9 out of 10 people need gov't <why lib'tar'ism won't ever sell>

[BoogerSnax]

I'm speculating on the number by using real life examples that I know of.

Most people are AFRAID of life.
From the need for insurance on everything to the idea of a "safety net", most all people can not fathom life without the state.

It's part of the reason I gave up on being an active Libertarian. I find it a waste of time anymore.
To me, time is better spent LIVING the talk instead of talking it.

I've desire to be a martyr, so I don't do the these things, but here are a couple of examples.

Red light cameras, and surveillence cameras in general will never go away. The only way to fight them is with a can of spray paint or a scoped rifle.

The IRS/Fed will never cease to exist, or even shrink. The only way to actively fight them would be for a mass revolt of non-tax-payment.

These two examples are the tip of the 'berg in the way I see things. Anything short of direct action is akin the dog that chases cars down the street every day.

Thoughts?

[torchbearer]

tell this to those who are afraid-

this government will end if it continues to spend as it is...
or it will end because we turned it around in time...
either way- it will end.

[BoogerSnax]

tell this to those who are afraid-

this government will end if it continues to spend as it is...
or it will end because we turned it around in time...
either way- it will end.

You're talking of a SHTF scenario. It will be too late when it's time to be loaded onto the Change-Train and transported to the Hope-Camps.
People can't even fathom that type of scenario, much less the idea of the state "not being there".

[torchbearer]

You're talking of a SHTF scenario. It will be too late when it's time to be loaded onto the Change-Train and transported to the Hope-Camps.
People can't even fathom that type of scenario, much less the idea of the state "not being there".

either way, its going to end. what ending do you want?

[heavenlyboy34]

As it always is in Statist societies, the majority lives (leaches) off of the productivity of the minority. No surprises here. :(

[Bryan]

How are you going to get a mass revolt to not pay taxes if 9 out of 10 people want the taxes?

IMO, the key is to educate people on freedom, and if we don't then our time of living freedom will soon dry up. If you are finding what you are doing is a waste of time then you should certainly adjust your operational parameters- but you should still enjoy the freedoms you do have.

I just posted a good explanation here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=200533&p=2219428

BTW- fighting cameras with violence will just increase taxes to pay for the damage and for the law enforcement to hunt you down. This again is why education is key.

[BoogerSnax]

We'll not turn it around. It's not going to happen.

[Sandman33]

Well...under the agenda the statists want we will only see one out of every 12 people survive...that gets us down to their magical number of 500 million globally.

Just like their guidestone states.

So whats' better? Killing big govt and fighting for yourself?...Or taking chances that you will be one of the 500mill that gets to survive....to be a slave?

Your choice.

[BoogerSnax]

How are you going to get a mass revolt to not pay taxes if 9 out of 10 people want the taxes?

IMO, the key is to educate people on freedom, and if we don't then our time of living freedom will soon dry up. If you are finding what you are doing is a waste of time then you should certainly adjust your operational parameters- but you should still enjoy the freedoms you do have.

I just posted a good explanation here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=200533&p=2219428

BTW- fighting cameras with violence will just increase taxes to pay for the damage and for the law enforcement to hunt you down. This again is why education is key.

The waste-of-time is not due to paramaters. It is due to the fact that the beast that is gov't is not going to give back any of the power it has taken. Why would it?

As soon as any people try to "live free" they will be on the news in a Ruby-Ridge, Montana Freemen kind of way. Or even worse, Ed and Elaine Brown style, where no one even hears of it.

[Bryan]

So whats' better? Killing big govt and fighting for yourself?...Or taking chances that you will be one of the 500mill that gets to survive....to be a slave?

Your choice.

Sure, easy choice. So what is the plan?

[Bryan]

The waste-of-time is not due to paramaters. It is due to the fact that the beast that is gov't is not going to give back any of the power it has taken. Why would it?

As soon as any people try to "live free" they will be on the news in a Ruby-Ridge, Montana Freemen kind of way. Or even worse, Ed and Elaine Brown style, where no one even hears of it.

