PDA

View Full Version : Christian Right + Big Government = Sin




john_anderson_ii
09-26-2007, 11:01 PM
I have a question that may be geared more towards a theological crowd, than a libertarian crowd, but I'll ask it anyway.

It seems several individuals in the Christian Right support the war, and refuse to admit the U.S. has messed up big time. They also refuse to admit that U.S. foreign policy was at least, in some way, responsible for 9/11. They don't acknowledge that 9/11 was possible due to a failure on the part of the big government they rally around. In short, it seems like some of these Christians believe that the U.S. government with G.W. Bush at the helm is infallible.

Though they would never admit it, they believe the government is infallible for two reasons. First, any wrongdoing on the part of the government is the fault of whichever individual happens to be involved, and not the institution itself. Secondly, they support the government when it takes no responsibility for its actions, and writes a wrongdoing off as "the will of people" or some such nonsense. This goes double for the Christians who believe God speaks to George W. Bush.

Since government is an institution of men, it cannot be infallible, so believing it to be so is idolizing. They are placing a man made entity on par with God himself by refusing to believe it makes mistakes.

I realize I haven't quite thought this argument out all the way, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that many of these people who call themselves Christians are constantly breaking the 1st Commandment. Do any other Christians on this board see it that way?

jacmicwag
09-26-2007, 11:10 PM
Keep the faith - they may see the light (a second time). Some already have. Religion and politics are not a good mix but the attraction will always be there for both sides.

Corydoras
09-26-2007, 11:11 PM
Absolutely it's idolatry, it's rendering unto Caesar the obedience that belongs to God alone.

I wouldn't agree with the use of the word "infallible," because that can have certain denominational meanings that you don't intend.

DataSage
09-26-2007, 11:12 PM
Evangelicals are actually becoming more libertarian, though the crazy theocrats will always be there.

Most of the Ron Paul converts I've gotten in recent months have actually been strong religious conservatives. Trust me, they're not all sinister hypocrites.

john_anderson_ii
09-26-2007, 11:18 PM
Maybe I'm just thinking along these lines because of the Values Voter debates. I was severely disappointed about their reactions to the Iraq War, as well as their reaction to the idea that gays are human beings.




EDIT: I had omitted a few words, and the above statement meant something completely different without them.

RP4ME
09-26-2007, 11:19 PM
I have seen the light - but its a toughie not just b/c they are Christaisn but also b/c they are lied to and influenced so by MSM. Its not just the Christians BUT add in God speaks thru GB, throw in a pinch of isreal then bake and well its not pretty. Many BIG preachers who are more politicos in the pulpit brainwash them so they associate Neocon with Jesus....I am not sure if alot of teh preachers are really wolves in Christain garb or just duped ;ike teh rest of us albeit well meaning...its just like all of us who have "converted" to RP - its just takes time - slowly and carefully feed them so as not to overwhelm and many will get it.....Dont bash them over the head b/c they feel liek teh left does thsi already and so anyone who bashes them they like to place on teh Left and therefore marginalize or ignore. Just talk aboutthe issues that are important to them in the baby RP phase - abortion....immigration....NAU and tehn progress to Civil Liberties and hate speech criminlaizing theri views on God and Gays and marriage etc....

Did ya know Rick Warren (purpsoedn drive life) and supreme supplier of watered down Christainity is a member of the CFR??? Nice tool for the CFR? No? Tehy have invaded everthing! Im sure there are more "pastors" who dont disclose their membership!

hard@work
09-26-2007, 11:22 PM
I typed about 30 responses here. This is a difficult subject for me. I'll just say it's like watching a lot of sheep follow the wrong shepard. A very sorrowful and painful feeling. But there is a light deep inside that rejects the loss and says it can be reclaimed, that they can be saved.

Perhaps this Christmas when we once again sing songs of peace on earth and good will towards men... perhaps they'll actually get that going to a megachurch doesn't save your soul. I plan on doing a lot of caroling this year.

I guess that will do.

john_anderson_ii
09-26-2007, 11:33 PM
I think this is why I'm a staunch supporter of the separation of church and state. To me, it doesn't really matter if the Constitution is a divinely inspired document or not, its still a contract that establishes a man-made institution. I just can't believe that our governments have any place in His kingdom.



I wouldn't agree with the use of the word "infallible," because that can have certain denominational meanings that you don't intend.

Can you elaborate on this?

Corydoras
09-26-2007, 11:34 PM
It's also stupid of them, because the more you let the government into daily life, the more likely it will be to tell your church what to do. Once the camel's nose is in the tent, it's awfully hard to keep the camel out.
-- preacher endorses a candidate or party and tax-exempt status is taken away from the church
-- church charity does adoption deals with a state agency and gets required to put children with homosexual couples
-- hospital accepts government health plans and get required to offer birth control and morning-after pills

Corydoras
09-26-2007, 11:38 PM
Can you elaborate on this?

