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Reason
07-27-2009, 08:42 PM
Food 4 Thought

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perspective
Debunking Canadian health care myths

By Rhonda Hackett
The Denver Post
Posted:06/07/2009 01:00:00 AM MDT


As a Canadian living in the United States for the past 17 years, I am frequently asked by Americans and Canadians alike to declare one health care system as the better one.

Often I'll avoid answering, regardless of the questioner's nationality. To choose one or the other system usually translates into a heated discussion of each one's merits, pitfalls, and an intense recitation of commonly cited statistical comparisons of the two systems.

Because if the only way we compared the two systems was with statistics, there is a clear victor. It is becoming increasingly more difficult to dispute the fact that Canada spends less money on health care to get better outcomes.

Yet, the debate rages on. Indeed, it has reached a fever pitch since President Barack Obama took office, with Americans either dreading or hoping for the dawn of a single-payer health care system. Opponents of such a system cite Canada as the best example of what not to do, while proponents laud that very same Canadian system as the answer to all of America's health care problems. Frankly, both sides often get things wrong when trotting out Canada to further their respective arguments.

As America comes to grips with the reality that changes are desperately needed within its health care infrastructure, it might prove useful to first debunk some myths about the Canadian system.

Myth: Taxes in Canada are extremely high, mostly because of national health care.

In actuality, taxes are nearly equal on both sides of the border. Overall, Canada's taxes are slightly higher than those in the U.S. However, Canadians are afforded many benefits for their tax dollars, even beyond health care (e.g., tax credits, family allowance, cheaper higher education), so the end result is a wash. At the end of the day, the average after-tax income of Canadian workers is equal to about 82 percent of their gross pay. In the U.S., that average is 81.9 percent.

Myth: Canada's health care system is a cumbersome bureaucracy.

The U.S. has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world. More than 31 percent of every dollar spent on health care in the U.S. goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, etc. The provincial single-payer system in Canada operates with just a 1 percent overhead. Think about it. It is not necessary to spend a huge amount of money to decide who gets care and who doesn't when everybody is covered.

Myth: The Canadian system is significantly more expensive than that of the U.S.Ten percent of Canada's GDP is spent on health care for 100 percent of the population. The U.S. spends 17 percent of its GDP but 15 percent of its population has no coverage whatsoever and millions of others have inadequate coverage. In essence, the U.S. system is considerably more expensive than Canada's. Part of the reason for this is uninsured and underinsured people in the U.S. still get sick and eventually seek care. People who cannot afford care wait until advanced stages of an illness to see a doctor and then do so through emergency rooms, which cost considerably more than primary care services.

What the American taxpayer may not realize is that such care costs about $45 billion per year, and someone has to pay it. This is why insurance premiums increase every year for insured patients while co-pays and deductibles also rise rapidly.

Myth: Canada's government decides who gets health care and when they get it.While HMOs and other private medical insurers in the U.S. do indeed make such decisions, the only people in Canada to do so are physicians. In Canada, the government has absolutely no say in who gets care or how they get it. Medical decisions are left entirely up to doctors, as they should be.

There are no requirements for pre-authorization whatsoever. If your family doctor says you need an MRI, you get one. In the U.S., if an insurance administrator says you are not getting an MRI, you don't get one no matter what your doctor thinks — unless, of course, you have the money to cover the cost.

Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery. Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example. However, the wait has nothing to do with money per se, but everything to do with the lack of radiation therapists. Despite such waits, however, it is noteworthy that Canada boasts lower incident and mortality rates than the U.S. for all cancers combined, according to the U.S. Cancer Statistics Working Group and the Canadian Cancer Society. Moreover, fewer Canadians (11.3 percent) than Americans (14.4 percent) admit unmet health care needs.

Myth: Canadians are paying out of pocket to come to the U.S. for medical care.Most patients who come from Canada to the U.S. for health care are those whose costs are covered by the Canadian governments. If a Canadian goes outside of the country to get services that are deemed medically necessary, not experimental, and are not available at home for whatever reason (e.g., shortage or absence of high tech medical equipment; a longer wait for service than is medically prudent; or lack of physician expertise), the provincial government where you live fully funds your care. Those patients who do come to the U.S. for care and pay out of pocket are those who perceive their care to be more urgent than it likely is.

