Vote to discuss the Obama natural born citizenship issue on "Freedom Watch"

[Njon]

Do you want to see the Obama natural born citizenship issue discussed on Freedom Watch with Judge Andrew Napolitano? Then vote to have Mario Apuzzo, Esq. on the show at http://freedomwatch.uservoice.com/pages/16626-freedom-watch-guest-suggestions/suggestions/268573-mario-apuzzo-esq-

Mr. Apuzzo is the plaintiffs' attorney in a promising case challenging Obama's natural born citizenship qualifications. If you aren't familiar with the case, check out http://puzo1.blogspot.com/

[Reason]

Do you want to see the Obama natural born citizenship issue discussed on Freedom Watch with Judge Andrew Napolitano?

No.

Complete waste of time and effort.

We have legitimate issues to be spending time on.

[Njon]

No.

Complete waste of time and effort.

We have legitimate issues to be spending time on.


Ensuring that the president is Constitutionally-qualified should be considered a legitimate issue by anyone who cares for the republic.

[Reason]

Ensuring that the president is Constitutionally-qualified should be considered a legitimate issue by anyone who cares for the republic.

http://canuckjihad.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/crybaby.png?w=300&h=425

[Njon]

http://canuckjihad.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/crybaby.png?w=300&h=425

So basically you're giving the impression that you don't care about the Constitution, and because you can't defend your apathy you resort to immature attack.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[NerveShocker]

The fact that this is still an issue disturbs me.. I'm tired of hearing random reasons why Obama isn't eligible and wish this issue could be settled already. The problem is it hasn't.. so far as I can tell which just like any other conspiracy if questions are left unanswered it will only lead to more suspicion and distrust. I'd rather have this person on freedom watch and have them give their case to a group of people who won't take b.s and find out if their is any merit to this argument or not.

[TheConstitutionLives]

I vote NO as well. We pick our battles and this ain't at the top in level of importance.

[tribute_13]

Ensuring that the president is Constitutionally-qualified should be considered a legitimate issue by anyone who cares for the republic.

Theres no fucking reason to continue thinking he is illegal. Instead you need to be focusing your resources and attention to actually bringing to light legitimate claims.

[FrankRep]

This is just a distraction to the real issues.

[Sandra]

I really think those that try to keep the birth certificate to the forefront are trying to destroy the Liberty. They keep making claims then say they don't have to prove them. It's an old trick to distract, make false claims, then place the burden of proof onto the accused.

[Njon]

Theres no fucking reason to continue thinking he is illegal. Instead you need to be focusing your resources and attention to actually bringing to light legitimate claims.

As to Kenya:

1. See the Berg v. Obama affidavits by Reverend Kweli Shuhubia and Bishop Ron McRae at http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/PROJECTS/Obama/Evidence/AFFIDAVITexhibit2.pdf and http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/PROJECTS/Obama/Evidence/AFFIDAVIT-Bishop.pdf

2. Kenyan Ambassador Peter N.R.O. Ogego stated in a November 6, 2008 radio interview that Obama was born in Kenya. Ambassador Ogego later claimed that he was speaking about Obama's father, but that doesn't seem to fit the context of his original statement. The radio host asked, "One more quick question, President-elect Obama's birthplace over in Kenya, is that going to be a national spot to go visit, where he was born?" Ambassador Ogego replied, "It's already an attraction. His paternal grandmother is still alive." It seems that the Ambassador was not referring to Barack Obama Sr. because he said that the paternal grandmother was still alive; this appears to be a reference to Obama (Jr.) himself, the Kenyan birthplace of whom the Ambassador said was well-known. The audio file of this interview is available at http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=82031


As to Obama's father's birth, Vattel's Law of Nations --- which held great prominence in early America; see http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/624086/Emmerich-de-Vattel --- clearly shows us that Obama could not be a natural born citizen because his father was never a citizen; see page 101 at http://books.google.com/books?id=0B0MAAAAYAAJ&pg=PP7

Obama even admitted at http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate (website now off-line) that he held British citizenship at birth. Even if he was born in Hawaii, he is not and can never be natural born.

[Reason]

non-issue

[Njon]

Are you kidding the ambassador WAS talking about Obama's father, you could clearly tell that the ambassador had a hard time communicating and in context was talking about Barack Obama's father.

