Sheriff Mack: Police acted improperly

[Sheriff Mack]

Obama said the cops acted "stupidly." He should have said nothing, but he was
basically correct. I would not have chosen that word (my mother always punished
me for saying "stupid"), but the truth is these cops acted improperly. First of all, Professor Gates was under no obligation to assist or cooperate with the police investigation. He did not have to give them the time of day. If the officer walked inside Gates' home without permission, as Gates said he did, then that would have been the only crime committed that day.
After the police determined it was indeed the Professor's home then they were obligated to leave, and that is exactly what they should have done! There is no such thing as disorderly conduct in your own home! Disorderly conduct is very rarely an appropriate charge outside one's home. Disorderly conduct charges are used by cops as a way of arresting people who have offended them and they use
the charge to show such audacious citizens who the boss really is. It is a result of the cop being offended or having his authority challenged or his pride hurt. If the cops had walked away from Gates and left him to be the only one hearing his rants; what would that have hurt? Was there a threat to the community? Who were the police protecting and what were they serving by arresting this man?
Gates could have called the officers every name in the book or screamed obsenities about their wives and mothers; too bad! The professional officer is smart enough to NOT get trapped by such and walks away. These officers misused their badge and arrested an innocent man. Was Gates a jerk? Yes! Did he commit a crime? No!
Obama should have stayed out of it, but this is the first time he's been right about anything since occupying the White House.

[sparebulb]

That is the way I see it also.

[apropos]

Professor Gates was under no obligation to assist or cooperate with the police investigation.....After the police determined it was indeed the Professor's home then they were obligated to leave, and that is exactly what they should have done!

How do you propose positive identification is accomplished without cooperation from the resident or detainment of the resident while the officer confirms the identify of the resident?

[jmdrake]

Thank you for posting this! I'm glad to see more people starting to understand this is a liberty issue and not a race issue. Under similar circumstance if Gates had been white and called a black officer the N-word that still would NOT have been grounds for an arrest.

Now, lets see Obama stand up for some little person like the 72 y/o white grandma that got tazered for not signing a speeding ticket or the black EMT that got assaulted by the state trooper. (I'm not holding my breath).

[sparebulb]

How do you propose positive identification is accomplished without cooperation from the resident or detainment of the resident while the officer confirms the identify of the resident?

One way would be to ask a neighbor or two if they know if this guy belongs in the house. They would most likely gladly offer up that he indeed is the asshole who owns the house and that he hates white people. Case closed.

[kahless]

Just another unnecessary distraction on a couple of nitwits to divert the public eyes from the expansion of Obama's fascist policies.

[apropos]

One way would be to ask a neighbor or two if they know if this guy belongs in the house. They would most likely gladly offer up that he indeed is the asshole who owns the house and that he hates white people. Case closed.

And if the resident escapes during the neighbors' inquiry or reachable neighbors don't know the occupant?

[sparebulb]

And if the resident escapes during the neighbors' inquiry or reachable neighbors don't know the occupant?

I'm quite sure that Officer Pig wasn't responding alone. Just like the Oklahoma trooper pig assault on the paramedic.

[newbitech]

What I cannot understand about this particular case is why did the officer approach a house with TWO possible suspects committing a burglary by himself?

Why didn't he wait for back up, sit back and observe the home, surround the place?

What if this was a burglary by armed robbers willing to shoot police? I always hear from cops that they have to assume the worst case. It doesn't sound like the cop approaching this house assumed the worst case.

Also, one more thing, did the officer even try to figure out who owned the property and contact them first? For instance, if the home is being rented out then it is likely that the owner of the home would not have identification to prove that the property belonged to them.

Once the officer found that there was no crime being committed, his job was over. From what I understand from the police report, the officer arrested the man for making a scene on his front porch. I don't see how that is against the law. It was the middle of the day and no one was being endangered by the man yelling whatever it was he was yelling.

Bah, I have had cops at my door 3 times this year and every single time I have been threatened for arrest or arrested for disagreeing with them. I wish they would find something better to do with their lives.

[jmdrake]

And if the resident escapes during the neighbors' inquiry or reachable neighbors don't know the occupant?

You accept the fact that in a free society nothing is perfect and move on. It's a moot point anyway because Gates had already provided documentation before the arrest. But I don't want to live in a society where I'm required to have documentation inside my own home. That's worse than a fascist state. Really the neighbor who called the police in the first place should have been better informed about who lived in the house. It the situation wasn't so pathetic it might make a good movie. Wait a minute...this already WAS a movie.

http://www.dreamagic.com/vivianrose/amosAndrew.gif

[kahless]

You accept the fact that in a free society nothing is perfect and move on. It's a moot point anyway because Gates had already provided documentation before the arrest. But I don't want to live in a society where I'm required to have documentation inside my own home. That's worse than a fascist state.

