Time: Why Juvenile Detention Makes Teens Worse

[emazur]

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1914837,00.html?iid=digg_share

Why? In any such setting, teens establish a predictable social hierarchy, says Tom Dishion, director of research at the Child and Family Center at the University of Oregon, who was not involved with the study. The kids who have behaved worse than others — committing robbery, for instance, vs. smoking cigarettes — earn the most credibility with their peer group, which encourages further bad behavior. "That story [about robbing someone] has a function of making that kid more interesting. He or she gets a lot of attention. [These kids] become higher in the social hierarchy."

Says Tremblay: "There is that competition of who is going to do the worst stuff — for them, it's the best stuff — like stealing the biggest or best car."

I'd say this applies to public schools as well

[torchbearer]

juvenile detention does not work as a tool of reform.
Prison does not work as a tool of reform.
Instead it has the opposite effect. It teaches deviant criminals how to be better criminals.
They learn from each other.
This was even taught in my criminal justice classes.

[torchbearer]

The have a camp for sexually "Active" pre-teens in Cordova, TN.
Most of the children sent there were sexually abused by an adult and have acted out that "knowledge" on other pre-teens.
They send all these kids to the same camp so they can basically molest each other.
It is a non-profit grant scam.

[SimpleName]

This is no surprise. I'm not exactly sure how you fix the problem. I've thought about this and discussed it with a few people before. You can't hold them in solitary confinement because they'll just go insane. And then how much money could possibly go to rehabilitation measures? Like what about weight rooms and such? Just makes criminals stronger and more imposing when they get out. Any clue?

[tangent4ronpaul]

Maybe we should look at the public fool system, for starters. I think it's safe to say that kids that attend private schools engage in this type of activity to a much lower extent, per-capita.

Two things I keyed on in the article:
1) hyperactivity and
2) those that were more interesting were more popular

Have you noticed how we suddenly have this national crisis of ADD and ADHD? Things that have spurred a program under no child left behind to drug them into compliance? Setting aside nutritional and the rare biological causes, these kids are not being challenged and are bored out of their minds! We've got an educational system that focuses on social programming and teaching compliance - not teaching people to think for themselves and life long learning.

There has also been a movement afoot to get rid of magnet schools and gifted and talented programs. Instead, the trend has been to put everyone together, particularly those with conditions like autism or mental retardation, so they can can grow socially, then setting the pace of the class to the lowest common denominator.

In former Soviet republics, high school is 8 years (1st - 8th), at that point students have obtained an equivalent education as 12 years here. In England, the 12 year program is equivalent to 12 years here + 2 years of college. They also come out of school, uni-formally bi-lingual or better. There is also the problem of grade inflation. I remember seeing one documentary where they asked a 8th grade girl in a California public school to a simple addition problem on a blackboard. Adding 2, 2 digit numbers together. She got it wrong - BADLY wrong! She proudly said that she planned to be a doctor... (they didn't tell her she had gotten it wrong). In Baltimore, 50% of black kids don't graduate HS, but Baltimore also has an interesting program for high risk youth. This brings up the cost of public schools and student to teacher ratios.

The program has been going on for about 10 years, and unfortunately only takes in a small number of kids every year. Kids expected to deal drugs, join street gangs, engage in crime, or already there. Then they do something incredibly politically incorrect - ship um off to Kenya! For the same cost as babysitting a kid in the public fool system for 7-8 hours a day for 8 months, they are able to buy them an international, round trip airline ticket, provide them with room and board 24x7 and a very low student to teacher ratio giving them lots of individual attention for a year. Yeah - same cost! For a group of students, 100% of which were expected to drop out, they come back and 80-90% of them continue on to college. One scored in the top 1% in the country in AP tests for Latin!

Anyone see a problem here?

They do take some things from them - no getto blasters / rap music, some restrictions on clothing, they walk into town once a week for a movie... Not quite military school, but more intellectually challenging them and removing distractions. There was also a culture shock / attitude adjustment aspect to this, like the one kid who said something clicked in his head when he passed a local kid begging in the street so he could eat that day and who couldn't afford shoes. He looked down at his nike's and realized just how privileged he was.