Obama's father's paternal grandmother has likely been dead for quite some time. The paternal grandmother that is alive, however, is Obama's own. The ambassador said the Kenyan birthplace of an Obama whose paternal grandmother was still alive is an attraction in Kenya. That doesn't strike you as suspicious?

Besides, the more important argument is the fact that even if he was born in Hawaii, Obama still can't be natural born because of his father's citizenship.

[Njon]

They keep making claims then say they don't have to prove them. It's an old trick to distract, make false claims, then place the burden of proof onto the accused.

Besides the fact that there is plenty of proof to at least warrant an investigation or a trial, note this:

"The burden of establishing a delegation of power to the United States [...] is upon those making the claim."
Bute v. Illinois, 333 U.S. 653 (1948). Cited at the U.S. Supreme Court Center. Justia & Oyez & Forms WorkFlow. Accessed July 6, 2009. http://supreme.justia.com/us/333/640/case.html

While this quote immediately seems to involve the Constitutional structure of federal power, nevertheless the principle can be applied insofar as Congress' certification of the Electoral College vote purported to authorize Obama to exercise federal presidential authority, and Obama's taking the oath of office indicates that he concurred with that assessment and assumed the delegation of the presidential powers to himself. Obama and Congress have yet to properly demonstrate his qualifications.

[Sandra]

Freedom Watch won't cover it. They are looking for issues that will change this country, not your agenda. Stormfront might support ya. I hear their forum is pretty receptive to the birther issue.

[FrankRep]

I'd rather talk about Obama's attack on states rights, promoting Socialist healthcare and the Cap and Trade Tax.

The birth issue is a dead end.

[Sandra]

I'd rather talk about Obama's attack on states rights, promoting Socialist healthcare and the Cap and Trade Tax.

The birth issue is a dead end.

+1

especially now that health care reform is being rammed through Congress.

[RonPaulwillWin]

I don't think it should be discussed. As someone said earlier, there are much greater issues to bring up.

[Epic]

Let's focus on the intellectual and educational issues

[lynnf]

voted


lynn

[Njon]

Freedom Watch won't cover it. They are looking for issues that will change this country, not your agenda. Stormfront might support ya. I hear their forum is pretty receptive to the birther issue.

Stormfront?

Why is it that you have chosen to resort to an apparent neo-Nazi racist accusation when someone has made an argument that you are seemingly incapable of answering?

Dr. Alan Keyes is black, and he's one of the top people pursuing this issue. Would you accuse Dr. Keyes of being a self-hating black man, and encourage him to visit Stormfront?

[Njon]

I'd rather talk about Obama's attack on states rights, promoting Socialist healthcare and the Cap and Trade Tax.

The birth issue is a dead end.

If it is publicly made known that Obama is ineligible, his whole agenda will come collapsing down.

[Dreamofunity]

If it is publicly made known that Obama is ineligible, his whole agenda will come collapsing down.

And then Biden will just continue it.

Non-issue, or at least not one I want to see discussed on FreedomWatch.

By all means feel free to continue your tirade, but hopefully it doesn't make it on to FW.

[Njon]

And then Biden will just continue it.

Non-issue, or at least not one I want to see discussed on FreedomWatch.

By all means feel free to continue your tirade, but hopefully it doesn't make it on to FW.

I don't see how anything I've said constitutes a "tirade."

Also, if Obama is disqualified, it's possible Biden may also be. So what would happen? Pelosi? A new election? Congress chooses the president? Something else? I don't know. But at least it would put a huge stall in the big government agenda, for a time.

[qh4dotcom]

I'd rather talk about Obama's attack on states rights, promoting Socialist healthcare and the Cap and Trade Tax.

The birth issue is a dead end.

If the socialistic health care and Cap & Trade get passed then the Obama eligibility issue is the ONLY way to reverse that...when it is proven that he is an unconstitutional president, all the laws he has signed become invalid...do you want the stimulus to go away? any future health care or cap and trade law to go away? All his big spending, anti-constitutional and socialistic crap to go away? Yes I know it will be a big mess to undo all the damage he has done but it's better than letting the economy collapse and the nation to go bankrupt.

