Chief White Cloud on Religion and the Great Spirit

[FrankRep]

Chief White Cloud on Religion and the Great Spirit


Your religious calling was written on plates of stone by
the flaming finger of an angry God.

Our religion was established by the traditions of our
ancestors, the dreams of our elders that are given to
them in the silent hours by the Great Spirit. And the
premonitions of the learned beings.

It is written in the hearts of our people, thus:

We do not require churches - which would only lead us
to argue over God. And the thought that white men
should rule over nature and change its ways to his
liking, was never understood by the red man.

Our belief is that the Great Spirit has created all things.
Not just mankind, but all animals, all plants, all rocks,
all on Earth and amongst the stars with true soul.

For us, all life is holy.

But. You do not understand our prayers when we address
the Sun, Moon, and Winds. You have judged us without
understanding, only because our prayers are different.

But we are able to live in harmony with all of nature. All
of nature is within us and we are all part of nature.

- Chief White Cloud

[sedele]

Chief White Cloud on Religion and the Great Spirit


Your religious calling was written on plates of stone by
the flaming finger of an angry God.

Our religion was established by the traditions of our
ancestors, the dreams of our elders that are given to
them in the silent hours by the Great Spirit. And the
premonitions of the learned beings.

It is written in the hearts of our people, thus:

We do not require churches - which would only lead us
to argue over God. And the thought that white men
should rule over nature and change its ways to his
liking, was never understood by the red man.

Our belief is that the Great Spirit has created all things.
Not just mankind, but all animals, all plants, all rocks,
all on Earth and amongst the stars with true soul.

For us, all life is holy.

But. You do not understand our prayers when we address
the Sun, Moon, and Winds. You have judged us without
understanding, only because our prayers are different.

But we are able to live in harmony with all of nature. All
of nature is within us and we are all part of nature.

- Chief White Cloud

They address the Sun, Moon and the Winds because their god is the same god all panthiestic religions worship: the Creation.

[PaulaGem]

They address the Sun, Moon and the Winds because their god is the same god all panthiestic religions worship: the Creation.

That is a chauvinist interpretation of what westerners label pantheism.

In fact, most "pagans" and "pantheists" I speak of believe in the One but they do not conceptualize Him/Her in the anthropomorphic terms that westerners use.

If God is an infinite, all Knowing One, the source of all creation, it seems to make more sense to appreciate creation as a whole as the expression of the One rather than a bunch of man made words in a book.

[sedele]

That is a chauvinist interpretation of what westerners label pantheism.

In fact, most "pagans" and "pantheists" I speak of believe in the One but they do not conceptualize Him/Her in the anthropomorphic terms that westerners use.

If God is an infinite, all Knowing One, the source of all creation, it seems to make more sense to appreciate creation as a whole as the expression of the One rather than a bunch of man made words in a book.

"Didn’t men write the Bible?"

Absolutely. When you write a letter, do you write the letter, or does the pen? Obviously you do; the pen is merely the instrument you use. God used men as instruments to write His "letter" to humanity. They ranged from kings to common fishermen, but the 66 books of the Bible were all given by inspiration of God. Proof that this Book is supernatural can been seen with a quick study of its prophecies.

[sedele]

Pantheism is the view that identifies God with the world. Or put another way—“God is everything and everything is God.” The term “Pantheism” comes from two Greek terms—pan which means “all” and theos which means “God.” Thus, pantheism literally means “all is God.” With pantheism there is a unity to all things, and any statement about any object is a statement about God. The term was first coined by John Toland in 1705 to identify philosophical systems that identify God with the world.



Important to pantheism is the view that there is no separation between God and the universe which is often asserted in the monotheistic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Various religions and philosophers throughout history have held pantheistic beliefs. Native American religions and the Hindu religion have pantheistic elements in them. So also do pagan and nature religions such as Wicca. The most famous philosophical promoter of pantheism was Baruch Spinoza (1632–77). Spinoza asserted that there is only one substance in the universe and this substance is divine. He is famous for declaring—“Deus sive natura” which means “God or nature.”



Some evaluators of pantheism have identified it as a mediating position between traditional theism and atheism. Others have seen it as a form of atheism since it denies the presence of a personal God.

[PaulaGem]

Pantheism is the view that identifies God with the world. Or put another way—“God is everything and everything is God.” The term “Pantheism” comes from two Greek terms—pan which means “all” and theos which means “God.” Thus, pantheism literally means “all is God.” With pantheism there is a unity to all things, and any statement about any object is a statement about God. The term was first coined by John Toland in 1705 to identify philosophical systems that identify God with the world.



