hamid Sharif, Prime Minister of Jordan in 1980: “The Palestinians and Jordanians do not belong to different nationalities. They hold the same Jordanian passports, are Arabs and have the same Jordanian culture.”

‘King Hussein in 1981: “The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.’

And here’s what a few Arab-Americans have to say:

Distinguished Arab-American Princeton University historian Philip Hitti testified before the Anglo-American Committee (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_angloamerican_1945.php), ‘There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in history.’

Palestinian People Do Not Exist (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28222) by Joseph Farah (an American patriot of Lebanese descent)

Excerpt:

"A provocative headline? It's more than that. It's the truth.

Truth does not change. Truth is truth. If something was true 50 years ago, 40 years ago, 30 years ago, it is still true today.

And the truth is that only 30 years ago, there was very little confusion on this issue of Palestine.

You might remember the late Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir making the bold political statement: "There is no such thing as a Palestinian people."

The statement has been a source of ridicule and derision by Arab propagandists ever since. They love to talk about Golda Meir's "racism." They love to suggest she was in historical denial. They love to say her statement is patently false – an intentional lie, a strategic deception.

What they don't like to talk about, however, are the very similar statements made by Yasser Arafat and his inner circle of political leadership years after Meir had told the truth – that there is no distinct Palestinian cultural or national identity."

Read more at the link provided in the title above.

Last question: Who named Palestine anyway? Answer: The Romans as a final act of political revenge after enslaving, expelling or murdering a large number of Jewish rebels. Another punishment for our chutzpah -- Jerusalem was leveled, renamed, a Temple was built to a Roman idol which you can read about but I will not name, and a brand new name was given to Eretz Israel --- Palestine.

I guess we really ticked them off. Well, beating us was really expensive.

Though most of our rulers and elite were driven off the land, enslaved or murdered, many in the peasant class, the "Am Ha'aretz" --the Jewish farmer -- remained to tend the place. Thus after the Roman conquest, there was still a Jewish majority in Eretz Israel. When the Persians came along and conquered the region, this Jewish majority continued.

The Roman Empire is gone. The Jewish people are still around, having been in the unenviable position of being a stateless people, since the Arab conquest in 636 CE. This conqueror had a different plan than all other previous conquerors. The Muslim/Arab modus operandi is to displace the "infidels" via militant settlement, imposed sharia, and expropriation of land and labor, in the case of Eretz Israel, Jewish land and labor. That is when we began to become a landless class and eventually a minority in our own land. And some see the writings of Mark Twain as ample evidence that even then, most of the land was empty, with only urban centers populated, and then with a Jewish majority. Whether Twains' writings can be claimed as evidence, it is a fact that when the Muslims conquered the region, they committed the very crimes against us they falsely attribute to the re-constituted nation of Israel.

Fast forward to the 19th and 20th century, and we see mass immigration of Jews back to their land. Since 1948, the Jewish people rule Eretz Israel. Well, I guess. I wonder when I see how America and the EU dictate to the Israeli government, even to the point of saying who should and should not be in the democratically elected Israeli government and where Jews can and can't add a porch. It seems to me we have replaced Pax Romana with Pax Americana. Not good, considering how things ended for Rome.

The Arab descendants of those who left Israel for various reasons should be rehabilitated. However, their plight is not the fault of Israel. But, Israel has offered to help and has been refused. The Arab world created this problem. Israel absorbed her refugees, now the Arabs, who have plenty of money and land, should absorb theirs.

Read: Arab Journalist: Arab World Puts 'Refugees' Through Hell (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132902)

Excerpt:
"The Arabs kept the Palestinians in refugee camps and made them into a people defeated both morally and materially. In contrast, the West welcomed the Jews and made them a leading [force] in science, arts, literature, economics and politics,” he wrote.

Following the publication of his articles, Shiryan was accused of promoting Zionist and pro-Western goals. He rejected the accusations, and turned the tables on his attackers, alleging that their mistreatment of refugees is “aimed at getting rid of the Palestinians altogether.”[/B]

Once again, the title is also the link to the rest of the article. [/I]

[Flash]

Repost from previous threads:


1) Jews are not of Israelite descent. No proof whatsoever that they are. In fact, it almost becomes laughable to hear anyone simply dismiss the Khazaric/Turkic theory. When I see modern Ashkenazi Jewry, I see people with the racial types of Alpine, Med, & Nordic. These are all Europid groups. Interestingly enough, Ashkenazis can all trace their ancestry back to the Caucasus where the Turkics and Kharazric tribes mixed with them. So, from anthropological evidence, we can conclude Askhenazis are NOT Arabids and thus NOT indigineous to the Middle East.

Onto more evidence, there are studies, mostly by the NY Times (which is known for faulty genetecist articles) which claims Jews have a 'Semitic' gene. Interestingly enough, there is no such thing as a 'Semitic gene,' infact the word 'Semite' refers to a linguistic group not a racial one. And even if Jews did have ancestry from the Middle East, it could be from the Indo-Aryans, Iraqis, Jordanians, etc... who says they are from the Israelites?

Many racial groups are 'made up." I could easily just as say, "Who are the Jews? They certainly aren't Israelites according to both Science & The Bible. Where did they come from?"


That is when we began to become a landless class and eventually a minority in our own land.

Our land? Excuse me? Ashkenazis descend from Caucasus mountains are racial types are Alpine, Med, and Nordic. I am not going to stop repeating this until theres some serious Anthropological data that confirms Ashkenazis are actually Arabids (ie indigineous to the Levant). Although there are Meds native to the Levant, but most of them come from the Crusades and whatnot.

By the way, it's amusing for ADL to label White seperatist groups as hateful for protesting Non-Europid immigration, then the same people want Israel to remain Khazaric-pure. LOL.


am active here on this topic because I would really be sad to see any Ron Paul forums marginalized by groups who claim to be interested in the constitutional integrity of America, while under cover of various Libertarian values are mainly interested in vilifying Israel.

Like I said in your previos two threads, I wrote some very well thought out long posts and you chose to ignore them and repeat the same talking points. This is a forum dedicated to freedom, whenever someone posts an anti-zionist thread they are challenged. Yet you seem to not want to debate, if you post a Pro-Zionist thread that is based upon OBVIOUS anthropological lies, then I will challenge.


"The Arabs kept the Palestinians in refugee camps and made them into a people defeated both morally and materially. In contrast, the West welcomed the Jews and made them a leading [force] in science, arts, literature, economics and politics,” he wrote.

That is because European/Western Civilization is the best form of civilization. As I have been saying on here for years.

[ElyaKatz]

delete, duplicate post

[amy31416]

I find those who deny the existence of Palestine and Palestinians just as abhorrent, if not moreso, than holocaust deniers.

[ElyaKatz]

By the way, it's amusing for ADL to label White seperatist groups as hateful for protesting Non-Europid immigration, then the same people want Israel to remain Khazaric-pure. LOL.

What do you make of the fact that the majority of Jews in Israel are either from or descended from Jews from Arabic lands, Sephardi Jews, and what of Ethiopian, Chinese, Indian, and South American Jews?? You seem to have a hard time grasping the concept of a religio-nation when it comes to Jews. Do you have the same difficulties when it comes to a Jew free new Arab nation called Palestine, or the one called Jordan, or Saudi Arabia, or Egypt or....??? I could go on, but you might get my point.


Like I said in your previos two threads, I wrote some very well thought out long posts and you chose to ignore them and repeat the same talking points. This is a forum dedicated to freedom, whenever someone posts an anti-zionist thread they are challenged. Yet you seem to not want to debate, if you post a Pro-Zionist thread that is based upon OBVIOUS anthropological lies, then I will challenge.

Even if the Khazarian claims were credible or relevant, which they are not, your sources are spurious and unreliable, not even close to objective. If you reject that the Jews lived in the Land of Israel throughout the last 3,000 years, and for much of that as the majority, and as a nation with it's own laws and specific culture (albeit occupied by foreign powers much of the time) and thus they have the right to re-constitute their nation on that same historic homeland, then you need to also take up the cause of the Moors. Furthermore, your logic leads me to believe you are morally obligated to give your home to the nearest Native American or Mexican, the Inuit or Polynesians, depending on your location within the current nation called the united States of America.

Lacking the normal perks that come with living in one's homeland, we being very adaptable, had our own version of immigration papers in order for those wishing to join us to legally enter into the nation while in exile, and we have felt the method suitable to this very day...namely, conversion papers. It has kept our people intact, and only allowed those into our nation who take an oath of loyalty to the nation and our laws, this oath being taken before a legal court of three highly trained judges (a Bais Din) and G-d. Those born Jewish have other documentation which governs their membership in this little community, marriage papers, divorce papers, bris milah certificates...

Elya Katz:

"The Arabs kept the Palestinians in refugee camps and made them into a people defeated both morally and materially. In contrast, the West welcomed the Jews and made them a leading [force] in science, arts, literature, economics and politics,” he wrote.


That is because European/Western Civilization is the best form of civilization. As I have been saying on here for years.

Tell that to the Native Americans....

The reason for the Arabs who fled/left Israel during the War of Independence are still being kept in refugee camps is the political agenda, corruption, callousness and incompetence of UNRWA. Same goes to the Arab nations who could have taken these poor souls in, and rehabilitated them in 1/2 the time it took Israel to rehabilitate her refugees. There was no will do so, because these agencies and nations wanted to use them as political pawns. Even the UN, in it's more clear-headed moments, has admitted as much, and with great indignity, I might add.

[ElyaKatz]

I find those who deny the existence of Palestine and Palestinians just as abhorrent, if not moreso, than holocaust deniers.

Read my post more carefully. I am not denying the existence of the people. In fact, I am quoting them, as they state that the term "Palestine" is merely a political expediency.

Your response is an ad hominem attack. I am putting you on notice; if you choose to continue in this mode, and don't stick to the issues, which I have stated carefully, factually and even-handedly, with impeccable resources to back my claims, then I will not feel any obligation whatsoever to respond. I simply don't have the time to reply to people who skim through my base post and then respond with surface emotions and personal attacks. If you respond in a thoughtful manner, with reliable resources linked or cited to back your claims, but include ad hominems, then I might respond to the thoughtful portions of your post, but I will not respond or quote your ad hominems and may choose to not respond at all.

Questions put to me with a sincere desire to know my opinion, that's another story, but questions that are repetitive or which are clearly intended as challenges in question form may not be entertained either. I can't do anything to stop these sorts of distractions from true debate, but I don't have to entertain them either.

[amy31416]

Read my post more carefully. I am not denying the existence of the people. In fact, I am quoting them, as they state that the term "Palestine" is merely a political expediency.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.


"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation)

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."

-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.


(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.


"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.


Nope. There's no problem with Israeli leadership and their policy of apartheid, is there? The two most shameful things about America's inception is the treatment of Native Americans and slavery. And while I'm sure you're inspired by our history with the Native Americans, it's certainly nothing that anyone can ethically defend.

The Native Americans did not have a fully-structured government or a particular name for America (that I know of), but I'm absolutely sure that they are Native Americans, despite the fact that an outside group gave them that name. I'm also absolutely sure that they are human beings who were greatly wronged.

If you want to justify theft with the bible, political structures or plain old BS, you'll do better with people who don't put such importance on individual sovereignty and property ownership. Why bring your Hasbara propaganda here?

[ElyaKatz]

BS"D

Okay. Now post the links where you sourced your quotes, as I have done. Furthermore, I am not here to defend every single Israeli leader, nor every word that came out of their mouths -- certainly not David Ben-Gurion, Yitzchak Shamir or Ariel Sharon. No more than you or I can defend every single American leader. I have already said that social Zionists were and are a problem for many reasons. Nor am I crazy about Bibi's dealings either. I don't like how the Israeli government has handled much of Israeli history. But that doesn't negate the claim of the Jewish people to their homeland.

You have not dealt with my quotes at all, and mine are sourced so that anyone can go to a library or to the link and read where I obtained them, and learn what the underlying bias is. You have not addressed the history that I outlined. In fact, all I get from your post is that you intensely dislike my point of view, but I am not understanding what in my posts you specifically take issue with...

[amy31416]

Okay. Now post the links where you sourced your quotes, as I have done. Furthermore, I am not here to defend every single Israeli leader, certainly not David Ben-Gurion, Yitzchak Shamir or Ariel Sharon. No more than you or I can defend every single American leader. I have already said that social Zionists were and are a problem for many reasons.

You have not dealt with my quotes at all, and mine are sourced so that anyone can go to a library or to the link and read where I obtained them, and what the underlying bias is. You have not addressed the history that I outlined. In fact, all I get from your post is that you intensely dislike my point of view, but I am not understanding what in my posts you specifically take issue with...

Each quote has it's source which you can search. I've already given you far more time of day than I do a holocaust denier, so you'll have to answer your own questions and peddle your support for apartheid/theft/oppression with someone else.

For anyone else reading--Google "Hasbara Handbook" to see the Israeli gov'ts propaganda, which is what this guy is parroting here.

[revolutionisnow]

I look forward to your next threads on how War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength

[ElyaKatz]

The Native Americans did not have a fully-structured government or a particular name for America (that I know of), but I'm absolutely sure that they are Native Americans, despite the fact that an outside group gave them that name. I'm also absolutely sure that they are human beings who were greatly wronged.

And it is interesting too that the land that the Jewish people are supposed to give away is called "Judea" and "Samaria". These are names have nothing to do with Arabs or Islam, everything to do with Jews and Judaism.


If you want to justify theft with the bible, political structures or plain old BS, you'll do better with people who don't put such importance on individual sovereignty and property ownership. Why bring your Hasbara propaganda here?

I am sure that the Spanish would not have wanted this type of thinking around when they were busy regaining their stolen lands from the Moors. It took them 800 years all told, it took us 1200 but the principles behind each nations' absolute right to regain their lands is exactly the same.

If someone ever tosses you out of your home, improves the place for 50 years while you press your claim in court, and then you are obliged to pass your claim on to your children, and you never relinquish said claim, I think you should just counsel your children to let them have the place already. To reclaim a home after 50 or more years of that person living there is unreasonable. There are such things as squatters rights you know.

[ElyaKatz]

Each quote has it's source which you can search. I've already given you far more time of day than I do a holocaust denier, so you'll have to answer your own questions and peddle your support for apartheid/theft/oppression with someone else.

For anyone else reading--Google "Hasbara Handbook" to see the Israeli gov'ts propaganda, which is what this guy is parroting here.

This "guy" is not a guy, and I have stated so already on other posts, but I don't expect you to read every post I ever wrote -- just sayin'. I have no questions, just asking you to provide links, it's a simple courtesy.

I can honestly say, my posts come from my own reading of Jewish/Israeli history over a span of 30+ years, although I may link some internet sources. I often source my own books from my own library, from well recognized authors. Of course, I have my bias, as do most people who bother to write about this conflict. I look for reliable sources on the internet. However, I have never taken the time to read the Israelis gov't's Hasbara Handbook. Might be helpful. Since Israel is a self-critical society, I would take their sources much more seriously than Arab sources, who murder their kinsman who dare say anything that varies to a significant degree from the party line...and who execute Arabs who sell property to Jews.

If you can't source your quotes, then don't bother posting on this thread, because I won't be taking them seriously. I can make the same exact claims regarding the obvious Arab propaganda you are claiming to be true, about apartheid/theft/oppression, namely that you are parroting propaganda. What books have you read from a Zionist, pro-Israel perspective, with an honest, inquiring mind??

Well that was easy.

[Sandra]

This "guy" is not a guy, and I have stated so already on other posts, but I don't expect you to read every post I ever wrote -- just sayin'.

I can honestly say, my posts come from my own reading of Jewish/Israeli history over a span of 30+ years, although I may link some internet sources. I often source my own books from my own library, from well recognized authors. Of course, I have my bias, as do most people who bother to write about this conflict. I look for reliable sources on the internet. However, I have never taken the time to read the Israelis gov't's Hasbara Handbook. Might be helpful. Since Israel is a self-critical society, I would take their sources much more seriously than Arab sources, who murder their kinsman who dare say anything that varies to a significant degree from the party line...and who execute Arabs who sell property to Jews.

If you can't source your quotes, then don't bother posting on this thread, because I won't be taking them seriously. I make the same exact claims regarding the obvious Arab propaganda you are claiming to be true, about apartheid/theft/oppression. What books have you read from a Zionist, pro-Israel perspective, with an honest, inquiring mind??

Well that was easy.

What the hell is it with trolls popping up telling established members where they can post? I mean there were like four noobs that were banned and did the same thing, were they sock puppets of yours? I believe all of them were Orly Taitz fans too. Your blogs reads like Stormfront.

[Dr.3D]

What the hell is it with trolls popping up telling established members where they can post? I mean there were like four noobs that were banned and did the same thing, were they sock puppets of yours? I believe all of them were Orly Taitz fans too. Your blogs reads like Stormfront.
Looked to me like a suggestion rather than telling anybody where they can post.
After all, since he did say he wouldn't be reading such posts that were not sourced, they would just be a waste of time for the poster.

[Sandra]

Same MO as the banned posters. Come on the forums, create a bunch of troll threads then get banned or just disappear.

[Dr.3D]

Same MO as the banned posters. Come on the forums, create a bunch of troll threads then get banned or just disappear.
Just what criteria are you using to determine if someone is a troll?
Is it someone who starts a thread you don't agree with?

[Sandra]

Just what criteria are you using to determine if someone is a troll?
Is it someone who starts a thread you don't agree with?

Single issue poster. Have you been reading the threads? Can you show me where OP even addressed a Liberty issue?

[Dr.3D]

Single issue poster. Have you been reading the threads?

Yes, I have been reading his threads. I would say he is very interested in the issue he is posting about. If I were to start threads solely about Canadian Health Care, would I be called a troll?

Liberty Star starts many threads that are pro Palestine/Anti-Israel, is he a troll too? I would tend to think it he not a troll but rather someone who is very interested in what is going on in Palestine/Israel, from his point of view.

Is there some reason we should have only one side of an issue be covered while ignoring the other?

[Sandra]

Then, you might try reading the blog OP is linking to. Sometimes you have to step back to see the whole picture.

[Dr.3D]

Then, you might try reading the blog OP is linking to. Sometimes you have to step back to see the whole picture.
I have briefly looked into that blog.... seems like it is pretty well done.

What specifically in that blog do you find objectionable?

[ElyaKatz]

I look forward to your next threads on how War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength

:D

Too deep for me.

[amy31416]

Looked to me like a suggestion rather than telling anybody where they can post.
After all, since he did say he wouldn't be reading such posts that were not sourced, they would just be a waste of time for the poster.

My post is sourced. Each individual quote has a name, date and media source.

And that source is not propaganda, as his is.

[ElyaKatz]

What the hell is it with trolls popping up telling established members where they can post? I mean there were like four noobs that were banned and did the same thing, were they sock puppets of yours? I believe all of them were Orly Taitz fans too. Your blogs reads like Stormfront.

Well, of course I can't stop anyone from posting on this thread. It will be a waste of time if you want a response from me, unless you source your quotes, and that is what I meant. Sheesh. So determined to be offended.

[ElyaKatz]

Looked to me like a suggestion rather than telling anybody where they can post.
After all, since he did say he wouldn't be reading such posts that were not sourced, they would just be a waste of time for the poster.
Righto.

[ElyaKatz]

Same MO as the banned posters. Come on the forums, create a bunch of troll threads then get banned or just disappear.

I'm not going anywhere. I'm not going to devote my life to this either. I feel no obligation to debate ad hominems. BTW, if someone quotes from a hard copy, obviously all they can do is cite the source, and not a link. I just think it's polite to link where possible. It doesn't take that much time, and makes it more likely that your reader will actually read your quotes, believe they do exist, as well as knowing from what bias they are drawn, all very important in deciding whether a quote is credible or not. Of course, these are all suggestions, as must be pointed out apparently. I just am not going to do googling for other folks. In keeping with my suggestions, I'm going to go over my hard copy quotes and either find them on the web sometime or state that they are found only in hard copy.

These suggestions are only made in an effort to keep sources credible. There's a lot of junk and disinformation on the net, as we all know. I've found many fake Talmud quotes for instance, and certainly the ones posted at the various antisemitic sites are completely taken out of context.

[LATruth]

Move to Israel if you love them so much. Maybe one day you will have the chance to plug up a hole used to deliver medicine, food, etc. to millions of starving homeless kids. Or better yet, drive one of those bulldozers yourself into a home occupied by 4 families, uproot their gardens, and possibly execute the providing male of the family.

After all, this is what you support if you condone Israel's actions.

[ElyaKatz]

My post is sourced. Each individual quote has a name, date and media source.

And that source is not propaganda, as his is.

Is it possible to A) calm down and B) please let me know if these sources can be found on the internet or if they are found only in hard copy??? I would be interested in looking at them in context if possible. But I'm not going to take on every nutty quote that every Israeli leader ever said and either defend or apologize for it. The point of my thread goes beyond the merit of a given Israeli leader.

Let's take that homeowner again. What if his lawyer is an idiot? Does that mean he has no claim to his home, or that he needs a new lawyer? The plaintiff must certainly seek a new lawyer if one is available. But the house is still rightly his, is it not??? The burden of proof is much, much higher for the defendant in the case of a stolen national home that has never been relinquished, (public knowledge worldwide) and who's people have not disappeared, as is the case with the Jewish national home.

If you have a problem with that, then explain to me why the Spaniards had the right to reclaim Spain and the Kingdom of Granada from the Moors after 800 years of occupation.

[Dunedain]

Jews are leery of someone who seems to have an unbalanced, excessively negative view of either Zionism or Israel?

Are you leery of someone who has excessively negative views of Nazism or Nazi Germany? No, right?

You appear to be apologizing for a racist, Jews only, genocidal ideology and country; you are simply a Jewish supremacist neo-neo-nazi. Israel has taken a page from the nazis and has done what they could not. Jews have put Arabs in concentration camps and then bombed the hell out of them using my tax dollars. At least the nazis funded their own schemes instead of milking it out of other countries.

[ElyaKatz]

Move to Israel if you love them so much. Maybe one day you will have the chance to plug up a hole used to deliver medicine, food, etc. to millions of starving homeless kids. Or better yet, drive one of those bulldozers yourself into a home occupied by 4 families, uproot their gardens, and possibly execute the providing male of the family.

After all, this is what you support if you condone Israel's actions.

Typical. As soon as someone defends Israel, then they are told to move there. You move to Gaza if you love it so much. As far as the alleged acts you ascribe to the Israelis, please provide proof from a reliable source. But since, in my opinion, your ad hominems are off point, I do not promise to respond. I suggest you start another thread, maybe on starving homeless kids in Gaza. And if you think I am a troll, then maybe you shouldn't "feed the troll"?? Just a suggestion.

[LATruth]

If you have a problem with that, then explain to me why the Spaniards had the right to reclaim Spain and the Kingdom of Granada from the Moors after 800 years of occupation.


Are the Moors still being walled in, living in aparthied, with over 50% of the population under the age 16?


Typical. As soon as someone defends Israel, then they are told to move there. You move to Gaza if you love it so much. As far as the alleged acts you ascribe to the Israelis, please provide proof from a reliable source.


HAHHAH I never said I loved Gaza so much, do you deny the wall being built and tunnels being bombed that sustain life?

