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Brian4Liberty
07-22-2009, 12:21 PM
The talk continues about Health Care, and once again, they want to place a lot of the cost on employers. Forcing employers to pay for their employees health care, with a wide variety of overbearing and costly regulation involved. That is certainly an infringement upon the liberty of employers. So why not replace it with a much smaller infringement of their liberty: abolish employer paid or subsidized health care completely. None. Zero. Not private employers, not government, not any branches of government. Not for active employees, not for retired employees.

The market will function a little better with people actually having to shop around, and pay the true cost. It would lift a huge burden from small business.

Of course this is just a wild Utopian idea, and could never happen...

Kraig
07-22-2009, 01:08 PM
If you made it illegal for employers to provide healthcare, they would increase their employee salaries based on how much they were paying for health insurance (probably not completely though, they would keep some as employees really don't know how much they are spending). The problem is that employers get group discounts when they apply, so when the money is given to the individual they would not get the group discount and would not be able to afford the same level of healthcare.

The only solution is to remove all government regulations and let the healthcare industry regulate itself, this would lower costs quickly and drastically. You aren't going to fix a problem that was created by too much red tape by adding more red tape.

You say why not replace it with a smaller infringement on liberty, I say why not remove the current infringements on liberty right now?

fisharmor
07-22-2009, 01:19 PM
The group rate goes both ways.
When I quit smoking, my life insurance premium went down.
My health insurance premium did NOT go down.
I am still subsidizing the smoking habits of my coworkers.

Not as much anymore, since we got an HSA last month.

Bear in mind also that group insurance also creates situations where I am forced to default on debt. I am in the process of it right now. My wife's doctor sent out for labwork to a lab that the insurance company didn't deal with, and now everyone wants us to pay it.
I told them all to go screw: I write debt collection software, so I know something about how to get out of debt without paying any money.

I have absolutely no moral problem leveraging the system like this either, since the system's $800+/month rates for family health insurance have factored in the price of snafus like this. The system does not expect me or others like me to pay this. It is part of the reason why premium costs are so high.

The real issue at hand is taxes. The only reason employers opt to give out so much coverage in the first place is because it is tax-free compensation.

This issue can't be solved without a massive tax overhaul. If you want to repeal the HMO act and go back to health insurance being insurance, great. But it's quickly going to be replaced by another market interference as everyone realizes Leviathan is getting a bigger cut than before. Politicians will figure out some way to make our burden a little lighter on the surface, and bollocks it all up again in the process.

The only real solution is to cut everyone's base taxes at the same time as you cut tax-free healthcare premiums.

Brian4Liberty
07-22-2009, 01:22 PM
If you made it illegal for employers to provide healthcare, they would increase their employee salaries based on how much they were paying for health insurance (probably not completely though, they would keep some as employees really don't know how much they are spending).

That would be good.


The problem is that employers get group discounts when they apply, so when the money is given to the individual they would not get the group discount and would not be able to afford the same level of healthcare.

Ironically, I found years ago that I could purchase Health insurance as an individual for far cheaper than employers had to pay for their (very similar level) group plans. "Group" plans and buying in bulk is not always a discount, especially if you don't shop around.

Unfortunately, the HMOs and such found out that this comparison was being made more and more, so they have cranked up the price on individual plans far faster than they have on group plans.


The only solution is to remove all government regulations and let the healthcare industry regulate itself, this would lower costs quickly and drastically. You aren't going to fix a problem that was created by too much red tape by adding more red tape.

Allowing true competition would be the perfect solution. I was calling for replacing a huge ball of red tape with a very small piece, but in reality, it would never work that way. 100,000 pages of legislation will always be replaced by 300,000 pages.


You say why not replace it with a smaller infringement on liberty, I say why not remove the current infringements on liberty right now?

Another good idea... We don't have a prayer. :(

Brian4Liberty
07-22-2009, 01:25 PM
The real issue at hand is taxes. The only reason employers opt to give out so much coverage in the first place is because it is tax-free compensation.


I forgot about that. We absolutely need to cut those tax breaks. Unfortunately, the only argument we hear is more tax-breaks (corporate welfare) vs. socialized medicine.

Kraig
07-22-2009, 01:26 PM
Another good idea... We don't have a prayer. :(

I think we have more than a prayer if we continuously speak out about what is wrong with the current system and teach people that government regulation is the reason why prices are so high. Many people think that the problem is just greedy industries and that private insurance and healthcare are the enemy, so they run to the government to fix things for them. If they knew that government was actually the culprit for the high prices, things would be different.