Important to pantheism is the view that there is no separation between God and the universe which is often asserted in the monotheistic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Various religions and philosophers throughout history have held pantheistic beliefs. Native American religions and the Hindu religion have pantheistic elements in them. So also do pagan and nature religions such as Wicca. The most famous philosophical promoter of pantheism was Baruch Spinoza (1632–77). Spinoza asserted that there is only one substance in the universe and this substance is divine. He is famous for declaring—“Deus sive natura” which means “God or nature.”



Some evaluators of pantheism have identified it as a mediating position between traditional theism and atheism. Others have seen it as a form of atheism since it denies the presence of a personal God.

And I will repeat, that is a narrow, chauvinist interpretation that may have absolutely no relevance to the spirituality of any given individual.

By they way, you don't REALLY believe a bunch of fishermen helped write the N.T. do you? Bible historians (at least the ones not bought and paid for by the church) haven't believe the Bible was written by eyewitnesses for generations.

[sedele]

And I will repeat, that is a narrow, chauvinist interpretation that may have absolutely no relevance to the spirituality of any given individual.

By they way, you don't REALLY believe a bunch of fishermen helped write the N.T. do you? Bible historians (at least the ones not bought and paid for by the church) haven't believe the Bible was written by eyewitnesses for generations.

And I'm sure that your historians are not bought and paid for by the New Age Movement (sanctioned by the people behind the NWO) who have been trying to discredit the Word of God since many moons ago.

[heavenlyboy34]

Some interesting thoughts, thanx. :cool:


Chief White Cloud on Religion and the Great Spirit


Your religious calling was written on plates of stone by
the flaming finger of an angry God.

Our religion was established by the traditions of our
ancestors, the dreams of our elders that are given to
them in the silent hours by the Great Spirit. And the
premonitions of the learned beings.

It is written in the hearts of our people, thus:

We do not require churches - which would only lead us
to argue over God. And the thought that white men
should rule over nature and change its ways to his
liking, was never understood by the red man.

Our belief is that the Great Spirit has created all things.
Not just mankind, but all animals, all plants, all rocks,
all on Earth and amongst the stars with true soul.

For us, all life is holy.

But. You do not understand our prayers when we address
the Sun, Moon, and Winds. You have judged us without
understanding, only because our prayers are different.

But we are able to live in harmony with all of nature. All
of nature is within us and we are all part of nature.

- Chief White Cloud

[TurtleBurger]

And I will repeat, that is a narrow, chauvinist interpretation that may have absolutely no relevance to the spirituality of any given individual.

By they way, you don't REALLY believe a bunch of fishermen helped write the N.T. do you? Bible historians (at least the ones not bought and paid for by the church) haven't believe the Bible was written by eyewitnesses for generations.

Do you have any evidence that the church (whichever church you happen to mean) is bribing Bible historians? Of course you don't, you're just throwing around unfounded accusations as usual.

[PatriotOne]

And I'm sure that your historians are not bought and paid for by the New Age Movement (sanctioned by the people behind the NWO) who have been trying to discredit the Word of God since many moons ago.

Ugh. Now that this board has learned that the same interests are behind the Repubs and Dems and that this whole Political charade is nothing but a shell game it's time ya all went on to "Life 201".

The same interests that back the Dems and the Repubs are the same interests that back Christianity and the New Age. ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME. Freemasons and Christians need to break out of their conditioning to succeed. Your ALL being taken for a ride.

Pope calls for New World Order

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=pope+calls+for+new+world+order&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

[PatriotOne]

Do you have any evidence that the church (whichever church you happen to mean) is bribing Bible historians? Of course you don't, you're just throwing around unfounded accusations as usual.

There are lots of historians who take quite a different view of the bibles history than that of the dogma the church keeps repeating.

[heavenlyboy34]

There are lots of historians who take quite a different view of the bibles history than that of the dogma the church keeps repeating.

Your assertions are interesting, but would be taken more seriously here if you provide links to evidence. thnx.

HB34. :cool:

[sedele]

Ugh. Now that this board has learned that the same interests are behind the Repubs and Dems and that this whole Political charade is nothing but a shell game it's time ya all went on to "Life 201".