YouTube - The Palestinian Perspective: What the World Looks Like from the West Bank an... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSkevV-CoO4)

Your pro-Israel propaganda makes me want to vomit.

[ElyaKatz]

Are you leery of someone who has excessively negative views of Nazism or Nazi Germany? No, right?

You appear to be apologizing for a racist, Jews only, genocidal ideology and country; you are simply a Jewish supremacist neo-neo-nazi. Israel has taken a page from the nazis and has done what they could not. Jews have put Arabs in concentration camps and then bombed the hell out of them using my tax dollars. At least the nazis funded their own schemes instead of milking it out of other countries.

This is another ad hominem. Does no one here know how to debate an issue or are thread hijacks the only way political opponents know how to deal with their frustration??

As far as the allegations you ascribe to Israel, again, please provide reliable proof. Maybe try to response to the base post. But bear in mind, if you take the time to do so, that I feel no obligation whatsoever to take on every single accusation leveled against Israel here. I suggest (and it is only a suggestion) that you read my base post, and the title of the thread. That's the topic that will be debated here. This isn't the "Everything you hate about Israel thread"....

[ElyaKatz]

Are the Moors still being walled in, living in aparthied, with over 50% of the population under the age 16?

No. They were driven off the land via fire and blood. I suspect a lot of them died during that 800 year campaign to drive them off Spanish soil. The Spaniards were fortunate enough not to have the world interfering in their natural G-d given rights to reclaim their land via the UN.

[ElyaKatz]

Are you leery of someone who has excessively negative views of Nazism or Nazi Germany? No, right?

You appear to be apologizing for a racist, Jews only, genocidal ideology and country; you are simply a Jewish supremacist neo-neo-nazi. Israel has taken a page from the nazis and has done what they could not. Jews have put Arabs in concentration camps and then bombed the hell out of them using my tax dollars. At least the nazis funded their own schemes instead of milking it out of other countries.
No parallel. The Germans were the aggressors, the Germans waged a propaganda war against a peaceful, productive, patriotic Jewish community, then they went on an insane, determined rampage to destroy them to the last infant, and steal every bit of property the Jewish community possessed, even gold fillings, their hair, their shoes, their glasses. In fact, the Germans still possess much stolen Jewish property. The Germans have little reason to be looking over their shoulder.

[LATruth]

What a wonderful country you defend so vehemently... looks like such a pleasant place to raise a Palestinian child. I wish I could be there.

http://www.eurozine.com/UserFiles/illustrations/2006-05-30-parsberg_2.jpg

http://imeu.net/engine/uploads/gaza-house-demolition-large.jpg

http://emperor.vwh.net/abdo/capt.lon81603251640.israel_palestinians_lon816.jpg

http://www.racewire.org/archives/checkpoint.jpg

http://emperor.vwh.net/abdo/r1440422568.jpg

http://www.pchrgaza.ps/images/2005/weekly29.jpg

[Dunedain]

This is another ad hominem. Does no one here know how to debate an issue or are thread hijacks the only way political opponents know how to deal with their frustration??

As far as the allegations you ascribe to Israel, again, please provide reliable proof. Maybe try to response to the base post. But bear in mind, if you take the time to do so, that I feel no obligation whatsoever to take on every single accusation leveled against Israel here. I suggest (and it is only a suggestion) that you read my base post, and the title of the thread. That's the topic that will be debated here. This isn't the "Everything you hate about Israel thread"....

How do you debate with a Jewish Supremacist neo-nazi position? Um...noooo, you don't have a right to genocide others. I think that is self-evident.

Are you denying the Palestinian Holocaust? Provide you with evidence indeed! How sick of you to even have the Chutzpah to demand it.
http://americanbuilt.us/images/holocaust/dead-children.jpg

You can do your own research on all the murderous crimes your much loved zio-nazi state has committed with my tax dollars. Count the missing limbs of the children your racist ideology has torn off while you are at it.

[Dr.3D]

Out of curiosity, I decided to check just the first quote amy31416 posted.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.


We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Shabtai Teveth, Ben Gurion: The Burning Ground; and Fabricating Israeli History: The 'New Historians (2000) by Efraim Karsh (http://books.google.com/books?id=nvgat25ddU4C&pg=PR17&ots=5I6MnIhxg2&dq=must+expel+Arabs+and+take+their+places&sig=qhbFe-nltg7LxD7ycIlZKDjmEZo#PPR17,M1); this has been extensively misquoted as "[We] must expel Arabs and take their places" after appearing in this form in The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949 (1987) by Benny Morris, p. 25.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion Now I have to wonder how many more of those quotes are actually misquotes.

[amy31416]

On human shields and Israel's accusations against Hamas:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4333982.stm
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3387356,00.html
http://www.btselem.org/english/human_shields/20060720_human_shields_in_beit_hanun.asp
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1065594.html

[ElyaKatz]

Are the Moors still being walled in, living in aparthied, with over 50% of the population under the age 16?


HAHHAH I never said I loved Gaza so much, do you deny the wall being built and tunnels being bombed that sustain life?

Yes I would. Walls are being built to keep suicide bombers out of Israel and tunnels are being bombed that are used to smuggle weapons that are then used to destroy Jewish homes and schools.


Your pro-Israel propaganda makes me want to vomit.

If that's the case LA, then why are you here? You know what I'm going to write.

[ElyaKatz]

Out of curiosity, I decided to check just the first quote amy31416 posted.


Now I have to wonder how many more of those quotes are actually misquotes.

It's worth researching.

[amy31416]

Out of curiosity, I decided to check just the first quote amy31416 posted.


Now I have to wonder how many more of those quotes are actually misquotes.

http://books.google.com/books?id=OjuKhNEmFvoC&pg=PA188&lpg=PA188&dq=%22we+must+expel+arabs%22+gurion&source=bl&ots=M0j9M-onhQ&sig=V7wfcyzIsL5DxD8YBBNH2M0_SMk&hl=en&ei=D8uISsX-G82ltgerlODnDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#v=onepage&q=%22we%20must%20expel%20arabs%22%20gurion&f=false

[Dunedain]

No parallel. The Germans were the agressors, the Germans waged a propaganda war against a peaceful, productive, patriotic Jewish community, then they went on an insane, determined rampage to destroy them to the last infant, and steal every bit of property the Jewish community possessed, even gold fillings, their hair, their shoes, their glasses. In fact, the Germans still possess much stolen Jewish property. The Germans have little reason to be looking over their shoulder.


You just described what Jews are doing to Arabs, except Palestinians don't have any gold fillings for the Jews to steal, and they are low on glasses and shoes also. Arabs are pushed into your concentration camps in Gaza and the West Bank and they blame ME for funding it, and I want my money back.

[Dr.3D]

http://books.google.com/books?id=OjuKhNEmFvoC&pg=PA188&lpg=PA188&dq=%22we+must+expel+arabs%22+gurion&source=bl&ots=M0j9M-onhQ&sig=V7wfcyzIsL5DxD8YBBNH2M0_SMk&hl=en&ei=D8uISsX-G82ltgerlODnDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#v=onepage&q=%22we%20must%20expel%20arabs%22%20gurion&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=OjuKhNEmFvoC&pg=PA188&lpg=PA188&dq=%22we+must+expel+arabs%22+gurion&source=bl&ots=M0j9M-onhQ&sig=V7wfcyzIsL5DxD8YBBNH2M0_SMk&hl=en&ei=D8uISsX-G82ltgerlODnDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#v=onepage&q=%22we%20must%20expel%20arabs%22%20gurion&f=false)
So who is to say Ilan Pappé didn't misquote what Ben Gurion actually said?

[amy31416]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/israel/nuke.html
http://www.cdi.org/issues/nukef&f/database/isnukes.html
http://www.atomicarchive.com/Almanac/IsraeliFacilities_static.shtml
http://msnbc.com/news/wld/graphics/strategic_israel_dw.htm
http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Israel/Nuclear/

[LATruth]

Yes I would. Walls are being built to keep suicide bombers out of Israel and tunnels are being bombed that are used to smuggle weapons that are then used to destroy Jewish homes and schools.


Pathetic, truly. When you are trying to feed millions of malnourished people I would say that weapons would take a backseat in the priorities list of what to smuggle into Gaza...

You're lucky I'm not a MOD here, you would have been banned for peddling blatant, pro-genocidal, Israeli propaganda.

Please try to remember that when you post here, you post among free thinking, informed, no-kool-aid drinking motherfuckers that see through the lies. Maybe your time would be better spent fraternizing on the Obama forums, I hear the pro-Israeli movement is alive and well there, they may ever have Rahm Emmanuel and Netanyahu nudie pics for you as well.

[Dr.3D]

Pathetic, truly. When you are trying to feed millions of malnourished people I would say that weapons would take a backseat in the priorities list of what to smuggle into Gaza...

You're lucky I'm not a MOD here, you would have been banned for peddling blatant, pro-genocidal, Israeli propaganda.

Please try to remember that when you post here, you post among free thinking, informed, no-kool-aid drinking motherfuckers that see through the lies. Maybe your time would be better spent fraternizing on the Obama forums, I hear the pro-Israeli movement is alive and well there, they may ever have Rahm Emmanuel and Netanyahu nudie pics for you as well.
And just what makes you think you haven't been duped by the pro Palestine propaganda machine?

[Dunedain]

Please try to remember that when you post here, you post among free thinking, informed, no-kool-aid drinking motherfuckers that see through the lies.

Holy crap...this place is feeling like home already.

[amy31416]

http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq22.html
http://attendingtheworld.wordpress.com/2008/03/29/israeli-terrorism-massacre-of-deir-yassin/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Odeh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

[Dunedain]

And just what makes you think you haven't been duped by the pro Palestine propaganda machine?

hmmm...I don't see a lot of anything anti-israel in the MSM.

[LATruth]

And just what makes you think you haven't been duped by the pro Palestine propaganda machine?

riiiight....

[Dr.3D]

hmmm...not on any of the channels on my T.V. Radio maybe?
The machine is alive and well in the internet.

[Dunedain]

The machine is alive and well in the internet.

they're marginalized by the MSM too...huh? The Internet is the last refuge of truth these days.

[amy31416]

http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf
http://my.opera.com/salventura/blog/the-hasbara-handbook
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23044.htm
http://www.muzzlewatch.com/2009/03/19/hasbara-handbook-how-to-pretend-to-debate-while-smashing-your-opponent/

[Dr.3D]

they're marginalized by the MSM too...huh? The Internet is the last refuge of truth these days.
LOL, reminds me of the song Alice's Restaurant.

You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant.

You can also find any truth you want on the internet. It seems to be just a matter of who's truth you want to believe.

[LATruth]

The Internet is the last refuge of truth these days.

That too is being stripped away, piece by piece. I love incremental tyranny, you hardly even notice it!

[ElyaKatz]

How do you debate with a Jewish Supremacist neo-nazi position? Um...noooo, you don't have a right to genocide others. I think that is self-evident.

Are you denying the Palestinian Holocaust? Provide you with evidence indeed! How sick of you to even have the Chutzpah to demand it.
http://americanbuilt.us/images/holocaust/dead-children.jpg

You can do your own research on all the murderous crimes your much loved zio-nazi state has committed with my tax dollars. Count the missing limbs of the children your racist ideology has torn off while you are at it.

The photos show dead children. They do not show who killed these children and under what circumstances. Have you seen the Arab babies with bomb belts strapped to them? Have you witnessed the the Arab mothers celebrating their son's suicide bombings?? This is a tragedy. It is somebody's tragedy, but there is no way to know how this tragedy happened, who is to blame and who is the grieving party. It's one thing to get everyone's emotions worked up over such photos, but it simply does not prove that Israelis targeted these children. There has been so much lying on the part of Pallywood that it is very difficult to sort through and find out what the truth is with only photos to go by.

[ElyaKatz]

You just described what Jews are doing to Arabs, except Palestinians don't have any gold fillings for the Jews to steal, and they are low on glasses and shoes also. Arabs are pushed into your concentration camps in Gaza and the West Bank and they blame ME for funding it, and I want my money back.

Tell you what. I think President Obama has signed a bill that will finally allow the trapped Gaza Arabs to leave the Gaza strip. And civilians should leave. It's a war zone. I have, with all sincerity believed that the civilians in the Gaza strip need to get out of the way.

Let the IDF and Hamas battle it out without danger being posed to the civilians. Many of these civilians will probably receive funds from the US government (I know, that damned US foreign aid again) in order to resettle here. So, when they do, you can personally apologize that your tax dollars were used to buy Israeli weapons that murdered their innocents. With any luck these folks will move very close to you and you'll have a convenient opportunity at some point. Will that make you feel better?

Disclaimer: Parts of this post is for entertainment purposes only. It in no way admits to the allegations posed against Israel or the IDF by the accuser, said ryanrayner. I'm serious that it's good if the Gaza civilians leave. They are definitely in danger with Hamas ruling them.

[LATruth]

The photos show dead children. They do not show who killed these children and under what circumstances. Have you seen the Arab babies with bomb belts strapped to them? Have you witnessed the the Arab mothers celebrating their son's suicide bombings?? This is a tragedy. It is somebody's tragedy, but there is no way to know how this tragedy happened, who is to blame and who is the grieving party. It's one thing to get everyone's emotions worked up over such photos, but it simply does not prove that Israelis targeted these children. There has been so much lying on the part of Pallywood that it is very difficult to sort through and find out what the truth is with only photos to go by.

You resort to such tactics when you don't have Cobra gunships, tanks, and F-16's. Excuse the Palestinians for acting in such a barbaric manner, maybe I should e-mail their leader and petition him to apply for some U.S. government weapons and aid to level the playing field a bit more.

Your omission of certain facts regarding the available means of force for the Palestinians vs Israel is just as bad as lying about it.

[amy31416]

JIDF
CAMERA
SPLC
ADL
Megaphone
AIPAC
GIYUS


Amongst others. Perhaps you wouldn't need so much propaganda if you just did the right thing. I know, you're just very misunderstood oppressors and you need a giant army of people to defend your actions, such as shooting off white phosphorous in Gaza.

[Flash]

What do you make of the fact that the majority of Jews in Israel are either from or descended from Jews from Arabic lands, Sephardi Jews,

Sephardic Jews are Meds, they come from Iberia mostly.


and what of Ethiopian, Chinese, Indian, and South American Jews??

They're converts to Judaism.


You seem to have a hard time grasping the concept of a religio-nation when it comes to Jews.

No, I don't. Ashkenazi Jews make up 80% of Jewry. And when it comes to the descendents of Abraham, it is good to be precise. From my research, it seems as if Judaism is an invented religion that was NOT followed by the 12 Israelite Tribes. And I have a pretty good feeling on where the tribes are today.


Do you have the same difficulties when it comes to a Jew free new Arab nation called Palestine, or the one called Jordan, or Saudi Arabia, or Egypt or....??? I could go on, but you might get my point.

It's been proven Saudis haven't changed racially, as they have never had a major immigration into their Arabian peninsula. Egyptians have been genetically proven to be the same as ancient Egyptians. And Palestinians are very similiar to other Levant natives like the Lebanese & Syrians.




Even if the Khazarian claims were credible or relevant, which they are not,

Yes they are. Otherwise the whole concept of blond-haired, blue-eyed Israelites being exiled, magically begin claling themselves Jews, just sounds silly. Like I said, Ashkenazis are either Meds, Alpines, or Nordics. Not from the Levant where Israel is.


your sources are spurious and unreliable, not even close to objective.

I didn't post any sources, it all comes from my own knowledge of anthropology and reading genetecist studies.


If you reject that the Jews lived in the Land of Israel throughout the last 3,000 years,

For one, Jews aren't Israelites, this can't be repeated enough.


and for much of that as the majority, and as a nation with it's own laws and specific culture (albeit occupied by foreign powers much of the time) and thus they have the right to re-constitute their nation on that same historic homeland, then you need to also take up the cause of the Moors. Furthermore, your logic leads me to believe you are morally obligated to give your home to the nearest Native American or Mexican, the Inuit or Polynesians, depending on your location within the current nation called the united States of America.

How? I am native to America, my people were here first according to Anthropologists and tons of evidence.




Tell that to the Native Americans....

I will and already have. The Clovis European people were first upon the continent. I do not wish to debate about this if I don't have to (since it's derailed threads in the pasts) but I have a bunch of evidence supporting my claims. The Soultrean culture is actually what my ancestors were apart of. So, I have much more right to North America than Amerindian Mongolids from Siberia do.

But my arguement with Israel isn't that Jews shouldn't live there. It's this:

1) No proof of Israeliets being Jews and vice versa. See my points earlier in this post and my previous one.
2) No bullying of Palestinians. Remove the concentration camps.
3) No foreign aid given to israel blah blah blah.

[ElyaKatz]

So who is to say Ilan Pappé didn't misquote what Ben Gurion actually said?

Pappe is a communist. In Israel this usually means an anti-Jew Jew, one who tends towards treason. Thus, his views and research are suspect to me.

Pappes work is widely criticized in Israel, and is also questioned by Benny Morris, among Israels' "new historians. Benny Morris, who states that "although war crimes were committed, there's "no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre." In criticizing Pappe, Morris states, "Unfortunately much of what Pappé tries to sell his readers is complete fabrication. This book is awash with errors of a quantity and a quality that are not found in serious historiography. The multiplicity of mistakes on each page is a product of both Pappé's historical methodology and his political proclivities. For those enamored with subjectivity and in thrall to historical relativism, a fact is not a fact and accuracy is unattainable."

Wikipedia on Ilan Pappe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Papp%C3%A9)

[revolutionisnow]

Communist means anti Jew? Communism was a Jewish brainchild and movement!

http://blog.balder.org/billeder-blog/Illustrated-Sunday-Herald-1920-Churchill-Zionism-Versus-Bolshevism.jpg

2 awful ideologies, both of which are destroying this country

[amy31416]

Pappe is a communist. In Israel this usually means an anti-Jew Jew, one who tends towards treason. Thus, his views and research are suspect to me.

Pappes work is widely criticized in Israel, and is also questioned by Benny Morris, among Israels' "new historians. Benny Morris, who states that "although war crimes were committed, there's "no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre." In criticizing Pappe, Morris states, "Unfortunately much of what Pappé tries to sell his readers is complete fabrication. This book is awash with errors of a quantity and a quality that are not found in serious historiography. The multiplicity of mistakes on each page is a product of both Pappé's historical methodology and his political proclivities. For those enamored with subjectivity and in thrall to historical relativism, a fact is not a fact and accuracy is unattainable."

Wikipedia on Ilan Pappe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Papp%C3%A9)

Same deal on Finkelstein and any other Jew who dares to be intellectually honest enough to criticize Israel's policies.

The "self-hating Jew" argument gets pretty old when Israel is actually committing the atrocities that they criticize it for.

I do admire how you stick to your guns though:

Someone criticizes Israel? ANTI-SEMITE!
A Jew criticizes Israel? Self-Hating Jew!"
The UN grants Israel statehood, then eventually criticizes them for their actions in stealing land? THEY'RE BIASED AGAINST ISRAEL!

Accch. Don't you eventually get tired of yourself? Wouldn't you rather be doing something great with your life? Is it not true that Israel could be a beacon of Democracy, rationality, peace, humility and humanity in the Middle East, yet they choose violence, oppression, paranoia and hatred instead?

Completely tiresome. Which is just one more reason I want Israel out of our government and certainly off of our welfare roles. Time to put on the big-boy pants, Israel--you have hundreds of nukes, plenty of arms, lots of money, cut the god damned apron strings and stand or fall on your own.

[ElyaKatz]

Communist means anti Jew? Communism was a Jewish brainchild and movement!

http://blog.balder.org/billeder-blog/Illustrated-Sunday-Herald-1920-Churchill-Zionism-Versus-Bolshevism.jpg

2 awful ideologies, both of which are destroying this country

Communism in Israel is a different animal completely. Known fact to most Israelis.

[ElyaKatz]

http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf
http://my.opera.com/salventura/blog/the-hasbara-handbook
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23044.htm
http://www.muzzlewatch.com/2009/03/19/hasbara-handbook-how-to-pretend-to-debate-while-smashing-your-opponent/

Thanks for the information. I'll read it more thoroughly at some point. Since I don't express my viewpoints on Israel in a professional capacity, I will have to take some time to look it over.

[Pod]

Let me sum up the article, "Palestinians are just your generic Arabs so they can just fuck off to other Arabian countries."

[ElyaKatz]

Same deal on Finkelstein and any other Jew who dares to be intellectually honest enough to criticize Israel's policies.
There has been, throughout history the Jewish version of the proverbial "Uncle Tom." They don't have my respect. I'll deal with the rest of the above quoted post later.

I have, once again, witnessed a thread that dares to present a pro-Israel perspective based on history and facts, and I watch as it gets totally derailed. Have any of my ideological opponents actually dealt with the base post of this thread, which in forum courtesy, is supposed to be the topic of this thread?

This is not the "Israel bashing thread". This is a discussion on whether or not there is in fact, a people called the Palestinian people that goes back before 1967?? Do the Arab people really believe there is a Palestinian people? Who were the Palestinians before 1948?? I am going to comb through these tiresome posts, mostly childish ad hominems, and see if there is anything in response to the base post that has anything worthwhile to respond to.

Polemical discussions are not helpful. I much prefer an intellectual discussion. But this thread is helpful in one way. In the irrational, repeatedly off-point responses, I see people who have very weak arguments.

[ElyaKatz]

Single issue poster. Have you been reading the threads? Can you show me where OP even addressed a Liberty issue?
In my base post here, I go over what my motivation is in honing in on those here who focus on Israel as if America's support of Israel is the sum and substance of all our problems, as if anti-Zionism = Liberty.

[Pod]

This is not the "Israel bashing thread". This is a discussion on whether or not there is in fact, a people called the Palestinian people that goes back before 1967?? Do the Arab people really believe there is a Palestinian people? Who were the Palestinians before 1948?? I am going to comb through these tiresome posts, mostly childish ad hominems, and see if there is anything in response to the base post that has anything worthwhile to respond to.

Oh we wouldn`t dare bash Israel. It is clear that if there isn`t a Palestinian people then it is alright to ethnicaly cleanse them. I mean it is no crime to victimise generic Arabs everyone knows that.

You can stick your collectivism where the sun don`t shine. We couldn`t care less what people the victims belong to. They are induviduals and have a right to their property, lives and freedom as such. The induvidual is the bearer of rights not the collective.

In your twisted mind it is a lesser crime to expell a part of a large people than it is to expell the whole of a small people, but 5 million people driven from their homes is 5 million people driven from their homes. Wether they be Arab, Palestinian or Scythians for all it matters.

[ramallamamama]

Wow, another AIPAC PSYOP.

[ElyaKatz]

What a wonderful country you defend so vehemently... looks like such a pleasant place to raise a Palestinian child. I wish I could be there.


It is rough to see Arab children so terribly mistreated. Inhumane.


http://emperor.vwh.net/abdo/capt.lon81603251640.israel_palestinians_lon816.jpg

http://emperor.vwh.net/abdo/r1440422568.jpg

These two photos are of a 14 year old boy who had been paid NIS 100 by fellow Arab men (about $20-30 depending on the exchange rate at the time) to strap a suicide bomb belt to his waist. "A Tanzim cell from the Balata refugee camp in Nablus claimed responsibility for sending the boy." The story can be found here, and probably at other sites as well:

14-year-old suicide bomber intercepted (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2004/3/14-year-old%20suicide%20bomber%20intercepted%2024-Mar-2004)

The Israeli soldiers were actually very gentle with him. I had Israeli satellite TV at the time and watched the entire episode from start to finish. I looked for Youtube videos of this episode, but they've been pulled. Anyway, it was very sad, and really upset the Israeli soldiers. Hamas and the Taliban have been reported to kidnap children for use as suicide bombers. You can see the sapper's robot sent to the boy with scissors so he could cut the bomb belt off. It is next to the boy on the lower right part of the top photo.


