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dr teeth
07-27-2009, 07:56 PM
I have followed Ron Paul for awhile now, and I have grown increasingly frustrated with the Democratic Party. I wouldn't say I'm implicitly a small government person, but I am against the government transferring trillions of dollars recklessly. Whether it is the Republicans spending on defense or private contractors, or it is the Democrats creating enormous domestic infrastructure funds, the end result is defrauding the tax payers. Even with the best of intentions, this money enters a political system wrought with corruption.

That said, I don't believe in free reign for huge corporations. Corporations aren't people, and should come second to the needs of American citizens. I don't believe in legislating morality in any fashion, other than the protection of an individual's rights. To me the bounds of liberty are only the direct infringement on another's liberty.

I already see birther posts, so I may be in the wrong place. I firmly believe the burden of proof rests with the accuser and not the accused. The politics of personal destruction disgust me, and people using unproven conspiracies to overturn the will of the people is obviously cheap exploitation of xenophobia and racial tensions in our nation. I don't like anyone, who is more interested in political division, than actual issue based agendas.

That said we do have real problems in this country, and my confidence in the Democratic Party has been shaken. Since the bailouts of banks, I've grown very cynical about the integrity of congress. Even with this health care reform debate, I doubt whether the honest interests of American citizens are being advanced. I believe we need to have a system, where an individual has access to necessary health care services. Right now these insurance companies are committing extortion on our nation. I'm not sure the government is a better option, but something needs fixed somewhere.

I have a lot of other opinions, but I was wondering whether this is a place I can learn and share potential solutions for the problems that we all face.

amy31416
07-27-2009, 07:58 PM
I have followed Ron Paul for awhile now, and I have grown increasingly frustrated with the Democratic Party. I wouldn't say I'm implicitly a small government person, but I am against the government transferring trillions of dollars recklessly. Whether it is the Republicans spending on defense or private contractors, or it is the Democrats creating enormous domestic infrastructure funds, the end result is defrauding the tax payers. Even with the best of intentions, this money enters a political system wrought with corruption.

That said, I don't believe in free reign for huge corporations. Corporations aren't people, and should come second to the needs of American citizens. I don't believe in legislating morality in any fashion, other than the protection of an individual's rights. To me the bounds of liberty are only the direct infringement on another's liberty.

I already see birther posts, so I may be in the wrong place. I firmly believe the burden of proof rests with the accuser and not the accused. The politics of personal destruction disgust me, and people using unproven conspiracies to overturn the will of the people is obviously cheap exploitation of xenophobia and racial tensions in our nation. I don't like anyone, who is more interested in political division, than actual issue based agendas.

That said we do have real problems in this country, and my confidence in the Democratic Party has been shaken. Since the bailouts of banks, I've grown very cynical about the integrity of congress. Even with this health care reform debate, I doubt whether the honest interests of American citizens are being advanced. I believe we need to have a system, where an individual has access to necessary health care services. Right now these insurance companies are committing extortion on our nation. I'm not sure the government is a better option, but something needs fixed somewhere.

I have a lot of other opinions, but I was wondering whether this is a place I can learn and share potential solutions for the problem that face us all.

Yes, you're welcome.

I have much respect for classic liberals: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

There just aren't many of them, just as there aren't many true conservatives.

Welcome Dr. Teeth!

yongrel
07-27-2009, 07:59 PM
Please understand that this forum is not representative of the libertarian population. This is the hideous scar on an otherwise handsome movement. Nothing of value is said on the internet for long.

silverhandorder
07-27-2009, 08:00 PM
Dr teeth I think you are more then welcome here. Through discussion we can settle our differences. Even if you are a Big Gov person there is some concessions you can make in order to advance the common goals.

The first part of your intro is right on the money. First we must end this crooked theft that is going on right before our eyes. Then we can fight each other on what is the necessary size of government.

LibertyEagle
07-27-2009, 08:01 PM
You're very welcome here.

Take a look at the forum guidelines, here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22), and if you need to report anything to the Moderators, just press the http://www.ronpaulforums.com/gfx_RedWhiteBlue/buttons/report.gif button.