The same interests that back the Dems and the Repubs are the same interests that back Christianity and the New Age. ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME. Freemasons and Christians need to break out of their conditioning.

Pope calls for New World Order

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=pope+calls+for+new+world+order&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Oh. Trust me, I know all about how the NWO hijacked Christianity a long time ago. And no, the Pope does in no way represent Christ on Earth like he may say he does. I am a former catholic as well as a former "Churchian".

I do, however, believe that the Bible is the Word of the True and Living Creator.

There is a big difference between the "Christianity" you see within the mega churches and on TBN, and the true Chruch of the Bible.

The majority of Christianity you see is totally apostate (fallen away from the Truth) just as the Bible prophesied thousands of years ago.

There always has been a remnant that is the true church of Christ.

[TurtleBurger]

There are lots of historians who take quite a different view of the bibles history than that of the dogma the church keeps repeating.

I don't doubt that. What I take issue with is Paula's allegations that the church is bribing historians to confirm its teachings, and that no historian that is not on the church's (again, which church is she referring to) payroll agrees with its positions.

[PaulaGem]

The same interests that back the Dems and the Repubs are the same interests that back Christianity and the New Age. ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME. Freemasons and Christians need to break out of their conditioning to succeed. Your ALL being taken for a ride.

Most of the practitioners of alternative religions that I have come in contact with are not connected to any religious organization. They are the anarchists (perhaps iconoclast is a better word) of the religious sector.

[PaulaGem]

I don't doubt that. What I take issue with is Paula's allegations that the church is bribing historians to confirm its teachings, and that no historian that is not on the church's (again, which church is she referring to) payroll agrees with its positions.

They pretty generally fall into two camps - pro Bible are paid for by religious institutions (in the form of salaries) and pro history are part of the faculty and academia that is independent of religious institutions.

You called it a bribe, I call it a salary, it still means if they buck the party line too much they don't get the money.

[TurtleBurger]

They pretty generally fall into two camps - pro Bible are paid for by religious institutions (in the form of salaries) and pro history are part of the faculty and academia that is independent of religious institutions.

You called it a bribe, I call it a salary, it still means if they buck the party line too much they don't get the money.

"Religious institutions" can mean a lot of different things. Protestant institutions and Catholic institutions disagree on a lot of important things, but they generally agree on the history of the books of the Bible. It's hard to lump them into the same conspiracy.

[PaulaGem]

"Religious institutions" can mean a lot of different things. Protestant institutions and Catholic institutions disagree on a lot of important things, but they generally agree on the history of the books of the Bible. It's hard to lump them into the same conspiracy.

They both accept the fraud of Nicea and the paganism of Christianity.

[PaulaGem]

Your assertions are interesting, but would be taken more seriously here if you provide links to evidence. thnx.

HB34. :cool:

Most scholars in general and even many "Christian" biblical scholars do not believe the gospels were written by the apostles and they suspect or outright believe that several of the writings in the Bible attributed to Paul were not written by him at all.

It's a big complicated subject, if you search my posts I have given links in past threads.

[sedele]

They both accept the fraud of Nicea and the paganism of Christianity.

There you go with your collectivism again.

I detest the meddling of Christianity and paganism. I also am a Christian.

[PatriotOne]

Oh. Trust me, I know all about how the NWO hijacked Christianity a long time ago. And no, the Pope does in no way represent Christ on Earth like he may say he does. I am a former catholic as well as a former "Churchian".

I do, however, believe that the Bible is the Word of the True and Living Creator.

There is a big difference between the "Christianity" you see within the mega churches and on TBN, and the true Chruch of the Bible.

The majority of Christianity you see is totally apostate (fallen away from the Truth) just as the Bible prophesied thousands of years ago.

There always has been a remnant that is the true church of Christ.

Freemasonry didn't hijack Christianity. Freemasonry is the esoteric teachings of Christianity (religion in general). It has always been that way.

[TurtleBurger]

They both accept the fraud of Nicea and the paganism of Christianity.

An overlap of beliefs does not imply a conspiracy. Your statements implied that all religious organizations, both Catholic and Protestant are working collusively, using bribery, to promote a historical theory about the Bible. Is there a conspiracy or not?

[PatriotOne]

Your assertions are interesting, but would be taken more seriously here if you provide links to evidence. thnx.

HB34. :cool:

Oh heck. One only has to study the history of the bible as put forth by Christianity to question it's legitimacy. Unfortunately most Christians haven't the foggiest idea of the history of the bible.