Krugerrand
07-22-2009, 01:33 PM
outlaw all health insurance.
prohibit pain and suffering awards on malpractice cases unless malicious intent can be proven.
allow tax free health savings accounts to which employers or individuals (or anybody) can contribute.
allow unrestricted transfer/donations between health savings accounts.


everything becomes pay as you go. People will shop for better prices, the prices will come down. People will not get unnecessary drugs/treatments, the prices will come down. The GOV/Insurance companies will not get a cut for transferring money ... the prices will come down.

You have to budget your own food. You have to budget your own shelter. You have to budget your own medical care.

EDIT

abolish the FDA

quality will improve

mediahasyou
07-22-2009, 01:34 PM
whatever people demand. ;)

Kraig
07-22-2009, 01:48 PM
outlaw all health insurance.
prohibit pain and suffering awards on malpractice cases unless malicious intent can be proven.
allow tax free health savings accounts to which employers or individuals (or anybody) can contribute.
allow unrestricted transfer/donations between health savings accounts.


everything becomes pay as you go. People will shop for better prices, the prices will come down. People will not get unnecessary drugs/treatments, the prices will come down. The GOV/Insurance companies will not get a cut for transferring money ... the prices will come down.

You have to budget your own food. You have to budget your own shelter. You have to budget your own medical care.

EDIT

abolish the FDA

quality will improve

It will take more than that, every year healthcare providers are slapped with new regulations that cost thousands if not millions of dollars to comply with. Ultimately the consumer is going to pay for those.

Brian4Liberty
07-22-2009, 08:43 PM
outlaw all health insurance.


Amen! (Well, if we are being Draconian)... ;)



allow tax free health savings accounts to which employers or individuals (or anybody) can contribute.
allow unrestricted transfer/donations between health savings accounts.


I consider all tax breaks to be corporate welfare (they always benefit some industry), so I'm not so much for introducing or extending tax loopholes. I know, I disagree with Ron Paul on this...

Krugerrand
07-23-2009, 09:12 AM
I consider all tax breaks to be corporate welfare (they always benefit some industry), so I'm not so much for introducing or extending tax loopholes. I know, I disagree with Ron Paul on this...

There's certainly truth to that. However I tend to favor eliminating what we can when we can. There are absurd limits to what you can gift somebody before Uncle Sam takes a cut. (I think $10,000 ... but that may have changed.) If we could bypass that and the inheritance tax through medical accounts, that'd be great.

idirtify
07-23-2009, 09:30 AM
The group rate goes both ways.
When I quit smoking, my life insurance premium went down.
My health insurance premium did NOT go down.
I am still subsidizing the smoking habits of my coworkers.

Not as much anymore, since we got an HSA last month.

Bear in mind also that group insurance also creates situations where I am forced to default on debt. I am in the process of it right now. My wife's doctor sent out for labwork to a lab that the insurance company didn't deal with, and now everyone wants us to pay it.
I told them all to go screw: I write debt collection software, so I know something about how to get out of debt without paying any money.

I have absolutely no moral problem leveraging the system like this either, since the system's $800+/month rates for family health insurance have factored in the price of snafus like this. The system does not expect me or others like me to pay this. It is part of the reason why premium costs are so high.

The real issue at hand is taxes. The only reason employers opt to give out so much coverage in the first place is because it is tax-free compensation.

This issue can't be solved without a massive tax overhaul. If you want to repeal the HMO act and go back to health insurance being insurance, great. But it's quickly going to be replaced by another market interference as everyone realizes Leviathan is getting a bigger cut than before. Politicians will figure out some way to make our burden a little lighter on the surface, and bollocks it all up again in the process.

The only real solution is to cut everyone's base taxes at the same time as you cut tax-free healthcare premiums.

Fisharmor,

Your post is a perfect example of evading the main health care issue. It is disingenuous to claim that the real issue/solution is all about a massive tax overhaul, unless you mean to eliminate taxes altogether and completely remove government regulation from health care. But I doubt that’s what you meant – since it’s NOT WHAT YOU SAID.

idirtify
07-23-2009, 09:32 AM
I think we have more than a prayer if we continuously speak out about what is wrong with the current system and teach people that government regulation is the reason why prices are so high. Many people think that the problem is just greedy industries and that private insurance and healthcare are the enemy, so they run to the government to fix things for them. If they knew that government was actually the culprit for the high prices, things would be different.

Kraig,

Excellent point, well-stated. You are the man!