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View Full Version : H.R. 3311 tax you for every mile you drive




Pepsi
08-06-2009, 04:51 AM
An Oregon congressman says he wants to test having a government GPS unit in every car so a tax could be imposed on the miles driven.

The proposal, H.R. 3311, which calls for a test project costing $150 million-plus, was introduced by Rep. Earl Blumenauer, D-Ore.

"Oregon has successfully tested a Vehicle Miles Traveled fee, and it is time to expand and test the VMT program across the country," he said in a statement on his website. "A VMT system can better assess fees based on use of our roads and bridges, as well as during times of peak congestion, than a fee based on fuel consumption.

"It is time to get creative and find smart ways to rebuild and renew America's deteriorating infrastructure," he said.

His plan calls for the Department of the Treasury to study the plan with projects in every state.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106056

Pepsi
08-06-2009, 04:51 AM
This is something that all the Tea Party's and every body should oppose.

MelissaWV
08-06-2009, 04:56 AM
It should be easy to find help protesting this. The timing will kill this entire concept.

People just traded their "clunkers" for more fuel-efficient vehicles, but this tax is fuel-efficiency blind. It treats the car that gets 19 miles per gallon the same as it treats the one that gets 33, even though the latter is likely of such design that it is easier on the roads. A Prius doesn't cause the wear and tear that a Hummer does.

jmdrake
08-06-2009, 05:42 AM
It should be easy to find help protesting this. The timing will kill this entire concept.

People just traded their "clunkers" for more fuel-efficient vehicles, but this tax is fuel-efficiency blind. It treats the car that gets 19 miles per gallon the same as it treats the one that gets 33, even though the latter is likely of such design that it is easier on the roads. A Prius doesn't cause the wear and tear that a Hummer does.

Actually fuel more fuel efficient cars was cited as the reason we "need" TBM. The theory is that as cars get more fuel efficient the government is "losing" money. Besides there's nothing to say the new TBM system can't know what kind of car is being tracked and adjust the rates accordingly. If someone made their own biodiesel for their Hummer they could escape any fuel tax (not legally, but only people with bumper stickers saying "This car runs on biodiesal" ever get caught). Only way to catch these "cheaters" (patriots) is TBM.

That said, when Obama's transportation secretary floated this idea (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/02/20/transportation-chief-considers-taxing-miles-driven/) earlier this year it was quickly shot down. The media spun it as the LaHood coming up with the idea all by his lonesome. :rolleyes: We do need to be on top of this. Hit it from the privacy concern angle. (Electronic toll data is already being used in civil lawsuits (http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/18/1807.asp). Police also use this data (http://whiterose.samizdata.net/archives/2003/12/ezpass_used_for_surveillance_b.html). Imagine what a lawyer could do if he could subpoena TBM records.) And we need to point out all of the ways this has come up in the pas so people won't make the mistake of thinking this is some lone nutcase congressman.

Pepsi
08-06-2009, 05:46 AM
GPS would let them track you every were you go. The car chases well be a thing of the pass becuse the GPS can stop the car dead in the road.

Pepsi
01-13-2010, 06:58 PM
bump

Mini-Me
01-13-2010, 07:01 PM
GPS would let them track you every were you go. The car chases well be a thing of the pass becuse the GPS can stop the car dead in the road.

I imagine this might open up an auto service black market for sabotaging car GPS systems without sabotaging their ability to drive. Real criminals would use it to get away in car chases, and ordinary people would use it to avoid being tracked and extorted.

LibForestPaul
01-13-2010, 07:12 PM
When I get my car inspected, the mileage is already recorded. So this is a lie that GPS is required.

squarepusher
01-13-2010, 07:19 PM
When I get my car inspected, the mileage is already recorded. So this is a lie that GPS is required.

yeah, DMV yearly checkups should suffice

Pepsi
05-02-2010, 07:25 AM
Dont put it pass them of not passing it.

awake
05-02-2010, 07:33 AM
When you need something you just take it...


YouTube - Looting a Wal*Mart in New Orleans is OK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV6RO2OwbqQ)

constituent
05-02-2010, 07:35 AM
Which is all part of the globalist agenda to restrict human mobility and fragment present society in efforts to prevent "new" societies from blooming.

Same goes for attempts to "secure the border."

furface
05-02-2010, 07:35 AM
There's a much simpler solution. It's called a gas tax. Energy taxes are among the most fair and non-obtrusive forms of taxation. In my view we should get rid of all income, sales, and property taxes and replace them with excise taxes, various "sin" taxes, and energy taxes.

Fox McCloud
05-02-2010, 07:42 AM
I like the idea of a per-mile tax, provided there are different tax-brackets based on vehicle size, weight, and the type of tires you have....but what I am concerned about is the ability to track you.