Cowlesy
07-27-2009, 08:02 PM
sure are welcome here.

We have, let's see: libertarians/libertines/Libertarians/republicans/neo-cons/progressive liberals/classical liberals/anarchists/anarcho-capitalists/paleo-conservatives/conservative democrats/pro-choice/pro-life/pro-israel/pro-palestine/protectionists/free-traders/constitutionalists/christians/atheists/agnostics/buddhists/jews/daoists/muslims/flying-spaghetti-monsterists --- some trolls, some nice people, some not-so-nice people.

Check it out, jump into any discussion and if any of the big bully posters start getting snippy with you please flag the post :)

Welcome to the discussion!

heavenlyboy34
07-27-2009, 08:03 PM
Yesh, you're welcome here, OP. ~hugs~

Cowlesy
07-27-2009, 08:03 PM
This is the hideous scar on an otherwise handsome movement.

Ouch!

Reason
07-27-2009, 08:03 PM
Please understand that this forum is not representative of the libertarian population. This is the hideous scar on an otherwise handsome movement. Nothing of value is said on the internet for long.

This forum isn't really representative of anything.

The group of people here disagree with each other more than any other group in current existence lol

It's good though.

Disagreement and dissent create exposure to vast numbers of ideas and opinions that you would never have been exposed to otherwise.

dr teeth
07-27-2009, 08:06 PM
Thank you everyone. I really enjoy trying to learn from everyone before making my mind up.

Lavoro
07-27-2009, 08:07 PM
Whether it is the Republicans spending on defense

Defense is proscribed in the Constitution. That said, Iraq and to a lesser extent Afghanistan don't count.


That said, I don't believe in free reign for huge corporations. Corporations aren't people, and should come second to the needs of American citizens.

Corporations are a cooperative of Americans exercising their rights. Therefore, the government cannot punish and extort them to "protect" peoples' "rights", as liberals traditionally define them.


I firmly believe the burden of proof rests with the accuser and not the accused.

The Pretender just needs to show his real COLB and all of this Birther stuff will go away. The fact that he doesn't brings serious doubts as to his legitimacy.


I believe we need to have a system, where an individual has access to necessary health care services.

People do have access to healthcare. If you go to any emergency room, you will get the life-saving medical treatment you need. That said, you must understand expensive treatments are goods, and you must pay for them yourself and not steal from others to pay for them.


I have a lot of other opinions, but I was wondering whether this is a place I can learn and share potential solutions for the problem that face us all.
Reply With Quote

This is a very intellectually driven forum and you will learn a lot. We have no use for political correctness and you will not always like what you hear.

Cowlesy
07-27-2009, 08:08 PM
Dr Teeth --- Here is an outstanding thread that I think is a must-view for members.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=193632

erowe1
07-27-2009, 08:10 PM
DrTeeth, Just peruse the forums and see for yourself. There are a lot of liberals here. You won't have to look far to see that just today we're had active threads supporting a federal law to monitor vote counting, a poll showing Dennis Kucinich to be the second most popular congressman among forum members, and a vigorous argument in favor of seeing this country sink even deeper into its leftist love affair with democracy. So yeah, I'd say liberals are welcome. The question is, are conservatives.

Pennsylvania
07-27-2009, 08:11 PM
Dr. Teeth, welcome. I certainly won't mind if you hang around.

amy31416
07-27-2009, 08:11 PM
Dr Teeth --- Here is an outstanding thread that I think is a must-view for members.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=193632

How is RPHawaii these days? Still out touring America, spreading the word?

erowe1
07-27-2009, 08:12 PM
Defense is proscribed in the Constitution.

Defense is proscribed in the Constitution? I think you meant the exact opposite of that. The preamble specifically mentions providing for the common defense as one of its purposes.

Liberty Star
07-27-2009, 08:15 PM
Pro freedom libs are welcome. Neoconish , pro elective bloodshed liberals while do need our love ( love the criminal, hate the crime ) and more than that they need education but technically they could be shunned.