Infallibility has a very particular technical meaning in the Roman Catholic Church which is not the same as in non-theological speech. The Pope can say whatever he wants, but it is not infallible except under very particular circumstances; I am not Catholic but if I recall correctly, the papacy has issued only two infallible statements. The Pope himself is not infallible. And this doctrinal infallibility does NOT require obedience in terms of action; it simply says that being Catholic includes believing these things.

Corydoras
09-26-2007, 11:40 PM
I would say that the problem with the way evangelicals approach the United States is not a matter of thinking the government is infallible, but, rather, of thinking that the government requires absolute obedience.

RP4ME
09-26-2007, 11:42 PM
I would say that the problem with the way evangelicals approach the United States is not a matter of thinking the government is infallible, but, rather, of thinking that the government requires absolute obedience.

Depends on who is in charge I think dont you? They werent to fond of Cigar aficianado clinton......

john_anderson_ii
09-26-2007, 11:53 PM
Infallibility has a very particular technical meaning in the Roman Catholic Church which is not the same as in non-theological speech. The Pope can say whatever he wants, but it is not infallible except under very particular circumstances; I am not Catholic but if I recall correctly, the papacy has issued only two infallible statements. The Pope himself is not infallible. And this doctrinal infallibility does NOT require obedience in terms of action; it simply says that being Catholic includes believing these things.


Ah! The premise of Dogma (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120655/)


I would say that the problem with the way evangelicals approach the United States is not a matter of thinking the government is infallible, but, rather, of thinking that the government requires absolute obedience.

Rather, they would be subject to the absolute obedience of the government figure that preaches "values".

Corydoras
09-26-2007, 11:58 PM
Depends on who is in charge I think dont you? They werent to fond of Cigar aficianado clinton......

They didn't exactly disapprove of the adventures in Afghanistan, Somalia, and the Balkans.
:eek:

john_anderson_ii
09-27-2007, 12:55 AM
I was converted to Christianity in March of 2003. The USMC was running unopposed throughout Iraq, and I came to the realization that, in fact, there are no atheists in foxholes. As an intelligence analyst for an engineering battalion (6th ESB) I was pretty much on my own program when on assignment. My section chief, CWO-4 Metjie, had given me a copy of the Bible and suggested I read Kings and Judges for a little background on Iraq. I trusted this man, he was the kind of proverbial leader you would follow into hell and back, so I read the chapters he recommended.

While on a convoy en-route to Basra, I was manning a radio sitting next to a Navy Lieutenant, Chaplain Corson. We got to talking about Solomon and the Euphrates, and he asked me if I was a Christian. I ended up converting to Christianity about 1 meter north of where the Tigris and Euphrates converge North of Basra. My convoy took a small detour to the North of supply route Aspen to hit a water distribution point. I knelt in the sand and converted. An old military recruiting slogan states, "Not all of our Churches have pews.", and I lived it.

It was a very moving time for me, and I keep this in mind when I think about religion and the war in Iraq. I feel the urge to puke when I see self proclaimed Christians with the desire to keep military forces in this region. I'm glad we deposed Saddam, I'm glad we destroyed his regime. Now, I think we should leave this land alone. It means so many different things to so many different people, why don't we just see leave it alone.

"The legislator, being unable to appeal to either force or reason, must resort to an authority of a different order, capable of constraining without violence, and persuading without convincing... This is what has, in all ages, compelled the fathers of Nations to have recourse to Divine Intervention" -- J.J. Rousseau


This is why I refuse to accept that a withdraw of U.S. troops will destabilize Iraq. this is why I fully believe that a withdrawal of foreign presence will bring peace and prosperity to Iraq.

Corydoras
09-27-2007, 12:58 AM
Remember when God told the Israelites who were clamoring for a king that they'd regret getting what they wanted?
:rolleyes:

TheIndependent
09-27-2007, 01:05 AM
I was converted to Christianity in March of 2003. The USMC was running unopposed throughout Iraq, and I came to the realization that, in fact, there are no atheists in foxholes.

No offense, but...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14322117/
(Article on Atheists serving in our Armed Forces)

http://www.alabamaatheist.org/operationfoxholeatheists.htm
(These are only the ones that are part of that particular branch of American Atheists--an organization only a fraction of a fraction of atheists are a part of)

...and I had a personal friend--an atheist--who served valiantly in Iraq. Fact of the matter is, many of them are too intimidated to reveal themselves in the face of a 100:1+ ratio amongst Christian soldiers out of fear of being outcast. Not to say they would be, but it isn't exactly unheard of in history, either.