If the tax was based on those things above, privacy was guaranteed, and the current gas and diesel taxes were completely repealed (at the State and Federal level), then I think this would be a really good proposal and tax-system......but we all know this isn't going to be how it works.

furface
05-02-2010, 08:48 AM
I like the idea of a per-mile tax, provided there are different tax-brackets based on vehicle size, weight, and the type of tires you have....but what I am concerned about is the ability to track you.
If the tax was based on those things above, privacy was guaranteed, and the current gas and diesel taxes were completely repealed (at the State and Federal level), then I think this would be a really good proposal and tax-system

What you're proposing is ripe for abuse both at the individual and bureaucratic levels. A simple energy tax is much simpler and much more efficient. "You can't disobey the laws of physics, Captain." You purchase energy, you pay a tax. There are relatively few energy producers, so tracking at that level is efficient and non-obtrusive to individuals.

Icymudpuppy
05-02-2010, 08:57 AM
I have no problem with a mileage tax instead of the gas tax. But there is no need for a GPS. Every vehicle has an odometer already. Most places have yearly emissions testing with attendents. Have the attendants take an odometer reading at the same time and add it to the registration fee. Simple, no tracking my personal location.

My problem with the energy tax / gas tax is that the lawn mower, garden tractor, ATV, etc that never does any damage to the roadways is getting taxed too, while the Prius' and insights are getting taxed less than the damage they do.

I think a good short term solution is to tax a mileage fee based on odometer readings at yearly registration for passenger vehicles, and at weigh stations for commercial trucks.

Cost of the mileage reading would depend on Gross vehicle weight, thus a Harley or a Geo Metro would get less tax than a Dodge ram or Ford Superduty, as they do less damage to the roadways.

Of course, a better solution might be to privatize the roads and have toll systems.

furface
05-02-2010, 09:00 AM
I have no problem with a mileage tax instead of the gas tax. But there is no need for a GPS. Every vehicle has an odometer already. Most places have yearly emissions testing with attendents. Have the attendants take an odometer reading at the same time and add it to the registration fee. Simple, no tracking my personal location.

I haven't been to the DMV to register a vehicle in decades. Tracking mileage is simply more bureaucratic nonsense. Yes, an energy tax penalizes low mileage vehicles like trucks and SUVs, but these vehicles penalize society at large, so it is legitimate to preferentially tax them.

Sarge
05-02-2010, 09:01 AM
Would you like to clarify what qualifies as various sin taxs?

angelatc
05-02-2010, 09:07 AM
Would you like to clarify what qualifies as various sin taxs?

ANything I don't do!

I don't like the rhetoric of "SUVs and trucks punish society" but furfaces analogy of an energy tax is dead on.

You can't defeat the laws of physics.

Icymudpuppy
05-02-2010, 09:10 AM
I haven't been to the DMV to register a vehicle in decades. Tracking mileage is simply more bureaucratic nonsense. Yes, an energy tax penalizes low mileage vehicles like trucks and SUVs, but these vehicles penalize society at large, so it is legitimate to preferentially tax them.

You didn't read my whole post, did you?

I already mentioned that my mileage plan would have a graduated scale based on Gross vehicle weight.

awake
05-02-2010, 09:14 AM
Abolishing one tax to replace it with another does not control the disease. If you grant someone the authority to take anothers property against that persons will, they will take everything at some point.

TC95
05-02-2010, 09:24 AM
If they tax every mile you drive, then they'll tax the miles you drive to and from work. Then they tax the income you make from working. TAX, TAX, TAX! :mad:

tangent4ronpaul
05-02-2010, 09:34 AM
I imagine this might open up an auto service black market for sabotaging car GPS systems without sabotaging their ability to drive. Real criminals would use it to get away in car chases, and ordinary people would use it to avoid being tracked and extorted.

+1!!!

What I REALLY think about this proposal would earn me a visit from the SS - so I'm just going to shut the fuck up!

Pardon me while I cool off my ears - steam has been shooting out of them ... :mad:

-t

furface
05-02-2010, 09:48 AM
I already mentioned that my mileage plan would have a graduated scale based on Gross vehicle weight.

But why bother? Why not just tax energy consumption?

Regarding "sin taxes," anything that the consumption of which negatively impacts society at large is a "sin." It's not a sin in any religious sense because for instance water could be construed as a "sin" in this context. In fact there's a valid argument that taxing water consumption would be legitimate because there's a finite supply of fresh water. Energy, much more than water, falls into this category, though.

There are a lot of what I would call "entitlement libertarians" running around. "I have a God given right to walk into an ER without medical insurance and get treatment." "I got my social security and medicare, but to hell with you if you want free medical care." "I have a God given right to dump raw sewage onto my neighbor's land and not compensate them." "Take the exhaust from my SUV and shove it up your ass because it's not my problem." Yes, the idea of dumping waste onto the environment without payment is an entitlement and a form of forced collectivism.