Contrast that to the absolute terror that this IDF soldier strikes into the hearts of these Arab children.

YouTube - Israeli Solder Entertains Kids at Border (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJGyfvoJz64)

Look, I know it's hard to wrap our civilized American minds around this fact, but there is true evil being primed against Israel in Fatah, Hezbollah and Hamas. There was a recent video, also pulled by Youtube, where Hezbollah was teaching grade school children to eat live snakes. They then gave each child a cute little puppy. The puppies were wriggling and licking the children's faces. They were then instructed to break the puppies necks as they yelled at the children "Kill the Jews!". Hard to imagine in this day and age, but what Israel is fighting is not a battle between two civilizations. It is a battle between utter barbarity and civilization. I make no claim that Israel or Israelis are perfect. I got angry with Israelis many times while I lived there. They're not as polite as I am accustomed to. On the other hand, they will give you the shirt off their backs if they see you need it. Israel is far from perfect and any Israeli will admit as much very readily. The contrast between the general, normal goodness of Israelis and the pure evil of Fatah, Hezbollah and Hamas is a stark contrast. It's shocking, right down to the bones once one encounters it face to face.

I have been a guest in Arab homes. They are not all like Hamas and Hezbollah. The families I visited on several occasions, one in Nazareth, and one Bedouin family, would put any American to shame in the level of honor and hospitality they accord their guests. As I have written many times, before Yasir Arafat and his murderous henchmen were resurrected from political death on the beaches of Tunisia, Israeli Jews and the Arabs, both within the Green Line and the Administered Territories were working out a defacto peace, and had begun to develop friendships. In fact, there had been some very long-standing friendships, some of which do still endure the current political difficulties.

The Arabs in Gaza, in Judea and Samaria, and in Lebanon are the first and foremost victims of Fatah, Hamas and Hezbollah.

YouTube - Nonie Darwish - Jihad Culture (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCNtKSLZNJY)
YouTube - Walid Shoebat-Ex-Islamist Speaks against Islam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w8nTcjDdzk)

Noni Darwish and Walid Shoebat will tell you what it was like to grow up under the thumbs of Fatah, and Hamas. Walid Shoebat came home shocked one day and told his father that his teachers were teaching the boys how to rape Jewish girls. Walid expressed his natural revulsion to this crime and was told by his father "no son, this is good."

[Pod]

Hard to imagine in this day and age, but what Israel is fighting is not a battle between two civilizations. It is a battle between utter barbarity and civilization.


Is that you Adolf? Reminds me of the battle between eropean civilisation and the judeobolshevik barbarism.

[ElyaKatz]

Is that you Adolf? Reminds me of the battle between eropean civilisation and the judeobolshevik barbarism.

And this is the best counterpoint you can make?? :D

[ElyaKatz]

Let me sum up the article, "Palestinians are just your generic Arabs so they can just fuck off to other Arabian countries."

They refuse to live in peace with Jews. What is your solution?

[ElyaKatz]

Oh we wouldn`t dare bash Israel. It is clear that if there isn`t a Palestinian people then it is alright to ethnicaly cleanse them. I mean it is no crime to victimise generic Arabs everyone knows that.

You can stick your collectivism where the sun don`t shine. We couldn`t care less what people the victims belong to. They are induviduals and have a right to their property, lives and freedom as such. The induvidual is the bearer of rights not the collective.

In your twisted mind it is a lesser crime to expell a part of a large people than it is to expell the whole of a small people, but 5 million people driven from their homes is 5 million people driven from their homes. Wether they be Arab, Palestinian or Scythians for all it matters.

And the Jews??? It's okay to expel them I suppose? It's not okay for Jews to defend themselves? Then they are being barbarians? When the time comes that you have to defend yourself agains fanatical jihadis in America, do remember your words.

[ElyaKatz]

LOL, reminds me of the song Alice's Restaurant.


You can also find any truth you want on the internet. It seems to be just a matter of who's truth you want to believe.

I really like Alices' Restaurant. I think i'm going to buy me an mp3 copy. I had the LP, but I think I tossed it out one day, in a fit of getting rid of old stuff.

[Pod]

And this is the best counterpoint you can make?? :D

LOL. Of course it is the best point. All genodical freaks present themselves as being paragons of civilisation with the massacres being neccesitied by the barbarity of the enemy. As soon as someone claims himself to be the civilised fighting the barbarous red flags start to go up for anyone versed in history.

[Pod]

And the Jews??? It's okay to expel them I suppose? It's not okay for Jews to defend themselves? Then they are being barbarians? When the time comes that you have to defend yourself agains fanatical jihadis in America, do remember your words.

Yes I`m sure. You`re fighting them over there so we don`t have to fight them over here.

But wait, what did Ron Paul say about that?

[Pod]

They refuse to live in peace with Jews. What is your solution?


When I refuse to live in peace with a burglar in my house the solution is for the burglar to leave.

The solution if for all the stolen property to be returned to their rightful owners or their descendands. That includes confiscated land.

How much of Israel`s land mass is made of land owned by Arabs expelled from their villages? Two-thirds?

[ElyaKatz]

When I refuse to live in peace with a burglar in my house the solution is for the burglar to leave.

Right. We've tried that, but burglars keep coming. We're back. No apologies.


The solution if for all the stolen property to be returned to their rightful owners or their descendands. That includes confiscated land.

Exactly. But that land is Jewish land, not Arab land. The Arabs began expropriating the land beginning in the mid 600's. There is no statute of limitations on a stolen national homeland. There is a reason why Arabs come from the lands of Arabia, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates....

Arabs are not indigenous to Judea and Samaria. We'll see how smug you are when they do the same thing in America they have done all over the world. And after 500 years of Arab occupation of America, and an imposition of sharia, after Americans finally get the backbone up to fight for their way of life again, for their constitution, will they ask Israel for help? Wow. What a sad picture that is. I don't look forward to it.


How much of Israel`s land mass is made of land owned by Arabs expelled from their villages? Two-thirds?

According to which source? My sources say very little, if any. The land was legally purchased from Arab effendis over a long period of time, at very inflated prices. Other lands in Eretz Israel was won in wars of defense by Israel. Land can't be acquired in wars of aggression, but in wars of defense, particularly if the land is needed to thwart future attacks, it's perfectly legitimate to keep the land the defending party has won.

[ElyaKatz]

LOL. Of course it is the best point. All genodical freaks present themselves as being paragons of civilisation with the massacres being neccesitied by the barbarity of the enemy. As soon as someone claims himself to be the civilised fighting the barbarous red flags start to go up for anyone versed in history.

Ahh more ad hominems. Looking weak. There is really a scarcity of facts coming my way from my opponents.

[Bman]

But that land is Jewish land, not Arab land.

God just told me the land is mine. I expect all of you to be out by next week.

[Pod]

Right. We've tried that, but burglars keep coming. We're back. No apologies.



Exactly. But that land is Jewish land, not Arab land. The Arabs began expropriating the land beginning in the mid 600's. There is no statute of limitations on a stolen national homeland. There is a reason why Arabs come from the lands of Arabia, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates....

Arabs are not indigenous to Judea and Samaria. We'll see how smug you are when they do the same thing in America they have done all over the world. And after 500 years of Arab occupation of America, and an imposition of sharia, after Americans finally get the backbone up to fight for their way of life again, for their constitution, will they ask Israel for help? Wow. What a sad picture that is. I don't look forward to it.



According to which source? My sources say very little, if any. The land was legally purchased from Arab effendis over a long period of time, at very inflated prices. Other lands in Eretz Israel was won in wars of defense by Israel. Land can't be acquired in wars of aggression, but in wars of defense, particularly if the land is needed to thwart future attacks, it's perfectly legitimate to keep the land the defending party has won.

The era of European colonialism is over. You are a Western colonialist implant on Asian soil. Learn to adapt and accomodate the natives or get out.

The whites of South Africa surrendered their supremacy in 1994. When will you surrender yours?

[ElyaKatz]

The era of European colonialism is over. You are a Western colonialist implant on Asian soil. Learn to adapt and accomodate the natives or get out.

The whites of South Africa surrendered their supremacy in 1994. When will you surrender yours?

You write this as if you actually have something to say about it all. You don't. You have your propaganda. That's all. None of you has responded to any facts with counter-facts, only hyperbole and drama. Questionable sources from questionable "researchers", photos that are not attributed to the correct event or are untraceable, at least as presented.

There is no way to have an intelligent debate here on points and counterpoints. None. Because you're all so convinced. I will say this again. If the Jews, who have been proven to be overwhelmingly Middle Eastern by actual genetic science, do not have a claim on their land, which can be proven to have been expropriated by the very people who claim the same crime falsely, then most Americans on the continent of North America and South America had better start packing and go back to where they came from, be it Europe, Africa, China or wherever, and leave the occupied territories of America to the original Native Americans, because this land has only been a nation run by foreigners for a bit over 200 years, a drop in the bucket of history.

Compared to most residents of the America's, Jewish claims to the Land of Israel is undeniable. So, everyone but the Flash guy...pack up. Go home.

[Objectivist]

It's the home of the Jews.

[Bman]

Elya,

mid-600's you are kidding aren't you? If you are being serious, well, may god have mercy on your soul.

If you think society should go back 1500 years into the past to decide who should live where, you are flat out bonkers.

So by your accounts I just have to go back in history, find an instance of when someone kicked my ancestors off a property, claim it as my own?

Are you so sure no one was there before your ancestors? More claims to come? Pure nonsense?

[ElyaKatz]

Elya,

mid-600's you are kidding aren't you? If you are being serious, well, may god have mercy on your soul.

If you think society should go back 1500 years into the past to decide who should live where, you are flat out bonkers.

So by your accounts I just have to go back in history, find an instance of when someone kicked my ancestors off a property, claim it as my own?

Are you so sure no one was there before your ancestors? More claims to come? Pure nonsense?

Read Netanyahu's A Place Among the Nations. He is an excellent historian, and explains very clearly the legalities of stolen homelands. Like I have said several times, it took the Spaniards a total of 800 years to get back their lands from the Muslims (Moors). For those years, they were pushed into a little tiny corner of northern Spain. It took the Jewish people 1200 years to do the same thing, and much more peacefully, only resorting to violence when forced to defend themselves. The same principles apply in both situations. The reason you can't see it is because history has ceased to matter to you. Only the present matters, but the present is an extension of the past, and is affected in very real ways by the past.

If someone stole your home, do you relinquish or fight for it? There were many, many attempts from the 600's on for Jews to return to their homeland, but they were often illegally prevented from doing so by the occupying powers. Never have the Jewish people relinquished their rights to their homeland. Every single day, for a minimum of 3 times a day, the Jewish people laid a renewed claim to "Zion". Moreover, the Jewish people have not disappeared. Thus, with those two conditions in place, there exists no statute of limitations on our stolen homeland. The claims of the Arab people are inferior to those of the original owners, similar in many ways to the claims of a homeowner...with some significant differences.

No, I am absolutely not kidding. Does it look like Israeli Jews are kidding?? They are very, very serious, and will fight to the last man to remain on their land.

Arabs were not thrown out of their homes in order for the Jewish people to rebuild their lives in Israel, Arab propaganda notwithstanding. Furthermore, just as many Jews can claim an equally long lineage of family having never left the region, probably more. There was already a nation of Israel in the Land. In 1948 the only thing that changed was the worlds' official recognition.

[ElyaKatz]

may god have mercy on your soul.
Thank you. He is very merciful to us all. Good thing too.

[ElyaKatz]

The era of European colonialism is over. You are a Western colonialist implant on Asian soil. Learn to adapt and accomodate the natives or get out.

The whites of South Africa surrendered their supremacy in 1994. When will you surrender yours?

Over half of the Jewish population presently living in Israel came from Arab lands, many thrown out of their homes, forced to arrive in Israel with only the clothes on their backs. Several of these Jewish communities in Arab/Muslim nations could trace their families back to the first exile. And yet, they lost everything...due to Muslim bigotry.

Jewish Genetics (http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewish-genetics/)

Excerpt:

"Although the Ashkenazi (European) Jewish community separated from their Mediterranean ancestors some 1,200 years ago and lived among Central and Eastern European gentiles, their paternal gene pool still resembles that of other Jewish and Semitic groups originating in the Middle East.

A low rate of intermarriage between Diaspora Jews and local gentiles was the key reason for this continuity. Since the Jews first settled in Europe more than 50 generations ago, the intermarriage rate was estimated to be only about 0.5% in each generation.

The Ashkenazi paternal gene pool does not appear to be similar to that of present-day Turkish speakers. This finding opposes the suggestion that Ashkenazim are descended from the Kuzars, a Turkish-Asian empire that converted to Judaism en masse in or about the 8th century CE."

What did you say about European colonialism?

In my opinion, since most Americans are of European descent, and have no "dog" in the Middle Eastern conflict, those acting more like European colonial powers are the American government, which has the chutzpah to tell Jews in their homeland of Israel where they can and can't build, and -- no big surprise -- the EU. Americans and Europeans should just butt out and let the cousins work things out. Do business?? Sure. But leave Middle Easterners to their own disputes. It will end very quickly if these peoples are respected enough to be left alone to duke it out.

Another interesting fact: Have you ever listened to Jewish chanting when praying in Hebrew and Arabic chanting during prayers?? They sound very similar. There's a reason for that. Oh, and the two (well three if one includes Aramaic) languages are closely related.

To deny all of these links, evidence and facts seems to me to approach the absurd. Don't try to sell the mass conversion fallacy. What people would choose to be driven from land to land, enduring expropriations and pogroms if there weren't a continuous generational link from Sinai and the giving of the Torah to now?

Well, this has been fun, but I must get on with my life. Cya sometime. Thanks for helping me dig further for evidence of what I already knew was the wonderful truth. I am a member of an amazing people with an incredible past and an even more incredible future. What a privilege.

Be well all. Be happy. Know G-d...it's the only way to true happiness as He created your soul and knows where you belong in world. We all have a very special purpose to fulfill. Knowing one's place in the world is the only way to understand the world.

[Bman]

No, I am absolutely not kidding. Does it look like Israeli Jews are kidding?? They are very, very serious, and will fight to the last man to remain on their land.


Right on.

Very peaceful solution, huh? Us and them. Thanks for proving one of my prior point to you.

I'd think trade would be a much better system.

[Pod]

There is no way to have an intelligent debate here on points and counterpoints. None. Because you're all so convinced. I will say this again. If the Jews, who have been proven to be overwhelmingly Middle Eastern by actual genetic science, do not have a claim on their land, which can be proven to have been expropriated by the very people who claim the same crime falsely, then most Americans on the continent of North America and South America had better start packing and go back to where they came from, be it Europe, Africa, China or wherever, and leave the occupied territories of America to the original Native Americans, because this land has only been a nation run by foreigners for a bit over 200 years, a drop in the bucket of history.

Compared to most residents of the America's, Jewish claims to the Land of Israel is undeniable. So, everyone but the Flash guy...pack up. Go home.

My town isn`t built on the ruins of a preceeding town. My grandfather didn`t throw out anybody from his house to move into it himself.

The issue in North America has never been land. There is plenty of land for everyone. So much land that the American natives never even developed the concept of ownership of land as it was not scarce.

The only issue in America is of political power. But see here you and I differ. I have nothing American natives seceeding from the US federeal government and going it alone. I support the Republic of Lakotah project. I am not making excuses for the continued mistreatment of the natives by the US government. You are.

[Pod]

Over half of the Jewish population presently living in Israel came from Arab lands, many thrown out of their homes, forced to arrive in Israel with only the clothes on their backs. Several of these Jewish communities in Arab/Muslim nations could trace their families back to the first exile. And yet, they lost everything...due to Muslim bigotry.

Jewish Genetics (http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewish-genetics/)

Excerpt:

"Although the Ashkenazi (European) Jewish community separated from their Mediterranean ancestors some 1,200 years ago and lived among Central and Eastern European gentiles, their paternal gene pool still resembles that of other Jewish and Semitic groups originating in the Middle East.

A low rate of intermarriage between Diaspora Jews and local gentiles was the key reason for this continuity. Since the Jews first settled in Europe more than 50 generations ago, the intermarriage rate was estimated to be only about 0.5% in each generation.

The Ashkenazi paternal gene pool does not appear to be similar to that of present-day Turkish speakers. This finding opposes the suggestion that Ashkenazim are descended from the Kuzars, a Turkish-Asian empire that converted to Judaism en masse in or about the 8th century CE."

What did you say about European colonialism?

In my opinion, since most Americans are of European descent, and have no "dog" in the Middle Eastern conflict, those acting more like European colonial powers are the American government, which has the chutzpah to tell Jews in their homeland of Israel where they can and can't build, and -- no big surprise -- the EU. Americans and Europeans should just butt out and let the cousins work things out. Do business?? Sure. But leave Middle Easterners to their own disputes. It will end very quickly if these peoples are respected enough to be left alone to duke it out.

Another interesting fact: Have you ever listened to Jewish chanting when praying in Hebrew and Arabic chanting during prayers?? They sound very similar. There's a reason for that. Oh, and the two (well three if one includes Aramaic) languages are closely related.

To deny all of these links, evidence and facts seems to me to approach the absurd. Don't try to sell the mass conversion fallacy. What people would choose to be driven from land to land, enduring expropriations and pogroms if there weren't a continuous generational link from Sinai and the giving of the Torah to now?

Well, this has been fun, but I must get on with my life. Cya sometime. Thanks for helping me dig further for evidence of what I already knew was the wonderful truth. I am a member of an amazing people with an incredible past and an even more incredible future. What a privilege.

Be well all. Be happy. Know G-d...it's the only way to true happiness as He created your soul and knows where you belong in world. We all have a very special purpose to fulfill. Knowing one's place in the world is the only way to understand the world.

You are shooting blanks because you don`t understand that we are not collectivists here. Genetics do not give you a claim to a piece of land. That is because genetic groups can not own land. Only induviduals can own land, after it being purchased by them or passed down onto them from a specific named ancestor.

I couldn`t care less about the genetic makeup of the Jews. It is irrelevant for the point in hand. If the Zionists felt Palestine was their homeland they could have gone over there, bought land in voluntary transactions and proclaimed their authority on the land they had purchased and they would have had my support if conflict ensued.

Instead they laid claim to land they had not bought off and proceeded to ethnicaly cleanse everyone who wasn`t to their liking from it, seperating thosands of people from their rightful induvidual property. A named induvidual can not be rightfully evicted from his home based on a genetics study.

And yes Israel is an European implant in Orient. Israel is the project of Zionism and Zionism was developed in Europe, by intelectuals from Europe.

[Sandra]

Ahh more ad hominems. Looking weak. There is really a scarcity of facts coming my way from my opponents.

You do realize that you're only linking to op ed's as sources, right?

[Sandra]

I don't remember God giving a damned thing to the "Jews" , he gave land to the "Hebrews" Elya, you're not addressing this. The Hebrews were the descendants of Jacob BTW.

[acptulsa]

If someone ever tosses you out of your home, improves the place for 50 years while you press your claim in court, and then you are obliged to pass your claim on to your children, and you never relinquish said claim, I think you should just counsel your children to let them have the place already. To reclaim a home after 50 or more years of that person living there is unreasonable. There are such things as squatters rights you know.

Wait a minute. You are saying there's justice in forcibly taking over a place, keeping the original and rightful owner away with the credible threat of death, and then claiming squatters' rights?!? That's supposed to make it all right and just?

Throw someone out a gun point then pretend to be legitimate using squatters' rights. That's funny.

[LongStrangeTrip]

What Israel is doing is Genocide. They are trying to exterminate a people.

YouTube - Palestinian boy vs tank (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spCVPedh_14)

[Dunedain]

They refuse to live in peace with Jews. What is your solution?


Liquidating Zionist assets worldwide and compensating the victims families would be a great place to begin.

[Dunedain]

It's the home of the Jews.

Yeah, but the home was stolen and it's occupants abused, tortured, killed. So it's time to turn it back over to the owners who have been objecting to the home being stolen for years.

[Objectivist]

Yeah, but the home was stolen and it's occupants abused, tortured, killed. So it's time to turn it back over to the owners who have been objecting to the home being stolen for years.

Actually the Jews were there keeping time and records well before anyone else. The Romans took over and the Jews scattered, the Arabs came along and kicked the Romans asses and then the Christians ran the Crusades and kicked the Arabs asses. Wasn't long before the the Arabs brought out the swords and sought revenge.

All you have to do is look at the calendars of the individual groups and it goes back to the Jews or Hebrews. Nothing was stolen when there is right to conquest. The Jews didn't attack the Arabs, the Jews bought cheap crappy land from them and unlike the Arabs, they developed it. What you have there is jealousy of achievement and ineptitude on the part of the Arabs for not developing anything but hatred for successful people.... the Jews.

[Objectivist]

What Israel is doing is Genocide. They are trying to exterminate a people.

YouTube - Palestinian boy vs tank (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spCVPedh_14)

That's funny, they own a postage stamp of land and are surrounded by one of the fastest breeding groups of humans on the planet.

[ElyaKatz]

I'd think trade would be a much better system.

I agree.

[ElyaKatz]

Yeah, but the home was stolen and it's occupants abused, tortured, killed. So it's time to turn it back over to the owners who have been objecting to the home being stolen for years.

The original occupants are not the Arabs/Muslims. Just look at a timeline. There were not even Muslims when King David ran the place. So, what is it, the lastest thief is the rightful occupant and the original owner has no right to reclaim their property??

[Objectivist]

The original occupants are not the Arabs/Muslims. Just look at a timeline. There were not even Muslims when King David ran the place. So, what is it, the lastest thief is the rightful occupant and the original owner has no right to reclaim their property??

The calendar of Islam is only 1430 years. the Hebrew calendar is 5769.

[ElyaKatz]

You are shooting blanks because you don`t understand that we are not collectivists here. Genetics do not give you a claim to a piece of land. That is because genetic groups can not own land. Only induviduals can own land, after it being purchased by them or passed down onto them from a specific named ancestor.

Genetics is just one piece of the puzzle, certainly not the most important part of the puzzle, because Judaism does not focus on "race" it focuses on the practice of the religion of Judaism. Egyptians left with the Israelites. If they believed in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and were willing to accept the oath all Jews take, then they were a part of Israel. The Ger Tzedek in an honored member of the Jewish people. Genetics is not the final word. It's just another interesting part of the story. Other more significant elements are history, culture, literature, religious heritage, geography, migration records, archeology, (even the Quran admits as much) -- all of the evidence converges together, points heavily in the direction of the Jewish people, who have overwhelmingly been proven to be of Middle Eastern ancestry, cousins of the people in the region -- being indigenous to the region, the original occupants of the land, with a far superior claim than any of the other subsequent conquerors, usurpers.


