The case for toll roads without the government

[muh_roads]

My libertarian friend still thinks we should be paying the government to take care of the roads. I was wondering what info is out there to counter this and turn it into a private market with various tolls?

[South Park Fan]

Have him look at what Walter Block says about the subject:

http://mises.org/story/3416
http://mises.org/journals/jls/3_2/3_2_7.pdf
http://www.lewrockwell.com/block/block128.html
http://mises.org/journals/jls/7_1/7_1_1.pdf
http://mises.org/store/Privatization-of-Roads-and-Highways-P581.aspx
http://www.walterblock.com/wp-content/uploads/publications/speed_parades.pdf

[newbitech]

its pretty easy to talk about privatization of roads now that they are already built for the most part.

I have some doubt that our road infrastructure would be as complete as it is today, even if in some places (like my city) the roads are awful.

I doubt my road would be paved if it was up to our neighbors to organize and pay for it.

I don't see road building as a profitable enterprise and one that businesses would engage in. Could you imagine having to pay a toll at every turn you make while looking for that party to go to? WOW. No thanks.

[Epic]

pdf of Block's book:

http://mises.org/books/roads_web.pdf

[muh_roads]

its pretty easy to talk about privatization of roads now that they are already built for the most part.

I have some doubt that our road infrastructure would be as complete as it is today, even if in some places (like my city) the roads are awful.

I doubt my road would be paved if it was up to our neighbors to organize and pay for it.

I don't see road building as a profitable enterprise and one that businesses would engage in. Could you imagine having to pay a toll at every turn you make while looking for that party to go to? WOW. No thanks.

The flipside is that if the road you go on is crap because the company is not maintaining it or it is too expensive to travel on, you can take a detour. Detours are the free market competition. The guy who maintains his roads well while keeping tolls low is the one who wins. This is the business model everyone will follow.

I guess I am just not a fan of paying for others travel through gas taxes and other taxes. I only go a few routes to work and back...yet we are all forced to pay for everyone else.

Just like how we argue against the NAFTA superhighway for international travel, I bet at a time there were people arguing against the highway system to connect states. And they were called "kooks" by their peers at one time too.

[newbitech]

The flipside is that if the road you go on is crap because the company is not maintaining it or it is too expensive to travel on, you can take a detour. Detours are the free market competition. The guy who maintains his roads well while keeping tolls low is the one who wins. This is the business model everyone will follow.

I guess I am just not a fan of paying for others travel through gas taxes and other taxes. I only go a few routes to work and back...yet we are all forced to pay for everyone else.

Just like how we argue against the NAFTA superhighway for international travel, I bet at a time there were people arguing against the highway system to connect states. And they were called "kooks" by their peers at one time too.

Roads are very expensive to maintain both in manpower and materials. How would the fees be collected? Would I need an electronic device for every company whose road I wanted to travel on?

I don't think the government makes any money off of roads. I am pretty sure operating roads is a net loss. If there is no viable profit model for road privatization on a national scale, are we just going to not travel?

What about cities and states that rely on tourism? Don't you think jacking up the cost of travel would turn away the profits from businesses that rely on the travel industry? Take a look at some other private means of travel. The airlines for example. How many times has the government had to get involved in that industry because of failed profit models?

What about the railways? Those are operated privately and yet we still have accidents and there is no competition in that market. I just don't see how you plan on opting out of government solution to highway travel and at the same time expect conditions to improve.

I would love to not pay taxes for other people, but at the same time I realize that without cooperation at the community levels, there would be no pooling money together to take care of the things we all enjoy and benefit from.

How much would you pay to travel on a private road anyways and how does that compare to how much you are paying now to travel on public roads?

[muh_roads]

Roads are very expensive to maintain both in manpower and materials. How would the fees be collected? Would I need an electronic device for every company whose road I wanted to travel on?

I don't think the government makes any money off of roads. I am pretty sure operating roads is a net loss. If there is no viable profit model for road privatization on a national scale, are we just going to not travel?