Myth: Canada is a socialized health care system in which the government runs hospitals and where doctors work for the government.Princeton University health economist Uwe Reinhardt says single-payer systems are not "socialized medicine" but "social insurance" systems because doctors work in the private sector while their pay comes from a public source. Most physicians in Canada are self-employed. They are not employees of the government nor are they accountable to the government. Doctors are accountable to their patients only. More than 90 percent of physicians in Canada are paid on a fee-for-service basis. Claims are submitted to a single provincial health care plan for reimbursement, whereas in the U.S., claims are submitted to a multitude of insurance providers. Moreover, Canadian hospitals are controlled by private boards and/or regional health authorities rather than being part of or run by the government.

Myth: There aren't enough doctors in Canada.

From a purely statistical standpoint, there are enough physicians in Canada to meet the health care needs of its people. But most doctors practice in large urban areas, leaving rural areas with bona fide shortages. This situation is no different than that being experienced in the U.S. Simply training and employing more doctors is not likely to have any significant impact on this specific problem. Whatever issues there are with having an adequate number of doctors in any one geographical area, they have nothing to do with the single-payer system.

And these are just some of the myths about the Canadian health care system. While emulating the Canadian system will likely not fix U.S. health care, it probably isn't the big bad "socialist" bogeyman it has been made out to be.

It is not a perfect system, but it has its merits. For people like my 55-year-old Aunt Betty, who has been waiting for 14 months for knee-replacement surgery due to a long history of arthritis, it is the superior system. Her $35,000-plus surgery is finally scheduled for next month. She has been in pain, and her quality of life has been compromised. However, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Aunt Betty — who lives on a fixed income and could never afford private health insurance, much less the cost of the surgery and requisite follow-up care — will soon sport a new, high-tech knee. Waiting 14 months for the procedure is easy when the alternative is living in pain for the rest of your life.

Rhonda Hackett of Castle Rock is a clinical psychologist.
http://www.denverpost.com/portlet/article/html/fragments/print_article.jsp?articleId=12523427&siteId=36

Reason
07-28-2009, 11:53 AM
bump...

Freedom 4 all
07-28-2009, 04:30 PM
Myth: Taxes in Canada are extremely high, mostly because of national health care.

In actuality, taxes are nearly equal on both sides of the border. Overall, Canada's taxes are slightly higher than those in the U.S. However, Canadians are afforded many benefits for their tax dollars, even beyond health care (e.g., tax credits, family allowance, cheaper higher education), so the end result is a wash. At the end of the day, the average after-tax income of Canadian workers is equal to about 82 percent of their gross pay. In the U.S., that average is 81.9 percent.


It's hard to compare because Canada doesn't spend the insanely retarded amounts on overseas empires that the US does. Instead of blowing shit up in camel orientated nations, we have socialized medicine. As a Canadian I feel that if the government is going to spend my money I'd rather get that money back in doctor bills than have it pissed away in the third world. As to how it actually works I can't say I've ever had a problem with it.

dannno
07-28-2009, 04:36 PM
It's hard to compare because Canada doesn't spend the insanely retarded amounts on overseas empires that the US does. Instead of blowing shit up in camel orientated nations, we have socialized medicine. As a Canadian I feel that if the government is going to spend my money I'd rather get that money back in doctor bills than have it pissed away in the third world. As to how it actually works I can't say I've ever had a problem with it.


Yep, our dollars are going all over the globe constantly.

As far as healthcare, socialism might not be the answer, but it is a hell of a lot better than the corporatism where the corporations run the government and sap up all the tax money for executive bonuses. At least in Canada and other countries the money is spent on actual HEALTHCARE..

The free market is the best solution, and that is what I'll fight for, but I honestly think a single payer system would be better than what we have now... but then again you'll notice that a single payer system is NOT the direction we are being taken..

That was a very interesting article, thanks for posting OP.

ChaosControl
07-28-2009, 04:43 PM
Yeah, what we currently have is the worst of both worlds.
There is socialized insurance, free market insurance, and then there is corporatist insurance. We have the third one and that is why things are so ****ed up. Even a single payer system would be better than crapshoot we have now. Of course the best plan would be get government out of it 100%, end corporate limited liability and corporate personhood.