I agree on both points. So what is the plan? (You can see my previously posted link for mine)

[heavenlyboy34]

Sure, easy choice. So what is the plan?

Secession is sounding good to me at the moment. :cool:

[BoogerSnax]

Well...under the agenda the statists want we will only see one out of every 12 people survive...that gets us down to their magical number of 500 million globally.

Just like their guidestone states.

So whats' better? Killing big govt and fighting for yourself?...Or taking chances that you will be one of the 500mill that gets to survive....to be a slave?

Your choice.

And how are you even going to explain this particular angle to your average person?
The idea of killing big gov't is unthinkable to them, so the idea of killing it off, combined with any sort of Agenda 21 or Guidestone related issue will certainly not make ant headway with them.

[BoogerSnax]

I agree on both points. So what is the plan? (You can see my previously posted link for mine)

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=200660

[Bryan]

Secession is sounding good to me at the moment. :cool:

My post refutes this as an option- as the OP here put it "It is due to the fact that the beast that is gov't is not going to give back any of the power it has taken. Why would it?"

How would secession be any different? It won't work until you have a critical mass of numbers.

[Bryan]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=200660

Those are good things, and I do like and support them, but at some point the 9 of 10 people will say you can no longer do them and they'll put in prison if you try.

[BoogerSnax]

Those are good things, and I do like and support them, but at some point the 9 of 10 people will say you can no longer do them and they'll put in prison if you try.

This is true.
That is why it might be better to quietly implement/live those principles, and encourage others to do the same. In place of trying to "change the system" through the traditional means. <seeing as the system is now fully owned and corrupted>

[Sandman33]

Sure, easy choice. So what is the plan?

Educating the masses like stated.

Look how far Ron Pauls bill to audit the fed has gone with just OUR support now....after failing for so many years to be heard.

After the entire nation is awake the federal govt STILL absolutely will not relinquish any of its powers.

But if everyone is awake no one will fight for them. Not our soldiers or police. And with everyone awake more politicians like Kokesh will get elected. And if they STILL won't change we just grab our pitchforks and do it old school.

There's a reason they are pressing so hard so fast now. Because they know that time is running out and there are less and less sheeple buying their bullshit every day.

[Sandman33]

And how are you even going to explain this particular angle to your average person?
The idea of killing big gov't is unthinkable to them, so the idea of killing it off, combined with any sort of Agenda 21 or Guidestone related issue will certainly not make ant headway with them.

I've woken up several people myself. A lot in fact. And it's quite easy to prove the agenda to them when they are working so much out in the open now.

They aren't even trying to hide it anymore. They are publicly speaking about it.

[BoogerSnax]

I've woken up several people myself. A lot in fact. And it's quite easy to prove the agenda to them when they are working so much out in the open now.

They aren't even trying to hide it anymore. They are publicly speaking about it.

Way to go. Keep at it.

I personally see that it's a futile effort.

[Andrew-Austin]

Boring ass thread.

Crack heads can be defendant on crack all they want.

This does not mean:
1. That it will always be possible for them to appease their addiction
2. That this addiction won't kick them in the ass one day teaching a lesson that is hard to ignore.
3. You shouldn't still discourage their addiction on crack
4. Etc but I'm too lazy to define what ETC. is.

Huzzah for emo arguments from effect. Do whatever you want. Nothing wrong with just being one less person contributing to state power, and maximizing your own freedom and well being.

[Bryan]

This is true.
That is why it might be better to quietly implement/live those principles, and encourage others to do the same. In place of trying to "change the system" through the traditional means. <seeing as the system is now fully owned and corrupted>
Basically, I am in agreement with this- and once enough people are educated then the system can be changed. Expecting to change it with some special plan, or some political maneuvering isn't going to work until you have the needed critical mass. Granted, some of the political maneuvering can be useful to get critical mass and may reduce the needed critical mass but it's still all a massive numbers game at this point- and we are way behind.