What about cities and states that rely on tourism? Don't you think jacking up the cost of travel would turn away the profits from businesses that rely on the travel industry? Take a look at some other private means of travel. The airlines for example. How many times has the government had to get involved in that industry because of failed profit models?

What about the railways? Those are operated privately and yet we still have accidents and there is no competition in that market. I just don't see how you plan on opting out of government solution to highway travel and at the same time expect conditions to improve.

I would love to not pay taxes for other people, but at the same time I realize that without cooperation at the community levels, there would be no pooling money together to take care of the things we all enjoy and benefit from.

How much would you pay to travel on a private road anyways and how does that compare to how much you are paying now to travel on public roads?

Electronically. You don't need a different device to pay store clerks if you don't have cash. A 3rd party like Visa & Mastercard handles it for them and you. Same thing here.

So you wouldn't have to stop I suppose RF would be one way and it deducts from your account. I have no problem with RF products if the government isn't involved. We use it in other products anyway.

[Brian4Liberty]

its pretty easy to talk about privatization of roads now that they are already built for the most part.

I have some doubt that our road infrastructure would be as complete as it is today, even if in some places (like my city) the roads are awful.

I doubt my road would be paved if it was up to our neighbors to organize and pay for it.

I don't see road building as a profitable enterprise and one that businesses would engage in. Could you imagine having to pay a toll at every turn you make while looking for that party to go to? WOW. No thanks.

Agree.

At a bare minimum, if government does anything, it should be something that benefits everyone. Roads benefit all of us. There is not a single person that does not use roads. Some may benefit more, especially truckers, but at least it's not a government expenditure that benefits very few people.

[newbitech]

Electronically. You don't need a different device to pay store clerks if you don't have cash. A 3rd party like Visa & Mastercard handles it for them and you. Same thing here.

So you wouldn't have to stop I suppose RF would be one way and it deducts from your account. I have no problem with RF products if the government isn't involved. We use it in other products anyway.


fair enough, so basically you are saying I would have to pay for a third party device to pay for tolls.

Would I have to pay for this device? How much is that going to cost me? Does a portion of the toll I pay go to the company processing the transaction? How much will that cost? Would I be able to shop around for one of these devices and who would be responsible for making sure it works wherever I go? Or would it be like cell phones and only work in certain geographical areas? Who is responsible if the device malfunctions and leaves me stranded not being able to pay for the particular road I am going to use?

There is a whole lot of cost involved in getting this system up and running. I just wonder if this is really going to be cheaper than just sharing a little bit through taxes.

I would need to see some cost analysis to pursue total road privatization further. If it is really cheaper, then why not. I understand the principle of it, and I agree. I just don't see a cost effective way of changing over to privatization and maintaining roads privately. no doubt it could work in some communities, but big metros like the one I live in. Sheesh good luck with that.

[brandon]

I was wondering what info is out there to counter this

Tell them to look at the roads.

Massive potholes, stop and go traffic, bored cops who are just waiting to fine you and ruin your day, too many stop signs, speed limits that are too low, DUI limits that are insanely low, rest stops that charge $7 for a burger king hamburger

You think a private company could ever stay in business if they had all of these problems?

[Original_Intent]

I don't really care for toll roads - it is probably the "most fair" as far as the roads that get used will get the most tolls, etc, but it also adds a level of inefficiency. I would much prefer that each state take care of it's own interstate and state highways, and each county and/or city take care of their own roads. It would be much less complex to fund it from a gasoline tax, in fact there could be a state, county, and local tax on gas for road maintenance.

That way it will be paid for based on use. Vehicles that get better gas mileage will pay less per mile, but they also tend to be lighter vehicles that wear the road down less. Also, encouraging people to use more efficient cars thru taxes is not necessarily a bad thing.

I am generally not for incentives other than just market incentives for things like going electric. In the short term this would motivate people to go towards hybrids. Down the road if hybrids or alternative fuels are widespread, obviously a different method than a gast ax would be needed.

[free.alive]

newbitech -

You obviously haven't bothered to read any economic argument for privatized roads, and, I'd argue, have so little confidence in the market because you haven't really explored it. Go ahead! You've been on this forum, at least, for about has long as I, yet you're still uncertain of and oblivious to large aspects of libertarian political/economic theory. :rolleyes:

Go ahead. Make a breakthrough! It's time for you to leave "newbi" behind!