As to the interesting ones being popular, Personally, I went to an alternative HS - one that was experiential based. It was like un-schooling, or homeschooling where the kid follows their interests rather than a purchased curriculum. lower student to teacher ratio, and we relied a lot on apprenticeships and trips. we built and staffed (kids signed up to run) a school lunch program, built a recording studio and a greenhouse. We had kids apprenticing with potters, veterinarians (she became one), a peace corp training facility up the road. One went to South America by herself to work on digs. She's still traveling the world working on digs. We had a girl that was interested in river rafting and making outdoor gear. She's now a river rat. There was only one required class, learning to learn, after that students, teachers and members of the community were free to come in and teach and you took what you wanted. There were no grades, just evaluations. The 3 R's were incorporated into everything. Sometimes there were optional activities like orienteering or rope courses. The sports budget was used for trips and things like volleyballs, cross country ski's, ice skated, rock climbing equipment could be checked out and used whenever. A normal trip would involve studying and planning where we would be headed, presenting reports then doing it. 2 usual ones were a Mexican work trip where we would go down and fix up a school for a week then play at the beach for a week with lots of side stuff up and back. Another was kayaking the boundary waters. One other thing - we had something called governance, one person, one vote - so the students ran the school, within the limits that the school district would let us. In short, we were all doing something different and all interesting.

Given the problems mentioned - stealing cars - maybe hook them up with an auto mechanic. Is there a race track nearby? there is a nationwide program each summer where teens are taught driving skills - pushing their cars to the point of going out of control and how to regain control of them. Figure out where the attraction is, and see if you can direct them into something cool. If it's the rush, maybe buy um a skateboard or snowboard and push that way - gently... enable a better solution.

In every school, there is a small clique that likes to blow stuff up, but instead of them doing it on their own, hook them up with a chem teacher or pyrotechnician that will teach them some chemistry, physics and safety along the way. Put their focus on fireworks and away from primary explosives You're most likely to get a science student back.

Shoplifter - hook them up with a security person for a chain store. maybe some police ride along and a brief visit to a holding cell - just to try it out.

Drugs - depending on state and legal status - like California, encourage them to work with someone growing pot - you might get a horticulturist back, or an apprenticeship in a head shop, but make sure part of the deal is that they learn the business aspects - you might end up with a small business owner. Have them work in a drug rehab center.

It's interesting that Holland recently closed 6 prisons. Prison "cells" in Holland are more like a small hotel or dorm room. It's not illegal to try to escape there, but it is illegal to hurt someone in the process.

-t

[tangent4ronpaul]

blimp

[tangent4ronpaul]

blimp

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

I think we should fix what makes people want to do bad things to others.

[tangent4ronpaul]

What would that be? - poverty or greed? desire for acceptance? adrenalin rush? boredom? trying to feed a habit where what you NEED is massively and artificially inflated in price?

-t

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

What would that be? - poverty or greed? desire for acceptance? adrenalin rush? boredom? trying to feed a habit where what you NEED is massively and artificially inflated in price?

-t

there's barely anything for kids to do i know where i live all the arcades, bowling alleys, and skateparks were replaced with like retirement homes and rite aids.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Yeah - says something for socialist Canada where ice rinks, etc. are gvmt paid for and free... they don't have these problems.

[Conza88]

The have a camp for sexually "Active" pre-teens in Cordova, TN.
Most of the children sent there were sexually abused by an adult and have acted out that "knowledge" on other pre-teens.
They send all these kids to the same camp so they can basically molest each other.
It is a non-profit grant scam.

Optatron goes annually.

[tangent4ronpaul]

optatron - not finding a definition...

-t

[Conza88]

optatron - not finding a definition...

-t

Lucky!

Try schmollerite. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=schmollerite) :)

[tangent4ronpaul]

Lucky!

Try schmollerite. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=schmollerite) :)

Interesting... who the hell are you again?

-t

[Working Poor]

There is a book out that is about this very subject written by a woman who want to help these kids here is a link to a review I wrote on this book: Behavior and Diet (http://splendra49.blogspot.com/2006/08/food-and-behavior.html)

[pinkmandy]

Maybe we should look at the public fool system, for starters. I think it's safe to say that kids that attend private schools engage in this type of activity to a much lower extent, per-capita.

Two things I keyed on in the article:
1) hyperactivity and
2) those that were more interesting were more popular

Have you noticed how we suddenly have this national crisis of ADD and ADHD? Things that have spurred a program under no child left behind to drug them into compliance? Setting aside nutritional and the rare biological causes, these kids are not being challenged and are bored out of their minds! We've got an educational system that focuses on social programming and teaching compliance - not teaching people to think for themselves and life long learning.