Lavoro
07-27-2009, 08:15 PM
Defense is proscribed in the Constitution? I think you meant the exact opposite of that. The preamble specifically mentions providing for the common defense as one of its purposes.

You're right, I did mean the opposite.

RCA
07-27-2009, 08:17 PM
Dr. Teeth,

You are very welcome here. I don't think there is a single member whose political views hasn't been changed in some form or fashion since they came here.

In addition, Ron Paul's presidential campaign supporters were made up of people from all over the political spectrum. Why? Because he is REAL. No matter what your political slant, that is something that is hard to come by in a politician.

Good luck with your Liberty Forest adventures. See the links in my signature for some valuable information.

:)

ClayTrainor
07-27-2009, 08:19 PM
you sound like a reasonable individual Dr. Teeth, and i look forward to your contributions in future threads.

You will find opinions you disagree with, i'm sure, and people will challenge you on your beliefs. You will also find some opinions that you will strongly agree with, and someone who disagrees will be there to challenge you again. :)

This forum is a mess of people who "believe" various things, but *most* of us are united in our belief of the maximum amount of choice for individuals, in all aspects of life.

amy31416
07-27-2009, 08:20 PM
I think we've got to consider the fact that a lot of Dems have supported HR 1207 and even admit to ourselves that a self-described socialist put S 604 up for the Senate.

Most of the left and right agree on the foundations, we just continually nitpick over the specifics. If we focus on our economy and our foreign policy, we have a hell of a lot in common with the left-wing, who are, like drteeth, getting rather fed up with the continuation and expansion of Bush's policies by Obama.

We can argue domestic policy after we do something to save the country from a complete collapse, ala the Roman Empire.

Even then, most of us have to admit that we have a lot in common with liberals because the majority of us are for marijuana legalization, gay marriage, an end to the tyrannical police state.

I truly think that the only things that separate us are abortion and the 2nd Amendment. I'll give on abortion because, while I think it's wrong, I also recognize that making it illegal isn't the answer.

I won't give on the 2nd Amendment though, and I don't think that anyone with a thorough understanding of it would either. :)

malkusm
07-27-2009, 08:21 PM
To Dr. Teeth -

Please recognize that there are people here who are not representative of Ron Paul's viewpoints, or the viewpoints of liberty. I don't know much about your political background, but there are many members here who are sympathetic to the views of Kucinich, as well as sympathizers of Palin. A lot of people are neither...I'm just pointing out the diversity of viewpoints that exist here.

There are also a lot of people who have a VAST amount of knowledge on the subjects of economics, American and World history, and (especially) political philosophy. I hope you will take advantage of these unique resources that we have to offer here, despite the work required to extract the good information from the rest.

Some good websites to visit if you haven't already (don't worry if you don't immediately agree with everything you see):

www.mises.org

www.ronpaullibrary.org

www.lewrockwell.com

www.campaignforliberty.com

www.yaliberty.org

If you have any questions about the forums or about the philosophy of liberty, don't hesitate to contact me via private message (just click on my name).

Welcome!

dr teeth
07-27-2009, 08:22 PM
Pro freedom libs are welcome. Neoconish , pro elective bloodshed liberals while do need our love ( love the criminal, hate the crime ) and more than that they need education but technically they could be shunned.

I'm definitely not neoconish. I don't believe the United States is an empire, and we shouldn't be exerting our influence anywhere. Our system of government will be a good example, but that is the extent of it. When it comes to military force, I don't believe military force is to ever be used as a tool of influence. Redefining the word defense, doesn't make it ok. I don't believe the government should be pro-growth, or supply side focused economically. They shouldn't be choosing sides.

emazur
07-27-2009, 08:22 PM
Welcome aboard. As it has been said, there is a lot of disagreement among the libertarians here, but I think almost all of us oppose the wars and the outrageous government spending. You will certainly read some frustrating posts, but I'm sure you would also if you were visiting a message board for Democrats and liberals.

As for the free reign of corporations, I think you'll find they have gained their power because government got in bed with them. As Ayn Rand said, "capitalists with government help are the worst of all economic phenomenon".