But for alternative views try googling Comparative Religion....gets real interesting :p

[sedele]

Freemasonry didn't hijack Christianity. Freemasonry is the esoteric teachings of Christianity (religion in general). It has always been that way.

You must mean gnostic Christianity. Cause the True God of the Bible has said nothing in secret.

[TurtleBurger]

Oh. Trust me, I know all about how the NWO hijacked Christianity a long time ago. And no, the Pope does in no way represent Christ on Earth like he may say he does. I am a former catholic as well as a former "Churchian".

I do, however, believe that the Bible is the Word of the True and Living Creator.

There is a big difference between the "Christianity" you see within the mega churches and on TBN, and the true Chruch of the Bible.

The majority of Christianity you see is totally apostate (fallen away from the Truth) just as the Bible prophesied thousands of years ago.

There always has been a remnant that is the true church of Christ.

Do you think there has always been a group of Christians that rejected the Pope? I'd be interested to hear some examples from the first millennium.

[PatriotOne]

You must mean gnostic Christianity. Cause the True God of the Bible has said nothing in secret.

Ya..God's a huge fan of truth. That's why he condemed humans to death for eating from the Tree of Knowledge :rolleyes:. How dare them not want to live in perpetual ignorance :eek:

And speaking of secrets....I want to know how Noah fit all those animals in the ark. Been wondering that ever since I was over the age of ~5 and realized there were far more animals than pictured here:

http://www.rosemarycompany.com/media/WhimsicalNoahsArkBabyShowerInvitations1.jpg

[PaulaGem]

They both accept the fraud of Constantine and Nicea - that is history, it is not collectivism. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge historical fact does not change it.

[PaulaGem]

Do you think there has always been a group of Christians that rejected the Pope? I'd be interested to hear some examples from the first millennium.

Do you think that Yeshua believed in the Pope? Don't you think it odd that there are TWO gospels in the N.T. ( the blood one and the love one). Yeshua only taught about one of them in his sermons. The references about the blood gospel attributed to him are only passing remarks, not real teachings, it makes you wonder how they got there....

Don't you think it strange that Paul never quoted the sermon on the mount or the famous teachings of Yeshua? He never mentioned his Nazareth, or the annunciation, or the famous earthquake at Yeshua's death... Paul's teachings aren't very really related at all to those of Yeshua when you study them.

[PaulaGem]

So how the heck did this get derailed from a wonderful Native American statement to an attempt to prove the superiority of Christian belief?

This is one of the things that makes it embarrassing to be a Christian.

[Objectivist]

And the point the OP was shooting for is what?

I'm glad I had the opportunity to work as a bodyguard for a Indian Chief, interesting way of thinking about the energy of the planet and universe.

[Original_Intent]

So how the heck did this get derailed from a wonderful Native American statement to an attempt to prove the superiority of Christian belief?


In answer to your question, I believe the following post may have had something to do with it. I have bolded the relevant section to help you out.

That is a chauvinist interpretation of what westerners label pantheism.

In fact, most "pagans" and "pantheists" I speak of believe in the One but they do not conceptualize Him/Her in the anthropomorphic terms that westerners use.

If God is an infinite, all Knowing One, the source of all creation, it seems to make more sense to appreciate creation as a whole as the expression of the One rather than a bunch of man made words in a book.

Hope that helped.

[PaulaGem]

They address the Sun, Moon and the Winds because their god is the same god all panthiestic religions worship: the Creation.

Sorry, you must have missed this post which came just prior to mine - indicating that the "god" of the Native Americans was the creation. That is not my understanding of Native American spirituality. I believe they worship the same Creator as the Christians do.

[torchbearer]

Sorry, you must have missed this post which came just prior to mine - indicating that the "god" of the Native Americans was the creation. That is not my understanding of Native American spirituality. I believe they worship the same Creator as the Christians do.

every tribe had its own belief. kinda hard to say native american's had this belief or that belief without specifying which tribe.

[PaulaGem]

Our belief is that the Great Spirit has created all things.
Not just mankind, but all animals, all plants, all rocks,
all on Earth and amongst the stars with true soul.

For us, all life is holy.

Sounds like the Great Spirit is the Creator to me....

[someperson]

every tribe had its own belief. kinda hard to say native american's had this belief of that belief without specifying which tribe.
I was thinking the same thing. In addition, just because the Chief believes something, doesn't mean every other individual in his tribe believes exactly that. It might be good to avoid attributing beliefs, etc. to arbitrary groups and recognize the individuals.