Bucjason
07-28-2009, 04:52 PM
Canada also spends very little for Defense, because they have our military for protection.

Canadians also have our Health-care system to fall back on when the wait is too long to get a critical operation they need.

We , unfortunetly , can't rely on the Canadians for anything....

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 05:10 PM
I live in Australia.

Our health care system is not perfect.

But it is pretty fucking good.

Maybe super X Brain Surgeon is not here, but everyone is looked after.

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 05:12 PM
Canada also spends very little for Defense, because they have our military for protection.

Canadians also have our Health-care system to fall back on when the wait is too long to get a critical operation they need.

We , unfortunetly , can't rely on the Canadians for anything....

Fuck your Military.

Piss off!

ClayTrainor
07-28-2009, 05:16 PM
We , unfortunetly , can't rely on the Canadians for anything....

Actually we supply you with 58% of your oil, TY very much. ;) :p

dannno
07-28-2009, 05:28 PM
Actually we supply you with 58% of your oil, TY very much. ;) :p

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/feel_burn.jpg

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 05:35 PM
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/feel_burn.jpg
arrogant_fuck>

Reason
07-28-2009, 05:39 PM
let's keep this thread on target.

dannno
07-28-2009, 05:41 PM
let's keep this thread on target.

It's Ok, he's Australian.

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 05:41 PM
Which target?

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 05:42 PM
You rule me?

Reason
07-28-2009, 05:43 PM
Which target?

Health-care...

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 05:43 PM
Wonder why people are irritated?

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 05:44 PM
Why tey want to blow you up?

dannno
07-28-2009, 05:45 PM
Wonder why people are irritated?

Sand in their vagina?

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 05:45 PM
Go Figure?

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 05:46 PM
Listen to Ron Paul.

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 05:50 PM
If Aussies are pissed off...

You have serious problems.

heavenlyboy34
07-28-2009, 05:53 PM
sand in their vagina?

lmao!!! :d

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 05:58 PM
Your Vagina Mate,

I'm going fishing off-shore tonight.

We need shark bait.

Volunteers?

dannno
07-28-2009, 06:02 PM
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/haleylovemom/JUMPINGWHITE2.jpg

Back in December me and one of my buddies paddled about a quarter mile offshore to surf some Overhead+ sandbar in an area notorious for great whites.

2 days later someone sited a 20-22 footer out there..

I mean, measure out 20-22' some time and imagine a shark taking up that space :eek:

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 06:06 PM
Impessive Mate.

Nice Holiday.

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 06:11 PM
I live in Wild Country.

You live in Hollywood.

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 06:12 PM
Google West Australia.

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 06:13 PM
Wild Country.

dannno
07-28-2009, 06:20 PM
I live on the border of Hollywood and wild country.

Right now I am 5 minutes from here:

http://media.independent.com/img/photos/2008/01/16/Naples_file_Web.jpg

dannno
07-28-2009, 06:22 PM
West Australia is for wimps:

http://boardsportszone.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/wave__02_428283a.jpg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01003/surfer-shark_1003384c.jpg

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 07:17 PM
Give it a rest. That is designated space.

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 07:20 PM
I hunt Wild Pigs and Camels in my Country.

Heaps better Beaches.

I have driven from Frisco to LA.

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 07:25 PM
Australia= 20 million people, ina continent the same size as America.

I like my choice.

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 07:26 PM
I love OZ.

Good place.

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 07:30 PM
Danno,

My Man,

I can drive to Margaret River and be there in 30 minutes.

Not for Pussies.

dannno
07-28-2009, 07:50 PM
Those are oz spots in those pics, I was being sarcastic. West oz is insane.

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 08:01 PM
Those are oz spots in those pics, I was being sarcastic. West oz is insane.

Sorry Bro,

With a name like Danno.

I thought Hawaii.

Best surf in the world.

Ozwest
07-28-2009, 08:01 PM
Cheers,

James.

Freedom 4 all
07-28-2009, 08:12 PM
It's truly amazing how a thead about CANADIAN HEALTH CARE turns into a discussion about Australia, and not even Australian health care.

mediahasyou
07-28-2009, 08:20 PM
Medical decisions are left entirely up to doctors, as they should be.