Liberty Star
07-27-2009, 08:25 PM
I'm definitely not neoconish. I don't believe the United States is an empire, and we shouldn't be exerting our influence anywhere. Our system of government will be a good example, but that is the extent of it. When it comes to military force, I don't believe military force is to ever be used as a tool of influence. Redefining the word defense, doesn't make it ok. I don't believe the government should be pro-growth, or supply side focused economically. They shouldn't be choosing sides.

I was joking about last part :)

You are welcome.

If it were upto me, anyone and everyone would be always welcome here regardless of political stripes. Collision of ideas and civil discourse is always a good thing.

angelatc
07-27-2009, 08:28 PM
Yes, you're certainly welcome here. It's a big tent. But like you've already noticed, you have to wade through the truthers and the birthers sometimes. Those of us that have been here a while tend to sort of just leave them to their ways, and they leave us to ours. That's the whole "freedom" thing in action.

Ron Paul has said they follow him because they know that if he was elected, he'd leave them alone. He's also said that he doesn't believe in the inside-job theory, however he does believe that government institutions are covering up inefficiencies, ineptness and bureaucracies. When asked directly whether he supported the theories of "truthers" he responded with "absolutely not".

I don't know that he's made a statement on the birth certificate thing, but if it's any consolation I don't believe any of it's true. If it were, Hillary would have dug it up. If not her, then McCain.

tangent4ronpaul
07-27-2009, 08:28 PM
WOO, HOO! - FRESH MEAT!

someone grab the marshmallows!

Welcome Aboard Dr. Teeth

-t

Time for Change
07-27-2009, 08:29 PM
You are welcome here, by all means.
You will see all sorts of tangential opinions and wacky arguments over irrelevant issues. Lots of differing personalities and communication skills give this place great entertainment value.

I left the democratic party because the democratic party left me.
The republican party lost its roots too and left me with another glowing disappointment.

Both have merged into the republicrat party where "More of the same" is the standard,
with little variance from the plans to tax and spend irresponsibly.

Makes me crazy!

This healthcare reform is just plain silliness...and I am still not convinced that this is not just another distraction from bigger issues.

Seriously, there are no people dying in the streets.
I believe we need to have a system, where an individual has access to necessary health care services. Everyone in this nation DOES have access to these treatments.
The problem is that everyone is so wrapped up in having insurance, a big racket in itself; they forget one can easily negotiate with these healthcare providers for self-funded treatments and save like shopping at geico...lol

Anyway, welcome aboard...
The time of partisan politics is rapidly fading away as more Americans like ourselves wake up to the fact that a deep rooted problem exists in DC and it is not solely attributed to the figurehead POTUS, it is the representatives we need to rein in.

A changing of the guard if approaching…it is up to us to make sure we do not end up with a new face for the same old thievery and deceit.

JeNNiF00F00
07-27-2009, 08:33 PM
Welcome to the forums! This place is great if you are wanting to debate on topics, or just read and learn at the same time. There are a lot of intellectual people here who analyze politics and current events and give many different perspectives. I have learned so much on these forums. Its a great place to visit :)

Bradley in DC
07-27-2009, 08:44 PM
dr teeth,

I've worked with LOTS of left-right-libertarian coalitions for several years on many topics. There is a lot of common ground for
open, accountable government (transparency, whistleblower protection, FOIA, 1207, etc.),
against corporate welfare (there is much of it in the cap and trade bill as well as the health care ones--and military spending, and export promotion, and ....),
a non-interventionist foreign policy (neocons need not apply), and
privacy and civil liberties and the rule of law


So, yes, welcome! :)

EDIT: Oh, and I still consider myself a liberal, in the Old Taft sense--he called himself an "old-fashioned liberal" to differentiate himself from the FDR variety.

Brian4Liberty
07-27-2009, 08:54 PM
Sure, everyone is welcome! Classical liberals fit right in. Thick skin recommended. ;)

Here's another place for you to get up to speed. Ron Paul's Texas Straight Talk:

http://www.house.gov/paul/

Mini-Me
07-27-2009, 08:57 PM
I have followed Ron Paul for awhile now, and I have grown increasingly frustrated with the Democratic Party. I wouldn't say I'm implicitly a small government person, but I am against the government transferring trillions of dollars recklessly. Whether it is the Republicans spending on defense or private contractors, or it is the Democrats creating enormous domestic infrastructure funds, the end result is defrauding the tax payers. Even with the best of intentions, this money enters a political system wrought with corruption.