And yes Israel is an European implant in Orient. Israel is the project of Zionism and Zionism was developed in Europe, by intelectuals from Europe.
The idea behind Zionism is as old as the Jewish people. Abraham was called by HKB"H to leave his family and go to the Land that would be shown to him. The term "Zionism" is just an abbreviation for the Land of Israel. Our songs have sung about Zion since the Babylonian exile, long before Islam ever came on the scene, and we will be singing for, longing for and settling our Land long after Islam fades from the pages of history.

[Sandra]

Genetics is just one piece of the puzzle, certainly not the most important part of the puzzle, because Judaism does not focus on "race" it focuses on the practice of the religion of Judaism. Egyptians left with the Israelites. If they believed in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and were willing to accept the oath all Jews take, then they were a part of Israel. The Ger Tzedek in an honored member of the Jewish people. Genetics is not the final word. It's just another interesting part of the story. Other more significant elements are history, culture, literature, religious heritage, geography, migration records, archeology, (even the Quran admits as much) -- all of the evidence converges together, points heavily in the direction of the Jewish people, who have overwhelmingly been proven to be of Middle Eastern ancestry, cousins of the people in the region -- being indigenous to the region, the original occupants of the land, with a far superior claim than any of the other subsequent conquerors, usurpers.



The idea behind Zionism is as old as the Jewish people. Abraham was called by HKB"H to leave his family and go to the Land that would be shown to him. The term "Zionism" is just an abbreviation for the Land of Israel. Our songs have sung about Zion since the Babylonian exile, long before Islam ever came on the scene, and we will be singing for, longing for and settling our Land long after Islam fades from the pages of history.

You speak like an neo evangelical. No Jew would say what you say. Your facts on Judaism are so shamefully bogus. Are you from Ft Worth by any chance?

[revolutionisnow]

So what other people have a right to reclaim supposed stolen land? Is there a website where people can check and see if they are entitled to anything, you know like they have for tax refunds and such? What about African Americans? What is your opinion on reparations? Should they be entitled to the entire continent that they were removed from?

[Sandra]

ElyaKatz is posting the same big bunch of crap that John Hagee preaches at his church

[ElyaKatz]

You speak like an neo evangelical. No Jew would say what you say. Your facts on Judaism are so shamefully bogus. Are you from Ft Worth by any chance?

Try and be specific. What "facts on Judaism" are you referring to exactly??

[Dr.3D]

You speak like an neo evangelical. No Jew would say what you say. Your facts on Judaism are so shamefully bogus. Are you from Ft Worth by any chance?
From my studies on Judaism, he seems to be spot on. What facts do you specifically find inaccurate?

[Sandra]

Over half of the Jewish population presently living in Israel came from Arab lands, many thrown out of their homes, forced to arrive in Israel with only the clothes on their backs. Several of these Jewish communities in Arab/Muslim nations could trace their families back to the first exile. And yet, they lost everything...due to Muslim bigotry.

Jewish Genetics (http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewish-genetics/)

Excerpt:

"Although the Ashkenazi (European) Jewish community separated from their Mediterranean ancestors some 1,200 years ago and lived among Central and Eastern European gentiles, their paternal gene pool still resembles that of other Jewish and Semitic groups originating in the Middle East.

A low rate of intermarriage between Diaspora Jews and local gentiles was the key reason for this continuity. Since the Jews first settled in Europe more than 50 generations ago, the intermarriage rate was estimated to be only about 0.5% in each generation.

The Ashkenazi paternal gene pool does not appear to be similar to that of present-day Turkish speakers. This finding opposes the suggestion that Ashkenazim are descended from the Kuzars, a Turkish-Asian empire that converted to Judaism en masse in or about the 8th century CE."

What did you say about European colonialism?

In my opinion, since most Americans are of European descent, and have no "dog" in the Middle Eastern conflict, those acting more like European colonial powers are the American government, which has the chutzpah to tell Jews in their homeland of Israel where they can and can't build, and -- no big surprise -- the EU. Americans and Europeans should just butt out and let the cousins work things out. Do business?? Sure. But leave Middle Easterners to their own disputes. It will end very quickly if these peoples are respected enough to be left alone to duke it out.

Another interesting fact: Have you ever listened to Jewish chanting when praying in Hebrew and Arabic chanting during prayers?? They sound very similar. There's a reason for that. Oh, and the two (well three if one includes Aramaic) languages are closely related.

To deny all of these links, evidence and facts seems to me to approach the absurd. Don't try to sell the mass conversion fallacy. What people would choose to be driven from land to land, enduring expropriations and pogroms if there weren't a continuous generational link from Sinai and the giving of the Torah to now?

Well, this has been fun, but I must get on with my life. Cya sometime. Thanks for helping me dig further for evidence of what I already knew was the wonderful truth. I am a member of an amazing people with an incredible past and an even more incredible future. What a privilege.

Be well all. Be happy. Know G-d...it's the only way to true happiness as He created your soul and knows where you belong in world. We all have a very special purpose to fulfill. Knowing one's place in the world is the only way to understand the world.

You posted this piece of crap op ed from this site:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewish-genetics/

[Bman]

original owner

Is dead, and has been for thousands of years, they no longer have a say.

[Dr.3D]

You posted this piece of crap op ed from this site:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewish-genetics/ (http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewish-genetics/)

And if you click on Jewish Genetics (http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewish-genetics/) in that "piece of crap", it takes you right to that site. I don't understand what find objectionable about it.

[Dunedain]

The original occupants are not the Arabs/Muslims. Just look at a timeline. There were not even Muslims when King David ran the place. So, what is it, the lastest thief is the rightful occupant and the original owner has no right to reclaim their property??

White European Jews never had an ancestor that ever set a toe in the holy land. They are eastern Europeans that converted to Jew-day-ism the same as many Korean's convereted to Christianity. Are Korean's the decendents of the original Jewish Christians? Of course not. The Christian Palestinians have a claim to Palestine...not you or some Jewish Supremacists that moved in after the treaty of Versille at the end of WWI.

[ElyaKatz]

Is dead, and has been for thousands of years, they no longer have a say.

Ownership of property is inherited by the children unless otherwise specifically stated. If this is the case individually, it is certainly the case nationally, even moreso.

[ElyaKatz]

White European Jews never had an ancestor that ever set a toe in the holy land. They are eastern Europeans that converted to Jew-day-ism the same as many Korean's convereted to Christianity. Are Korean's the decendents of the original Jewish Christians? Of course not. The Christian Palestinians have a claim to Palestine...not you or some Jewish Supremacists that moved in after the treaty of Versille at the end of WWI.
You've clearly never been to Israel to see how many Israelis look very much like their Arab cousins. How do you think Arabs can disguise themselves as Orthodox Jews in order to murder them more easily?

[Bman]

Ownership of property is inherited by the children unless otherwise specifically stated. If this is the case individually, it is certainly the case nationally, even moreso.

I take it you have a written will, with eye witnesses? I'm not saying you cannot call it yours, sure by all means, and yeah sure kill everyone who gets in the way, just do not expect sympathy.

BTW, if I DNA test for the area are you going to repect my property over there?

[revolutionisnow]

You've clearly never been to Israel to see how many Israelis look very much like their Arab cousins. How do you think Arabs can disguise themselves as Orthodox Jews in order to murder them more easily?

So if they supposedly look so much alike as you say, why isn't the land theirs also? Why not let Arabs from all over the Middle East immigrate there, since it was stolen from their ancestors also?

[ElyaKatz]

From my studies on Judaism, he seems to be spot on. What facts do you specifically find inaccurate?

My guess is, Sandra's experience with the Jewish community is limited to liberal, humanist Jews, not with the observant community. And the observant community is very similar in values with more conservative Christians. Witness the cooperation of R' Daniel Lapin (http://www.rabbidaniellapin.com/index.php) and Dr. James Dobson, with his organization "Toward Tradition". Most traditional Jews are conservative politically, listen to conservative talk radio, endorsed John McCain. I didn't think either candidate would be good for Israel, thought Ron Paul was the best choice.

From what I can gather, Sandra associates Judaism with the ACLU, AIPAC, the ADL. Understandable since traditional Jews are a decided minority in America. There are values that Jews can and do endorse, but that doesn't make them Jewish values.

[ElyaKatz]

So if they supposedly look so much alike as you say, why isn't the land theirs also? Why not let Arabs from all over the Middle East immigrate there, since it was stolen from their ancestors also?
Because property ownership doesn't go according to looks, it follows proof of ownership. Just because my cousin on my mother's side looks like me doesn't prove she owns my house. How is this so difficult to understand??

I made my point on how similar Israeli Jews and the Arab population look in order to demonstrate that Jews are not European plants in the Middle East, in spite of the fact that many of us have been living in Europe for a number of years. There are Arabs in Sweden. If they want to return to Saudi Arabia or wherever they were born, they can do so. We have always wanted to return to Eretz Israel, and demonstrated that will many, many times. There was a massive movement to return to Israel under Shabtai Tsvi, in the 1500's. But then, as now, the nations have done much to prevent it.

The majority of Jews from around the world have Middle Eastern ancestry, if not completely, partially. As many Muslims/Arabs have mixed ancestry, perhaps more, since the bar set for becoming Muslim is much lower than the one for becoming Jewish.

The Jewish people are exactly what we claim to be. The original holders and residents of the Land of Israel (G-d is the owner), of largely Middle Eastern descent. We've been in exile from that Land, many but not all of Jews were driven off that land by Arab/Muslim militant settlers/marauders, starting in the mid 600's. And now we are returning home.

If that ticks you off, well, we have returned, we are returning and we will return anyway.

[revolutionisnow]

I think its telling that you decide who to vote for on "if they are good for Israel or the Jewish people". That is exactly the problem.

[Dr.3D]

I think its telling that you decide who to vote for on "if they are good for Israel or the Jewish people". That is exactly the problem.
And by this statement, are you inferring Ron Paul is or isn't good for Israel?

[Flash]

Jewish Genetics

Excerpt:

"Although the Ashkenazi (European) Jewish community separated from their Mediterranean ancestors some 1,200 years ago and lived among Central and Eastern European gentiles, their paternal gene pool still resembles that of other Jewish and Semitic groups originating in the Middle East.

A low rate of intermarriage between Diaspora Jews and local gentiles was the key reason for this continuity. Since the Jews first settled in Europe more than 50 generations ago, the intermarriage rate was estimated to be only about 0.5% in each generation.

The Ashkenazi paternal gene pool does not appear to be similar to that of present-day Turkish speakers. This finding opposes the suggestion that Ashkenazim are descended from the Kuzars, a Turkish-Asian empire that converted to Judaism en masse in or about the 8th century CE."


This is what I'm talking about-- all these sites that are claiming Ashkenazis are descendents of the Isrealites are FALSE. There is no such thing as a Semitic gene, Semite is a term only used to people who speak a Semitic language.

As for the European thing-- Ashkenazis are most definently closely related to Europeans & Khazars. Like I said in the past they are Alpine, Nordic, & Meds. They aren't Middle Eastern.

[revolutionisnow]

And by this statement, are you inferring Ron Paul is or isn't good for Israel?

http://i31.tinypic.com/11l1nwk.jpg

[Dr.3D]

http://i31.tinypic.com/11l1nwk.jpg
I fail to see your logic. Either you see Ron Paul as being good for Israel or you see him as being bad for Israel.

Myself, I see him as being good for Israel.

[ElyaKatz]

I take it you have a written will, with eye witnesses? I'm not saying you cannot call it yours, sure by all means, and yeah sure kill everyone who gets in the way, just do not expect sympathy.

BTW, if I DNA test for the area are you going to repect my property over there?

DNA is something that demonstrates a few things. It might demonstrate paternity for instance, and that definitely could affect inheritance. DNA is not the sum total or even the most important part of the argument in favor of Jewish control of the Land of Israel, since some are Jews by choice (conversion). The comparison would be to an adopted child, who can legally inherit his father's property.

There are written documents and eyewitness reports of the fact that the Jewish people lived in Israel under a commonwealth since time immemorial in the histories of many peoples, the Hebrew Bible, the Christian Bible, Josephus, the Quran, archeology...it's all over the place, beyond question. There is not a complete parallel between individual ownership and community ownership. And just as Native Americans often had a communal view of property, so do Jews. Not every nation has to follow the American model regarding property.

The Land of Israel is communal property leased to the Jewish people by G-d in perpetuity, for the purpose of performing His commandments on that Land. We earn our right to live in Eretz Israel not from any other nation, not with your permission or that of the UN, but from the Torah, which was recieved by the Jewish people on Mount Sinai, in the presence of an estimated 2 million witnesses. The testimony of three witnesses establishes evidence in a court of law. That evidence stands for the record for future generations.

Were you there when the Declaration of Independence and the US constitution were written?? No? Then how do you know these events happened? Maybe the constitution is a forgery? Why do you accept it as fact and how do you claim your rights as an American under that constitution, since the original witnesses to the signing of these documents are long dead?? Is the testimony of the founding fathers of America going to carry less weight, if by some miracle, America lasts for 2,000 or 3,000 years???

[revolutionisnow]

Honestly I couldn't care less if he is good or bad for Israel. I don't care if he is good or bad for South Africa or Germany either. I make my voting decisions on what are best for THIS country. What an absurd idea huh?

[Dr.3D]

Honestly I couldn't care less if he is good or bad for Israel. I don't care if he is good or bad for South Africa or Germany either. I make my voting decisions on what are best for THIS country. What an absurd idea huh?
Not so absurd.... that is exactly how I decide who to vote for as well.

[ElyaKatz]

I think its telling that you decide who to vote for on "if they are good for Israel or the Jewish people". That is exactly the problem.

It's a free country. If you have a problem with my political priorities, then work to outlaw them. I consider many priorities. As I have stated, I believe that this country is doomed if it decides to turn against the Jewish people. I didn't make the rules, but history certainly does clarify what they are.

[revolutionisnow]

The Land of Israel is communal property leased to the Jewish people by G-d in perpetuity, for the purpose of performing His commandments on that Land. We earn our right to live in Eretz Israel not from any other nation, not with your permission or that of the UN, but from the Torah, which was recieved by the Jewish people on Mount Sinai, in the presence of an estimated 2 million witnesses. The testimony of three witnesses establishes evidence in a court of law.[/FONT]

The land was given to the various bloodlines of people. It wasn't given to the people based on their religion! Judahites are not the same thing as Jews. And kinda sorta doesn't count. Also, where do you think the other tribes are today? Why are they not entitled to their land also? I don't even know why I'm having this argument over vile racist fairy tales. I'm glad more people are waking up every day to what nonsense the Jewish claim to Palestine is.

[ElyaKatz]

Honestly I couldn't care less if he is good or bad for Israel. I don't care if he is good or bad for South Africa or Germany either. I make my voting decisions on what are best for THIS country. What an absurd idea huh?

All nations that have sought to damage the children of Israel (pick your term, we've gathered a lot of nicknames over the years) has itself lost it's position in history. Pick the nation that set it sights on ruining the Jewish people, and you will see that ruination came to that nation.

I don't want to see the ruination of America. I already know Israel will be fine. Might go through some tough times, but Israel will come out fine in the end. Our choice is whether we cooperate with the Almigihty in His agenda or not. That determines our future, as individuals and as a nation. It does not determine Israel's.

Following that logic, I consider it my patriotic duty to do what I can to encourage America and Israel to remain friends. John McCain was as convinced that the Jews of Judea and Samaria had to give up their homes as is Obama. I don't think US foreign aid to any nation is appropriate or constitutional and certainly does not help anyone.

[ElyaKatz]

This is what I'm talking about-- all these sites that are claiming Ashkenazis are descendents of the Isrealites are FALSE. There is no such thing as a Semitic gene, Semite is a term only used to people who speak a Semitic language.

As for the European thing-- Ashkenazis are most definently closely related to Europeans & Khazars. Like I said in the past they are Alpine, Nordic, & Meds. They aren't Middle Eastern.
Prove your claim.

My argument is not centered on genetics, so it doesn't stand or fall on it.

[ElyaKatz]

The land was given to the various bloodlines of people. It wasn't given to the people based on their religion! Judahites are not the same thing as Jews. And kinda sorta doesn't count. Also, where do you think the other tribes are today? Why are they not entitled to their land also? I don't even know why I'm having this argument over vile racist fairy tales. I'm glad more people are waking up every day to what nonsense the Jewish claim to Palestine is.
Sigh. Okay, I will say this once again. In the case of a stolen national home, there are two conditions requisite for the plaintiff/claimant to be able to reclaim said national home.

1) They must not relinquish their claim to said national home.

2) The people who's national home was stolen must still exist.

If these two conditions exist, there is no statute of limitations on the claim.

So, if at some point, the Ten Lost Tribes reappear on the pages of history and can prove who they are, then by all means, they will be able to claim their stolen national home.

This is one reason the Canaanites can't press any claim to the Land of Israel. They gave up their claim, and lost their national identity through assimilation.

[Bman]

The Land of Israel is communal property leased to the Jewish people by G-d [/FONT]

I told you he changed his mind and gave it all to me. Anyone packing their bags yet?

[revolutionisnow]

All nations that have sought to damage the children of Israel (pick your term, we've gathered a lot of nicknames over the years) has itself lost it's position in history. Pick the nation that set it sights on ruining the Jewish people, and you will see that ruination came to that nation.

I don't want to see the ruination of America. I already know Israel will be fine. Might go through some tough times, but Israel will come out fine in the end. Our choice is whether we cooperate with the Almigihty in His agenda or not. That determines our future, as individuals and as a nation. It does not determine Israel's.

Following that logic, I consider it my patriotic duty to do what I can to encourage America and Israel to remain friends. John McCain was as convinced that the Jews of Judea and Samaria had to give up their homes as is Obama. I don't think US foreign aid to any nation is appropriate or constitutional and certainly does not help anyone.


Yeah, I'm fairly certain its the other way around. Countries allow them in and support them, but eventually enough is enough. They have been expelled over 100 times. Fairly certain it wasn't because they were being beneficial. The USA was doing pretty well before they started supporting Israel also.

[ElyaKatz]

BS"D

In addition to the conditions I've set forth in order for a legitimate legal claim to a stolen national homeland, the Jewish Virtual Library has an enlightening article on the topic. I won't be shocked if some participants in this thread dismiss the article simply due to my source.


The Jewish Claim To The Land Of Israel


"A common misperception is that the Jews were forced into the diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 A.D. and then, 1,800 years later, suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years. A national language and a distinct civilization have been maintained.

The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham; 2) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 3) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and 4) the territory was captured in defensive wars.

The term "Palestine" is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what is now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century A.D., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from this Latin name.

The Twelve Tribes of Israel formed the first constitutional monarchy in Palestine about 1000 B.C. The second king, David, first made Jerusalem the nation's capital. Although eventually Palestine was split into two separate kingdoms, Jewish independence there lasted for 212 years. This is almost as long as Americans have enjoyed independence in what has become known as the United States.

Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in Palestine continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the 11th century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea.

Many Jews were massacred by the Crusaders during the 12th century, but the community rebounded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and Jewish pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent rabbis established communities in Safed, Jerusalem and elsewhere during the next 300 years. By the early 19th century-years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement-more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel.

When Jews began to immigrate to Palestine in large numbers in 1882, fewer than 250,000 Arabs lived there, and the majority of them had arrived in recent decades. Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of most the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century. No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine. When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: "There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not." In fact, Palestine is never explicitly mentioned in the Koran, rather it is called "the holy land" (al-Arad al-Muqaddash).

Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted:

We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.

In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: "There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."

The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947 that said "Palestine was part of the Province of Syria" and that, "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity." A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."

Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel's capture of the West Bank.

Israel's international "birth certificate" was validated by the promise of the Bible; uninterrupted Jewish settlement from the time of Joshua onward; the Balfour Declaration of 1917; the League of Nations Mandate, which incorporated the Balfour Declaration; the United Nations partition resolution of 1947; Israel's admission to the UN in 1949; the recognition of Israel by most other states; and, most of all, the society created by Israel's people in decades of thriving, dynamic national existence."

The other piece of the puzzle as to whether a given people actually had a national home, subsequently stolen, must be answered by the question: Was there a separate and distinct people, with a separate culture, jurisprudence and language, attached to a specific geographic location?? This is easily demonstrated in the case of the Jewish people. Furthermore, unlike any other dispossessed people in history, we exist. We have demonstrated continued, persistent aspirations to re-establish ourselves in our national homeland throughout history. Judaism is different than all other religions, in that a concrete attachment of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel is a central tenet.

[dannno]

So, if at some point, the Ten Lost Tribes reappear on the pages of history and can prove who they are, then by all means, they will be able to claim their stolen national home.


You're going to have a really hard time justifying that position on reparations around here... especially since half the people here think that the book you are using as evidence is made up..
But either way, you still want to steal from group A to give to group B based on something their ancestors did. I have to say, sounds pretty racist.

[ElyaKatz]

You're going to have a really hard time justifying that position on reparations around here... especially since half the people here think that the book you are using as evidence is made up..
But either way, you still want to steal from group A to give to group B based on something their ancestors did. I have to say, sounds pretty racist.

I never used the word reparations. If one is discussing a legal issue, and this is indeed a legal issue on a national scale, one must be much more precise with language. Words count in law.

Judaism is not a race. Any Muslim can convert and become a Jew. Some have, and are very loyal Jews.

Fortunately, the Jewish people aren't required to prove whether or not the Scriptures are true to you or anyone else. As far as evidence, did you read the post?? I did not cite only the Hebrew Scriptures as evidence. History alone is evidence. Scratch the dirt in Israel, and you will find coins and pottery with Aramaic/Hebrew inscriptions, mosaic floors that reveal destroyed synagogues, ancient Jewish cemeteries, Jewish ossuaries...all over the place. It's not possible to destroy the evidence of widespread Jewish civilization in Eretz Israel, from antiquity to now. One would have to dig up every part of the Land from end to end, going down meters and meters to destroy the evidence, and even then, it would not be possible.

Whether you believe in any given set of Scriptures is immaterial to the conflict, because both parties do believe in them.

[TortoiseDream]

my favorite palestinian:

YouTube - charlemagne palestine live (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7qjbe-buII)

strum forever

[tonesforjonesbones]

Ancient lost capital of the Jewish Khazar kingdom found

By The Associated Press

Tags: Judaism, Russia, Khazars

Russian archaeologists said Wednesday they had found the long-lost capital of the Khazar kingdom in southern Russia, a breakthrough for research on the ancient Jewish state.

"This is a hugely important discovery," expedition organiser Dmitry Vasilyev told AFP by telephone from Astrakhan State University after returning from excavations near the village of Samosdelka, just north of the Caspian Sea.
Advertisement

"We can now shed light on one of the most intriguing mysteries of that period -- how the Khazars actually lived. We know very little about the Khazars -- about their traditions, their funerary rites, their culture," he said.

The city was the capital of the Khazars, a semi-nomadic Turkic peoples who adopted Judaism as a state religion, from between the 8th and the 10th centuries, when it was captured and sacked by the rulers of ancient Russia.

At its height, the Khazar state and its tributaries controlled much of what is now southern Russia, western Kazakhstan, eastern Ukraine, Azerbaijan and large parts of Russia's North Caucasus region.

The capital is referred to as Itil in Arab chronicles but Vasilyev said the word may actually have been used to refer to the Volga River on which the city was founded or to the surrounding river delta region.