[heavenlyboy34]

My post refutes this as an option- as the OP here put it "It is due to the fact that the beast that is gov't is not going to give back any of the power it has taken. Why would it?"

How would secession be any different? It won't work until you have a critical mass of numbers.

Meh, only if you want to be political about it. Individuals can always do whatever is in their abilities to become self reliant, up to/including moving abroad (aka "individualist secession").

[Bryan]

Meh, only if you want to be political about it. Individuals can always do whatever is in their abilities to become self reliant, up to/including moving abroad (aka "individualist secession").

I agree, moving abroad can be an option- but where are you going to move to and have any security of freedom from the 9 of 10 the OP talks about? From all accounts I've seen, moving is no longer much of an option- it may buy you a handful of years but that is it- you will never be far from the reach of the 9 of 10 on this planet unless things change course (which you can't help make happen if you move abroad).

[heavenlyboy34]

I agree, moving abroad can be an option- but where are you going to move to and have any security of freedom from the 9 of 10 the OP talks about? From all accounts I've seen, moving is no longer much of an option- it may buy you a handful of years but that is it- you will never be far from the reach of the 9 of 10 on this planet unless things change course (which you can't help make happen if you move abroad).

I haven't looked into that much yet, as I don't have the capital. :( I'll get back to you on that.

[BoogerSnax]

Meh, only if you want to be political about it. Individuals can always do whatever is in their abilities to become self reliant, up to/including moving abroad (aka "individualist secession").

I understand the post before yours, but basically am in total agreement with what you are saying here.

The "what if they threw a war, and nobody came" scenario. After 42 years of basically being a non-social animal, and the past 8 or so years of dabbling in the Libertarian movement, I've returned to my original way of being.

The Libertarian movement, like any other social/political movement is more about personal validation than it is anything else. People feeling good about themselves and the grop they associate with.

I'd more think that big gov't would suffers more by a "thousand cuts" of non-compliance than it ever will by a "mass movement".

[jmdrake]

I understand the post before yours, but basically am in total agreement with what you are saying here.

The "what if they threw a war, and nobody came" scenario. After 42 years of basically being a non-social animal, and the past 8 or so years of dabbling in the Libertarian movement, I've returned to my original way of being.

The Libertarian movement, like any other social/political movement is more about personal validation than it is anything else. People feeling good about themselves and the grop they associate with.

I'd more think that big gov't would suffers more by a "thousand cuts" of non-compliance than it ever will by a "mass movement".

And yet you somehow feel the need for "personal validation" here? :rolleyes:

I myself am not libertarian. I'm constitutionalist. Small but important difference. Still it's funny to see people saying "this movement can't work" or "that movement can't work" while offering basically YAM (yet another movement). There's nothing wrong with non-compliance, but it will only have an effect if enough people don't comply. Well if you can agree to get enough people to do ANYTHING you'd accomplish your goal. The government can continue to function as is with 9 out of 10 people continuing to comply.

Now let's take the 9 out of 10 statistic as fact (although it's really just out of thin air). Say if the 1 out of 10 people left each managed to convince just 2 people per year that the government is out of control and we should reject and roll back government expansion whether it comes from the right wing or the left wing of the RepubliCrat party. Simple stuff. Getting rid of FEMA, DHS, the fed, the welfare state individual and corporate, farm subsidies etc. With just waking up 2 people per year each you have a majority in merely 3 years, assuming that each person you wake up commits to waking up 2 people. To me that's far more productive than trying to convince those of us who already want to roll back government to follow your particular plan for doing so.

Now here's another statistic that is verified. 9 out of 10 people were against the initial Bush bailout. If we had convinced those people to vote against any congressman or senator who voted for the bailout we'd have our country back. It wouldn't matter if they went on to vote for Obama or McCain, both of whom supported the bailout. If we could convince people to take that one easy step that they already know is right we'd already be where we need to be. It's going to be tougher now because bailout opposition is becoming a partisan issue thanks to collective amnesia about the bipartisan nature of the Bush bailout. But it can still be done.