To deny their existence and contributions to the Armed Services is disingenuous. I'll conclude this by adding that I, myself, am an atheist with an evangelical Christian father-in-law in Iraq I love very much, worry about daily, and would like to see home as soon as possible. I harbor no ill-will toward the religious though my personal opinions differ obviously, but I and other atheists would expect the same consideration in return.

john_anderson_ii
09-27-2007, 01:15 AM
(Article on Atheists serving in our Armed Forces)


I went into Iraq an atheist, and came out a Christian. Its my personal account, nothing more and nothing less. I didn't feel alienated, nor did I feel empowered. Marines are marines, all part of the green machine, we can give our hearts to Jesus, as long as we serve the Corps. I never felt any pressure to convert to Christianity on the part of the USMC. It was a personal decision, and regardless of its outcome I was still a Sergeant of Marines, and expected to perform duties thereunto pertaining.

Never once did I witness preferential treatment given to Christians, and never once did I witness derogatory treatment given to Jews, Atheists, or Muslims. In the USMC, every man is the same and the mission given by "higher" supersedes any denomination conviction. It may make us idolizers, but it also makes us Marines. That is the core to our effectiveness.

TheIndependent
09-27-2007, 01:20 AM
I went into Iraq an atheist, and came out a Christian. Its my personal account, nothing more and nothing less. I didn't feel alienated, nor did I feel empowered. Marines are marines, all part of the green machine, we can give our hearts to Jesus, as long as we serve the Corps. I never felt any pressure to convert to Christianity on the part of the USMC. It was a personal decision, and regardless of its outcome I was still a Sergeant of Marines, and expected to perform duties thereunto pertaining.

Never once did I witness preferential treatment given to Christians, and never once did I witness derogatory treatment given to Jews, Atheists, or Muslims. In the USMC, ever man is the same and the mission given by "higher" supersedes any denomination conviction. It may make us idolizers, but it also makes us Marines. That is the core to our effectiveness.

I entirely respect your conversion, and wish you very well on your journey and thank you from my heart for your service to our country. Personally, I'm an ex-Christian that became an atheist.

My main concern was the comment about there being "no atheists in foxholes", because my experience discussing with atheists and researching this topic has come to a completely different conclusion. As far as I'm concerned, we're all equal; I always hope that all of us find value in one another as humans, rather than segregate one another by our religious--or, in many cases, non-religious--convictions. That isn't meant to say you were segregating by any means, but rather that the will of atheists is every bit as strong as that of a Christian. Conversion, of course, goes both ways.

john_anderson_ii
09-27-2007, 01:33 AM
My main concern was the comment about there being "no atheists in foxholes",


While on convoy from LSA Viper to Al Kut Iraq, I was responsible for documenting, photographing, and forming opinions on concrete plants. During this trip my convoy became very susceptible to sniper fire. When a 7.62mm round shattered the wooden "ribs" of the MTRB I was riding, I decided it was time for me to figure out what this afterlife "thing" was all about I'm sure there are atheists in foxholes, and I will fight tooth and nail with them any day. So, this is in no way a Military generalization. Its a personal conviction.

TheIndependent
09-27-2007, 01:44 AM
While on convoy from LSA Viper to Al Kut Iraq, I was responsible for documenting, photographing, and forming opinions on concrete plants. During this trip my convoy became very susceptible to sniper fire. When a 7.62mm round shattered the wooden "ribs" of the MTRB I was riding, I decided it was time for me to figure out what this afterlife "thing" was all about I'm sure there are atheists in foxholes, and I will fight tooth and nail with them any day. So, this is in no way a Military generalization. Its a personal conviction.

Thank you for sharing your story; I really appreciate personally the clarification you're making. It's difficult in many cases to be taken seriously in any capacity by Christians as an atheist, no thanks in part to the many stereotypes out there in terms of moral character and such.

Salamando
09-27-2007, 01:45 AM
I thought by "there are no atheists in foxholes," you meant when you're under attack you instinctively pray to god.

TheIndependent
09-27-2007, 01:51 AM
I thought by "there are no atheists in foxholes," you meant when you're under attack you instinctively pray to god.

As I understand it in varying contexts, it can be taken any of several ways:

One of which would be as you mentioned. A closely related way would be that atheists' convictions easily fold under the pressures of war. Perhaps the paramount definition in present-day would be that atheists simply do not serve in the Armed Forces.

Back to your regularly scheduled topic; my apologies for the temporary threadjack.

yaz
09-27-2007, 06:55 PM
I'm a southern baptist. Ron Paul is my hero, I agree with everything he says.