Just another way racism is being used as a propaganda tool in the media to justify the state having broad powers over our freedoms.

[powerofreason]

Well of course the police acted improperly. They kidnapped a man trying to enter his own home. There's just no excuse for committing crime, no matter who you are.

[TinCanToNA]

You accept the fact that in a free society nothing is perfect and move on. It's a moot point anyway because Gates had already provided documentation before the arrest. But I don't want to live in a society where I'm required to have documentation inside my own home. That's worse than a fascist state. Really the neighbor who called the police in the first place should have been better informed about who lived in the house. It the situation wasn't so pathetic it might make a good movie. Wait a minute...this already WAS a movie.

http://www.dreamagic.com/vivianrose/amosAndrew.gifUnless I'm mistaken, it was actually someone driving by who phoned in the call.

Regardless, you're right. Having to prove you live where you live, you are who you are, and etc. just because some random person calls the police on you is an easy road to fascism.

[BudhaStalin]

The initial confrontation had nothing to do with race im sure... it just became an issue when Gates said so. It is sad though that someone can be arrested in their own house even after already presenting documentation.

[max]

perhaps some of you cop hating anarchists should put yourself in the cop's shoes before knee-jerking and condemning them...

the cop responded to a break in tip. He has a wife and kids at home...and doesnt know if the suspect is armed. He proceeds as he was trained to do.

He asks this black communist for ID and is then subjected to unremitting and public verbal abuse and threats from this Harvard "professor."...abuse that took place in front of the house...not inside.

what's wrong with you people? Your blind hatred of the state caused you to side with a black communist America hater against a decent cop.

Talk about giving Libertarianism a bad name!

[disorderlyvision]

Spot on Sheriff

[sparebulb]

perhaps some of you cop hating anarchists should put yourself in the cop's shoes before knee-jerking and condemning them...

the cop responded to a break in tip. He has a wife and kids at home...and doesnt know if the suspect is armed. He proceeds as he was trained to do.

He asks this black communist for ID and is then subjected to unremitting and public verbal abuse and threats from this Harvard "professor."...abuse that took place in front of the house...not inside.

what's wrong with you people? Your blind hatred of the state caused you to side with a black communist America hater against a decent cop.

Talk about giving Libertarianism a bad name!

Do you know exactly what "verbal abuse" and "threats" the a/hole made against the cop? All that I have heard is that he insulted the cops mother. What crime has occurred there?

[kahless]

perhaps some of you cop hating anarchists should put yourself in the cop's shoes before knee-jerking and condemning them...

the cop responded to a break in tip. He has a wife and kids at home...and doesnt know if the suspect is armed. He proceeds as he was trained to do.

He asks this black communist for ID and is then subjected to unremitting and public verbal abuse and threats from this Harvard "professor."...abuse that took place in front of the house...not inside.

what's wrong with you people? Your blind hatred of the state caused you to side with a black communist America hater against a decent cop.

Talk about giving Libertarianism a bad name!

You cannot go around arresting people on the basis that you believe they are an asshole. After he saw the ID he should have left the nitwit screaming and walked away. What was the purpose of arresting him?

Now we have all these people like you that are coming to the defend a cop that feels he can violate someones civil rights based upon the civilians politics and douchebagery. This is a terrible precedent that is being set and is sending the wrong message to law enforcement by condoning the cops action.

[max]

You cannot go around arresting people on the basis that they are an asshole. After he saw the ID he should have left the nitwit and walked away. What was the purpose of arresting him?

Now we have all these people like you that are coming to the defend a cop that feels he can violate someones civil rights based upon the civilians politics and douchebagery. This is a terrible precedent that is being set and is sending the wrong message to law enforcement by condoning the cops action.

u didnt read the report......thats not exactly how it wen down...

that black communist continued his crap on the sidewalk...in front of neighbors..

there is no "civil right" to disturb the neighborhood peace, to loudly berate a cop for just doing his job, to insult the cop's mother....and issue threats against him..."you dont who you're messing with"

[sparebulb]

u didnt read the report......thats not exactly how it wen down...

that black communist continued his crap on the sidewalk...in front of neighbors..

there is no "civil right" to disturb the neighborhood peace, to loudly berate a cop for just doing his job, to insult the cop's mother....and issue threats against him..."you dont who you're messing with"

Do you know for a fact that this cop doesn't have relations with his mother? What you are describing is more of a slander complaint in civil court.

And again, please list what threats were made. I might be onboard with you if you can present the goods.