[Feenix566]

We're living in a unique time in history. The Internet is changing the way information gets out to people. The state is no longer able to commit the wholesale brainwashing they have accomplished in the past by influencing a few major media outlets. More and more people are getting the information from the Internet instead of television and newspapers. Free market forces are now operating in this highly competitive information market, creating a survival of the fittest for ideas. You might call it ideological darwinism.

Libertarianism is on the path to victory, because it's the best idea. Statism is losing the war. Sure, they win a battle here and there. The statists definitely have us outnumbered for now. But libertarianism is all about looking at the long term and accepting sacrifices in the short term. The long term trend is that more and more people are getting turned on to the ideas of liberty. The tide is turning in our direction, albiet very slowly.

Either that or you're right.

[Kraig]

I'm speculating on the number by using real life examples that I know of.

Most people are AFRAID of life.
From the need for insurance on everything to the idea of a "safety net", most all people can not fathom life without the state.

It's part of the reason I gave up on being an active Libertarian. I find it a waste of time anymore.
To me, time is better spent LIVING the talk instead of talking it.

I've desire to be a martyr, so I don't do the these things, but here are a couple of examples.

Red light cameras, and surveillence cameras in general will never go away. The only way to fight them is with a can of spray paint or a scoped rifle.

The IRS/Fed will never cease to exist, or even shrink. The only way to actively fight them would be for a mass revolt of non-tax-payment.

These two examples are the tip of the 'berg in the way I see things. Anything short of direct action is akin the dog that chases cars down the street every day.

Thoughts?

Typical behavior among slaves.

[BoogerSnax]

We're living in a unique time in history. The Internet is changing the way information gets out to people. The state is no longer able to commit the wholesale brainwashing they have accomplished in the past by influencing a few major media outlets. More and more people are getting the information from the Internet instead of television and newspapers. Free market forces are now operating in this highly competitive information market, creating a survival of the fittest for ideas. You might call it ideological darwinism.

Libertarianism is on the path to victory, because it's the best idea. Statism is losing the war. Sure, they win a battle here and there. The statists definitely have us outnumbered for now. But libertarianism is all about looking at the long term and accepting sacrifices in the short term. The long term trend is that more and more people are getting turned on to the ideas of liberty. The tide is turning in our direction, albiet very slowly.

Either that or you're right.

It's not a thing I wish to be right about. It's just an observation of people in general.
Most all people want a safety net, or a guarantee if you will. A life with no guarantee of what tomorrow will bring is terrifying to them.

[paulitics]

It's not a thing I wish to be right about. It's just an observation of people in general.
Most all people want a safety net, or a guarantee if you will. A life with no guarantee of what tomorrow will bring is terrifying to them.

This comes with alot of brainwshing through schools and the media. At one time, people desired to be self sufficient and independent, and would recoil at socialized anything. Parents would instill these values in their children at a young age. The government's efforts were no competition to pre 1900 American values.

It took many generations of brainwashing and lots of ponzi scheme handouts and by the govt, not unlike a drug dealer who gets their targets addicted first before taking everything away. Now, that people see the very high price tag of false security the gvt promises, with a direct loss of freedom, their perspective is starting to change.

People primarely want to be free, and would rather not work hard to achieve it. This is a paradox, but ultimately a decision they will have to choose. The reasonable American's are jumping from Obama's ship, as they now realize that the Mesiah will take away more than he can ever give. Why do you think Obama needs to steamroll this healthcare bill now before Congress breaks for August?

If left alone, without the brainwashing and Machivelian politics, people would choose freedom 9 times out of 10. The problem is, they are never left alone to make an intelligent decison without propagnada all around them. I blame people for trusting others. ie the media, the government, the so called experts, instead of themselves. Most don't realize the authority figures do not have their best interest in mind. It is a very naive and gullible public that is at fault, not their innate desire to want socialism over freedom.