There has also been a movement afoot to get rid of magnet schools and gifted and talented programs. Instead, the trend has been to put everyone together, particularly those with conditions like autism or mental retardation, so they can can grow socially, then setting the pace of the class to the lowest common denominator.

In former Soviet republics, high school is 8 years (1st - 8th), at that point students have obtained an equivalent education as 12 years here. In England, the 12 year program is equivalent to 12 years here + 2 years of college. They also come out of school, uni-formally bi-lingual or better. There is also the problem of grade inflation. I remember seeing one documentary where they asked a 8th grade girl in a California public school to a simple addition problem on a blackboard. Adding 2, 2 digit numbers together. She got it wrong - BADLY wrong! She proudly said that she planned to be a doctor... (they didn't tell her she had gotten it wrong). In Baltimore, 50% of black kids don't graduate HS, but Baltimore also has an interesting program for high risk youth. This brings up the cost of public schools and student to teacher ratios.

The program has been going on for about 10 years, and unfortunately only takes in a small number of kids every year. Kids expected to deal drugs, join street gangs, engage in crime, or already there. Then they do something incredibly politically incorrect - ship um off to Kenya! For the same cost as babysitting a kid in the public fool system for 7-8 hours a day for 8 months, they are able to buy them an international, round trip airline ticket, provide them with room and board 24x7 and a very low student to teacher ratio giving them lots of individual attention for a year. Yeah - same cost! For a group of students, 100% of which were expected to drop out, they come back and 80-90% of them continue on to college. One scored in the top 1% in the country in AP tests for Latin!

Anyone see a problem here?

They do take some things from them - no getto blasters / rap music, some restrictions on clothing, they walk into town once a week for a movie... Not quite military school, but more intellectually challenging them and removing distractions. There was also a culture shock / attitude adjustment aspect to this, like the one kid who said something clicked in his head when he passed a local kid begging in the street so he could eat that day and who couldn't afford shoes. He looked down at his nike's and realized just how privileged he was.

As to the interesting ones being popular, Personally, I went to an alternative HS - one that was experiential based. It was like un-schooling, or homeschooling where the kid follows their interests rather than a purchased curriculum. lower student to teacher ratio, and we relied a lot on apprenticeships and trips. we built and staffed (kids signed up to run) a school lunch program, built a recording studio and a greenhouse. We had kids apprenticing with potters, veterinarians (she became one), a peace corp training facility up the road. One went to South America by herself to work on digs. She's still traveling the world working on digs. We had a girl that was interested in river rafting and making outdoor gear. She's now a river rat. There was only one required class, learning to learn, after that students, teachers and members of the community were free to come in and teach and you took what you wanted. There were no grades, just evaluations. The 3 R's were incorporated into everything. Sometimes there were optional activities like orienteering or rope courses. The sports budget was used for trips and things like volleyballs, cross country ski's, ice skated, rock climbing equipment could be checked out and used whenever. A normal trip would involve studying and planning where we would be headed, presenting reports then doing it. 2 usual ones were a Mexican work trip where we would go down and fix up a school for a week then play at the beach for a week with lots of side stuff up and back. Another was kayaking the boundary waters. One other thing - we had something called governance, one person, one vote - so the students ran the school, within the limits that the school district would let us. In short, we were all doing something different and all interesting.

Given the problems mentioned - stealing cars - maybe hook them up with an auto mechanic. Is there a race track nearby? there is a nationwide program each summer where teens are taught driving skills - pushing their cars to the point of going out of control and how to regain control of them. Figure out where the attraction is, and see if you can direct them into something cool. If it's the rush, maybe buy um a skateboard or snowboard and push that way - gently... enable a better solution.

In every school, there is a small clique that likes to blow stuff up, but instead of them doing it on their own, hook them up with a chem teacher or pyrotechnician that will teach them some chemistry, physics and safety along the way. Put their focus on fireworks and away from primary explosives You're most likely to get a science student back.

Shoplifter - hook them up with a security person for a chain store. maybe some police ride along and a brief visit to a holding cell - just to try it out.

Drugs - depending on state and legal status - like California, encourage them to work with someone growing pot - you might get a horticulturist back, or an apprenticeship in a head shop, but make sure part of the deal is that they learn the business aspects - you might end up with a small business owner. Have them work in a drug rehab center.