[Krugerrand]

Part of the problem here seems to be the desire to take sides. I want to say the police officer is wrong for the arrest. I also want to say that the home owner was wrong to not be appreciateve that somebody quickly followed through with the report of a break-in at his house. Simply show the policeman the identification and wish him a nice evening.

If a policeman were driving by as I was breaking into my own house, I would appreciate him verifying that I am the owner. Or, more directly to this case, if a neighbor called that somebody was breaking into my house, i would appreciate that an officer confirming that the person answering the door is the owner.

[max]

Do you know for a fact that this cop doesn't have relations with his mother? What you are describing is more of a slander complaint in civil court.

And again, please list what threats were made. I might be onboard with you if you can present the goods.

1. The black communist said to the cop "You dont know who you are messing with."

...an implied threat

2. The cop told the screaming black communist that he would prefer to speak outside, to which the communist agitator replied: "I'll speak to your momma outside."

3. The black communist continued his loud rant on the sidewalk...drawing the attention of the neighbors.

4. The black communist was then arrested for disturbing the peace.

5. The black communist goes whining to CNN, and the black communist president (a friend of his) joins the attack against the cops.

....too see so many "libertarians" siding with the black communist is dismaying. There is no "constitutional right" to disturb your neighbors.

[Krugerrand]

1. The black communist said to the cop "You dont know who you are messing with."

...an implied threat

2. The cop told the screaming black communist that he would prefer to speak outside, to which the communist agitator replied: "I'll speak to your momma outside."

3. The black communist continued his loud rant on the sidewalk...drawing the attention of the neighbors.

4. The black communist was then arrested for disturbing the peace.

5. The black communist goes whining to CNN, and the black communist president (a friend of his) joins the attack against the cops.

....too see so many "libertarians" siding with the black communist is dismaying. There is no "constitutional right" to disturb your neighbors.

Do you get arrested for disturbing your neighbors or should that be a citation?

[erowe1]

1. The black communist said to the cop "You dont know who you are messing with."


Why do you keep referring to him as a black communist? Is that relevant somehow? Is it meant as a way of denigrating him? If so, then why not just say "communist" rather than "black communist"?

[max]

Do you get arrested for disturbing your neighbors or should that be a citation?

If I started yelling at the cop , insulting his mom, threatening him, after he came to tell me to turn my stereo down...i'm sure i would be arrested too...

[apropos]

I'm quite sure that Officer Pig wasn't responding alone. Just like the Oklahoma trooper pig assault on the paramedic.

The number of police (or "pigs" as you might put it) does not necessarily solve the question at hand. If the occupant refuses to identify himself or cooperate (and officers go ask the neighbors to identify the resident), I am curious to hear how the OP proposes to ensure that the uncooperative, unidentified resident should remain without temporary detainment of some sort to ensure the property of the owner is not at risk.


You accept the fact that in a free society nothing is perfect and move on....Really the neighbor who called the police in the first place should have been better informed about who lived in the house.

No society is perfect, free or otherwise. But considering that property, which is the basis of a free society, is at risk due to a possible absence of the owner, I wonder how free a society can truly be if we can't depend on our property being there when we return from a trip. If those protecting property in our stead could not or would not practice enough due diligence to ensure the property is not lost or stolen, then again, how free are the members of this free society?

The neighbor here has fault as well...I see. But it seems like a tall expectation to level on a free society...that one *must* know their neighbors well enough to testify to a police officer about them. It follows that if one does not know their neighbor well enough to identify them and they witness a forced entry, they should let it alone. Obviously, some will return to find themselves robbed blind under this approach.

[erowe1]

If I started yelling at the cop , insulting his mom, threatening him, after he came to tell me to turn my stereo down...i'm sure i would be arrested too...

Do I get to have you arrested if you do that to me too? Or is it just government agents who have that privileged position?

[max]

Why do you keep referring to him as a black communist? Is that relevant somehow? Is it meant as a way of denigrating him? If so, then why not just say "communist" rather than "black communist"?

Because he IS a black communist.....holds the WE DuBuois chair at Harvard (DuBois was a known communist)...

I add the objective black because he has made this a racial issue...which is what black communists ALWAYS do..

[newbitech]

u didnt read the report......thats not exactly how it wen down...

that black communist continued his crap on the sidewalk...in front of neighbors..

there is no "civil right" to disturb the neighborhood peace, to loudly berate a cop for just doing his job, to insult the cop's mother....and issue threats against him..."you dont who you're messing with"

what sidewalk?

http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ht_gates_in_cuffs_090721_mn.jpg

[erowe1]

If the occupant refuses to identify himself or cooperate (and officers go ask the neighbors to identify the resident), I am curious to hear how the OP proposes to ensure that the uncooperative, unidentified resident should remain without temporary detainment of some sort to ensure the property of the owner is not at risk.