[RevolutionSD]

Do you want to see the Obama natural born citizenship issue discussed on Freedom Watch with Judge Andrew Napolitano? Then vote to have Mario Apuzzo, Esq. on the show at http://freedomwatch.uservoice.com/pages/16626-freedom-watch-guest-suggestions/suggestions/268573-mario-apuzzo-esq-

Mr. Apuzzo is the plaintiffs' attorney in a promising case challenging Obama's natural born citizenship qualifications. If you aren't familiar with the case, check out http://puzo1.blogspot.com/

No, I won't vote for that.

This is what is called a DISTRACTION issue, they want us to argue about this stupid rule while they steal our money and destroy the economy.

EVEN IF somehow, someone were to prove that Obama was not US-born, then we have fucking Joe BIDEN as president!!!! Victory?? I think not.

[Njon]

This is what is called a DISTRACTION issue, they want us to argue about this stupid rule while they steal our money and destroy the economy.

It's not stupid; it's about principle. If Obama is not Constitutionally-qualified, then he is not legally able to be president.


EVEN IF somehow, someone were to prove that Obama was not US-born, then we have fucking Joe BIDEN as president!!!! Victory?? I think not.

I think Biden may be better than Obama. I believe both are New World Order sellouts, but Biden is less dangerous at this time. However, as I mentioned at http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2229793&postcount=26 if Obama is ineligible then that may also disqualify Biden. I don't know.

[Maestro232]

Actually, we should hit Obama from every angle possible and do our best to stop his agenda. There are people willing to spend time and money addressing the birther debate, so we should support it. Nobody is saying we pursue this to the exclusion of his other atrocities.

[Njon]

Bump

[free.alive]

Nooooooo!!


Discuss a strictly conspiratorial issue on the one show attempting to bring libertarianism into mainstream TV? Are you nuts?

You have no idea the political consequences of this. Let those who have the connections and resources to actually ferret out information deal with it. Unless you're loaded and well connected, that's not us.

This issue will only serve to discredit us. If we were to ignore it and it eventually came out that it was true, we lose nothing at all. We don't need to advocate a position on every issue, just the ones which are our core issues.

[BlackTerrel]

Freedom Watch won't cover it. They are looking for issues that will change this country, not your agenda. Stormfront might support ya. I hear their forum is pretty receptive to the birther issue.

Pretty much. How many on this thread post on both forums?

[CountryboyRonPaul]

I believe your average Democrat, and the majority of independants have a much more open mind to Ron Paul than the rest of the GOP.

If you want to try and alienate those people, this would be a good idea.

[paulitics]

No, this is kryptonite. Lou Dobbs may have ended his career. His ratings are in the tank. I think they will pull the plug on him, and have more than enough reason to just by ratings alone.

This only helps Obama, and the timing is abysmal considering all that they are going to ram through. Besides, the liberals don't hate us as much as the GOP yet. Let's not make more enemies than we need to.

[max]

What's wrong with you people?


Cant you see that if Obama turns out to be an imposter, the skepticism towards government and media that will ensue will serve as a great education for the sheep.

How can you say that a total discrediting of the pro-Obama media would not benefit this nation? Until we totaly discredit and take down the media, you can forget about educating the sheep.

The media is our number one enemy and this issue is their worst nightmare......

All the media propaganda in the world cannot change these simple truths

1. OBAMA REFUSES TO PROVIDE THE ORIGINAL BIRTH CERFICATE.

2. OBAMA IS SPENDING MILLIONS TO HIRE LAWYERS TO FIGHT THE LAWSUITS

3. OBAMA HAS AN OPPORTUNITY HERE TO EMBARASSS HIS ENEMIES...YET HE STILL REFUSES TO SHOW THE BC.

These points demand answers...

But you fools would rather spend your time lecturing sheeple about The Federalist Papers and Austrian Economics!....Good Luck

[max]

No, this is kryptonite. Lou Dobbs may have ended his career. His ratings are in the tank. I think they will pull the plug on him, and have more than enough reason to just by ratings alone.

This only helps Obama, and the timing is abysmal considering all that they are going to ram through. Besides, the liberals don't hate us as much as the GOP yet. Let's not make more enemies than we need to.

yep...let evil doers and criminals walk just so the media won't call us "extremists". Let our enemies set the rules of debate and see where that gets you

[Njon]

Nooooooo!!


Discuss a strictly conspiratorial issue on the one show attempting to bring libertarianism into mainstream TV?