That said, I don't believe in free reign for huge corporations. Corporations aren't people, and should come second to the needs of American citizens. I don't believe in legislating morality in any fashion, other than the protection of an individual's rights. To me the bounds of liberty are only the direct infringement on another's liberty.

I already see birther posts, so I may be in the wrong place. I firmly believe the burden of proof rests with the accuser and not the accused. The politics of personal destruction disgust me, and people using unproven conspiracies to overturn the will of the people is obviously cheap exploitation of xenophobia and racial tensions in our nation. I don't like anyone, who is more interested in political division, than actual issue based agendas.

That said we do have real problems in this country, and my confidence in the Democratic Party has been shaken. Since the bailouts of banks, I've grown very cynical about the integrity of congress. Even with this health care reform debate, I doubt whether the honest interests of American citizens are being advanced. I believe we need to have a system, where an individual has access to necessary health care services. Right now these insurance companies are committing extortion on our nation. I'm not sure the government is a better option, but something needs fixed somewhere.

I have a lot of other opinions, but I was wondering whether this is a place I can learn and share potential solutions for the problems that we all face.

I'll probably end up vehemently disagreeing with you on a number of issues, but you're definitely welcome here in my book. :) You won't see a lot of liberals here (almost any) anymore, since most have either become far more libertarian as time has gone on (sometimes all the way into hardcore anarcho-capitalism), or they've gotten sick of their polar opposites here and left for safer forums. We definitely need more fresh meat...errr, fresh blood...well, you know. At the very least, we need more borderline normal people to dilute some of the ugliness. As Brian4Liberty said, it's going to take some thick skin. I suggest avoiding the Hot Topics forum if you're pregnant, over forty, or have heart problems.

Seriously though, try not to get discouraged by some of the ugly stuff you see though. There are ALL types of posters here. That includes some really intelligent people, and it also includes people who will fit any possible definition you might have for the term "lunatic fringe" (and that's coming from someone with a pretty narrow definition of the latter...). The only thing we all really have in common is wanting to shrink the size of the federal government.

Basically, Andrew-Austin's post below is right: I'm basically trying to not scare you off...and to warn you that it's going to take some resolve not to be scared off. The moderators here have some pretty legendary patience for certain jaw-dropping tripe that would earn instant perma-bans almost anywhere else.

Andrew-Austin
07-27-2009, 08:58 PM
summary translations of some of the posts in here:

--"Sssh, no one scare him away by saying something radical."

--"Dr. Teeth please don't make generalizations about libertarians based on some of the d-bags on this forum that I happen to disagree with".


I won't give on the 2nd Amendment though, and I don't think that anyone with a thorough understanding of it would either.

Dr. Teeth if you pick just one issue to debate the forum's consensus on, make it about the right to bear arms. It will be a blast for us, and a good introductory look in to the mind of a libertarian regarding 'unintended consequences', individual rights, class conflict, and all sorts of meaty topics.

tremendoustie
07-27-2009, 09:03 PM
Welcome!! :)

*auora borialis, shinin' down on dallas ... can you picture that!*

BenIsForRon
07-27-2009, 09:05 PM
Totally welcome, I hope you believe in global warming, I need some backup.

jmlfod87
07-27-2009, 09:08 PM
Yes, of course liberals are welcome on this forum. Just be warned that the more you read these boards the less likely you are to remain a liberal.

Here are some good starting points for your conversion:

www.lewrockwell.com

www.mises.org

www.reason.com

amy31416
07-27-2009, 09:13 PM
Oh, and I'll add one more bonus to this site over many "liberal" sites--you can pretty much say whatever you want, as long as you aren't inciting violence or just throwing out stupid ad hominem attacks.

Our mods/admins are pretty damned great.

dannno
07-27-2009, 09:25 PM
....


