Response to "socialized national defense"?

[Knightskye]

What do I say when someone drags out the "Oh, but you're fine with a socialized military" line?

I can deal with the "socialized police and fire" because those are dealt with at the state level. But what do I say about the military?

[Stary Hickory]

Tell them if they are a total shit bag and are willing to hide behind the courage and volunteerism of others then fine. Listen we don't even need a socialized military. It can be a voluntary force with folks voluntarily supporting it.

Tell them fine, you will get rid of all socialized programs and the military can be a voluntary thing. It's actually a decent idea. I think anyone who donates to the military ought to get a certificate or card though, and those who want to honor folks who contribute to national defense can do so.

Things like privately funded grats and things might require that people have an active role in supporting defense. SOciety can work this out on its own, it will reward those who help defend the nation.

Truly it would be an awesome thing to abandon all social programs including the military.

[Elwar]

The Constitution explicitely has the right to "provide for the common Defence".

Also, you do not need socialized fire departments. My town had a private fire department where you either paid $20 a month to cover it or paid a fee up to $2,000 if the fire department was called out to your house.

Of course, the military is about the only thing I can tolerate everyone paying for...everyone uses it. Everyone is protected by the military. Of course, we don't need to be protecting corporations overseas.


Actually, I'd be more than willing to set up a way where people can opt out of military protection if they'd like. If you want to defend your property against missile attack or tanks then by all means you should be able to.

[slothman]

If you want to defend your property against missile attack or tanks then by all means you should be able to.

You could just opt-out but since your neighbor is still in then his money will defend him from a missile your's will be also.
No one would attack you when the whole gov't will protect a nearby area.

[Elwar]

You could just opt-out but since your neighbor is still in then his money will defend him from a missile your's will be also.
No one would attack you when the whole gov't will protect a nearby area.

Ya, I was thinking more along the lines of whole towns or states forming their own civil defense force where a city might have their own defenses against attack and opt out of the federal program. Or if I were to own 500 acres in Montana and have it well defended from attack...

Either way...if we get to the point where we are arguing about who does or does not have to pay just for defense, then that will be an argument I'll be happy having either way.

[angelatc]

What do I say when someone drags out the "Oh, but you're fine with a socialized military" line?

I can deal with the "socialized police and fire" because those are dealt with at the state level. But what do I say about the military?

Constitution.

The primary reason the federal government was formed was to provide for the common defense.

[MGreen]

What do I say when someone drags out the "Oh, but you're fine with a socialized military" line?
Tell them you're an anarcho-capitalist.

...No?

[fgd]

It's explicitly authorized in the Constitution. Healthcare is not. Ergo, the government running things like the USPS, patent office, and the military are absolutely fine.

What article of the Constitution spells out that the government is authorized to run healthcare? None. Therefore, the Constitution must be amended to include healthcare before any discussion of single-payer at all.

[free.alive]

What do I say when someone drags out the "Oh, but you're fine with a socialized military" line?

I can deal with the "socialized police and fire" because those are dealt with at the state level. But what do I say about the military?



Privatize it all. It will work better and be cheaper. Read economist Robert Murphy's, "Chaos Theory." Quick read, good stuff.

[RevolutionSD]

What do I say when someone drags out the "Oh, but you're fine with a socialized military" line?

I can deal with the "socialized police and fire" because those are dealt with at the state level. But what do I say about the military?

Actually, they're right.
To be consistent libertarians, we need to oppose a socialized military (paid for by theft from the state), as well as socialized medicine and everything else.

[ClayTrainor]

Adam Kokesh raised a similar question to Stephan Molyneux, i'll see if i can dig it up.

[NYgs23]

Be consistent. The early American ideal was not a standing army, but voluntary local militias in the case of invasion.

[AggieforPaul]

The military is authorized by the Constitution.

What good would having a liberty loving, minarchist country if we didn't have the ability to defend it?

[powerofreason]

It's explicitly authorized in the Constitution. Healthcare is not. Ergo, the government running things like the USPS, patent office, and the military are absolutely fine.

What article of the Constitution spells out that the government is authorized to run healthcare? None. Therefore, the Constitution must be amended to include healthcare before any discussion of single-payer at all.

Allow me to make a statement that will blow your mind. What the hell gives the Constitution authority over me? Show me the steps in logic that lead you to believe that.

Edit: Here I'll start you off.

1. Bunch of rich old elitists remove the Articles of Confederation in a mercantilist coup.
2. Old people sign a paper with rules on it.
3. ???
4. Rules apply to me.

My position is that the only people with rightful authority are private property owners, since private property brings order to the world (not governments).

[powerofreason]

How about doing whats right, regardless of what the Constitution says. Or is the Constitution the source of objective ethics? In other words, the Constitution must always be right!

Because.... Its old! And..... Its tradition! And.... Jefferson was a good guy! And.... I can't think for myself!

Ethics can be figured out logically. Rothbard showed that quite convincingly. Painstakingly, step by step. Leaving no objection unanswered.

May I recommend two great books by him, both available free in pdf courtesy of the Mises Institute (mises.org). For A New Liberty and The Ethics of Liberty.

And before you know it, you'll be one of those crazy Austrian anarchists!

[powerofreason]

Also I think Hoppe's book The Myth of National Defense proves logically that voluntary guerilla fighting is far superior (both morally and by utilitarian* measurement) to State sponsored, centrally planned warfare. Centrally planning wars works just as bad as anything else.

And if the Constitution endorsed single payer groceries for everyone (or if it were amended to), who here would take up and support that program?

*eww, utilitarianism.

[powerofreason]

bump

[Knightskye]

Also I think Hoppe's book The Myth of National Defense proves logically that voluntary guerilla fighting is far superior (both morally and by utilitarian* measurement) to State sponsored, centrally planned warfare. Centrally planning wars works just as bad as anything else.

Give me a summary. Where would people get the equipment? Who would lead the troops into battle?

[Flash]

It's explicitly authorized in the Constitution. Healthcare is not. Ergo, the government running things like the USPS, patent office, and the military are absolutely fine.

What article of the Constitution spells out that the government is authorized to run healthcare? None. Therefore, the Constitution must be amended to include healthcare before any discussion of single-payer at all.

Heres some good Lew Rockwell articles ont he USPS

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/obama-postoffice126.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/alston/alston21.html

[lx43]

I would be happy if they brought all our forces stationed overseas home and cut military spending by 80%.

[literatim]

Give me a summary. Where would people get the equipment? Who would lead the troops into battle?

The tanks, aircraft carriers, submarines, and jets are going to magically poof into existence.

[angelatc]

Oh great. Another thread which dives into arguing against the constitution. And thus arguing against Ron Paul.

How enlightened.