Wrong; the issue of Obama's Kenyan (British) citizenship at birth is not conspiratorial at all. That's entirely a historical/legal matter.

[Njon]

I believe your average Democrat, and the majority of independants have a much more open mind to Ron Paul than the rest of the GOP.

If you want to try and alienate those people, this would be a good idea.

The Judge had Alex Jones on his show. I like Alex, but if you want to talk about alienating people, having the man seen as the 'father' of the 9/11 truth movement on the show would have done it. But did having Jones on hurt the show? Apparently not.

[tonesforjonesbones]

I say ANYTHING can be talked about. I saw Anne Coulter and Huckabee on Geraldo berating Lou Dobbs and saying there was nothing to the birther issue. I really don't think Lou Dobbs has control over what is on CNN, in other words..if CNN didn't want him to have that on his show I'm QUITE sure it would have not occurred.

These are naysayers here...and I'm really sick of STORMFRONT being thrown at ROn Paul supporters on this forum. Tones

[revolutionary8]

I say ANYTHING can be talked about. I saw Anne Coulter and Huckabee on Geraldo berating Lou Dobbs and saying there was nothing to the birther issue. I really don't think Lou Dobbs has control over what is on CNN, in other words..if CNN didn't want him to have that on his show I'm QUITE sure it would have not occurred.

These are naysayers here...and I'm really sick of STORMFRONT being thrown at ROn Paul supporters on this forum. Tones

is this a joke?
I sure hope so.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Do I look like i'm jokin?

CNN ..nor any other news channel would allow something to go out unless it had been approved by someone above..ffs. Common sense.

I believe AN:YTHING could be talked about...and especially something as important as this. I smell something ROTTEN in DENMARK with this birth certificate business. TONES

[surGeon]

No. Compared to all the other unconstitutional things the government does, this is minor at best.

[Njon]

No. Compared to all the other unconstitutional things the government does, this is minor at best.

Allowing someone who was a foreign citizen to be president is not a minor issue; it can carry immense consequences for foreign affairs. On the subject of officials that deal with foreign matters, Madison said:

“It is to be presumed that, in transactions with foreign countries, those who regulate them will feel the whole force of national attachment to their country. The contrast being between their own nation and a foreign nation, is it not presumable they will, as far as possible, advance the interest of their own country?”
Quoted from: Madison. “Thursday, June 19, 1788″ (misprinted by Jonathan Elliot as “Wednesday, June 18, 1788″). Jonathan Elliot. “The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution.” The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. 1836. Book compiled by Jon Roland of The Constitution Society, September 5, 1995 at http://www.constitution.org/elliot.htm Updated October 21, 2001. Specific section which was cited accessed July 29, 2009. http://www.constitution.org/rc/rat_va_16.htm

Consequently, then, someone who held foreign citizenship may well have a conflict of interest.

[surGeon]

Allowing someone who was a foreign citizen to be president is not a minor issue; it can carry immense consequences for foreign affairs. On the subject of officials that deal with foreign matters, Madison said:

“It is to be presumed that, in transactions with foreign countries, those who regulate them will feel the whole force of national attachment to their country. The contrast being between their own nation and a foreign nation, is it not presumable they will, as far as possible, advance the interest of their own country?”
Quoted from: Madison. “Thursday, June 19, 1788″ (misprinted by Jonathan Elliot as “Wednesday, June 18, 1788″). Jonathan Elliot. “The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution.” The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. 1836. Book compiled by Jon Roland of The Constitution Society, September 5, 1995 at http://www.constitution.org/elliot.htm Updated October 21, 2001. Specific section which was cited accessed July 29, 2009. http://www.constitution.org/rc/rat_va_16.htm

Consequently, then, someone who held foreign citizenship may well have a conflict of interest.

Great, Obama will let Kenya trample all over us in foreign affairs. Not my biggest concern about his administration.

It's not helpful to our cause, it's a non-issue, it's probably not true and even if it was, he still wouldn't get impeached.

[revolutionary8]

Great, Obama will let Kenya trample all over us in foreign affairs. Not my biggest concern about his administration.

It's not helpful to our cause, it's a non-issue, it's probably not true and even if it was, he still wouldn't get impeached.

let THE PEOPLE decide where "the issues" are...
(dwink)
and FUCK the pc crowd.