Some responses to a couple of your comments:



I have some doubt that our road infrastructure would be as complete as it is today, even if in some places (like my city) the roads are awful.

I doubt my road would be paved if it was up to our neighbors to organize and pay for it.

So you have found the ONE thing that government can do better than individuals operating voluntarily motivated by self-interest! (sarcasm) However, given that you're own city (along with, pretty much, all others) provides evidence to the contrary, maybe your "doubt" is misplaced.

Also, have you ever heard of a neighborhood association or gated community? These often are arranged so that the homeowners jointly own the roads. It's a private contract.




I don't see road building as a profitable enterprise and one that businesses would engage in. Could you imagine having to pay a toll at every turn you make while looking for that party to go to? WOW. No thanks.

But you haven't looked into it, so how could you see it as profitable? Would it be profitable for companies to arrange the roads in the manner you suggest. Probably not. I'm confident they would find another way.




Roads are very expensive to maintain both in manpower and materials. How would the fees be collected? Would I need an electronic device for every company whose road I wanted to travel on?

The market would decide, and it would probably be cheap. Assuming the drivers were actually the ones paying for the roads, if the customers didn't like the payment system to be intrusive, then the road owner/operators would find another way. Don't worry, the service would be far better than it is now.




I don't think the government makes any money off of roads. I am pretty sure operating roads is a net loss. If there is no viable profit model for road privatization on a national scale, are we just going to not travel?

Government doesn't make money on anything. Please, do a little reading! If you have no idea how the market works, and have little faith in it, both of which you're demonstrating here, then how can you presume that someone who's maybe smarter, and definitely more inquisitive than you could not possibly be creative enough to conceive of a profitable method of building and running roads? Fifteen years ago no one could conceive of a profitable method for people to pass information instantly in real time, yet Google, Yahoo, Facebook, MySpace, Firefox and Al Gore:D have figured out a way to do so. Or do you think they offer those services free because they're nice and can't figure out a way to make money off of them. Why assume that people in the road industry would be any less creative?




Don't you think jacking up the cost of travel would turn away the profits from businesses that rely on the travel industry?

So again, you think that government can do something cheaper than private interests.:p This is pure fantasy. Businesses would likely pay the road fees the same way they pay shipping fees. Gleefully - especially considering the MUCH lower taxes a business would pay in such a society that would allow privatized roads. Or do you think that now most businesses use the post office to ship their goods rather than UPS, FedEx or DHL, etc?





Take a look at some other private means of travel. The airlines for example. How many times has the government had to get involved in that industry because of failed profit models?

What about the railways? Those are operated privately and yet we still have accidents and there is no competition in that market. I just don't see how you plan on opting out of government solution to highway travel and at the same time expect conditions to improve.

Airlines (and trains, urban rail, etc.) are EXPENSIVE because of government intervention. Please investigate it! You're assumptions are becoming tiresome.




I would love to not pay taxes for other people, but at the same time I realize that without cooperation at the community levels, there would be no pooling money together to take care of the things we all enjoy and benefit from.

How much would you pay to travel on a private road anyways and how does that compare to how much you are paying now to travel on public roads?

Read about the "tragedy of the commons". Then ask why you're city's roads are so bad. Assuming you would pay at all for private roads, it would definitely cost you less then you're paying in taxes.



Anyway, how about this. If you apply Bastiat's broken window to the transportation industry, who knows how we would be traveling right now. If the government hadn't been involved in the industry since the beginning, maybe we could have had flying cars by the '70's and teleportation by the '80's. We simply cannot know. Nor can we predict how rapid technological advancement would be in the transportation if the government finally freed it up. Maybe someone would develop an air-traffic control system that could support billions of vehicles, thereby by making mass land travel largely obsolete.

All I can be sure of, is that with total deregulation of everything related to travel (including vehicle/airplane/train/trolley/bus/boat manufacturing), we would soon be traveling far better, faster and definitely cheaper!