Where are the Men?

[InterestedParticipant]

Suggest listening to this sermon by Paul Washer
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=840922060

[Working Poor]

I really enjoyed this sermon thank you for posting it.

[Vessol]

TLDR version?

[InterestedParticipant]

Nice quote from the sermon....


"What do you care what people think about you? If you do God’s will, God will vindicate you, either here or in heaven. And I would rather be falsely accused by men than to stand before God one day and be accused."


Audio, Video, & Transcript can be downloaded at:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=840922060

[Vessol]

So, hey, why doesn't God heal amputees?

[InterestedParticipant]

So, hey, why doesn't God heal amputees?
That's not the point of this thread.

Check out the transcript and please provide comment on that if you want.

[Sandman33]

The question is where are the good men willing to stand up and make things right. They exist, and they are actually quite many.

However they keep running into things like this:

http://glennsacks.com/blog/?p=4073

And Pelosi blocking good mens legislation like HR1207

[Bman]

Nice quote from the sermon....


"What do you care what people think about you? If you do God’s will, God will vindicate you, either here or in heaven. And I would rather be falsely accused by men than to stand before God one day and be accused."


Audio, Video, & Transcript can be downloaded at:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=840922060

I much perfer a quote from John Milton.

[literatim]

So, hey, why doesn't God heal amputees?

Please return to your bridge.

[jclay2]

The question is where are the good men willing to stand up and make things right. They exist, and they are actually quite many.

However they keep running into things like this:

http://glennsacks.com/blog/?p=4073

And Pelosi blocking good mens legislation like HR1207

Gosh that story was terrible. Especially the last line of the story where the girl listed her myspace occupation as Baby Seller.

[Kraig]

IP are you a christian or deist or something?

[InterestedParticipant]

I much perfer a quote from John Milton.
Can you please post this quote.

[InterestedParticipant]

The question is where are the good men willing to stand up and make things right. They exist, and they are actually quite many.
Yea, that's actually the point made in the sermon. The title of the sermon assumes that Men = "good men"

[Sandman33]

Gosh that story was terrible. Especially the last line of the story where the girl listed her myspace occupation as Baby Seller.


Wish I could say that similar stories aren't common today....but I cant.

[Sandman33]

please return to your bridge.

Bwahahaaa! :D

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

"What do you care what people think about you? If you do God’s will, God will vindicate you, either here or in heaven. And I would rather be falsely accused by men than to stand before God one day and be accused."

Eh, colour me skeptical of this kind of quote. It can easily be turned AGAINST us by those who will do us harm. Its just a step away from 'If God be with us, who can be against us?' It can be ex post facto justification for doing lots of evil shit in this world because 'God wills it'.

[InterestedParticipant]

IP are you a christian or deist or something?
Shortly I'll post some notes from various writings of Jacques Ellul (In the Presence of the Kingdom), as he is infinitely more wise with respect to your question than I am.

http://www.amazon.com/Presence-Kingdom-Jacques-Ellul/dp/0939443147

[Kraig]

Shortly I'll post some notes from various writings of Jacques Ellul (In the Presence of the Kingdom), as he is infinitely more wise with respect to your question than I am.

http://www.amazon.com/Presence-Kingdom-Jacques-Ellul/dp/0939443147

...but I was asking about you...

[apropos]

Eh, colour me skeptical of this kind of quote. It can easily be turned AGAINST us by those who will do us harm. Its just a step away from 'If God be with us, who can be against us?' It can be ex post facto justification for doing lots of evil shit in this world because 'God wills it'.

However, anything can be abused or corrupted. Many today justify their evil because "the people will it". Whether the people actually do or whether they don't is not always required.

[InterestedParticipant]

...but I was asking about you...
Yea, I understand, but these French philosophers do a better job of describing my belief system than I do. I thought I had posted some material earlier, and I did a search and found the following relevant threads....

Anarchy from a Christian Standpoint (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=192988)

Subversion of Christianity (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=193153)

In Ellul's, The Presence of the Kingdom, he gives an unusual answer to the question, How should a Christian conduct himself in today's society? The usual answer is either to separate ourselves from the culture as the pietists do, or to engage with and conquer the culture as the triumphalists do. Ellul proposes a third answer: we are to simply bear witness to the truth by being Christians in a fallen world, neither separating ourselves from nor immersing ourselves in the culture. Here are some relevant excerpts...


..."Resolute engagement of the world requires a dialectical and agonistic style of life. One must reject the twin pillars of spiritualization, for it neglects material realities & includes capitulation. What is first req'd is a presence.... A style of life...an attitude..a special mode of existence."

He speaks of living "in" the world, not "of" it...... "If one is necessarily in the world, he is not necessarily of it..... for thought, life, heart are not controlled by the world, and do not depend on the world, for they belong to another master."

Contrary to advocating withdrawal from the world or urging a lifeboat, Ellul challenges us to embrace and preserve the world. God alone will effect our separation in his own time. This resolute engagement requires a dialectical and agonistic style of life which remain very much in the world even as it rejects worldliness. To be in the world also requires us to understand it in both its material and spiritual aspects, a task ellul has undertaken in his sociological and theological works and which he challenges us to better. By rejecting the twin perils of spiritualization (which neglect material realities) and capitulation (which simply adopts one of the world's many different options that appears to harmonize with Christianity), the Christian plays a truly creative role and gives meaning and direction to history, which otherwise has no logic or certitude.

Authentic Christian existence trusts in the power of the HolySpirit to give our "presence" a revolution and explosive force in history.


http://www.thewords.com/articles/ellul.htm

"What constantly marked the life of Jesus was not nonviolence
but in every situation the choice not to use power. This is
infinitely different."

"The Christian should participate in social and political efforts in order to have an influence in the work, not with the hope of making a paradise (of the earth), but simply to make it more tolerable -- not to diminish the opposition between this world and the Kingdom of God, but simply to modify the opposition between the disorder of this world and the order of preservation that God wants it to have -- not to bring in the Kingdom of God, but so that the Gospel might be proclaimed in order that all men might truly hear the good news."

In general, while I've never tried to label it, I would say Ellul's framework most closely represents my own.

[pcosmar]

...but I was asking about you...

IP is a student.
He believes whatever his professor tells him,,,today.