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=189432

?

wizardwatson
07-27-2009, 09:27 PM
Yes, of course liberals are welcome on this forum. Just be warned that the more you read these boards the less likely you are to remain a liberal.

Here are some good starting points for your conversion:

www.lewrockwell.com

www.mises.org

www.reason.com

I would avoid Mises.org forums. Mises.org is great as a reference, but you're better off learning theory here rather than the forums over there. Here, they don't wear their underwear quite so tight.

Dr.3D
07-27-2009, 09:38 PM
Our mods/admins are pretty damned great.


Yep, they are pretty liberal about what is allowed here. ;)

CUnknown
07-27-2009, 09:45 PM
Hi Dr. Teeth! Yes, you are welcome! We need more left-libertarians here to help us win arguments. :D If you ever feel unwelcome, the key is to just shrug it off and keep posting. I would be gone by now after my first global warming shouting match here if I hadn't learned that lession. ;)

Ron Paul attracts a diverse crowd that occasionally tears at each other's throats, but when we leave these hallowed halls and go to the real world and talk to our first neocon or Obama-worshipper... that's when we find out how much we really love each other. :o

malkusm
07-27-2009, 09:56 PM
Ron Paul attracts a diverse crowd that occasionally tears at each other's throats, but when we leave these hallowed halls and go to the real world and talk to our first neocon or Obama-worshipper... that's when we find out how much we really love each other. :o

QFT :)

The minor differences that everyone has here are nothing compared to the ridiculous spending and economic burdens that the Democratic party leadership would impose, or the disastrous foreign policy and domestic wiretapping that the GOP offers (not to mention the drug war). ;)

TortoiseDream
07-27-2009, 10:00 PM
I have followed Ron Paul for awhile now, and I have grown increasingly frustrated with the Democratic Party. I wouldn't say I'm implicitly a small government person, but I am against the government transferring trillions of dollars recklessly. Whether it is the Republicans spending on defense or private contractors, or it is the Democrats creating enormous domestic infrastructure funds, the end result is defrauding the tax payers. Even with the best of intentions, this money enters a political system wrought with corruption.

That said, I don't believe in free reign for huge corporations. Corporations aren't people, and should come second to the needs of American citizens. I don't believe in legislating morality in any fashion, other than the protection of an individual's rights. To me the bounds of liberty are only the direct infringement on another's liberty.

I already see birther posts, so I may be in the wrong place. I firmly believe the burden of proof rests with the accuser and not the accused. The politics of personal destruction disgust me, and people using unproven conspiracies to overturn the will of the people is obviously cheap exploitation of xenophobia and racial tensions in our nation. I don't like anyone, who is more interested in political division, than actual issue based agendas.

That said we do have real problems in this country, and my confidence in the Democratic Party has been shaken. Since the bailouts of banks, I've grown very cynical about the integrity of congress. Even with this health care reform debate, I doubt whether the honest interests of American citizens are being advanced. I believe we need to have a system, where an individual has access to necessary health care services. Right now these insurance companies are committing extortion on our nation. I'm not sure the government is a better option, but something needs fixed somewhere.

I have a lot of other opinions, but I was wondering whether this is a place I can learn and share potential solutions for the problems that we all face.

Though we may not agree on everything, anyone willing to improve the conditions of human life is a friend to me. :)

heavenlyboy34
07-27-2009, 10:16 PM
btw, I am amused by your name, Dr Teeth! :)

MRoCkEd
08-03-2009, 08:33 PM
Get away, Statist!!!

Just kidding.
Welcome.
www.mises.org is your friend

dr. hfn
08-03-2009, 08:36 PM
i'm a progressive libertarian. You are greatly welcome! I was a socialist before ron paul!

BuddyRey
08-03-2009, 09:24 PM
Of course you and all independent-minded liberals are welcome!

If liberals weren't welcome to this site, I never would have had the chance to gain so much in the way of understanding of the dynamics of political and corporate power. RPF was instrumental in completely reforming my political philosophy, from Kucinich-style liberal to Anarcho-Capitalist.