I can't speak for Sheriff Mack, who I'm sure can give a better answer than I can. But the professor was under no legal obligation to leave his house or provide them with government papers without their having a warrant. One way they could have dealt with such a situation if they really believed they had probable cause would have been to sit there and wait on the public street until they could go into his house with a warrant (which I think we all know they wouldn't have gotten).

[newbitech]

Do you get arrested for disturbing your neighbors or should that be a citation?

was there a complaint by one of the neighbors? I didn't see the disturbing your neighbors complaint.

[max]

Do I get to have you arrested if you do that to me too? Or is it just government agents who have that privileged position?

Extremist purist libertarianism.....all government is bad...all cops are pigs...

this is why we'll never win

[max]

what sidewalk?

http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ht_gates_in_cuffs_090721_mn.jpg

read the report....

[erowe1]

Because he IS a black communist.....holds the WE DuBuois chair at Harvard (DuBois was a known communist)...

I add the objective black because he has made this a racial issue...which is what black communists ALWAYS do..

Whether he is a black communist or not is irrelevant. And if you choose to continue to make an issue of race, then it indicates that you yourself think it's a racial issue. If the professor tried to make a racial issue out of it and you disagree with him, then you are free to discuss the facts of the case entirely without respect to race. It looks to me like you do think it's a racial issue, and that his being a black has something to do with your thinking that his arrest was OK.

I don't happen to agree that race is at all relevant here. I disagree with the professor on that point, so I will just address the facts without respect to racial ideas he or other people may have. The police were wrong. I have no reason to think they are racists, so as far as I'm concerned they are innocent of that charge. But they were wrong. The professor behaved wrongly as well in my opinion, but not in such a way as to justify being arrested. And he was well within his rights not to let them in his house or provide ID.

Also, what do you mean by your use of the word "objective"?

[kahless]

u didnt read the report......thats not exactly how it wen down...

that black communist continued his crap on the sidewalk...in front of neighbors..

there is no "civil right" to disturb the neighborhood peace, to loudly berate a cop for just doing his job, to insult the cop's mother....and issue threats against him..."you dont who you're messing with"

I read the report. Gates behaved stupidly but that is not against the law. Gates has a right to freedom of expression-speech no matter how we may disagree with it. With your believe system we would not be able to disagree with a cop or publicly protest without being subject to arrest.

[erowe1]

Extremist purist libertarianism.....all government is bad...all cops are pigs...

this is why we'll never win

Actually, no I'm not a libertarian. I'm a constitutionalist conservative Republican, like Ron Paul. You might want to look up what he thinks about government agents being able to ask people to show them their papers some time.

[newbitech]

read the report....

What does it say something different than what I see?

[erowe1]

What does it say something different than what I see?

Who you gonna believe? The government? Or your lyin' eyes?

[newbitech]

Who you gonna believe? The government? Or your
lyin' eyes?
right?

so here is the report.

1.) If he was led to believe that Gates was lawfully in the residence, then at this point, what probable cause did the officer have to continue his police activity?

2.) His reason for leaving should have been that he shouldn't be there in the first place.

3.) I am pretty sure that what drew the attention was the flashing lights and overwhelming police force on the scene.

4.) So the fact is that Gates was arrested on the property, and not on the sidewalk. The fact is that Gates never left the property on his own free will.

Where is the crime here, anyone?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2650/3752390879_dd59e14aeb_o.jpg

[kahless]

right?

so here is the report.

1.) If he was led to believe that Gates was lawfully in the residence, then at this point, what probable cause did the officer have to continue his police activity?

2.) His reason for leaving should have been that he shouldn't be there in the first place.

3.) I am pretty sure that what drew the attention was the flashing lights and overwhelming police force on the scene.

4.) So the fact is that Gates was arrested on the property, and not on the sidewalk. The fact is that Gates never left the property on his own free will.

Where is the crime here, anyone?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2650/3752390879_dd59e14aeb_o.jpg

What this says is bitching and moaning in your home can now lead to arrest.

[Sheriff Mack]

No one is compelled by law to talk with the police. He did not have to identify himself or answer any of their questions. Obtaining the I D of the homeowner is the officer's problem,
not the citizen's. I would have advised Gates to help and to keep a civil tongue in his head,
but he did not have to. You commit no crime by not cooperating.
R Mack

[TonySutton]

First of all, Professor Gates was under no obligation to assist or cooperate with the police investigation. He did not have to give them the time of day. If the officer walked inside Gates' home without permission, as Gates said he did, then that would have been the only crime committed that day.