Itil was said to be a multi-ethnic place with houses of worship and judges for Christians, Jews, Muslims and pagans. Its remains have until now never been identified and were said to have been washed away by the Caspian Sea.

Archaeologists have been excavating in the area if Samosdelka for the past nine years but have only now collected enough material evidence to back their thesis, including the remains of an ancient brick fortress, he added.

"Within the fortress, we have found huts similar to yurts, which are characteristics of Khazar cities.... The fortress had a triangular shape and was made with bricks. It's another argument that this was no ordinary city."

Around 10 university archaeologists and some 50 students took part in excavations in the region this summer, which are partly financed by the Jewish University in Moscow and the Russian Jewish Congress


Get Haaretz news headlines

[ElyaKatz]

my favorite palestinian:

strum forever
Well, that's closer to the thread topic at least, but that was the most boring video I've watched in a long time. I think this was a case of "you had to be there".

[TortoiseDream]

Well, that's closer to the thread topic at least, but that was the most boring video I've watched in a long time. I think this was a case of "you had to be there".

Well I don't like it for the image, I like it for the music. It's lo-fi on youtube, but the point of his music is to bring out resonance frequencies in his instrument. It's a little hard to explain, but an adequate simplification would that his music makes a piano sound like a sitar.

[ElyaKatz]

I told you he changed his mind and gave it all to me. Anyone packing their bags yet?

Do you equal the testimony of 2 million eyewitnesses? Does one the testimony of one man count as definitive evidence in a court of law in cases of this import, or in any case at all?

[Bman]

Do you equal the testimony of 2 million eyewitnesses? Does one the testimony of one man count as definitive evidence in a court of law in cases of this import, or in any case at all?


DO you think that means anything to god? Don't hate on the messenger.

[ElyaKatz]

DO you think that means anything to god? Don't hate on the messenger.
Yes I do, because the eyewitness testimony of those 2 million pertained to what He expects of the Jewish people. As far as hating on the messenger, please provide quotes which indicate hatred on my part. I differ in opinion, and I am even-toned in my discourse. I hate no one.

No one here has countered any of my arguments in the base post of this thread with any evidence, no solid sources. There are misquotes, misattributed photos, misleadingly labeled videos, and hyperbole.

I certainly see no evidence either, of love for the Arabs in Eretz Israel. If there was, then there would be real concern over how they are treated by UNRWAl Fatah, Hamas and Hezbollah. I think only the Israelis understand how victimized these people are by these horrible entities. The message I see here is not pro-Arab...it is just anti-Israel.

There is enough room in the Land of Israel for both people. BUT, if the Arab leadership refuses to live in peace with the Jewish people, then there will be war, and all the risks of war, for both sides.

[revolutionisnow]

YouTube - He reveals the Truth about Zionists (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDODrMkO7jI&)

[Bman]

Yes I do, because the eyewitness testimony of those 2 million pertained to what He expects of the Jewish people. As far as hating on the messenger, please provide quotes which indicate hatred on my part. I differ in opinion, and I am even-toned in my discourse. I hate no one.

No one here has countered any of my arguments in the base post of this thread with any evidence. I certainly see no evidence either, of love for the Arabs in Eretz Israel. If there was, then there would be real concern over how they are treated by UNRWAl Fatah, Hamas and Hezbollah. I think only the Israelis understand how victimized these people are by these horrible entities. The message I see here is not pro-Arab...it is just anti-Israel.

There is enough room in the Land of Israel for both people. BUT, if the Arab leadership refuses to live in peace with the Jewish people, then there will be war.


Well based on some of the reponses I can see that, however the main story most here I would say accept is that we don't want America involved in the situation by any margin or percent. You could really quickly make this area anti- Arab also if you were to demonstrate a money trail that is being used for conflict.

We are peaceful people and do not want to be invoved with anyone elses wars. Sure it comes off strong around here on Israel but that's because of certain influence. Like Nancy Pelosi pulling a bill becasue she said AIPAC didn't think the bill was a good idea. That sort of thing doesn't sit well around here. In the end most of us want to treat everyone the same. That starts with ending foreign aid to everyone.

[ElyaKatz]

Well based on some of the reponses I can see that, however the main story most here I would say accept is that we don't want America involved in the situation by any margin or percent. You could really quickly make this area anti- Arab also if you were to demonstrate a money trail that is being used for conflict.

We are peaceful people and do not want to be invoved with anyone elses wars. Sure it comes off strong around here on Israel but that's because of certain influence. Like Nancy Pelosi pulling a bill becasue she said AIPAC didn't think the bill was a good idea. That sort of thing doesn't sit well around here. In the end most of us want to treat everyone the same. That starts with ending foreign aid to everyone.
I think your description of your own priorities is plausible for you, and for most of the membership here. I can't stand Pelosi or Rahm Emanuel's politics, and I doubt AIPAC does anything good for Israel or America.

However, there is a very active minority here who come to here to use it as a sounding board for the "Palestinian Propaganda" machine. This site and others like it who's raison d'etre is to support Ron Paul are in danger of being hijacked by such groups, and if they are, then those groups will use the good name of Ron Paul to push forward a completely different agenda than anything Dr. Paul ever had in mind.

That bothers me. And I'm out to expose it. I don't need this site to push my pro-Israel views. I am very, very happy at my blog.

[Bman]

However, there is a very active minority here who come to here to use it as a sounding board for the "Palestinian Propaganda" machine.

A very small minority. There are about 3 people I can think off the top of my head that may fit such a catergory. There's probably about 5-10 others who are just straight out anti-semitic.

I just think the way you go about it is all wrong. Rather than posting random acts of violence you need to paint a conspiracy. That should work.

[Objectivist]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CanaanMap.jpg

[Dunedain]

...and coverts to Talmudism (Jew-Day-Ism) have no claim to Palestine.



Ancient lost capital of the Jewish Khazar kingdom found

By The Associated Press

Tags: Judaism, Russia, Khazars

Russian archaeologists said Wednesday they had found the long-lost capital of the Khazar kingdom in southern Russia, a breakthrough for research on the ancient Jewish state.

"This is a hugely important discovery," expedition organiser Dmitry Vasilyev told AFP by telephone from Astrakhan State University after returning from excavations near the village of Samosdelka, just north of the Caspian Sea.
Advertisement

"We can now shed light on one of the most intriguing mysteries of that period -- how the Khazars actually lived. We know very little about the Khazars -- about their traditions, their funerary rites, their culture," he said.

The city was the capital of the Khazars, a semi-nomadic Turkic peoples who adopted Judaism as a state religion, from between the 8th and the 10th centuries, when it was captured and sacked by the rulers of ancient Russia.

At its height, the Khazar state and its tributaries controlled much of what is now southern Russia, western Kazakhstan, eastern Ukraine, Azerbaijan and large parts of Russia's North Caucasus region.

The capital is referred to as Itil in Arab chronicles but Vasilyev said the word may actually have been used to refer to the Volga River on which the city was founded or to the surrounding river delta region.

Itil was said to be a multi-ethnic place with houses of worship and judges for Christians, Jews, Muslims and pagans. Its remains have until now never been identified and were said to have been washed away by the Caspian Sea.

Archaeologists have been excavating in the area if Samosdelka for the past nine years but have only now collected enough material evidence to back their thesis, including the remains of an ancient brick fortress, he added.

"Within the fortress, we have found huts similar to yurts, which are characteristics of Khazar cities.... The fortress had a triangular shape and was made with bricks. It's another argument that this was no ordinary city."

Around 10 university archaeologists and some 50 students took part in excavations in the region this summer, which are partly financed by the Jewish University in Moscow and the Russian Jewish Congress


Get Haaretz news headlines

[ElyaKatz]

A very small minority. There are about 3 people I can think off the top of my head that may fit such a catergory. There's probably about 5-10 others who are just straight out anti-semitic.

I just think the way you go about it is all wrong. Rather than posting random acts of violence you need to paint a conspiracy. That should work.

I kept records for several days, and came up with 35 names. I still have the list.

[ElyaKatz]

...and coverts to Talmudism (Jew-Day-Ism) have no claim to Palestine.

Says you. You have no say in who is defined as the progeny of the original landholders when the Jewish people held sovereignty.

The Oral Law, (the Talmud before it was written down) was in full operation in Judea/Samaria/Galilee before the Romans renamed it Palestine. The only group that would not adhere to it were the priests, who had allowed themselves to be corrupted by that time by the Romans. They were elitist, and very unpopular. The populist party were the Pharisees, who adhered to the Written and Oral Torah. The Pharisees were the patriots, being murdered on a daily basis by the Romans for their insistence on obedience to the dictates of the Torah, both written and oral, that Judea/Samaria and the Galilee were rightfully independent of Rome.

In fact, the Jews were the only people in the Roman empire who persistently rebelled against Roman hegemony. Today, we find ourselves fighting a one world hegemony in the form of the Vatican/UN...with the Jewish people once more in the forefront of that battle, suffering anew with a corrupt, bought-out Jewish government which works against the interests of their own people.

Americans are suffering from exactly the same problem.

[Cowlesy]

reopened

[Danke]

I kept records for several days, and came up with 35 names. I still have the list.

Did you assign the five-digit IBM Hollerith number to them too?

[ElyaKatz]

Did you assign the five-digit IBM Hollerith number to them too?
Most of your responses when debating me are ad hominems. Why? I have refuted points here with specific facts. One notable example, the photos on post #34 by LATruth implied that IDF soldiers oppress little kids. My response post described the situation. No replies from my ideological opponents. Hm.

ElyaKatz Post #70

These two photos are of a 14 year old boy who had been paid NIS 100 by fellow Arab men (about $20-30 depending on the exchange rate at the time) to strap a suicide bomb belt to his waist. "A Tanzim cell from the Balata refugee camp in Nablus claimed responsibility for sending the boy." The story can be found here, and probably at other sites as well:

14-year-old suicide bomber intercepted (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2004/3/14-year-old%20suicide%20bomber%20intercepted%2024-Mar-2004)

The Israeli soldiers were actually very gentle with him. I had Israeli satellite TV at the time and watched the entire episode from start to finish. I looked for Youtube videos of this episode, but they've been pulled. Anyway, it was very sad, and really upset the Israeli soldiers. Hamas and the Taliban have been reported to kidnap children for use as suicide bombers. You can see the sapper's robot sent to the boy with scissors so he could cut the bomb belt off. It is next to the boy on the lower right part of the top photo.

No one has taken me on re whether or not a people before 1967 were actually the "palestinian people" and if so, based on what criteria. It's just the usual gang, using the hard left's strategy of negativity.

[Danke]

Most of your responses are ad hominems. Why?

I'll bet I'm on your "list"

Since you continuely edit your post, here is my edit: "Most of your responses are ad hominems" What the fuck are you talking about?

[ElyaKatz]

I'll bet I'm on your "list"

I'm not going to reveal the identities of the list publicly. I would only do that, if I had taken the time to do an extensive, exhaustive survey. Then I might post it at my blog, assuming I wouldn't be violating at Terms of Use, but I don't see where that is beneficial to anyone.

It was mostly for my own information. It was not an exhaustive list, only put together over a period of several days. I did not do a complete survey of each member and how they posted concerning Israel vs the Arab world. If I had, some members might have been added and others removed. Like I said, it was only for my own information, as several people claimed something to the effect that there were only a handful of members here who were actively and stridently pro-Palistinian. It's more than a few, and some might be different handles with the same IP address. Only the moderators would know that. Given the huge membership here, the percentage of members who's agenda in being here is at least partially to be a bullhorn for the Palis is probably very small. They are very active.

Like I said, my agenda for now, is to balance the scales. I'm guessing this forum has a "silent majority" who are more reasonable, but don't feel like taking these members on, as it's pretty futile, like beating one's head against a brick wall.

I'm not attempting to change these particular members minds. My only intention is to write about the other side of the story.

[Danke]

I'm not going to reveal the identities of the list publicly. It was mostly for my own information.

"Mostly" Got it. ;)

[ElyaKatz]

Did you assign the five-digit IBM Hollerith number to them too?

I am talking about this comment. It has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, or any real issues at hand on this thread. It is only meant to cast aspersions on me as a person. That is called an "ad hominem" attack. Look it up.

ad hominem: "appealing to personal considerations (rather than to fact or reason); "ad hominem arguments"

Trying to win points by ridiculing the fact that I am in the midst of editing is also a way to avoid the issues. You have no idea what I am dealing with on my end of the computer...how many kids might be jumping off my shoulder while I'm trying to put this together....or maybe I have eyesight problems....what's the point in bringing that up?

To indulge in such argumentation only works with people who don't know how to debate an issue based on the facts of a case, or who don't want to, for whatever reason. With people who do know how to debate based on facts and reason, those who indulge in ad hominems lose credibility.

[ElyaKatz]

"Mostly" Got it. ;)
I make a habit of not hemming myself with commitments I might not want to keep in the future. I also said I don't see anything beneficial in publishing a list, even on my own blog, assuming I would not be violating any Terms of Use at this site.

Danke, if you didn't want people to know what you believe, then why are you posting it on the internet?? Surely, you must be aware of the fact that people can quantify the content of your posts if they wanted to.

Why so worried about my little itty bitty list?? I was doing it via challenging the claim that only a handful of people here are on the pro-Pali bandwagon. I'm not from the Mossad...yet.

[Danke]

I am talking about this comment. It has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, or any real issues at hand on this thread. It is only meant to cast aspersions on me as a person. That is called an "ad hominem" attack. Look it up.

ad hominem: "appealing to personal considerations (rather than to fact or reason); "ad hominem arguments"

Trying to win points by ridiculing the fact that I am in the midst of editing is also a way to avoid the issues. You have no idea what I am dealing with on my end of the computer...how many kids might be jumping off my shoulder while I'm trying to put this together....or maybe I have eyesight problems....what's the point in bringing that up?

To indulge in such argumentation only works with people who don't know how to debate an issue based on the facts of a case, or who don't want to, for whatever reason. With people who do know how to debate based on facts and reason, those who indulge in ad hominems lose credibility.

You said Most of my responses. And you gave one example.

Idiot. There, that gives you two.

[ElyaKatz]

You said Most of my responses. And you gave one example.

Idiot. There, that gives you two.

I corrected that post. It seems to me most of your responses re the issue of Israel vs the Arab world are loaded with innuendos and personal attacks, light on fact from reliable sources. I haven't done a survey, but it would be interesting wouldn't it. That's just the impression I get when you enter a debate with me on this subject.

Re calling me an idiot...continuing on the same path is entirely your decision, but it doesn't serve you well.

[Flash]

...and coverts to Talmudism (Jew-Day-Ism) have no claim to Palestine.

Not only Khazars but it's possible that the ancestors of Ashkenazis are mixed with the Edomite people, which would explain the Middle Eastern bloodline. And more of an interesting mystery, it means the Israelite tribes are still out there waiting to be found.

[ElyaKatz]

85]Not only Khazars but it's possible that the ancestors of Ashkenazis are mixed with the Edomite people, which would explain the Middle Eastern bloodline. And more of an interesting mystery, it means the Israelite tribes are still out there waiting to be found.
It is soooo entertaining to watch as opponents to the Jewish people try to argue against their right to Eretz Israel first by calling them "racists" then by saying they're not really the rightful inheritors of the land because they're not the correct "race".

The entire idea behind Torah Judaism has never, ever been race. Judaism is a faith based nation/religion which is passed down (and can hence be lost) generationally. Additionally, one can join the nation/religion of Judaism by swearing an oath of allegiance to the G-d of Israel and the Jewish nation --- otherwise known as a conversion. Conversion papers can be likened to citizenship papers. If the conversion is sincere, then it is not revocable, and that citizenship is passed down...matrilinially. One who is born of a Jewish mother does not cease being Jewish by converting to another religion...though this halachah disagrees with the Israelis government's Law of Return. The Israeli government's opinion of halachah does not change halachah one iota.

There are advantages and disadvantages to becoming a permanent member of the Jewish people. For instance, if a convert at some point in the future decides he does not care to do the mitzvot any longer, he will be held accountable for his failure in this respect. It's nothing to mess with either. One is putting his soul in the hands of the awesome G-d of Heaven. If he had remained a gentile, then those mitzvot applying only to Jews, which he did not perform would not be held against him. One of those mitzvot is living in the Land of Israel.

One's tribal membership, and the right to serve as a priest is passed down patrilineally. The right to serve as priest (not tribe) can be lost through lack of observance.

Gentiles stating that these and other rules not delineated here in this brief post, developed with the permission of the Almighty (parsha Shoftim) as recorded in the Torah, are not legitimate is as relevant as non-Catholics telling Catholics their rules do not define who is and who is not a Catholic, or non-Americans telling Americans their immigration laws are do not confer American citizenship on the immigrant who successfully applies and completes the process.

Sorry. In each case, respectively, if you are not a member of the given community, you surely can hold your opinion, but it is immaterial. When a gentile approaches the Jewish community courteously, with a view to learning, and if their sincerity is understood, he will typically be treated with respect and kindness. The challenges can be met with answers, but Torah Judaism does not change because of what gentiles think of it.

Now, back to the topic at hand...this thread is over 160 posts hijacked...who can prove that there existed a "palestinian people" with a separate language and culture prior to 1967?

[revolutionisnow]

Please quote the passage where it says people are awarded the land based on their religion. And why do people need to have a separate language to be a culture or people? Doesn't most of South America share the same language and culture?

[Dr.3D]

Please quote the passage where it says people are awarded the land based on their religion. And why do people need to have a separate language to be a culture or people? Doesn't most of South America share the same language and culture?

Well, just off the top of my head, I would cite the book of Numbers Chapter 34.

Elya might have something else in mind though.

[ElyaKatz]

Please quote the passage where it says people are awarded the land based on their religion. And why do people need to have a separate language to be a culture or people? Doesn't most of South America share the same language and culture?

How is it that people are awarded land simply on the basis of conquering it? So, the Arabs conquered the Land of Israel in 636. That's yesterday in the history of both peoples, for one thing. The mere right of might has been disputed many times. Just because Israel was conquered by a succession of nations does not mean we gave up our right to live in our own land unimpeded by outside nations.

Re "the passage" please be more specific. Quote a passage from what book??

Re South America, that's a whole 'nuther can of worms. The Americas are probably not the best example to use in comparison to ancient nations, such as Israel, France, Spain, Germany, Poland, Russia, China, Japan etc (to name a few). There are some things that might be applicable to Israel's situation, but there is also a lot that is simply not applicable.

The whole "palestinian people" creation was cooked up by Yasir Arafat and other PR agents for the Arab world sometime around 1967, and quotes can be found admitting as much. I've posted them at my blog and on this site. They created this mythological people, who are really simply Arabs, in order to compete with the Jewish people in the battlefield of world opinion, because they knew they couldn't win militarily. Furthermore, these people can't tolerate Jewish or Christian sovereigty in one square centimeter of the Middle East, because they are either Pan-Arabists (secular), or Islamic supremacists (religious). As far as such people are concerned, Jews can live miserably subjugated lives in the Middle East as dhimmis, as can the Christians, but Arab/Islamic sensibilities will allow nothing more. That in turn, creates a need among Middle Eastern Christians and Jews to create legal protections for themselves, such as exists in a Christian or Jewish sovereign nation...in the cases of Lebanon and Israel respectively.

The Middle East is not the Middle West...the structures of societies in the Middle East must be different in some ways than the American model, if peoples of faiths other than Islam are to live there in safety and security.

You would do well to fight the battle to award Arabs in the rest of the Middle East more freedom. The Arabs in both the PA and under the government of Israel do much, much better than Arabs in any other nation in the Middle East.

[angelatc]

WTF does any of this have to do with Ron Paul or America, other than we should stop sending Israel guns and money?

[ElyaKatz]

Well, just off the top of my head, I would cite the book of Numbers Chapter 34.

Elya might have something else in mind though.
Revolutionisnow needs to be more specific before I take him up on his challenge.

[ElyaKatz]

WTF does any of this have to do with Ron Paul or America, other than we should stop sending Israel guns and money?
This is the "Off Topic" forum. You'd have to read my base post to understand how some of this thread is relevant. But very few people at this thread are actually sticking to the topic, so it's understandably confusing.

[angelatc]

This is the "Off Topic" forum. You'd have to read my base post to understand how some of this thread is relevant. But very few people at this thread are actually sticking to the topic, so it's understandably confusing.


Why is this even on this board, off topic or not?

I read enough of your first post to see that you don't believe the Palestinians exist, which means I think you're batshit crazy, and therefore could not care less about what you deem relevant.

[ElyaKatz]

Why is this even on this board, off topic or not?I could ask the same thing of many posts on this site which are posted only to vilify and demonize Israel, Israelis, Jews, Judaism and venerated rabbis. If the beef was truly only the issue of foreign aid, the criticism wouldn't zero in on Israel as heavily as it does with some members.[/FONT]


I read enough of your first post to see that you don't believe the Palestinians exist, which means I think you're batshit crazy, and therefore could not care less about what you deem relevant.
If you don't appreciate this thread, then go visit something more to your liking. In several of my posts on this thread, including the first one, I stated that my current agenda is to balance the scales. I've received some pats on the back from several members in doing so. Apparently, I"m not alone.

There is a much higher percentage of irrelevant-to Ron-Paul anti-Israel posts at this site, posted by a very active minority of members. I think most Liberty Forest members are tired of them, and they give good men like Dr. Ron Paul a bad name.

[revolutionisnow]

So, what other games of "turn back the clocks of time" can we play? Do African Americans have the right to steal land in Egypt? What about whites in Australia, can they just head towards Rome and bulldoze a few houses and declare the land theirs?

And WRONG on the numbers 34, that clearly talks about TRIBES. So that means if Arabs were a member of any of those tribes the land is theirs if we are using that as a legal binding contract. I can claim I am a member of Benjamin tribe also, so I have a right to some land and citizenship also, and I have just as much proof as you do. http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B04C034.htm

There’s No “J” in Hebrew, Greek or Latin so I don't know where you are getting all this nonsense about it being given to the "Jews".

[ElyaKatz]

So, what other games of "turn back the clocks of time" can we play? Do African Americans have the right to steal land in Egypt? What about whites in Australia, can they just head towards Rome and bulldoze a few houses and declare the land theirs?

And WRONG on the numbers 34, that clearly talks about TRIBES. So that means if Arabs were a member of any of those tribes the land is theirs if we are using that as a legal binding contract. I can claim I am a member of Benjamin tribe also, so I have a right to some land and citizenship also, and I have just as much proof as you do. http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B04C034.htm

There’s No “J” in Hebrew, Greek or Latin so I don't know where you are getting all this nonsense about it being given to the "Jews".

Okay. Have it your way. The Yehudim, or as the Arabs say, the Yahood. I was under the impression that this was an English language Forum, so I try to use the English equivalent terms most of the time.

Re the bulldozing etc...it's not so simple as you know. First of all, things didn't happen in Israel the way you are implying. Second, there is a precedent for regaining stolen national homelands. The nation who has been thusly displaced must first, refuse to relinquish their claim or disappear. Check on both counts. Very unusual too.

The example is Spain. The Spanish lost all but one itty bitty corner of their homeland in the northern mountains of Spain to the Muslims. I guess in spite of the Inquisition, the Spaniards and the Jews have some significant characterisitics in common. Chutzpah, determination and a long memory.