PAUSE at 1:12

YouTube - Gang Starr - Code Of The Streets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT4jQld_FiE)

[Njon]

Great, Obama will let Kenya trample all over us in foreign affairs. Not my biggest concern about his administration.

It's not just Kenya; it's also England. But in any case, the specifics of which country don't matter; it's the principle that matters.


It's not helpful to our cause, it's a non-issue, it's probably not true and even if it was, he still wouldn't get impeached.

There is no 'probably' about it. It is certain that Obama possessed foreign citizenship. Go to Obama's own campaign website at http://www.fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate.html and read what it says at the bottom of that page. It blatantly admits that he held foreign citizenship.

[dannno]

Great, Obama will let Kenya trample all over us in foreign affairs. Not my biggest concern about his administration.

It's not helpful to our cause, it's a non-issue, it's probably not true and even if it was, he still wouldn't get impeached.

Completely disagree. You really think that if Obama is hiding this from us that other people don't know? You don't think that they aren't blackmailing him on this issue, which is why he is increasing defense spending and completely going along with the establishment quo??

This is our responsibility.

[surGeon]

let THE PEOPLE decide where "the issues" are...
(dwink)
and FUCK the pc crowd.

And I, AS A PERSON, don't care and do not want to hear about it on freedom watch.


It's not just Kenya; it's also England. But in any case, the specifics of which country don't matter; it's the principle that matters.


There is no 'probably' about it. It is certain that Obama possessed foreign citizenship. Go to Obama's own campaign website at http://www.fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate.html and read what it says at the bottom of that page. It blatantly admits that he held foreign citizenship.

It doesn't say in the constitution that you can't have had citizenship in other countries to be president.


No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.




Completely disagree. You really think that if Obama is hiding this from us that other people don't know? You don't think that they aren't blackmailing him on this issue, which is why he is increasing defense spending and completely going along with the establishment quo??

This is our responsibility.

Yes, that must be the reason. The president is getting blackmailed by someone who has an interest in increasing military spending and somehow knows about Obama's true place of birth! That's not convoluted at all.

More likely it's because he's like any other politician though. Occam's razor and all that.

[revolutionary8]

And I, AS A PERSON, don't care and do not want to hear about it on freedom watch.



It doesn't say in the constitution that you can't have had citizenship in other countries to be president.







Yes, that must be the reason. The president is getting blackmailed by someone who has an interest in increasing military spending and somehow knows about Obama's true place of birth! That's not convoluted at all.

More likely it's because he's like any other politician though. Occam's razor and all that.

:rolleyes:
Either you have been BANNED, or you are "new".
how convenient.

[surGeon]

:rolleyes:
Either you have been BANNED, or you are "new".
how convenient.

I'm new. How is that convenient?

[specsaregood]

Since he is a former judge, consitutionalist, legal scholar and not part of the complete tinfoil hat brigade, I would like to hear Mr. Napolitano's opinion on the matter. I think he would be very reasonable and educated on the subject. It would weigh much more heavily with me than the hundreds of armchair scholar's posts I have read on it.

[revolutionary8]

I'm new. How is that convenient?

welcome. :)

[revolutionary8]

Since he is a former judge, consitutionalist, legal scholar and not part of the complete tinfoil hat brigade, I would like to hear Mr. Napolitano's opinion on the matter. I think he would be very reasonable and educated on the subject. It would weigh much more heavily with me than the hundreds of armchair scholar's posts I have read on it.

"tinfoil hat brigade?"
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Find a life.
Preferably one that is not on "re-wind/re-peat"

[specsaregood]

"tinfoil hat brigade?"
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Find a life.
Preferably one that is not on "re-wind/re-peat"

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm a member of that brigade myself. Since the judge is NOT part of it (to my knowledge) he is somebody outside the brigade who's opinion I would value.

Ditto the above in regards to Ron Paul.

Carry on.

[surGeon]

welcome. :)

Thank you. Great to be here.

[specsaregood]

Thank you. Great to be here.

Since you came here you have:
1. Come out against alternative medicines.
2. Promoted direct democracy.
3. Come out against people investigating Obamas eligibility.

How did you happen to find our neck of the internet and why did you decide to register and participate?

Welcome btw.