Although I am certainly not a legal scholar. I think when the officer talked to the citizen on the street and was told she saw 2 people trying to force open the front door of the house, there was probable cause for the officer to believe a crime was being committed. This would allow him to legally enter the house, detain and question any person fitting the description given by the citizen on the street.

[pcosmar]

Although I am certainly not a legal scholar. I think when the officer talked to the citizen on the street and was told she saw 2 people trying to force open the front door of the house, there was probable cause for the officer to believe a crime was being committed. This would allow him to legally enter the house, detain and question any person fitting the description given by the citizen on the street.

Let me rephrase this, and see if it answers.

Would an Officer be able to trespass on Private property based on an unfounded allegation.

[Sheriff Mack]

It does not matter who Gates was! It does not matter if he's black or a communist! The issue
at hand is; did this citizen break the law and deserve to be hauled off to jail? Not did he offend
a cop or act like a jackass. (Some of you should be really grateful to know we can't go to jail for that?) Well, Gates did and his liberty was taken away as "constitutional guards" took him from his own home. If that is ok with some of you then don't cry when it happens to you or your family.
But this is supposed to be a country where that sort of thing does not happen! But rational thinking people are actually saying this arrest was fine or appropriate or even right. You have got to be kidding!
R Mack

[TonySutton]

Let me rephrase this, and see if it answers.

Would an Officer be able to trespass on Private property based on an unfounded allegation.

it doesn't come close

[Cowlesy]

Sheriff Mack -- Nice to see you stop in! I'm glad you did as I just ordered two of your books for two sheriffs I know.

I think the officer should have swallowed his pride, as this appears he didn't want to look like a chump in front of the regular police, harvard police and the neighbors. As much as I would have liked to have socked that professor in the jaw, he still has the 1st Amendment to chew the cop's ass if he so desires (as far as I know).

Thanks for stopping in and posting.

[pcosmar]

it doesn't come close

OK.

. I think when the officer talked to the citizen on the street and was told she saw 2 people trying to force open the front door of the house,
Unfounded allegation.
Was there evidence of the door being forced?
What was this persons interest? Are they credible?


there was probable cause for the officer to believe a crime was being committed.
No. Not based on an unsolicited/anonymous tip. And not without further and proper investigation


This would allow him to legally enter the house,
Hell no.
4th Amendment

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Damn.:(

[jmdrake]

perhaps some of you cop hating anarchists should put yourself in the cop's shoes before knee-jerking and condemning them...

the cop responded to a break in tip. He has a wife and kids at home...and doesnt know if the suspect is armed. He proceeds as he was trained to do.

He asks this black communist for ID and is then subjected to unremitting and public verbal abuse and threats from this Harvard "professor."...abuse that took place in front of the house...not inside.

what's wrong with you people? Your blind hatred of the state caused you to side with a black communist America hater against a decent cop.

Talk about giving Libertarianism a bad name!

1) Gates is not a communist. Jerk? Maybe. Communist? No.
2) Even if he was a communist that does not give the police the right to violate the constitution.
3) I was just as angry at the 72 y/o white grandma that got tazed after refusing to sign a ticket. Do you think the police acted properly in that case?

Really a freedom movement that defends the rights of Randy Weaver and then can't see that Gates got screwed over too isn't worth spit. I'm glad that people can stand up for freedom no matter what the color or politics or politeness of the person getting messed over by the state.

[jmdrake]

Because he IS a black communist.....holds the WE DuBuois chair at Harvard (DuBois was a known communist)...

I add the objective black because he has made this a racial issue...which is what black communists ALWAYS do..

:rolleyes: DuBois was also the founder of the NAACP. There have been many members of that organization who were NOT communist. If DuBois had been Catholic would that have made Gates Catholic? Retarded argument.

Regardless there is no political affiliation escape clause to the constitution. There is a poem you should keep in mind.

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then... they came for me... And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

Think about it.

[RoyalShock]

Here's where I'm a bit confused . . .

- A call of suspicious activity (two people appearing to break/bust into a house without a key qualifies, IMO) is made.

- Officer arrives based on information in that call.

Now, at this point, isn't the only reasonable course of action (since his purpose there is to protect property) to establish that the person in the house is a resident? How is that done without identification that includes an address?

- Officer asks for ID and is eventually shown a Harvard ID. If it doesn't include Gates' address then all he has is a name. Are we to conclude that Harvard employees are not capable of committing a crime?

What I'm reading here is that people think the cop should have left without resolving residence of the occupant.

Suppose a Harvard employee was indeed breaking into someone else's home. If he's quick-witted, he just might be able to say and do thing to "lead an officer to believe" he is a lawful occupant.