Americans can't see these disputes in their proper historical perspective, because Americans have only been a nation for a couple of hundred years. To Americans, 30 years is a long time. To Jews, Arabs, Spaniards, etc...600 years is yesterday. 1200 is the day before.

So, to answer your question, had the peoples you mentioned not relinquished their claims, then they would be within their rights to reclaim any stolen national homeland. And I would not be surprised if the Native Americans someday rise up. The treaties that were "signed" between the different tribes and the Federal government are not recognized as legal within many of the tribes.

So goes history.

[revolutionisnow]

So do Australians have the right to Rome or not? And can you rebut my claim that I am from the Benjamin tribe? And again, please quote the passage that says the land was given to them based on religion.

[ElyaKatz]

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985....
Misquoting, or quoting out of context, the words of Jewish leaders is a a well-known strategy of the hard-left.

Jared Israel discusses Benny Morris, for example: "For years, Benny Morris fabricated ‘facts’ -- mistranslated passages so that, for example, Ben-Gurion seemed to be saying Arabs should be expelled when in fact he was saying they should not be expelled. Morris took statements out of context or left out parts of quotations so that Israeli leaders seemed to be calling for the harshest conduct, when they were in fact calling for the most humane conduct possible under the circumstances. He even fabricated evidence wholesale -- manufactured documents -- to make Israel look bad. This is proved in devastating detail by Efraim Karsh. One of Prof. Karsh’s best exposés is on the Internet. It is worth reading." From Benny Morris:The Kiss That Kills (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/3409) by Jared Israel.

Benny Morris and the Reign of Error (http://www.meforum.org/466/benny-morris-and-the-reign-of-error) by Efraim Karsh
Historical and Investigative Research (http://www.hirhome.com/) by Dr. Francisco Gil-White.

On the supposed ‘about face’ of some anti-Israeli historians (Benny Morris and Nathan Weinstock) (http://www.hirhome.com/israel/about_face.htm) by Dr. Francisco Gil-White

More about Dr. White and his various publications (http://www.hirhome.com/academic.htm#publications)


Nope. There's no problem with Israeli leadership and their policy of apartheid, is there?

I am not claiming there are no problems with Israeli leadership. Nobody is an angel in warfare. However, any words or actions against the Arab world by Jews, whether leaders or no, are dwarfed in comparison to what the Arab leadership and the average Arab man on the street openly advocates against the Jewish people, whether we choose to make our homes in Eretz Israel or anywhere else, whether individually or as a people.


One example among many:


YouTube - Rape Them (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7Yun11eTIU)


The two most shameful things about America's inception is the treatment of Native Americans and slavery. And while I'm sure you're inspired by our history with the Native Americans, it's certainly nothing that anyone can ethically defend.
All you know of me is that I'm proud to be Jewish, that I defend Israel's right to defend herself, and that I appreciate Dr. Paul's views re the US constitution and the Federal Reserve. So why do you publicly humiliate yourself by making the following statement: "And while I'm sure you're inspired by our history with the Native Americans..."

I have never defended how the Native Americans have been treated by Americans and the US Government.

My contention is that if there is a parallel anywhere, the parallel exists between the Native Americans as victims of foreign conquerors and and the Jewish people, also as victims of foreign conquerors. There was recently a Native American chief that went to Israel to encourage the Israeli government to defend the Jewish people's land.


The Native Americans did not have a fully-structured government or a particular name for America (that I know of), but I'm absolutely sure that they are Native Americans, despite the fact that an outside group gave them that name. I'm also absolutely sure that they are human beings who were greatly wronged.

Agreed.

As far as the structure of governments, recognition of borders between nations etc. there are no parallels between either the Arab people or the Jewish people and the Native Americans. Both the Arab and Jewish world have had borders and structured governments, at least in recorded history, for a much longer time than the Native Americans, as both people have had written literatures and histories for hundreds and thousands of years respectively.

The fact that there was no "nation" called Palestine or people called Palestinians makes the point that in an area where organized government did indeed exist, there was no government of "Palestine", nor did any people named the "Palestinians" seek independent sovereignty until it became obvious that such a strategy might be the only strategy available to wrest Jewish land away from the Jewish people, since a military victory was not forthcoming. The term "Palestine", imposed on the region by the Romans after the final destruction of Jerusalem, is a geographical term, not the name of any nation or people, and this by the Arab world's own admission.

Zuheir Mohsen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen), as quoted in the Trouw, March 31, 1977:

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism." These statements were later published in the Boston Herald.

King Abdullah Hussein, as well as his grandson, King Hussein bin Talal, and Prince Hassan of the Jordanian National Assembly, have all been quoted as making similar statements.

Distinguished Arab-American Princeton University historian Philip Hitti testified before the Anglo-American Committee (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_angloamerican_1945.php),‘There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in history.’

The region has been the Jewish homeland with Jewish government, institutions and borders for thousands of years. The fact that Eretz Israel had a fully functioning Jewish government which had been forcibly occupied by foreign powers does not confer upon those foreign powers the right of sovereignty. Nations have, from time to time, been occupied by foreigners, and have repulsed those occupiers. It is not the Arab nations who are occupied, but who have been occupiers of Jewish land (among others), and refuse to give up their occupation.

In this way, the Jewish people have found themselves in circumstances more closely resembling that of the Native Americans, with the Arabs, British, Turks, Byzantines, Persians, Romans, Greeks etc....taking the position of the Europeans who conquered the Americas, stealing Native American lands.


If you want to justify theft with the bible, political structures or plain old BS, you'll do better with people who don't put such importance on individual sovereignty and property ownership. Why bring your Hasbara propaganda here?

You can treat the Bible as old wives tales if you like. But the fact is, as far as documentation of our history from the beginning of our nationhood goes, both good and bad, no people surpasses us. This works to our advantage and disadvantage. Were the various European nations to have such reliable documentation, we might be discussing whether or not the French have a right to France. All of Europe might be dismantled under the reasoning of those who would take Eretz Israel away from the Jewish people. And Americans of European descent would stand no chance whatsoever of retaining sovereignty of the Americas.

I am citing solid sources for my claims. I take the positions I choose because I am in favor of freedom and against fascism. Why do you support the PA aka the PLO, which was swallowed by al-Fatah, which was started by Haj Amin al-Husayni? (Yasir Arafat was his favorite protege.) Haj Amin al-Husayni was a close friend to Adolf Hitler and encouraged him to ratchet up his war against the Jewish people by changing his strategy to rid Europe of Jews by not merely deporting them, the original plan of the Nazis, but by murdering them all.

Sources that prove this and other unsavory facts regarding the "Palestinian" leadership and movement are easy to find in many history books, as well as on the internet.


YouTube - Hitler, The Mufti Of Jerusalem And Modern Islamo Nazism (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d51poygEXYU)

I can't see how such an organization, which claims to be the only legitimate representative of the so-called "Palestinian" people, regardless of its current politically correct name, (PLO/PA) has anything to do with the aspirations of legitimate American patriots. Accepting the Arab narrative on the history of the region; rejecting the Jewish narrative as illegitimate (your term was BS); by claiming that Israel is carrying out atrocities against "innocent" Arabs; and ignoring the right of the Jewish people who live in the region to defend themselves; taking these positions makes a mockery of the principles of liberty for which this country aspires to represent.

Following is just one of many scholarly papers on the nefarious history of the PA/PLO/Al-Fatah.

Understanding the Palestinian Movement (http://www.hirhome.com/israel/pal_mov4.htm#final_solution)

[lester1/2jr]

Palestine before 1917 (http://www.aldeilis.net/english/images/stories/israelpalestine/claimsbefore1917.pdf)


succinct summary of who the palestinian people are

[amy31416]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]Misquoting, or quoting out of context, the words of Jewish leaders is a a well-known strategy of the hard-left.

I see. And what, specifically, do you call it when you accuse a person of being "hard-left" rather than focus on the specific point? In fact, that accusation only makes you look more foolish, no matter how tiny you make your font.

In response to Ben Gurion's quote being "out of context," that's BS and you know it.

Here's just one article analyzing Gurion's statement:


Nor should we take from Mr Ben Gurion's statement that the concept of Palestinian evacuation was confined to the years 1947 - 1948. The concept of transfer of the indigenous Arab population to make way for a Jewish state was intrinsic to the thinking of the Zionist leaders from its initial inception.

Thus Theodor Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, said in 1892:

[We shall] spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.

And in 1937, Ben Gurion stated:

The compulsory transfer of Arabs from the valleys of the proposed Jewish state could give us something which we never had, even when we stood on our own feet during the days of the First and Second Temple.

And in a letter to his son, also in 1937, he stated:

We must expel the Arabs and take their places and if we have to use force, to guarantee our own right to settle in those places * then we have force at our disposal.

And in early 1948 Ben Gurion wrote in his War Diary,

"During the assault we must be ready to strike the decisive blow; that is, either to destroy the towns or expel its inhabitants so our people can replace them."

And in February 1948, Ben Gurion told Yoseph Weitz, director of the settlement of the Jewish National Fund and head of the official Transfer Committee of 1948:

The war will give us land. The concept of 'ours' and 'not ours' are peace concepts, only, in war they lose their whole meaning.

In fact, the concept of transfer, a euphemism for expulsion, was embraced by the entire Jewish leadership from the earliest stages of Zionism until the 1948 extirpation of the indigenous population. Transfer committees were actually set up from 1937 on until 1948 in order to study ways of riding Palestine of as many Arabs as possible.

By the end of the 1948 War, hundreds of Arab villages had been completely depopulated. Their house and buildings were bulldozed of blown up primarily for the purpose of preventing the return of their owners. Benny Morris lists 369 Palestinian villages and towns destroyed, while Professor Walid Khalidi, leading a team of field researchers, in an exhaustive study, describes the destruction of each of 418 villages or hamlets which are listed on an index of Palestinian cities of 1945.

Read more at: http://www.counterpunch.org/martin03112005.html

So, Elya, sweetie, if you're going to try to push people to believe things that are so obviously inaccurate, you're going to have to try harder. The fact that Zionist leaders want to get rid of the Palestinians and take their land is so obvious that to deny it is something that, if I spell it out, would possibly be a violation of the forum guidelines. So you can use your imagination.

In regards to the rest of your wall of text, as I've said before--be honest about it and perhaps we can talk. My response to your first "point" is far more than your post merited.

[lester1/2jr]

If you want to understand this conflict a really good book is "Jerusalem 1913". It was a pivotal year and alot of what happened really set the stage for what is still happening now.

[ElyaKatz]

Palestine before 1917 (http://www.aldeilis.net/english/images/stories/israelpalestine/claimsbefore1917.pdf)


succinct summary of who the palestinian people are
"Palestinians are the descendants of the Canaanites and the Philistines." And how is this claim substantiated in fact??? Funny funny funny. One can depend on historical data or on mythology retroactively claimed in the face of cultural and military incompetence, and religious despotism...though Islam is more a military ideology with a religious component than a true religion.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf1.html#b1 (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf1.html#b1)

MYTH

“The Palestinians are descendants of the Canaanites and were in Palestine long before the Jews.”

FACT

"Palestinian claims to be related to the Canaanites are a recent phenomenon and contrary to historical evidence. The Canaanites disappeared from the face of the earth three millennia ago, and no one knows if any of their descendants survived or, if they did, who they would be.

Sherif Hussein, the guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia, said the Palestinians' ancestors had only been in the area for 1,000 years.9 Even the Palestinians themselves have acknowledged their association with the region came long after the Jews. In testimony before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, for example, they claimed a connection to Palestine of more than 1,000 years, dating back no further than the conquest of Muhammad's followers in the 7th century.10 And that claim is also dubious. Over the last 2,000 years, there have been massive invasions that killed off most of the local people (e.g., the Crusades), migrations, the plague, and other manmade or natural disasters. The entire local population was replaced many times over. During the British mandate alone, more than 100,000 Arabs emigrated from neighboring countries and are today considered Palestinians.

By contrast, no serious historian questions the more than 3,000-year-old Jewish connection to the Land of Israel, or the modern Jewish people's relation to the ancient Hebrews."

[lester1/2jr]

"Even the Palestinians themselves have acknowledged their association with the region came long after the Jews"

you asked each one of them?

[ElyaKatz]

I see. And what, specifically, do you call it when you accuse a person of being "hard-left" rather than focus on the specific point? In fact, that accusation only makes you look more foolish, no matter how tiny you make your font.

If you had read my sources, you would know I made specific points re the like of Benny Morris and the so-called "New Israeli Historians". I happen to like the font. The option is there. If I'd wanted to hide my views, I wouldn't post.


In response to Ben Gurion's quote being "out of context," that's BS and you know it.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.


Here's just one article analyzing Gurion's state.ment:

Read more at: http://www.counterpunch.org/martin03112005.html

Amy, it's more of the same....citing the likes of Benny Morris, who has admitted that he has not done comprehensive research.


So, Elya, sweetie, if you're going to try to push people to believe things that are so obviously inaccurate, you're going to have to try harder. The fact that Zionist leaders want to get rid of the Palestinians and take their land is so obvious that to deny it is something that, if I spell it out, would possibly be a violation of the forum guidelines. So you can use your imagination.

In regards to the rest of your wall of text, as I've said before--be honest about it and perhaps we can talk. My response to your first "point" is far more than your post merited.

Amy,

We both know you and I are never going to agree. So, if my posts annoy you so much, how about you stop chasing me around?? Either way, doesn't matter to me. You want to do some real research? Look into what true scholars write about Benny Morris et al. He is discredited by objective historians, such statements being posted already. I made my claim re the hard-left and backed up my claim with links and facts. Ad homs won't undo those sources.

If my "wall of text" is too difficult for you to slog through, then maybe you shouldn't waste your time on them. Just an idea. Backing up claims with verifiable data sometimes takes up a bit of room. Learning about the history of the Middle East takes reading books, lots of books from many perspectives over a period of years. They're usually longer than the average post. I actually quote from said books, and from sources. My posts are often long because I quote my opponent, and my sources for the convenience of the reader. As for pushing things, I am responding the lies put out by some who have been sucked into the well-funded Arab propaganda machine. These groups definitely do not promote liberty in a way shape or form.

No one is forced to read my posts, so I can hardly be accused of pushing anything.

[lester1/2jr]

there are a large amount of jews in israel who have zero ethnic connection to the land. Many of the russian jews for example, converted around the time of charlemagne. they are not semites


more to the point: no one really has any rightful claim to any land. you have to fight for it. If israael really wants to fight for a tiny area of land in the middle of one of the least productive most violent places on earth, go ahead. the odds are certainly against you population wise: 6 million vs a billion muslims

it's when you involve the united states that you cross the line. YOU are the ones who are fighting this crusade not ME. so I don't want to have another 9/11 here because Israel keeps pissing people off and then hiding behind US. fight your OWN FIGHTS don't manipulate the US to do it for you

[ElyaKatz]

If you want to understand this conflict a really good book is "Jerusalem 1913". It was a pivotal year and alot of what happened really set the stage for what is still happening now.
I read the reviews. Looks like an interesting read, though one reviewer claimed it didn't have enough in the way of sourcing. "If this is a history book, how come there are no footnotes or endnotes? There is an extensive bibliography but no references for individual claims throughout the text. In particular, there are some dubious claims for which a reference is badly needed."

Thanks. I'll put it on my book wishlist. I never tire of reading history books.

[ElyaKatz]

"Even the Palestinians themselves have acknowledged their association with the region came long after the Jews"

you asked each one of them?
You quoted from another source I cited, not from my own words. Your question is absurd. The article quoted refers to public statements made by Arab leaders.

[ElyaKatz]

there are a large amount of jews in israel who have zero ethnic connection to the land. Many of the russian jews for example, converted around the time of charlemagne. they are not semites
And if I discuss the fact that all religions and peoples (including America) have the right to admit people who swear an oath of loyalty to their religion, nation etc. would that be illegitimate in your eyes? If I then stated that genetically most Jews are proven to be of semitic origin, thus giving them the right to sovereignty in Eretz Israel, would that argument would be shot down as racism?

Most people who claim the Jewish people have no legitimate, legal and historical claim to Eretz Israel argue both sides of the coin, depending on which claim is presented in favor. But that puts Americans of European descent in a tough position vis a vis their own claim to this continent.


more to the point: no one really has any rightful claim to any land. you have to fight for it. If israael really wants to fight for a tiny area of land in the middle of one of the least productive most violent places on earth, go ahead. the odds are certainly against you population wise: 6 million vs a billion muslims
You are correct in that the Jewish people must be willing to fight for their land. And they have shown themselves up to the task. As for being outnumbered, well, we'll see how that works out. King Hezekiah suffered under a similar dilemma.

it's when you involve the united states that you cross the line. YOU are the ones who are fighting this crusade not ME. so I don't want to have another 9/11 here because Israel keeps pissing people off and then hiding behind US. fight your OWN FIGHTS don't manipulate the US to do it for you
I haven't involved anyone, any more than you have. If I had my way, and I have also stated this many times on this site, I would definitely want Israel to operate as an independent nation, not tied to the apron strings of the US. Agreed. No foreign aid to any nation, including Israel.

The US government chooses to involve itself for it's own misguided geopolitical purposes. It does not work out to Israel's advantage, as I have also proven with link/citations in my posts. My guess is they are not read, which demonstrates that most people who hold your positions hold them based on misinformation, and a surface analysis of what is really going on.

[Dr.3D]

I read the reviews. ~Snip

Elya, could you please set the font a bit larger for your future posts. I'm trying to follow some of these threads and, I keep having to look over my bifocals to read those small letters. ;)

[ElyaKatz]

Elya, could you please set the font a bit larger for your future posts. I'm trying to follow some of these threads and, I keep having to look over my bifocals to read those small letters. ;)

Okay. Sorry. I like the font, that's all. I'm a font shopper. Can you read the default font okay??

[amy31416]

Amy,

We both know you and I are never going to agree. So, if my posts annoy you so much, how about you stop chasing me around?? Either way, doesn't matter to me. You want to do some real research? Look into what true scholars write about Benny Morris et al. He is discredited by objective historians, such statements being posted already. I made my claim re the hard-left and backed up my claim with links and facts. Ad homs won't undo those sources.

If my "wall of text" is too difficult for you to slog through, then maybe you shouldn't waste your time on them. Just an idea. Backing up claims with verifiable data sometimes takes up a bit of room. Learning about the history of the Middle East takes reading books, lots of books from many perspectives over a period of years. They're usually longer than the average post. I actually quote from said books, and from sources. My posts are often long because I quote my opponent, and my sources for the convenience of the reader. As for pushing things, I am responding the lies put out by some who have been sucked into the well-funded Arab propaganda machine. These groups definitely do not promote liberty in a way shape or form.

No one is forced to read my posts, so I can hardly be accused of pushing anything.

Chasing after you? You have a large and very misguided ego. You're the one who writes a mini-dissertation trying desperately to get people to deny the facts on the ground. And you wrote it specifically to me. I read a thread and while I know how to find every single post that a person has written, I've never done that with your posts. I've read Israeli propaganda before, and when it doesn't make me angry with how much the truth is twisted, it bores the crap out of me. I don't like seeing it on a forum that I like and so I'll call you out on it from time to time.

There is no Arab propaganda machine in the US, so, you can talk down to me all you'd like, but your asinine assertions speak for themselves. If anything, our media is an Israeli propaganda machine--just another thing that's so obvious as to make your statements ridiculous. And for the records, I'm just as critical of the twisted relationship that my government has with Saudi Arabia--if you were here promoting that, you'd get the same treatment from me.

I'd feel sorry for you if the results of the propaganda you promote haven't been so tragic for my country. I resent you pimping it on a forum that is dedicated to restoring this country.

You can be accused of pushing something nefarious because you are.

[Dr.3D]

Okay. Sorry. I like the font, that's all. I'm a font shopper. Can you read the default font okay??

Yes it works fine, this is in "Book Antigua" size "3". And I can read it pretty well.


Edit: Font Size does work, I just did it incorrectly.

[ElyaKatz]

Chasing after you? You have a large and very misguided ego.

Has nothing to do with my ego pal. BTW, my name is Ellie....I've told you that several times and you continue to refer to me as Elya, somehow thinking I'm a man. My hubby and I use the same handle at our blog. That's our blog's email address. For simplicity's sake, at the time (over 18 months ago) I figured I would not be visiting this site much, since I had only put it on my blogroll as a recommendation from a RP supporter friend who first pointed me towards Ron Paul. In order to remember the handle, I chose to use the email address handle here. You continue to disparage my posts, yet you continue to visit them. Seems sort of unproductive to me. Why do you bother since you are supposedly a non-interventionist in foreign affairs, you know, wanting the best for everyone and alliances with no one, that sort of thing? After all, there are over 22,000 other members at his site, and whole world of posts to respond to.


You're the one who writes a mini-dissertation trying desperately to get people to deny the facts on the ground. And you wrote it specifically to me.

Nothing desperate here. I rather enjoy taking on my opponents. It's much easier to defend the truth than it is to make up history from thin air. I never PM'd you and asked you to respond to my threads, but I will respond to your sarcastic, personal attacks, and your utter lack of factual information.


I read a thread and while I know how to find every single post that a person has written, I've never done that with your posts. I've read Israeli propaganda before, and when it doesn't make me angry with how much the truth is twisted, it bores the crap out of me. I don't like seeing it on a forum that I like and so I'll call you out on it from time to time..

Your choice. You have yet to prove that my facts are incorrect however.



There is no Arab propaganda machine in the US, so, you can talk down to me all you'd like, but your asinine assertions speak for themselves. If anything, our media is an Israeli propaganda machine--just another thing that's so obvious as to make your statements ridiculous. And for the records, I'm just as critical of the twisted relationship that my government has with Saudi Arabia--if you were here promoting that, you'd get the same treatment from me.

On the one hand you say there is no Arab propaganda machine, then you complain about the twisted relationship the US government has with Saudi Arabia. Do you really think all those petrodollars do NOT go to influencing our educational institutions, our governmental institutions, and our media? Check out how Saudi Arabia influences our Title VI educational institutions, just one example. Check out how many Saudis are advisors in our governmental and financial institutions....if unofficial, still very influential. They do party and lot of the money away, but not all of it.


I'd feel sorry for you if the results of the propaganda you promote haven't been so tragic for my country. I resent you pimping it on a forum that is dedicated to restoring this country.

I resent Muslim/Arab propagandists trying to infiltrate excellent forums such as this one. I will have my say, whether you like it or not.


You can be accused of pushing something nefarious because you are.

And what "nefarious" thing would that be Amy??? Jews being able to live in peace? Does that annoy you so much?? You know what? If 14 million souls (optimistic estimate) spread all over the world, often beleaguered by antisemitic nutcases, can really control as much as paranoid people think we can, I say nearly 7 billion other people deserve to be dominated. If they are that stupid, heck they need to be dominated.

But the fact of the matter is, 14 million souls, most of whom are little people with a small sphere of influence, do not and cannot possibly "run" the US or the rest of the world the way the misinformed and brainwashed seem to believe. What's more, we're not interested. Most of us just want to be left alone to live in peace.

[ElyaKatz]

Yes it works fine, this is in "Book Antigua" size "3". And I can read it pretty well.


Edit: Font Size does work, I just did it incorrectly.

Simpler just to forget the font. It took more time than I should give to these posts anyway. I changed them all back to default. I hope that works. I don't like Book Antigua in 3.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[ElyaKatz]

But if you come into this forum as a one issue pro-zionist poster it's okay.