It's interesting that Holland recently closed 6 prisons. Prison "cells" in Holland are more like a small hotel or dorm room. It's not illegal to try to escape there, but it is illegal to hurt someone in the process.

-t

Great post. *claps*

Can you imagine the potential of an entire country if every child had the opportunity to pursue his/her own personal interests and was encouraged to do so and take it to the max instead of what we have now? Can you imagine if the US led the way and did this? If the idea spread worldwide? Even if a few states would take education back from the Fed's grasp and tried this the effects could be amazing.

I homeschool but I'd send all of my children to such a school if one existed in the area and would be happy to donate time and money to help make it work. I imagine there are many community members who would also enjoy volunteering to teach kids about their various professions, skills, etc.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Great post. *claps*

Can you imagine the potential of an entire country if every child had the opportunity to pursue his/her own personal interests and was encouraged to do so and take it to the max instead of what we have now? Can you imagine if the US led the way and did this? If the idea spread worldwide? Even if a few states would take education back from the Fed's grasp and tried this the effects could be amazing.

I homeschool but I'd send all of my children to such a school if one existed in the area and would be happy to donate time and money to help make it work. I imagine there are many community members who would also enjoy volunteering to teach kids about their various professions, skills, etc.

There might be one near you. Remember, though, every school is different!

National Coalition of Alternative Community Schools (Homeschools fall under their umbrella too)
http://www.ncacs.org/ncacs.htm

Directory (Only ones with online presence - they have a paper directory for $15)
http://ncacs.org/links_school.htm

Resources:
http://www.ncacs.org/resources.htm

Association for Experiential Education:
http://www.aee.org/

Homeschool:
http://www.homeschoolportal.com/olddirectory/
http://www.thehomeschooldirectory.org/

here are some gvmt (public) alternative programs - they can be good or traditional and a bit more flexible. There was a move some years back to discredit alternative education by setting up "alternative" schools and sending all the troublemakers to them. In short, public fool system babysitting service on steroids. Then again, some are truly innovative.

http://commweb.fcps.edu/directory/directory.cfm?level=Alternative

If I didn't remember your location correctly, just google alternative school <your location> There is usually a government school directory that lists them.

You can also look at home school associations where people get together and are able to boost teaching capabilities. Also sometimes universities have programs, like a single class for homeschoolers during the summer.

You might also look into montessori schools:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_method

quaker schools are also supposed to have much in common with experiential education:
http://www.friendscouncil.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Quaker_schools


-t

[Standing Like A Rock]

Throughout history, criminals became slaves. Of course that isn't allowed today...

[torchbearer]

Throughout history, criminals became slaves. Of course that isn't allowed today...
ever heard of work release?
our factories in louisiana is slowly replacing its work force with "prison labor".
half of tangent rails work force is now "work-release". meaning, you work as a slave long enough, and we let you out with good behavior.
The state makes money off of each person.

edit- 50% of our prison population is non-violent drug offenders.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Hay pinkmandy - message 18...

-t

[pinkmandy]

Hay pinkmandy - message 18...

-t

Ah, thanks. I've checked before. Small rural area, not a lot of choice that is also affordable (for 3 kids). We do have a decent Montessori that goes through elementary school but it's very expensive. We also have a Waldorf about 40 miles away but again, the cost is prohibitive and they have a high teacher turnover which is not really in line w/Waldorf.

I've been homeschooling for 8 years, it's working well enough. I hope to have my oldest apprenticing soon (a few years as he's 12 now) as well as auditing some classes at the local community college. Science, especially how things work, is his love. He's about to start kind of apprenticing w/a friend of mine who will be teaching him small engine repair.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Ah, thanks. I've checked before. Small rural area, not a lot of choice that is also affordable (for 3 kids). We do have a decent Montessori that goes through elementary school but it's very expensive. We also have a Waldorf about 40 miles away but again, the cost is prohibitive and they have a high teacher turnover which is not really in line w/Waldorf.

I've been homeschooling for 8 years, it's working well enough. I hope to have my oldest apprenticing soon (a few years as he's 12 now) as well as auditing some classes at the local community college. Science, especially how things work, is his love. He's about to start kind of apprenticing w/a friend of mine who will be teaching him small engine repair.

Science, hu?

http://homechemlab.com/
http://homechemlab.com/sources.html

I highly recommend his newsletter as the first year (which you get free with a subscription) covers cross conversion of chems so you can get a well stocked lab starting with some basic ones.

-t