To me, the crux of whether the cop did the right thing by NOT leaving is whether the Harvard ID established his residence. Otherwise, the cop could be walking away from a robbery in progress.

I'm not involved in law enforcement, so this is just based on my own degree of common sense.

[powerofreason]

I do hate cops (to whoever called me a cop hating anarchist) because I have been personally victimized by them. And no, its not collectivist thinking to hate a criminal organization because one of its members victimized you. They all wrongly claim authority over us peaceful people.

[KenInMontiMN]

No need to take sides, clearly that property was overrun with idiots that day, neither Gates nor the police excepted. No arrest was necessary, or supportable, but neither was Gates' behavior. If being an idiot was a crime, everybody should have been dragged off in shackles. But its not a crime, but rather, all too often, the normal human condition.

[erowe1]

Now, at this point, isn't the only reasonable course of action (since his purpose there is to protect property) to establish that the person in the house is a resident? How is that done without identification that includes an address?


As Sheriff Mack said, that's not the homeowner's problem, it's the police's. The professor was not committing a crime. He was under no obligation to provide his id or any other proof that he was in his own house. If the police didn't want to leave the scene because of the possibility that there was a crime in progress, then they could have sat there on the street and waited to see anything criminal happened. While they waited they could have done whatever it was they thought they could do to find out if the man they just saw was the real owner of the house. Since the neighbor who called them there was watching they could have asked her if she knew. Or they could have waited while other officers researched who owned the property. Meanwhile, if it were the case that the man they saw were breaking in, he wouldn't be able to leave while they were there, and they'd eventually find out one way or another and be able to come in after him with a warrant.

[jmdrake]

Here's where I'm a bit confused . . .

- A call of suspicious activity (two people appearing to break/bust into a house without a key qualifies, IMO) is made.

- Officer arrives based on information in that call.

Now, at this point, isn't the only reasonable course of action (since his purpose there is to protect property) to establish that the person in the house is a resident? How is that done without identification that includes an address?

- Officer asks for ID and is eventually shown a Harvard ID. If it doesn't include Gates' address then all he has is a name. Are we to conclude that Harvard employees are not capable of committing a crime?

What I'm reading here is that people think the cop should have left without resolving residence of the occupant.

Suppose a Harvard employee was indeed breaking into someone else's home. If he's quick-witted, he just might be able to say and do thing to "lead an officer to believe" he is a lawful occupant.

To me, the crux of whether the cop did the right thing by NOT leaving is whether the Harvard ID established his residence. Otherwise, the cop could be walking away from a robbery in progress.

I'm not involved in law enforcement, so this is just based on my own degree of common sense.

One more time. The cop was already satisfied with the ID he received when he was about to leave and came back and arrested Gates for what Gates SAID! Sorry for shouting but its getting exasperating repeating the same basic fact over and over again. The ID had nothing to do with the arrest. It provides ZERO excuse.

Now as to the whether or not a citizen should have to provide ID in his own home comes down to this. Are you ready to trade liberty for security? If you are then you might as well have voted for John McCain and been done with it. (Ok. John McCain sucked on the economy too so maybe I'm being a bit harsh). All of the civil liberty abuses over the past 8 years are based on the false choice that we should trade our inalienable rights for this fleeting thing called "security". The simple fact is that yes, if the constitution is followed there might be some crimes that people might get away with. That's the price we pay to live in a free society. 999 out of 1000 a Harvard professor isn't going to be burglarizing someone's house. Possible? Yes. Probable? Of course not. If he wants to steal money he can skim off his grants or sell fake degrees or do something other that break into someone's home. 99 out of 100 times a burglar isn't going to come answer the door when the police show up. He's going to hide. The actions Gates took after the police showed up erased any reasonable "probable cause" that might exist from someone trying to open a jammed front door.

[pcosmar]

Here's where I'm a bit confused . . .

- A call of suspicious activity (two people appearing to break/bust into a house without a key qualifies, IMO) is made.

- Officer arrives based on information in that call.

Now, at this point, isn't the only reasonable course of action (since his purpose there is to protect property) to establish that the person in the house is a resident? How is that done without identification that includes an address?

- Officer asks for ID and is eventually shown a Harvard ID. If it doesn't include Gates' address then all he has is a name. Are we to conclude that Harvard employees are not capable of committing a crime?

What I'm reading here is that people think the cop should have left without resolving residence of the occupant.

Suppose a Harvard employee was indeed breaking into someone else's home. If he's quick-witted, he just might be able to say and do thing to "lead an officer to believe" he is a lawful occupant.

To me, the crux of whether the cop did the right thing by NOT leaving is whether the Harvard ID established his residence. Otherwise, the cop could be walking away from a robbery in progress.