TruckinMike
05-02-2010, 11:53 AM
What forum is this??? RonPaulforums?? Can't be! Not with all this talk acceptance of government tracking and regulating!! WoW! I think I'm in the YouTube - Twilight Zone intro. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y)...

TMike:mad:

Fox McCloud
05-02-2010, 12:01 PM
I have no problem with a mileage tax instead of the gas tax. But there is no need for a GPS. Every vehicle has an odometer already. Most places have yearly emissions testing with attendents. Have the attendants take an odometer reading at the same time and add it to the registration fee. Simple, no tracking my personal location.

My problem with the energy tax / gas tax is that the lawn mower, garden tractor, ATV, etc that never does any damage to the roadways is getting taxed too, while the Prius' and insights are getting taxed less than the damage they do.

I think a good short term solution is to tax a mileage fee based on odometer readings at yearly registration for passenger vehicles, and at weigh stations for commercial trucks.

Cost of the mileage reading would depend on Gross vehicle weight, thus a Harley or a Geo Metro would get less tax than a Dodge ram or Ford Superduty, as they do less damage to the roadways.

Of course, a better solution might be to privatize the roads and have toll systems.

exactly. I think all roadways should be privatize--whereby you'd purchase permits or pay tolls based upon how much damage your vehicle causes to the roadways (this is the way it used to be on the highways of old--based on wagon weight and wheel type).

That said, until this system is put in place, then I think the system you and I are describing is a good transition; it's not really a tax so much as it is a user-fee.

Fox McCloud
05-02-2010, 12:11 PM
But why bother? Why not just tax energy consumption?

Because taxing energy itself isn't always proportional to the damage a vehicle causes to the roads. An example of this is a small to medium sized, yet high horsepower sedan compared to, say a highly efficient large SUV. It's very obvious that the SUV is going to cause more damage to the road than the sedan, yet the sedan could end up paying more, in taxes, than the SUV driver....which means that those with fuel-efficient vehicles are, in effect, being subsidized by those who are not.

You also end up paying tax on the gasoline if you're using it for lawn mowers, garden tractors, generators, etc.

Another problem with the current gas tax is that only about 40% of it actually goes towards infrastructure maintenance; the rest goes towards public transit programs (and a few others).


There are a lot of what I would call "entitlement libertarians" running around. "I have a God given right to walk into an ER without medical insurance and get treatment." "I got my social security and medicare, but to hell with you if you want free medical care." "I have a God given right to dump raw sewage onto my neighbor's land and not compensate them." "Take the exhaust from my SUV and shove it up your ass because it's not my problem." Yes, the idea of dumping waste onto the environment without payment is an entitlement and a form of forced collectivism.

I'm not; I just view a pay-per-mile scheme (under the guidelines I listed) as better than our current system--ie: a transition system.

furface
05-02-2010, 12:56 PM
I'm not; I just view a pay-per-mile scheme (under the guidelines I listed) as better than our current system--ie: a transition system.

I'm not saying you were. My view is that an ordinary citizen should have no coerced encounters with the state whatsoever. Every time these encounters pop up, they get abused by the state. I think 4/15 started as something rather innocuous and look what it's turned into.

Fox McCloud
05-02-2010, 03:09 PM
I'm not saying you were. My view is that an ordinary citizen should have no coerced encounters with the state whatsoever. Every time these encounters pop up, they get abused by the state. I think 4/15 started as something rather innocuous and look what it's turned into.

oh, I agree with you 100%, but I also realize how people are and how things need to be phased in, as well. For example, you would be hard pressed to get voters to vote yes or no on completely doing away with social security; but you might be able to get them to say no to social security to those who are under the age of, say...30 years old.

With this system you're moving closer to what the free market would be--people would also see the direct impact that driving more had on their wallets; that's fairly hidden now...sure, they pay the gas tax, but how many people really know how much it is? Sure gasoline dictates that too, but when you pay a yearly fee (or however its broken down) that is billed to how much you damage a road, well...it'll make people stop and think more.

In addition, it'd be easier to transition from a pay-per-mile scheme to a 100% private, free market scheme than to go from our current system to a free market one.


The thing is, I'd be willing to bet that there would be GPS tracking in this bill, a flat charge, and the gasoline/diesel taxes would remain in place...which well, goes against my three criterion for me to support a bill like this.

Old Ducker
05-02-2010, 03:20 PM
I don't believe this is even gonna fly in Oregon.

nate895
05-02-2010, 03:21 PM
I don't believe this is even gonna fly in Oregon.

Oregon was trying to do this a couple of years ago itself, but it failed miserably. I can't believe even Blumenhauer is that idiotic, but apparently he is.

awake
05-02-2010, 03:58 PM
When the budgets are squeezed every bureaucrat wants to become an entrepreneur with new taxation gimmicks. The thing is, customers are forced at gunpoint.