What the hell is going on here...

I did not come to this forum expecting as much anti-Israel vitriol as I have found. I see it as a threat to Libertarianism.


But in response to this poster I recognize the following passages of scripture:

God's promise was to Abraham and his seed. Gentiles are not eligible to receive this promise because they do not come from Abraham's seed.

The nation of Israel according to God's promise to Abraham is hereditary, which is the basis of classifying race.

Gentiles may only receive salvation through Jesus Christ. This is because gentiles are not from Abraham's seed and not eligible to benefit from God's covenant with Abraham.

Interesting perspective, but it takes a certain amount of chutzpah to tell Jews how to define themselves, since the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob actually made us (subordinate) partners with Him in how the Torah is to be administered. Gentiles who choose to take on the covenant have always been admitted into the nation. Being Jewish is not only a religion. It is peoplehood, nationhood, passed down generationally and it can also be lost generationally.


If you are from Abraham's seed I bless and support you.

Thanks for that. However, Ishmael is also a part of Abraham's seed, and he is not an inheritor of this particular covenant. Esau is also a genetic part of Abraham's seed, but he was also disqualified on the basis that he spurned his birthright, and did not adhere to the dictates of said covenant.


If you are from Abraham's seed I bless and support you. If you are not from Abraham's seed I consider you a deceiver. You would seek to redeem a promise that is not yours.

I do not recognize a Jew who denies their hereditary race as part of the nation of Israel.

Then I take it you don't recognize Ruth as part of the line of David??


Abraham was a Hebrew.

Israel is the name given to Jacob. The tribes of Israel are Jacob's seed.

What of Joseph's wife??




Israel has 12 tribes.

Israel and Judah are separate.

Such was not always the case, nor will it be the case in the Messianic Era. The separation came of tragedy. All twelve tribes will one day be united as one people, as is promised by the prophets.


Deceivers advocate doing God's work on his behalf. In addition a deceiver would say they must carry this out because it is God's command but when talking about Jeremiah 7 (below) they will say

God has commanded the tribes of Israel to reform your ways. The descendants of Abraham must separate from the state of Israel. The state of Israel is not God's covenant. I bless all descendants of Abraham the Hebrew and their covenant with God. If their are any of you living in the state of Israel please separate yourself from an evil state that performs evil and deceives people.

Okay. Well, that's one gentile's view on things. I'm not going to get into it deeply with you, because HKB"H deals with his firstborn son, the Children of Israel, in ways that the gentiles (also His children) often do not understand and really have no say over. As a Jew, I acknowledge legitimate concerns re the State of Israel, yet I still see the hand of the Almighty in the re-constitution of a nation for the Jewish people. In the end, it will be a nation for all of twelve tribes, and when that happens, we will all know for sure that Messiah ben David has arrived on the scene.

And all the confusion on all parts will be cleared up. Until then, let's not go hating on the obvious victims of terrorism. If the State of Israel, home to nearly 6 million Jews (also children of Jacob/Israel) goes down as a result of the jihad declared against it, then Europe and America are next.

[pacelli]

I did not come to this forum expecting as much anti-Israel vitriol as I have found. I see it as a threat to Libertarianism.

I'm pro-Israel all the way. My father in law is Israeli. He was in the Israeli military during the 6 day war. He's told me on several occasions that he wishes the US would let Israel manage their own affairs (foreign and domestic). And I agree with my father in law. Ron Paul was the only presidential candidate expressing this view, and that's what got his vote for Ron Paul. Paul's position on Israel.

And I consider myself to be a libertarian.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Dr.3D]

~Snip
So in your view are gentiles part of the covenant with Abraham and his descendants?
Snip~


In my view, some Gentiles have been adopted as children of Abraham.
But then again, I am a Christian with different views than Elle has.

[YumYum]

I have seen this debate many times regarding Israel stealing the land of the Palestinians, and it all boils down to "G-d gave us the land". There may be a God; I don’t know. But I do know I don't believe in a Muslim god. I don't believe in a Babylonian god, or an Egyptian god. I don’t believe in an Assyrian god. I don’t believe in a Philistine god, or the god of the Hittites. I don’t believe in the god of the Medes and Persians. I don’t believe in the Greek gods, or the Roman gods.

History shows that these civilizations were very superstitious, and I am sorry to tell you my Zionist apologist friend, but the Jews were also superstitious. I also don’t believe in a Jewish god. If your god does exist, he has done your people a great disservice by letting Jews be slaughtered by their enemies time after time, and still you and your people don’t get it. Neither do I.

[ElyaKatz]

I have seen this debate many times regarding Israel stealing the land of the Palestinians, and it all boils down to "G-d gave us the land".

And by rights the Jewish people could have taken it back by force, because there is no statute of limitations on a stolen homeland. See Spanish history vis a vis the Moors. But we chose to legally purchase most of it. The balance was won by wars that were foisted on the Israelis. Any other version of the story is invented Arab revisionist history, Benny Morris and the so-called "new Israeli historians" notwithstanding. He has admitted that he has not done his research as completely as needed to make the statements he's made in the past. See Dr. Francisco Gil-White, historical researcher for more information.


There may be a God; I don’t know. But I do know I don't believe in a Muslim god. I don't believe in a Babylonian god, or an Egyptian god. I don’t believe in an Assyrian god. I don’t believe in a Philistine god, or the god of the Hittites. I don’t believe in the god of the Medes and Persians. I don’t believe in the Greek gods, or the Roman gods.

History shows that these civilizations were very superstitious, and I am sorry to tell you my Zionist apologist friend, but the Jews were also superstitious. I also don’t believe in a Jewish god. If your god does exist, he has done your people a great disservice by letting Jews be slaughtered by their enemies time after time, and still you and your people don’t get it. Neither do I.

First of all, what a delicious handle. :D Seriously, I really like it. I'm thinking of a new name for my blog. Is your handle copyrighted???

Second, you don't need to tell me whether the Jewish people are superstitious or not, since I am Jewish and am quite familiar with the ways of my people. Some are superstitious and some are not. If you consider belief in a Higher Authority superstitious, I call him HKB"H (HaKodesh Baruch Hu, which means the Holy One Blessed Be He in Hebrew) then may all Jews be superstitious.

Third, the evils we have fallen victim to were not perpetrated by HKB"H. He gives mankind the ability to do good or evil. Evil is done by people. There is not much in the way of justice in this world, which you seem to be alluding to. I agree and it's a sad, sorry fact. We comfort ourselves with the thought that ultimately, justice will be served. If not in this world, then in the next. We should all hope that justice in each of our cases is served in this world, for the justice reserved for evil-doers in the next is nothing to contemplate for very long, unless one contemplates it in order to refrain.

Here's a question to consider: If you don't believe in a Creator who has moral expectations of you (ethical monotheism) then how do you determine that any given action or event is right or wrong? The definition of moral right or moral wrong would constantly be on shifting ground. Over time, even a moral society's ethical baseline would shift.

So, just as a theoretical: The Holocaust, without an absolute standard of right and wrong, would be good if you benefit from the Jewish people's disenfranchisement, because you might have gotten a free house, fully furnished, and my savings account, which would enable you to send your son to medical school. Had you not found yourself the beneficiary of this windfall, your son would have lived a pauper's life, struggling to feed your grandchildren. On the flip side, in such a morally shifting climate, the Holocaust would be bad for me, because I lost my home and all that was in it, my life and my children.

Who determines whether a given act is good or evil? You have been raised in a culture where Biblical morality permeates every level of society. That morality is based on what the G-d of the Bible has stated is good or evil. But not all societies have this baseline of morality to go on. And...in those societies, people do not see anything wrong with stealing, abandoning their children, or killing someone who insults them. I know of people who go to those societies and live among them, in order to teach them Biblical morality (not necessarily missionaries) and they have interesting, tragic stories to tell.

As to your last statement, what are we supposed to "get" exactly?? And what don't you "get"?

Thanks for the friendly post. It's cool water on a parched mouth. Judging by the brief interchange, you seem like an honest, good soul.

Be well.

[ElyaKatz]

In my view, some Gentiles have been adopted as children of Abraham.
But then again, I am a Christian with different views than Elle has.

I don't presume the position of Judge. There is only One Boss.

The Land of Israel is only promised to the Children of Israel. Even if we don't live there, no other people will ever prosper in the Land of Israel except us. And as it goes for us, so it goes for the rest of the world. We aren't guaranteed the right to live in Eretz Israel either. HKB"H is King and we are His tenants. He purchased us when He took us out of Egypt. The privilege to live in Eretz Israel depends on our obedience.

But it is not promised to another nation and will be a millstone around the necks of any other people.

[ElyaKatz]

I'm pro-Israel all the way. My father in law is Israeli. He was in the Israeli military during the 6 day war. He's told me on several occasions that he wishes the US would let Israel manage their own affairs (foreign and domestic). And I agree with my father in law. Ron Paul was the only presidential candidate expressing this view, and that's what got his vote for Ron Paul. Paul's position on Israel.

And I consider myself to be a libertarian.

Good for you! And that is precisely why I post what I post here. I think these so-called RP supporters who defame Israel on a regular basis and claim the poor Palis are being oppressed give the whole movement a bad name, hurting Ron and Rand Paul's chances of election.

[ElyaKatz]

BS"D

On Live Free's use of the NIV...

NIV?? Why not go with the original, something from the JPS, Artscroll or Feldheim's? The NIV is not even a translation. It's like using "The Living Bible".

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[lester1/2jr]

[And if I discuss the fact that all religions and peoples (including America) have the right to admit people who swear an oath of loyalty to their religion, nation etc. would that be illegitimate in your eyes? If I then stated that genetically most Jews are proven to be of semitic origin, thus giving them the right to sovereignty in Eretz Israel, would that argument would be shot down as racism?

Most people who claim the Jewish people have no legitimate, legal and historical claim to Eretz Israel argue both sides of the coin, depending on which claim is presented in favor. But that puts Americans of European descent in a tough position vis a vis their own claim to this continent

you can't say russian jews have a right to israel on the basis of them being there before palestinians because they were never there!


You are correct in that the Jewish people must be willing to fight for their land. And they have shown themselves up to the task. As for being outnumbered, well, we'll see how that works out. King Hezekiah suffered under a similar dilemma.

they haven' shown themselves remotely up to the task. If it weren' for american support israel would have ended a long time ago. They hide behind us and our military industrial complex and billions a year in welfare.


My guess is they are not read, which demonstrates that most people who hold your positions hold them based on misinformation,

Israel is why we got 9/11 and it's going to be the cause of another one and I'm against another 9/11. got it?

israel is not wanted in the middle east. it's a jewish crusades and it's going to end like the last crusades. If you want to be a crusader feel free but if my nation is gonig to be roped into helping them I'm going to support their enemy out of self preservation. go palestine!

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[ElyaKatz]

I think one issue pro-zionist posters that contradict the mission statement of this forum and are never reminded of the forum mission statement, call into question the integrity of the forum.

If my posts contradict the mission statement of this forum, then so do those members who put post after post up insulting rabbis, and taking a strong stance in defense of Arab terrorism against Israelis, and basically rattling off claims from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion certainly hurt the integrity of the forum. Such utter nonsense serves to marginalize Dr. Paul and his son, Rand Paul.

[ElyaKatz]

If you want to be a crusader feel free but if my nation is gonig to be roped into helping them I'm going to support their enemy out of self preservation. go palestine!

I thought of the link below as I was mulling over your claim that Americans supposedly get roped into fighting Israel's wars. I know you truly believe this to be true, but it simply is not. It is evidence that you and many other Americans who think you know the "real truth" are falling for MSM nonsense.

Is the US an ally of Israel? A chronological look at the evidence (http://www.hirhome.com/israel/hirally.htm)

Dr. Francisco Gil-White used to be pro-PLO until he decided to do some research. He has Masters in Social Sciences from the University of Chicago and a PhD in biological and cultural anthropology from UCLA. So he's no lightweight historian/researcher. He approaches his work objectively.

911 was caused by Islamic fanatics. The Somalian community in this country were celebrating in the their coffee shops all night long the night of 911.The Muslim world regularly and proudly declares it's intentions to take over America, and replace the constitution with sharia. they brag about the "fall of capitalism" and have regular conferences on American soil to discuss their long range plans. Moderate Muslims in this country are outing their radical co-religionists, at risk to their own lives.

You will find out this is true, and it will be a sad day for me when I see Americans being forced to follow sharia. I take no pleasure in the possibility of such a future for this beautiful, great nation.

[YumYum]

First of all, what a delicious handle. :D Seriously, I really like it. I'm thinking of a new name for my blog. Is your handle copyrighted???

Here's a question to consider: If you don't believe in a Creator who has moral expectations of you (ethical monotheism) then how do you determine that any given action or event is right or wrong? The definition of moral right or moral wrong would constantly be on shifting ground. Over time, even a moral society's ethical baseline would shift.

As to your last statement, what are we supposed to "get" exactly?? And what don't you "get?

With regards to my moniker YumYum, it is with reference to “YumYum Israel”, the name that my Mom gave to a Jewish dish that she used to make. It is a delicate and smooth/creamy garlic sauce. Actually, I would love to market and sell it. It is ten times better than Hummus. What determines my morality, you ask? My conscience, which I was born with. Regarding Zionism, and what you don’t seem to “get”, is that your G-d is an angry G-d who murders innocent humans, including babies. I know. I used to worship him. I have two great-grandmothers who were Jewish (secular). My grandparents and my Dad joined a cult that worships the Hebrew G-d. I was raised in that religious group. One reason I am on this forum is to help non-Jews understand that Zionism does not represent the majority of Jews. Social Zionism, as you call it, breeds anti-Semitism, and millions of innocent Jews have been murdered because of the actions of a few. I have Jewish friends, and while they are defensive of Israel, they value life more than real estate, and blame Israel’s leaders as much as the Palestinian’s leaders for the conflict that is taking place in the occupied territories. Your G-d gave you the land 3,000 years ago. What a price mankind has had to pay, and is going to pay, for a small area of desert. Zionist care for no one, not even themselves, when it comes to the settling of Israel. They use whatever force is necessary to achieve their goals. They follow the example of your G-d in killing innocent people. Your G-d shows his thirst for blood in the 1st Book of Samuel. We read in Chapter 15, verses 1 through 3: “Samuel said to Saul, ‘I am the man whom Yahweh sent to anoint you king over his people, over Israel, so now listen to the words of Yahweh. Thus speaks Yahweh Sabaoth, “I will repay what Amalek did to Israel when they opposed them on the road by which they came up out of Egypt. Now, go and strike down Amalek; put him under the ban with all that he possesses. Do not spare him, but kill man and woman, babe and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey”.’” Yes, even little babies that were nursing were murdered.

What I don’t get? When will this genocide end?

[lester1/2jr]

Is the US an ally of Israel? A chronological look at the evidence


lol the guy has no idea what an ally is. no actually he's right, the US doesn't bend over backwards nearly enough for israel. billions in aid and overruling UN council rulings isn't enough. we should bend over in a complete circle. we are a contortinist when we shold be plasticman.


The Muslim world regularly and proudly declares it's intentions to take over America, and replace the constitution with sharia. they

you are a ron paul supporter who doesn't believe in blowback? that's the principle thing he is known for: the idea that our actions in the middle east are the cause of the resentment that fueled 9/11 NOT that they "hated us for our freedoms".


Moderate Muslims in this country are outing their radical co-religionists, at risk to their own lives

?? outing them as what? there no law against being a radical

[ElyaKatz]

lol the guy has no idea what an ally is. no actually he's right, the US doesn't bend over backwards nearly enough for israel. billions in aid and overruling UN council rulings isn't enough. we should bend over in a complete circle. we are a contortinist when we shold be plasticman.

Most of the aid comes in the form of coupons which give Israel the right to buy overstock military equipment. It's actually a form of government subsidy that keeps the only leg of the American economy propped up...the arms industry.


you are a ron paul supporter who doesn't believe in blowback? that's the principle thing he is known for: the idea that our actions in the middle east are the cause of the resentment that fueled 9/11 NOT that they "hated us for our freedoms".

While I believe in the concept of "blowback", I think Ron Paul is wrong on one point where blowback is concerned. We interfere in the business of foreign governments. Many foreign governments. We act like the big bully on the block all over the world. And we do this with Israel as well. Those coupons keep Israel tied to America's idea of Middle Eastern policy even when American foreign policy works against Israel's interests. That's the way money works. So, the apron strings should be cut, for the sake of both nations. Ron Paul has even said this. He has said that if all foreign aid were cut, it would work to Israel's advantage, because Israel's enemies are being armed at least as much as Israel.

It's easy to trace the type of blowback that really is hurting America. Even if Israel ceased to exist, the Muslim world would be trying to destroy America. The dirty business our CIA gets involved in certainly does cause us a lot of problems. You can thank the likes of Zbigniew Brzezinski for the build-up of the jihadi world. He has more loyalty to Poland than America. His hatred of Russia clouds his thinking.


?? outing them as what? there no law against being a radical

Who said anything about it being illegal to be a radical? I was referring to moderate Muslims exposing the nefarious agenda of radical political Islamists who's end-goal is the replacement of the US Constitution with sharia. According to these radical Islamists, these moderate Muslims who are loyal Americans, deserved to die because they are exposing them.

Are we not all obligated to protect our Constitution? Wouldn't a group who believes the Constitution needs to be replaced, by force if necessary...be considered treasonous??

[ElyaKatz]

But God does not require obedience...

Please cite chapter and verse in the Hebrew Bible (not the Old Testament; the Tanach) which states that G-d does not require obedience....

[YumYum]

Please cite chapter and verse in the Hebrew Bible (not the Old Testament; the Tanach) which states that G-d does not require obedience....

Do you speak Yiddish?

[ElyaKatz]

Do you speak Yiddish?

Let me make myself clear. There is no need, nor much benefit, to posting the Tanach in Hebrew. The JPS, Artscroll, Feldheim's Tanachim are works by translators fluent in Hebrew, Aramaic and English. They are available in either English, or a Hebrew/Aramaic with English translation on the opposing page. The Christian Old Testament is mistranslated in crucial spots. It's not the same book. I don't recognize it's authority.

I understand, read, and speak Hebrew. My Yiddish is negligible. I hope to remedy the situation at some point in the future however.

[ElyaKatz]

Your G-d gave you the land 3,000 years ago. What a price mankind has had to pay, and is going to pay, for a small area of desert. Zionist care for no one, not even themselves, when it comes to the settling of Israel. They use whatever force is necessary to achieve their goals. They follow the example of your G-d in killing innocent people. Your G-d shows his thirst for blood in the 1st Book of Samuel. We read in Chapter 15, verses 1 through 3: “Samuel said to Saul, ‘I am the man whom Yahweh sent to anoint you king over his people, over Israel, so now listen to the words of Yahweh. Thus speaks Yahweh Sabaoth, “I will repay what Amalek did to Israel when they opposed them on the road by which they came up out of Egypt. Now, go and strike down Amalek; put him under the ban with all that he possesses. Do not spare him, but kill man and woman, babe and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey”.’” Yes, even little babies that were nursing were murdered.

What I don’t get? When will this genocide end?

These passages are very difficult for me as well. Excellent question. I'm not going to get back to you on it right away, but I am filing it away for further research. I am someone interested in politics and history, particularly as related to the Jewish people. I am no scholar on Tanach. I did read a bit on these passages from the Midrash Rabbah yesterday, as you piqued my curiosity. I have more study and questions myself that I will pursue before answering you directly.

However, I don't agree that Israel applies this principle. Modern Israel is a secular state with mostly secular laws which are more in line with current Western thinking.

Re the "cult" may I ask, which??

Best,

Elya

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[lester1/2jr]

Most of the aid comes in the form of coupons which give Israel the right to buy overstock military equipment. It's actually a form of government subsidy that keeps the only leg of the American economy propped up...the arms industry.

again, you cannot possibly be a ron paul supporter if you support that kind of "propping up"

OUR taxpayer dollarts are being used, that's the bottom line.


Are we not all obligated to protect our Constitution? Wouldn't a group who believes the Constitution needs to be replaced, by force if necessary...be considered treasonous??

you'd make a great commie

[ElyaKatz]

Please elaborate on the discrepancies contained in the Christian Old Testament...

You can find an exhaustive comparative study of those discrepancies in "Let's Get Biblical" by Rabbi Tovia Singer.

[ElyaKatz]

again, you cannot possibly be a ron paul supporter if you support that kind of "propping up"

OUR taxpayer dollarts are being used, that's the bottom line.



you'd make a great commie

I made it clear I don't support the system. It's obvious to me when someone almost exclusively decries foreign aid to Israel, without looking into or commenting on the same to Arab countries, what the agenda is.

[ElyaKatz]

How about if I supply the common sense and you find the passages to teach me....

Would God be a just god if he allowed a sinless person to die?

Why does God allow repentance if death is the just penalty for sin?

If you repent, why do you still die?

You are coming from a Christian perspective on the topic of sin and repentance. G-d is always and has always been willing to forgive the truly repentant sinner. His system of forgiveness, repentance and how to achieve a pure and close relationship with Him has never changed, and has never been open only to Jews.

[ElyaKatz]

The covenant only applies to descendants of Abraham. This is not me telling Jews anything it is reading what is written.
It is you coming up with your own definition of who is entitled to the inheritance of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You are free to do so, but gentile authority in such matters is non-existent.


All of this is irrelevant to this conversation because Jews do not define themselves by heredity which is the only thing relevant to the covenant.
Not true. If you look into Jewish thinking on the matter, from Jewish sources, you will find that family lineage plays an important role. However, family lineage is not, nor has it ever been the only consideration.


So in your view are gentiles part of the covenant with Abraham and his descendants?We are defining our terms differently, so there is no way to proceed with the discussion.


Very arrogant of you to presume to know and comprehend better than a gentile. Descendants of Abraham are not endowed with any special abilities, they are recipients of special love from God.
You can try to redefine according to your own inaccurate readings, what the terms of G-d's covenant with the Children of Israel is from now until the end of time, but it doesn't change a thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ElyaKatz

"In the end, it will be a nation for all of twelve tribes, and when that happens, we will all know for sure that Messiah ben David has arrived on the scene."


I find it interesting you can acknowledge this and still claim the hand of the Almighty is at work.

The hand of the Almighty is always at work.

I don't think the current State of Israel is the fulfillment of prophecy. However, it might be the beginning of that fulfillment. In any case, there are so many miracles surrounding the re-birth of Israel, it's obvious to me that the Almighty is still the Boss, and allowed Israel to be reborn in the manner in which it was. There is still more to unfold.

[lester1/2jr]

is one of the commandments is "thou shall not steal" how can god "give" the land of canaan to the israelites?

[Dr.3D]

is one of the commandments is "thou shall not steal" how can god "give" the land of canaan to the israelites?

The land originally and still belongs to God and is His to give to whomever he pleases.

[ElyaKatz]

BS"D


The land originally and still belongs to God and is His to give to whomever he pleases.

Good to hear from you again Dr.3D. Yes, this is the Jewish understanding. We have been doing much repenting over the last 2000 years, and now many believe it is time to make returning to Eretz Israel, wherever it is in our power to do so, a part of our "teshuvah"...poorly translated into English as repentance.

I thought I'd share with you, Dr.3D, some wonderful news I just found.