I'm not involved in law enforcement, so this is just based on my own degree of common sense.
It should not be confusing. Take a step at a time.


- A call of suspicious activity (two people appearing to break/bust into a house without a key qualifies, IMO) is made.
Ok, but was it a prank call or malicious intent.
On what criteria does a anonymous call trump Private Property.

- Officer arrives based on information in that call.
Correction
- Officer arrives based on FALSE information in that call.
Officer does no investigation, No sign of a break in, No knowledge of who is the KNOWN homeowner.

(since his purpose there is to protect property
Wrong
His purpose is to investigate an alleged crime. He is already failing to do so.
He has no idea who lives there.

What I'm reading here is that people think the cop should have left without resolving residence of the occupant.
No, if there was no sign of a break-in.( And there was not) His job was done.
If he had attempted an investigation, He could have had the name of Mr Gates from public records, and would have known that Gates was in fact the home owner.

Stupid cop.

[Dark_Horse_Rider]

It does not matter who Gates was! It does not matter if he's black or a communist! The issue
at hand is; did this citizen break the law and deserve to be hauled off to jail? Not did he offend
a cop or act like a jackass. (Some of you should be really grateful to know we can't go to jail for that?) Well, Gates did and his liberty was taken away as "constitutional guards" took him from his own home. If that is ok with some of you then don't cry when it happens to you or your family.
But this is supposed to be a country where that sort of thing does not happen! But rational thinking people are actually saying this arrest was fine or appropriate or even right. You have got to be kidding!
R Mack

Nicely stated.

The race card is not really the point here, it is a liberty issue and about police acting improperly and possibly criminally.

People of all ages and colors get this kind of treatment from officers that overstep their bounds whenever they want to.

[Stary Hickory]

I was wondering about this also. If Gates claimed to be the owner of the house, then the police should have asked for Identification and checked to make sure the house was his. It should have been that simple.

However if Gates did not provide this information or did not cooperate, then I see the police as being justified. I think Gates did escalate the situation, however the cops do need to be level headed and in short be a better person and not stoop to that level.

The fact is, people are human, and a cop is not some robot. I mean they are human beings and can be pushed to do irrational things, if they are provoked. So I guess I am saying, why the hell try and make the cops confused, mad, or make it tougher for them to do their job? They were there to protect the property.

It really depends on just how uncooperative Gates was being, if he refused to identify himself properly than the cops were justified. If he did and simply made it a big confrontation, then the cops are at fault, but Gates is still a stupid asshole.

Some common sense might tell you that you are dealing with fallible human beings with loaded guns, who are in fact trying to do you a service. Just ridiculous, the whole thing.

[pcosmar]

I was wondering about this also. If Gates claimed to be the owner of the house, then the police should have asked for Identification and checked to make sure the house was his. It should have been that simple..
Wrong,
It is then up to the Cop to prove (with some kind of evidence0 that he was not the owner of the house.
If the Cop had no evidence that he was there illegally. And no evidence that the home had been broken into, he has no further business there.


However if Gates did not provide this information or did not cooperate, then I see the police as being justified.
Wrong, A man in his own home has nothing to prove to anyone.





Some common sense might tell you that you are dealing with fallible human beings with loaded guns, who are in fact trying to do you a service. Just ridiculous, the whole thing.
That is just so stupid I don't even know how to respond.
:confused:

[Philmanoman]

So youre telling me...when I see a cop at my home or anywhere else...I can just walk up to them and say..."You dont know who youre messin with" or "Ill talk to your Momma outside" and those arent perceived as threats...cool Im gonna start doin that and when the cops start to mess with me Ill just tell them "Hey its all good,Sherriff Mack and some people on RPforums said it was just fine".

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

That cop was a douchebag and in my not so humble opinion, Professor Gates would have been perfectly justified in treating him as a home invader. It would have been doubly nice if Gates had called the local Sherrif and asked for a Deputy to come out and arrest the offending trespassers. All of you defending that thug in blue should be ashamed of yourselves as he violated Gates' civil liberties. I don't give a hoot in hell if the cop was told he humped his dead grandmother as it doesn't give him the authority to arrest the person stating that fact.