[Working Poor]

Chief White Cloud on Religion and the Great Spirit


Your religious calling was written on plates of stone by
the flaming finger of an angry God.

Our religion was established by the traditions of our
ancestors, the dreams of our elders that are given to
them in the silent hours by the Great Spirit. And the
premonitions of the learned beings.

It is written in the hearts of our people, thus:

We do not require churches - which would only lead us
to argue over God. And the thought that white men
should rule over nature and change its ways to his
liking, was never understood by the red man.

Our belief is that the Great Spirit has created all things.
Not just mankind, but all animals, all plants, all rocks,
all on Earth and amongst the stars with true soul.

For us, all life is holy.

But. You do not understand our prayers when we address
the Sun, Moon, and Winds. You have judged us without
understanding, only because our prayers are different.

But we are able to live in harmony with all of nature. All
of nature is within us and we are all part of nature.

- Chief White Cloud

Amen

[FrankRep]

It reminds me of these immortal words:

"My God has a bigger d*** than your God!"

- George Carlin

[driller80545]

Allah and Buddha were singing at the Savoir's feast, where up in the sky an Arabian Rabbi fed Quaker Oats to a priest. Pretty good, not bad, they can't complain. Cause actually all them gods are just about the same.

[torchbearer]

It reminds me of these immortal words:

"My God has a bigger dick than your God!"

- George Carlin

I actually saw the man perform in person.

[TurtleBurger]

So how the heck did this get derailed from a wonderful Native American statement to an attempt to prove the superiority of Christian belief?

This is one of the things that makes it embarrassing to be a Christian.

How was that a "wonderful Native American statement"? The chief was bashing people who don't share his religion. I thought you were all about tolerance.

[FrankRep]

How was that a "wonderful Native American statement"? The chief was bashing people who don't share his religion. I thought you were all about tolerance.
Speaking of tolerance, what ever happened to the Native Americans? Oh yeah, we killed them all.

[heavenlyboy34]

Speaking of tolerance, what ever happened to the Native Americans? Oh yeah, we killed them all.

Except for the "Reservations" (aka holding grounds/open air prison camps).

[revolutionary8]

Speaking of tolerance, what ever happened to the Native Americans? Oh yeah, we killed them all.

Why do you say "we"?
WHO killed "all" the Native Americans? Specifically. I am pretty damned sick and tired of being blamed for EVERYTHING, and having to pay for EVERYTHING.
Personally speaking of course.

[TurtleBurger]

Why do you say "we"?
WHO killed "all" the Native Americans? Specifically. I am pretty damned sick and tired of being blamed for EVERYTHING, and having to pay for EVERYTHING.
Personally speaking of course.

I've never killed a Native American in my life.

[FrankRep]

Why do you say "we"?
WHO killed "all" the Native Americans? Specifically. I am pretty damned sick and tired of being blamed for EVERYTHING, and having to pay for EVERYTHING.
Personally speaking of course.

Fair enough. I collectivized you all.

[revolutionary8]

Fair enough. I collectivized you all.
Not only that, you misrepresented many of the settlers. Not only did many Native American Indian tribes fight for the British, they VOLUNTARILY SOLD THEIR OWN LANDS to the settlers AFTER we gained indepence FROM the British.

Good gracious.

[revolutionary8]

I've never killed a Native American in my life.

Me neither Turtle, me niether- "they" are part of my FAMILY.

[zach]

Sounds pantheistic to me.

[PaulaGem]

Not only that, you misrepresented many of the settlers. Not only did many Native American Indian tribes fight for the British, they VOLUNTARILY SOLD THEIR OWN LANDS to the settlers AFTER we gained indepence FROM the British.

Good gracious.

Native American lands were owned communally. The "sales" you talk about more often than not was a chief putting his name on paper and getting American money in return. Since he didn't have ownership or the right to sell land held in common, those transactions were largely illegal.

Big chunks of land were lost by treaty - you know where we promise to give them other land farther west for ever and ever in exchange for eastern land and then a few years we kick them off of that land.

In general, white people and their government were thieves and murderers when it came to Native Americans.

in edit - We screwed the ones who fought on our side in 1776 just as badly as those who fought for the British. That was not an issue, just the color of their skin and the fact that they had something we wanted.