[revolutionary8]

Since you came here you have:
1. Come out against alternative medicines.
2. Promoted direct democracy.
3. Come out against people investigating Obamas eligibility.

How did you happen to find our neck of the internet and why did you decide to register and participate?

Welcome btw.

^^^^
this.

I WANT TO KNOW WHAT surGEON HAS TO ADD TOWARD THE SOLUTION...

[Njon]

It doesn't say in the constitution that you can't have had citizenship in other countries to be president.

It doesn't spell out those words, but then again, it doesn't spell out a lot of things. That's because the people at the time generally understood what was intended by certain terminology. When we exegete the Constitution, we must place it in the context of how it would have been understood at the time of ratification.

See http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2238016&postcount=6 for some relevant contextual information.

See also http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/2009/07/30/justice-horace-gray-clearly-indicated-wong-kim-ark-was-not-a-natural-born-citizen/

[Njon]

Since he is a former judge, consitutionalist, legal scholar and not part of the complete tinfoil hat brigade, I would like to hear Mr. Napolitano's opinion on the matter. I think he would be very reasonable and educated on the subject. It would weigh much more heavily with me than the hundreds of armchair scholar's posts I have read on it.

Dr. Edwin Vieira is a Constitutional scholar --- one of the greatest I've ever seen --- and he has written articles about the legitimacy of the natural born citizenship issue. You can find some of them in his article archive at http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/edwinA.htm

I do think he might believe in at least some conspiracies, but then again, so may the Judge (after all, the Judge had Alex Jones on his show).

[surGeon]

Since you came here you have:
1. Come out against alternative medicines.
2. Promoted direct democracy.
3. Come out against people investigating Obamas eligibility.

How did you happen to find our neck of the internet and why did you decide to register and participate?

Welcome btw.

1. I didn't realize alternative medicines was one of the central tenets in the Libertarian philosophy or the Constitution. If you would look at that post again you will see that I actually supported your right to use alternative medicine even if I thought it was retarded.
2. So what? Direct democracy seems to a better solution than representative democracy, which has utterly failed us.
3. No. I came out against having it on freedom watch because I think it's already established that he was born here and that it's irrelevant.

I've followed Ron Paul since the campaign and I registered to discuss issues with like minded individuals.


It doesn't spell out those words, but then again, it doesn't spell out a lot of things. That's because the people at the time generally understood what was intended by certain terminology. When we exegete the Constitution, we must place it in the context of how it would have been understood at the time of ratification.

See http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2238016&postcount=6 for some relevant contextual information.

See also http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/2009/07/30/justice-horace-gray-clearly-indicated-wong-kim-ark-was-not-a-natural-born-citizen/

Well, in any case, it's not an important issue in my opinion.

[specsaregood]

1. I didn't realize alternative medicines was one of the central tenets in the Libertarian philosophy or the Constitution. If you would look at that post again you will see that I actually supported your right to use alternative medicine even if I thought it was retarded.

Fair enough, but note: I didn't say you didn't support somebody's right to use it.



2. So what? Direct democracy seems to a better solution than representative democracy, which has utterly failed us.

Some would argue the opposite. For example: how one of the downfalls was the change in how Senators were elected which led to more "democracy" and the loss of the guardian of the individual states.



3. No. I came out against having it on freedom watch because I think it's already established that he was born here and that it's irrelevant.
Many think the "born here" argument is irrelevant; but the father's citizenship is relevant.

You didn't answer my question though. How did you happen to find our little piece of cyberspace and what interested you enough to join in on the fun?
Edit: I see you answered that now.



I've followed Ron Paul since the campaign and I registered to discuss issues with like minded individuals.

Followed? Were you a supporter/voter? Just wondering. Or were you a gravel voter bychance? Assuming based on the direct democracy issue you referenced.

[surGeon]

Fair enough, but note: I didn't say you didn't support somebody's right to use it.


Some would argue the opposite. For example: how one of the downfalls was the change in how Senators were elected which led to more "democracy" and the loss of the guardian of the individual states.


Many think the "born here" argument is irrelevant; but the father's citizenship is relevant.

You didn't answer my question though. How did you happen to find our little piece of cyberspace and what interested you enough to join in on the fun?
Edit: I see you answered that now.