[Sheriff Mack]

If you have a cop who thinks it is a threat because you want to talk to his mother outside
and she is not even there, then both of you should check into the Hotel for Paranoids for
a month long rest. If you did that to a cop he would do what most cops would do; laugh
at you. That is exactly what these cops should have done. Gates was not charged with making
threats, so your point is moot. I was a cop/sheriff for 20years. Gates was arrested out of
pride and frustration. If you want the police to have that kind of power in America then you
are the one with the problem, not Gates.
Sheriff Mack

[disorderlyvision]

if you have a cop who thinks it is a threat because you want to talk to his mother outside
and she is not even there, then both of you should check into the hotel for paranoids for
a month long rest. If you did that to a cop he would do what most cops would do; laugh
at you. That is exactly what these cops should have done. Gates was not charged with making
threats, so your point is moot. I was a cop/sheriff for 20years. Gates was arrested out of
pride and frustration. If you want the police to have that kind of power in america then you
are the one with the problem, not gates.
Sheriff mack


+1776

[__27__]

Mr. Mack,

You give the anarchist in my heart hope for the law enforcement of this country. Which is saying a lot because I abandoned the profession after 5 years as a deputy because I couldn't stomach the grotesque people around me.

[Philmanoman]

If you have a cop who thinks it is a threat because you want to talk to his mother outside
and she is not even there, then both of you should check into the Hotel for Paranoids for
a month long rest. If you did that to a cop he would do what most cops would do; laugh
at you. That is exactly what these cops should have done. Gates was not charged with making
threats, so your point is moot. I was a cop/sheriff for 20years. Gates was arrested out of
pride and frustration. If you want the police to have that kind of power in America then you
are the one with the problem, not Gates.
Sheriff Mack

Why do I have to be the one with the problem...I can supply the same and say youre the one with the problem.I mean seriously...
Where did I say I want the police to have that power...funny...noone on these forums was there but everyone knows how everyone there was supposed to do their jobs.By what youre saying...anything said to a cop should be taken as a joke.Most people would get arrested for the same thing and charges dropped.

[pcosmar]

Why do I have to be the one with the problem...I.

Huh,,,
Was it directed at you? I did not see the QUOTE.

The Cop was Friggin" Wrong on several fronts, at each and every point of the exchange.
Now it will cost the taxpayers, due to the quite justifiable Lawsuit.
A smart city manager and Police Chief would terminate his employment as fast as possible.

[erowe1]

By what youre saying...anything said to a cop should be taken as a joke.Most people would get arrested for the same thing and charges dropped.

It doesn't matter if it's a joke. It's not a reason for arrest. You may be right that most people would get arrested for it, I don't know. But if that's true, it would still be just as wrong every time it happened. If you insult me the same way Gates allegedly insulted that government agent, I wouldn't be able to have you arrested for it. But it seems like you're suggesting that the government agent should have some special privilege to respond to insults in a way the rest of us can't.

[Philmanoman]

Maybe I reacted in haste...Im just trying to figure out what is the breaking point...by the way some people make it sound...because of freedom of speech we can say whatever we like to a police officer.

Would a spit in the face involve the same reaction...laugh and walk away...is a spit in the face akin to calling out someones mother...i think I should be allowed to spit in a cops face...its no more disorderly than yelling obscenities is it?
__________________

[pcosmar]

Perhaps if more people were Armed and willing to use their legal rights this thing would happen a lot less.


�An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to
be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in
defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and
battery.� (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).


�Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case,
the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer
and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense.� (State v.
Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).


Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting
officer's life if necessary.� Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306. This
premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the
case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: �Where the
officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally
accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with
very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right
to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What
may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter
in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been
committed.

The servants have forgotten their place.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

because of freedom of speech we can say whatever we like to a police officer

Yes, we can. Doubly do on our own property. If a cop doesn't like it I've told him to go fuck himself, tough shit. Its my property and my control of said property supercedes his 'authority'. Otherwise they could write speeding tickets for someone driving in their own driveway.


Would a spit in the face involve the same reaction...laugh and walk away...is a spit in the face akin to calling out someones mother...i think I should be allowed to spit in a cops face...its no more disorderly than yelling obscenities is it?

Red Herring bullshit. Spitting on someone is not Freedom of Speech.

[Philmanoman]

I know what youre saying guys...Im not really disagreeing with anyone...just comes down to one point for me.

Blowback doesnt just apply to foreign policy.Gates was a victim...a victim of blowback.I just dont have any sympathy for him nor would I bother standing up for him.Should the cop of acted the way he did...no I believe he could of handled it better...could Gates of handled it better...probably so...i guess all we can do is hope that some good comes out of this and keep educating people.

Im not very good at conveying my thoughts or typing things out...im not trying to use a red herring arguement...I didnt state that spitting in someones face was freedom of speech...just asking if the cop should be the bigger man if that were to happen and walk away.

Also...if we were to talk to cops however we like...do we actually think thats gonna change their attitudes...telling them to go **** their mothers or anything really.Like I said not disagreeing with anyone...I just look at things from like a million perspectives...lol I know probably not a good thing to do.