Anyone else strongly disagree with this statement?

Bucjason
07-28-2009, 09:56 PM
Actually we supply you with 58% of your oil, TY very much. ;) :p

We have our own oil , we just can't drill for any of it because hippies are busy trying to destroy our economy in the name of a smaller carbon footprint....

Reason
07-28-2009, 09:58 PM
Anyone else strongly disagree with this statement?

explain?

Vessol
07-28-2009, 10:02 PM
Anyone else strongly disagree with this statement?

Perhaps not strongly, but a doctor's opinion should be taken into strong consideration.

If a mechanic tells you that you need to change your brakes, your probably better taking his advice instead of refusing and complaining how he's just trying to lie to you and rob you as you drive away and your brake fails at the next stop light as you slam into another car and kill a mother and child.

Reason
07-29-2009, 08:19 AM
Perhaps not strongly, but a doctor's opinion should be taken into strong consideration.

If a mechanic tells you that you need to change your brakes, your probably better taking his advice instead of refusing and complaining how he's just trying to lie to you and rob you as you drive away and your brake fails at the next stop light as you slam into another car and kill a mother and child.

agreed

Epic
07-29-2009, 10:04 AM
YouTube - True News 46: Health Care Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt0tKl0J-S4)

RoyalShock
07-29-2009, 10:30 AM
I guess all the myth debunking in the OP is fine, as long as you accept the premise that the availability of funds and services should be based on perceived need and not free-market principles. Why are Canadians coming to the U.S. to get procedures done and not vice-versa?

Is Canada fronting the cost of developing new drugs and letting the market decide the price? No. The United States is and we're subsidizing their price controls.

The "bureaucratic" costs, as specified by the OP article, is actually "administrative overhead", unless you are segregating Medicare/Medicaid.

The doctors there may technically be self-employed, but their income comes from a government-controlled agency. The author saying "doctors make the decisions" doesn't mean they always make them in the best interest of the patient. It would be naive to believe that the source of funding doesn't have an influence.

The story about the author's aunt clearly demonstrates her liberal thinking. Poor quality care for all is superior to freely purchased quality care. I mean, I'm sorry if your knee hurts, but don't ask me to pay for its replacement. Life's not fair. Get over it.

tonesforjonesbones
07-29-2009, 10:30 AM
We have tons of oil in the gulf...the democraps keep blocking us drilling...it would mean over sixty thousand decent paying jobs in Florida. Idiot democraps. TONES

NYgs23
07-29-2009, 10:34 AM
This debate over whether American healthcare is better or worse than Canadian/British/French/Swedish/Swiss healthcare fallacious assumes that those are the only two options. The article writers justifies more healthcare aggression by stating the her Aunt Betty would rather wait 14 months for a knee replacement than pay for excessively pricey health insurance. Well, not all of us are her Aunt Betty, and, in any case, in a free market situation she wouldn't have to make that choice.

Krugerrand
07-29-2009, 10:37 AM
I mean, I'm sorry if your knee hurts, but don't ask me to pay for its replacement. Life's not fair. Get over it.

Or ... ASK me to pay for its replacement ... don't force me by threat of jail to pay for its replacement. Americans are generally generous people. If we weren't being forced to pay for things for people, you'd find people even more open to helping others in need - voluntarily.

RoyalShock
07-29-2009, 10:53 AM
Or ... ASK me to pay for its replacement ... don't force me by threat of jail to pay for its replacement. Americans are generally generous people. If we weren't being forced to pay for things for people, you'd find people even more open to helping others in need - voluntarily.

Thanks, that is more to the point of what I meant.

pcosmar
07-29-2009, 11:15 AM
This had been posted before, and the debunk-er was debunked.
I don't have time to go looking for it again, it is truly a WASTE of time.
I will say this,
Half my relatives are Canadian.
I live a few miles from the Canadian border.
I have had several friends from Canada that have come here for care that they could NOT get under Canadian Health Care.
The parking lots at hospitals and clinics have an awful lot of Canadian license plates in the parking lots.
Canadian Health Care sucks.