Followed? Were you a supporter/voter? Just wondering. Or were you a gravel voter bychance? Assuming based on the direct democracy issue you referenced.

I'm not an American citizen but I would've voted Ron Paul. Direct democracy is interesting and I haven't made up my mind about it yet, which is why I posted it here.

[specsaregood]

I'm not an American citizen but I would've voted Ron Paul. Direct democracy is interesting and I haven't made up my mind about it yet, which is why I posted it here.

Yeah the direct democracy thing has its advantages and disadvantages. For example, the voter initiative stuff in CA has produced some great results; but I definitely see the possible downsides.

One question though, you say you are not an American citizen yet you used "us"


2. So what? Direct democracy seems to a better solution than representative democracy, which has utterly failed us.
Are you US resident then? Or are you referring to "us" in terms of the citizens of another country?

[Vessol]

Learn to choose your battles please.

End the Fed > Birther Crap

[free.alive]

Here's another reason why (at least the an/cap's among us) this "birther" bs is a total non-issue.

If the person in question here is domestic threat to Liberty or a foreign threat to Liberty, what real difference does it make? Our response should be the same. He is no more or less legitimate in his position and in his actions if he were not born in the US.

If someone's entire raison d'etre is to abort my Liberty, how is it material where the person was born?

[surGeon]

Yeah the direct democracy thing has its advantages and disadvantages. For example, the voter initiative stuff in CA has produced some great results; but I definitely see the possible downsides.

One question though, you say you are not an American citizen yet you used "us"

Are you US resident then? Or are you referring to "us" in terms of the citizens of another country?

It's just easier to use when most people here are Americans. Saves me a lot of explaining and dick waving contests with nationalists who think I'm being anti-American.

Edit: Maybe not the latter so much here since most people here are aware of the shortcomings of governments.

[BlackTerrel]

Cant you see that if Obama turns out to be an imposter, the skepticism towards government and media that will ensue will serve as a great education for the sheep.

Where would this evidence come from.

Scenario #1: Obama is a US citizen (This is what I believe)

Outcome #1: You put in a lot of effort for nothing and hurt your cause.

Scenario #2: You're right. It's a big conspiracy perpetuated by the government and media.

Outcome #2: The government has the resources to forge a birth certificate. They're the government, they're the ones who fucking make them to start with. Therefore you can prove nothing and again you lose.

....What am I missing? Where is the scenario where this is worthwhile?

[idirtify]

Where would this evidence come from.

Scenario #1: Obama is a US citizen (This is what I believe)

Outcome #1: You put in a lot of effort for nothing and hurt your cause.

Scenario #2: You're right. It's a big conspiracy perpetuated by the government and media.

Outcome #2: The government has the resources to forge a birth certificate. They're the government, they're the ones who fucking make them to start with. Therefore you can prove nothing and again you lose.

....What am I missing? Where is the scenario where this is worthwhile?

So your philosophy is: If the government is powerful enough to lie their way out of a jam, the people should not bother confronting it?

If so, maybe you think we should change this saying to: “Question authority…UNLESS YOU THINK THEY WILL LIE.”

Seriously: What am I missing? How is this scenario different?

[Objectivist]

No need to discuss it, just produce an ORIGINAL BC.

[BlackTerrel]

So your philosophy is: If the government is powerful enough to lie their way out of a jam, the people should not bother confronting it?

If so, maybe you think we should change this saying to: “Question authority…UNLESS YOU THINK THEY WILL LIE.”

Seriously: What am I missing? How is this scenario different?

I don't like to do things just for the sake of doing it. I only take action and spend limited resources if I can see at least a chance for a positive outcome.

Can you detail any scenario where our work here could prove definitively that Obama was not born in the US?

[tonesforjonesbones]

Prison Planet has a copy of a new birth certificate from kenya. tones

[andrewh817]

Ensuring that the president is Constitutionally-qualified should be considered a legitimate issue by anyone who cares for the republic.

His policies prove he's not Constitutionally-qualified...... I would rather have a foreign born president who followed everything else in the Constitution than a "native" who didn't.

[free.alive]

I would rather have a foreign born president who followed everything else in the Constitution than a "native" who didn't.


THIS!

In the end, who cares where a tyrant was born?

[free.alive]

In the end, who cares where a tyrant was born?


Oooh. I gotta pat myself on the back. I like that.