Triplets for Father Who Lost Three Sons to Terrorism (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133795)

I closely followed the events surrounding the Shabo and the Hatuel tragedies, as well as the Sbarro Pizzeria bombing, and most of the bus bombings that occurred during those terrible years. It's no coincidence that HKB"H has chosen to bless Boaz Shabo (look how European he looks!) with triplets. There are no coincidences in the lives of those who love Him.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[ElyaKatz]

And why is it that you die? I missed you actually addressing the questions.

I'm not interested in getting into a theological debate right now, particularly on this thread. It's off topic. If you read the base post of this thread, I reserve the right to not reply to off-topic posts. I also reserve the right to be inconsistent on that count.

In order for you to understand the Jewish perspective on the larger questions of sin, death and how to reconcile oneself to G-d, it would require months of careful Biblical study on your part, and years of follow-up in order to get de-programmed from the Christian point-of-view. One is never really done studying, eh?

If you are interested in pursuing the topic on your own, I recommend Outreach Judaism (http://www.outreachjudaism.org/). R' Singer does some excellent work, and is sympathetic to gentiles, actually very concerned that gentiles learn how to have a pure relationship with G-d. He understands Christianity inside and out, backward and forwards. I've studied Christianity for over 40 years, so I understand it fairly well too, but not nearly as much as R' Singer. He's a true scholar, both within Judaism and re Christianity.

I'm not in the market. I'm very, very happy living as a Jew. For the sake of scholarship alone, he's worth reading and listening to. His mp3 files are free. He also has a book which is being updated and will be ready in about a month called "Let's Get Bibical". Right now they can't be ordered.

[ElyaKatz]

Please explain the covenant to me citing the Torah. I will be waiting for you to explain how the covenant applies to anyone outside of the descendants of Abraham. I await enlightenment...signals retreat. which is what always happens as soon as the word Hebrew, the covenant of Abraham, or race is mentioned.
No. I am utterly and completely disinterested in getting off on any more tangents on this thread than what is already here. This is a debate about how to determine who is a Palestinian, not who is a Jew, the covenant of Abraham etc.


Lacking enlightenment I will have to accept my so called inaccurate readings as true. I am surprised here. You have miles of citations when it comes to international law but are unable to authoritatively cite scripture where the covenant of Abraham applies to gentiles. Isn't this supposed to be an area where the Jewish people are experts?
If you are reading the Old Testament thinking it is true to the Hebrew Scriptures, then yes, you are missing out. I am not going to judge you re whether you are enlightened or not. I don't know you enough to make that determination.

I think you are exaggerating re "miles of citations" but thanks for the compliment anyway. I do like to back my claims with sources. Re being surprised re my lack of citations of Scripture, I suggest you buy yourself a JPS or Artscroll Tanach and look it over, make your own comparisons. They're not expensive and it might help you out. I just don't want to take the time, and it really is not the topic of the thread.


I had no idea the influence of money and illegal immigration were considered miraculous works nowadays.
Ahhh. I didn't say "miraculous". We are not to wait for miracles. We are to act, and then maybe we will merit a miracle. There, a little of the Jewish perspective on miracles.

I did say that Israel is probably a work of the Almighty. In fact, I think that is self-evident. There were miracles that many reported, on both sides of the various battles however. So, maybe the Jewish people were doing some things right after all.

You like to put words in my mouth I noticed.

[YumYum]

Are you for Israel first and America second? Are you a member of AIPAC? Do you think that Palestinians are "beast walking on two legs"? Are you aware that Jewish groups are monitoring web sites such as this one under a government program called "Know Thy Enemy"? Why doesn't Israel admit to having nuclear weapons? According to Samuel Friedman, in an article in USA Today, he said that the Palestinians are only allowed 5 gallons of water a day per person. Do you think that it is a fair way to treat humans? Why do you portray all Palestinians as fizehnishes? Have you studied the Torah? Why would a Judist refuse to eat food that was cooked by a gentile? Does the Torah teach racism? Why does the Rabbinical Prayer state: "..and G-d, thank you for not making me a tree, or a rock, or a plant, but most of all G-d, thank you for not making me a Gentile woman."? Why won't you give the Palestinians all of the West Bank and their half of Jerusalem? Why do you make them live like animals in refugee camps? Would your group, AIPAC, force my country to go to war with Iran, and draft me so that I can die in a war I don't want to fight in?

So many questions.....

[lester1/2jr]

I made it clear I don't support the system. It's obvious to me when someone almost exclusively decries foreign aid to Israel, without looking into or commenting on the same to Arab countries, what the agenda is.

our aid to arab countires is ONLY because of our aid to israel. the camp david accords are an example of that. we give 2 billion to egypt and israel so that egypt won't attack israel.

it's the same with the other countries. it's why I can't invest in iran directly. because of israels security

[ElyaKatz]

Are you for Israel first and America second?...So many questions.....

YumYum, your questions are not really questions, but statements in the form of questions. So, since you've already answered your "questions" to your satisfaction, I'm not going to take precious time out of my day to bother. Re my personal beliefs, who I am, my motivations for posting, I've been very transparent about myself in several other posts. You are free to read them if you'd like.

Re being monitored, I think it's ridiculous for folks to post their personal, religious or political beliefs, and then turn around and get paranoid because some group is allegedly monitoring them. If you're such a privacy freak, then don't post what you think on a public forum, or anywhere on the internet, because it is not private at all.

Mankind got along for how long without posting on the internet. It's purely optional.

If I was here to monitor anyone, I would lurk, not post.

[ElyaKatz]

our aid to arab countires is ONLY because of our aid to israel. the camp david accords are an example of that. we give 2 billion to egypt and israel so that egypt won't attack israel.

it's the same with the other countries. it's why I can't invest in iran directly. because of israels security

I've made an ironclad case for the Jewish people's legal and historical right to live in what used to be called Western Palestine in their own sovereign, reconstituted nation. Whether or not the US government gives them foreign aid is obviously the choice of the US government. No one is twisting their arm.

I happen to not agree with the US government giving foreign aid to anyone. However, I don't blame Israel because a bunch of rabid dictators want to take the focus off their own tyrannical regimes and place the blame on the Jews. That's blaming the victim. Scapegoating the Jews and blaming the victim are tired old games.

[YumYum]

YumYum, your questions are not really questions, but statements in the form of questions. So, since you've already answered your "questions" to your satisfaction, I'm not going to take precious time out of my day to bother. Re my personal beliefs, who I am, my motivations for posting, I've been very transparent about myself in several other posts. You are free to read them if you'd like.

Re being monitored, I think it's ridiculous for folks to post their personal, religious or political beliefs, and then turn around and get paranoid because some group is allegedly monitoring them. If you're such a privacy freak, then don't post what you think on a public forum, or anywhere on the internet, because it is not private at all.

Mankind got along for how long without posting on the internet. It's purely optional.

If I was here to monitor anyone, I would lurk, not post.


I didn't expect you to answer my questions, because I was making a point. These are not my questions but the questions of millions of people who do not accept your case for the oppression of the Palestinian people. You argue that your G-d gave you the land; that gives the impression that you are in a favorable position with Him. But your G-d has also repeatedly allowed millions of Jews for the last 2000 years to suffer and be tortured while His back was turned against you. That is what you don't get. Your G-d has abandoned you. My proof is when Israel did well in the eyes of G-d they prospered and got along with their neighbors. When they did not have G-d's favor they suffered and continually battled with others; just as they are doing now. They are now suffering because they do not wait for G-d's forgiveness and allow Him to restore them to their land by peaceful means, but they have taken the land of Palestine by force and resorted to the vilest type of violence and genocide; all in His name. Zionism is a disease and it will bring the end of mankind. Hitler tried the same thing that the Zionists want to accomplish; occupy and oppress other people, and he was brought to ruin. Why would you want to promote an agenda that angers the world and stirs up anti-Semitism? They say; we say, and I say "Never Again!", but how will we stop it this time? The whole world is turning on innocent Jewish people because of the actions of so few. You have been an edel mensch with the people on this forum, which is to your credit. I am not attacking you. But the problems in the Middle East have become complex and it is going to take more than a group of grosser philisophes to solve this mess. It is also going to take you and your Zionist friends to meet the Palestinians half way by giving them back the West Bank and their portion of Jerusalem, and by giving them their sovereignty as a nation.

[lester1/2jr]

I've made an ironclad case

lol I don't think you can just state that. No, you haven't made any such case


Whether or not the US government gives them foreign aid is obviously the choice of the US government.

then it's up to israel to refuse that aid, if not they have to use OUR rules not their own religous edicts. sorry, that's how it works


I don't blame Israel because a bunch of rabid dictators want to take the focus off their own tyrannical regimes and place the blame on the Jews.

you have it entirely backwards as usual. the regimes are tapping into their peoples hatred of israel and us foreign policy, not the other way around.

al queda doesn't inform people about the israeli-palestinian conflict, they recruit off of it. same with the dictators

[purplechoe]

The land originally and still belongs to God and is His to give to whomever he pleases.

I thought that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was supped to be the crazy one? Looks like Dr. 3D is a religious fanatic!

God is truth, the rest (religion) is just Santa Clause!

[Dr.3D]

I thought that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was supped to be the crazy one? Looks like Dr. 3D is a religious fanatic!

God is truth, the rest (religion) is just Santa Clause!

Your truth or mine?

[WClint]

In regards to it I take a neutral position, quite frankly it should be none of our concern/ I do have a problem with neocons and Israeli supremacists who try to make it our problem.

If we stopped giving aid to Israel and the Muslims, Israel would actually be better off (as the Muslim states get more money). This would free Israel to do what it wants, it would than not only be completely responsible for its own actions but also not be restricted (IE it wouldn't have to get the green light from Washington to Bomb Iran). The fact of the matter is a foreign policy of intervention foreign policy is the good for all parties. The fact that Israel used white phosphorous on the Palestinians I couldn't give two shits.

Its when neocons argue that the US should be the ones to bomb Iran because apparantly the rationale for not would some how magically change.



Two senior Republican senators say the United States, and not Israel, should attack Iran if military action becomes "necessary."

They also say a simple strike at the country's nuclear capability wouldn't be enough -- the US would have to launch an "all-or-nothing" war against Iran with the aim of crippling the country's military capabilities.

"I think an Israeli attack on Iran is a nightmare for the world, because it will rally the Arab world around Iran and they're not aligned now. It's too much pressure to put on Israel," Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) told Fox News' Chris Wallace.

He continued: "If the sanctions fail, and Iran's going down the road to get a nuclear weapon, any Sunni Arab state that could, would want a nuclear weapon. Israel will be more imperiled. The world will change dramatically for the worst. Military action should be the last resort anyone looks at, and I would rather our allies and us take military action if it's necessary."

But Graham doesn't think an attack should be limited to airstrikes on Iran's nuclear facilities. "If we use military action against Iran, we should not only go after their nuclear facilities. We should destroy their ability to make conventional war. They should have no planes that can fly and no ships that can float," said Graham.

http://rawstory.com/2009/10/attack-iran-before-israel/

[Dr.3D]

In regards to it I take a neutral position, quite frankly it should be none of our concern/ I do have a problem with neocons and Israeli supremacists who try to make it our problem.

If we stopped giving aid to Israel and the Muslims, Israel would actually be better off (as the Muslim states get more money). This would free Israel to do what it wants, it would than not only be completely responsible for its own actions but also not be restricted (IE it wouldnt have to get the green light from Washington to Bomb Iran). The fact of the matter is a foreign policy of intervention foreign policy is the good for all parties..

Shouldn't that be nonintervention?

[WClint]

Shouldn't that be nonintervention?

Yeah

[revolutionisnow]

The land originally and still belongs to God and is His to give to whomever he pleases.

Ever able to find a quote where he gives the land to "jews"?

[Dr.3D]

Ever able to find a quote where he gives the land to "jews"?



Genesis 13:12-15 Abram settled in the land of Canaan, while Lot settled among the cities of the Plain and moved his tent as far as Sodom. 13 Now the people of Sodom were wicked, great sinners against the LORD. 14 The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, "Raise your eyes now, and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; 15 for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever.
Highlighted emphasis is mine.

The following is quoted from Strong's Dictionary:

Abram (<087> Meaning: 'exalted father,' the original name of Abraham) was later renamed to Abraham(<085> Meaning: 'exalted father,' the father of the Jewish nation).

[revolutionisnow]

That's giving the land to a bloodline, not people of a religion. Abraham was a Hebrew, not a "jew". Many Arabs are descendants of Ishmael, so that would mean the land is given to them also. It also means that Christians, Buddhists, etc also have a right to the land, as long as they are descendants of Abraham. As far as jews and Judahites, well jews were the ENEMIES of the Judahites. So were the Canaanites.

2 Kings 16
1 In the seventeenth year of Pekah the son of Remaliah Ahaz the son of Jotham king of Judah began to reign. 2 Twenty years old was Ahaz when he began to reign, and reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem, and did not that which was right in the sight of the LORD his God, like David his father. 3 But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel. 4 And he sacrificed and burnt incense in the high places, and on the hills, and under every green tree.

5 Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him. 6 At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.

[ElyaKatz]

Highlighted emphasis is mine.

The following is quoted from Strong's Dictionary:

You'll go around in circles with him. There is no point.

There's a good chance our esteemed friend revolutionisnow does not understand Hebrew/Aramaic, so he will not be able to look into the original text of the Chumash, which would help him more clearly understand the various nuances there. He obviously also rejects the lineage of Ruth and Joseph as they married women who were not born into Judaism. And it is not clear to revolutionisnow that the tribe of Judah, Levi and Benjamin, which are the only tribes left as identifiable (since the Northern Kingdom was dispersed by the Assyrians) are also children of Jacob/Israel. He's all stuck on the Anglicized version of Judah (Jew).

I also do not detect any understanding of how carefully the 3 remaining tribes have been preserved with the rise in importance of the Bais Din (Jewish legal court with 3 judges) after the destruction of Jerusalem, facilitated by the tireless work of the Gaon Yochanan ben Zakkai and his colleagues. Israel apparently must remain fossilized in time in order for him to recognize it's current validity as a people/nation/religion. The Bais Din monitors Jewish life at all important junctures. Until recently, the Bais Din had real legal authority over the Jewish people. Even now, the Bais Din is the central authority of authentic Jewish life. Besides being in control of documenting the bris milah ceremony, marriages, divorces and deaths, many Torah observant Jews prefer to take their legal questions to a Bais Din rather than a secular court, and abide by its authority in civil matters.

The Torah would be looked at as the Jewish people's constitution. The Oral Torah is then comparable to all subsequent laws which were legislated by our representatives since the drafting of our Constitution. They must be built on the Torah, just as the laws of America must all be built on and agree with the US Constitution and the various state constitutions. (would that it were true)

[ElyaKatz]

That's giving the land to a bloodline, not people of a religion. Abraham was a Hebrew, not a "jew". Many Arabs are descendants of Ishmael, so that would mean the land is given to them also. It also means that Christians, Buddhists, etc also have a right to the land, as long as they are descendants of Abraham. As far as jews and Judahites, well jews were the ENEMIES of the Judahites. So were the Canaanites

In the Torah, it clearly states that Ishmael will have another blessing from HKB"H, but it is not the Land. That is why he was sent away....he was troubling Yitzchak, who was an heir to the covenant which gives the Land to Abraham's descendants.

Being the "correct" lineage is not all that is required to be a part of Abraham's covenant. Abraham was blessed because he obeyed, and no less than that is required of any of his descendants if they wish to be a part of his inheritance. Esau sold his birthright and he thus lost his right to this covenant.

[heavenlyboy34]

Interesting thread. I personally find the Palestinian claim to the land more historically accurate than the Jews' claim, simply based on the diaspora as described the the Torah as well as various other Hebrew scholars I've perused. JMHO, I'm no expert by any means.

[Liberty Star]

Who is Palestinian? Where is Palestine?? Who Named Palestine??? [/I]

You're not the only one asking this question, many people have been asking this question post 9/11. I have been reading about it and looks like same questions had come up after 1973 oil embrago, there seems to be a connection of Palestinians to major world and economic events and curiosity about Palestinian race increases during major economic crisis.


Short asnwer may be that people on the left side in this video are Palestinians, supposedly God's favorite race as Jesus was reportedly a Palestinian:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1578963&postcount=20

[YumYum]

You're not the only one asking this question, many people have been asking this question post 9/11. I have been reading about it and looks like same questions had come up after 1973 oil embrago, there seems to be a connection of Palestinians to major world and economic events and curiosity about Palestinian race increases during major economic crisis.


Short asnwer may be that people on the left side in this video are Palestinians, supposedly God's favorite race as Jesus was reportedly a Palestinian:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1578963&postcount=20

That is some very telling information you have attached. I could never understand how some of the people who were in Hitler's concentration camps, came out, and then went to Palestine, and with British tanks and machine guns, slaughtered innocent people who could only defend themselves with muskets and stones. And they say that "God is on their side."

[Liberty Star]

That is some very telling information you have attached. I could never understand how some of the people who were in Hitler's concentration camps, came out, and then went to Palestine, and with British tanks and machine guns, slaughtered innocent people who could only defend themselves with muskets and stones. And they say that "God is on their side."


In times of fear people tend to take refuge in their Gods but certain dose of fear under the right condition also seems to create terrorists. That probably applies to both sides there with varying degrees.

[ElyaKatz]

That is some very telling information you have attached. I could never understand how some of the people who were in Hitler's concentration camps, came out, and then went to Palestine, and with British tanks and machine guns, slaughtered innocent people who could only defend themselves with muskets and stones. And they say that "God is on their side."

What history books do you read YumYum? The Brits enabled Arab terrorism, allowed Arabs to arm, while restricting or prohibiting Jewish arms (as did the Turks before them). They installed Hajj Amin Al-Husayni who helped Hitler build his killing machine (the Nazis originally only wanted to deport their Jewish population before Husayni came along) and for the most part have been on the Arab's side of things, although there was the odd Brit who sided with the Jewish people.

You might consider reading some of Dr. Francisco Gil-White's (http://www.hirhome.com/aboutus.htm) work. Dr. Gil-White originally sympathized with the Arab narrative, until he started doing research on the origins of the PLO. He is one of the more accessible historians on the net with solid credentials, but there are plenty of excellent history books out there too. You might want to look into the perspective of your own people sometime. That's not necessarily an unfair thing to do.

Was There a Massacre at Deir Yassin? (http://www.hirhome.com/israel/deir-yassin.htm)

Was Arab anti-Jewish racism in the first half of the 20th c. fundamentally different from the European variety? (http://www.hirhome.com/israel/pal_mov.htm)

Did the Zionist Jews take something away from the Arabs in British Mandate 'Palestine'? (http://www.hirhome.com/israel/pal_mov3.htm)

I take issue with Dr. Gil-Whites views on why we, as a people, have had a difficult time grasping the need for self-defense in modern times as expressed in his article, How Jewish piety sabotages Jewish self-defense (http://www.hirhome.com/israel/leaders5.htm). He's got some of it right, but some of his understandings of Jewish Law vis-a-vis self-defense only touch on the surface. But then, I don't believe he's Jewish, or if he is, he was not raised frum, so that would explain that. Jewish Law is very involved, and I'm certain many rabbis devote their entire lifetime to studying only one subject, such as self-defense. I'm no Torah scholar that's for sure. But he did leave out some important historical facts which led to Jewish helplessness, beginning in the medieval world of Europe. He would do well to incorporate some of the insights from A Place Among the Nations (http://www.amazon.com/Place-Among-Nations-Benjamin-Netanyahu/dp/0553089749/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255596187&sr=8-1) by Benjamin Netanyahu.

"Yet once the Jews were driven into exile and became a collection of dispersed communities in the medieval world, they were gradually deprived of all the conditions necessary for self-defense...Most notably in the states of medieval Germany, the Jews were stripped of the right that others had to carry weapons for self-defense, despite the fact that (or perhaps because) it was the Jews who often faced the most wanton assaults....As the doctrines of modern pacifism emerged, many Jews rushed to embrace them, pretending they could transform into a universal virtue what had always been a unique vulnerability of the Jews. That the Jews 'would not' (could not) resort to arms, that they would not 'demean' themselves by 'stooping to violence' was taken to be a clear sign of their moral superiority over other peoples who were not similarly constrained. Once leading segments of Jewish opinion in Europe had transformed Jewish weakness into a positive good, the Jewish people's chances of escaping its fate reached a new low." A Place Among the Nations pgs 362-3 by Benjamin Netanyahu.

And as for the world's difficulties with a Jewish nation that can now defend itself, no longer helpless, Mr. Netanyahu writes:

"But the inability to adjust to the reality of Jewish power is equally true for those who are sympathetic to Jewish suffering and wish to see it end. Many philo-Semites have come to appreciate the Jews as a persecuted people and therefore as a people that cannot be morally in the wrong. For one who has no power over anyone else, or even over himself, cannot be blamed for the harm that befalls others. For such sympathizers, it is no easy thing to watch the Jews become a people wielding power. Power inevitably means moral responsibility, and sometimes it means making mistakes as well. Once the Jews have an army and a state, it is all too easy to blame them for their actions -- and to look back wistfully upon the perfect morality of the defenseless Jew." A Place Among the Nations pg 398

Thanks, YumYum (love that handle...er...now I'm hungry) for the recognition of my efforts at remaining kind to my ideological opponents, even in the face of quite a few ad homs directed my way. I don't succeed in remaining as even-tempered as I'd like sometimes.

Just to let you know though, I am using my husband's email handle on this site (long story...I've written on it here somewhere). Thus, I'm a really an edel menstchette...like the mix of languages?? :D I don't know much Yiddish, but as I said, I plan on studying it. It's a beautiful language that deserves to live on. Did you know it actually has a Latin based grammar?? Fascinating.

Also, I don't believe I've ever used the term "social Zionism". Maybe "Socialist Zionism", aka Labor Zionism. I don't identify in the least with Labor Zionism, or the leaders of Labor Zionism.

Had I lived in the days of the Yishuv, I would have identified with Revisionist Zionism or Mizrachi Zionism. My hashkafah is somewhere between Religious Zionism and Chareidi yiddishkeit. I seem to appreciate Breslev views re the State of Israel the most. Have you ever read the teachings of R' Lazer Brody (http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/)? Amazing guy. I've heard great things about the book Garden of Emunah (http://www.breslev.co.il/store/books/spirituality_and_faith/the_garden_of_emuna.aspx?id=2433&language=english) and have it on my book wishlist.

Did you know, YumYum, that according to Torah Judaism (I don't know which tradition you come from) badmouthing the Arabs as a people is wrong. Like how the Imams in Jerusalem for instance are always referring to Jews as "the sons of monkeys and pigs" in their sermons. We can't do that sort of thing. It's a big sin. They are our cousins and as such, we are not allowed to say nasty things about them. No ad homs in other words. In fact, sinning against goyim is a bigger hillul HaShem then sinning against a Jew...contrary to popular myth among antisemitic types who like to spread lies about what is allegedly in the Talmud.

I do believe, but would have to check with my Rabbi, that we can however, discuss the wrong that the Arabs/Muslims do. HKB"H loves the sinner, but hates the sin. I really should check on that, because I'm only assuming. If you see me deleting my posts exposing the type of things that Arabs such as Hajj Amin al-Husayni have been involved in, you'll know why. ;)