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FrankRep
07-17-2009, 12:00 PM
The Prejudice of Atheists (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/constitution/1440)


Selwyn Duke | The New American (http://www.thenewamerican.com/)
Friday, 17 July 2009


Ever since the separation-of-church-and-state ruling in 1947, there has been an ever-intensifying effort to denude our public sphere of religious symbols and sentiments. The latest attack is a lawsuit to prevent "In God We Trust" and the Pledge of Allegiance from being engraved on the newly-built Capitol Visitor Center in Washington, D.C.

Filed by the Freedom from Religion Foundation, the suit claims that the mere presence of such engravings is an unconstitutional endorsement of religion. FoxNews.com reports (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/14/group-seeks-block-god-trust-engraving/?test=latestnews) on the story, telling us that the House and Senate passed resolutions earlier this month authorizing the engraving "in response to critics who complained Congress spent $621 million on the new three-story underground center without paying respect to the nation's religious heritage."

So now the other side is speaking. The question is, do they really believe what they're saying? I ask because their position on establishment strains credulity. The relevant part of the First Amendment simply states, "Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion." It says nothing about the "separation of church and state"; in fact, the principle is found nowhere in the Constitution. Sure, the phrase had been mentioned during the founders' time — such as in Thomas Jefferson's famous letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 — yet many things were mentioned but never enshrined in the Constitution. And, like them, the separation of church and state never "made the cut." Why? Because it was a minority view when our nation was born.

Moreover, we should understand why Jefferson used the phrase. He was simply trying to reassure the Danbury Baptists that, should he ascend to the presidency, he wouldn't use federal power to impose his very unorthodox brand of Christianity on them. Jefferson's "wall" was a one-way filtration system. It kept government out of religion; it had nothing to do with keeping religion out of government.

Yet no amount of historical and legal argumentation can thwart the will of those bent on revising history and creatively "interpreting" law, and such sleight-of-hand will work if citizens consider suppressing public displays of religion a moral imperative. And people today do believe this for a simple reason: prejudice.

To understand this, consider the following example. Let's say that I'm obsessed with eliminating the many American Indian names dotting our map. And let's say that the cultural climate is conducive to this endeavor and I can thus find support and a legal basis for such a cultural rending. So I scour the nation looking for "offenses" and file lawsuits against Chappaqua, N.Y., Alabama, Illinois, and Kentucky as part of a long crusade. Would a clear-thinking person find this normal? Or, would he perhaps say I had a hang-up? In point of fact, it would be right to suspect that something very ugly, very secret — perhaps even sinister — drives me.

Now, if this would strike us as the ugliest of prejudice if the target were American Indian symbols and sentiments — or if it were Spanish or black symbols and sentiments — why don't we register the same revulsion when religion is placed in these crosshairs?

"Ah," says the critic, "But this is religion, not culture." Yes, and the Indian is a red man, not a white man. So? This is precisely the prejudice of which I speak. I'll illustrate my point.

I would ask atheist critics the following: if religious ideas really are handed down by the Creator of the Universe, the author of all, don't we have a duty to infuse our public square with them? Aren't we obligated to instill children with them in school?

Of course, we know atheists will respond with eye-rolling as they say, "Well, you may believe these ideas are divine, but we don't agree. They are just man-made." And from here checkmate is easy. Simply retort, "Okay, but if they're man-made, why do you discriminate against them? Why do you say that man-made ideas we happen to call "secular" may be in the public square, but man-made ideas we happen to call "religious" may not be? If they're all man's handiwork, good fellow, wherein lies the difference?

The point is, unthinkingly subjecting something to discrimination simply because it's labeled "religious" is no different than unthinkingly subjecting a group to discrimination because of its basic skin color. Sure, there can be legitimate discrimination, such as favoring 25-year-olds over 60-year-olds when hiring police or disallowing the false religious practice of human sacrifice in deference to the valid religious injunction, "Thou shalt do no murder." But the obsession with pushing religion to the back of the bus is nothing but blind prejudice. If you want to make a logical case for this bias, go ahead. If you want to play Christopher Hitchens' tune and say that "religion poisons everything," present your evidence. If you want to explain why man, a creature who has believed in gods for millennia, should suddenly make atheism the public default, marshal your arguments. Let's have the debate. But don't simply cite constitutional principles (illusory or not), as legality doesn't determine morality. And don't expect me to accept second-class status based on being the wrong philosophical "color."

Really, part of the problem is that militant secularists have so long heard the separation-of-church-and-state mantra that they've come to believe their anti-theistic prejudice is justifiable. In fact, they fancy it a virtue. It's much like a man who is raised believing that those of a given race are second class and have no right voicing their beliefs. He may feel quite righteous about stilling their tongues, but the fact remains he has a hang-up, an obsession with no basis in reality.

This prejudice is evident in the Freedom from Religion Foundation's lawsuit. Their position is, Fox writes, that "engraving them [the religious sentiments] at the entrance to the U.S. Capitol would discriminate against those who do not practice religion and unfairly promote a Judeo-Christian perspective."

Nonsense. Government institutions will always reflect certain values and ideas; it's just a question of what they will be. For example, most atheists have no problem indoctrinating children in school with multiculturalism, feminism, and environmentalism, which all involve values. Moreover, on what basis do secularists advocate them? If they would cite divine law, it would violate their own church/state separation principle. Yet, if these ideologies are just "man-made," why should we pay them any mind? It's a bit of a catch 22, isn't it?

In reality, value neutrality is a myth. And we won't determine what values are actually moral by denying the only one who could possibly be a credible author of morality: God. The Founding Fathers understood this, that only God can ordain with credibility. It's why, for example, they emphasized that people's rights are "endowed by their creator."

It's also why they had no problem with religious elements in government. What would have outraged them are the very things most atheists support, today's secular "isms," high taxation and liberty-robbing laws. And given that the founders launched a revolution over King George III's far milder trespasses, what do you think they'd tell us to do with our secular tyrants? I think I know, and they'd wish us Godspeed in our efforts.


SOURCE:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/constitution/1440

Pennsylvania
07-17-2009, 12:01 PM
no taxes, no problem

Theocrat
07-17-2009, 12:04 PM
I couldn't agree with it more. :)

BuddyRey
07-17-2009, 12:05 PM
FrankRep, you're a good guy, and I know you mean well, but this very kind of pro-state religion polemic is exactly why I cannot rationalize joining an organization like the JBS. :(

heavenlyboy34
07-17-2009, 12:10 PM
FrankRep, you're a good guy, and I know you mean well, but this very kind of pro-state religion polemic is exactly why I cannot rationalize joining an organization like the JBS. :(

+a whole bunch.

Kraig
07-17-2009, 12:16 PM
You want an "In God We Trust" sign, pay for it yourself, stop making others pay for it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting to fund something you don't believe in, and comparing atheism with racism is absurd.


no taxes, no problem

Yes!

FrankRep
07-17-2009, 01:07 PM
FrankRep, you're a good guy, and I know you mean well, but this very kind of pro-state religion polemic is exactly why I cannot rationalize joining an organization like the JBS. :(

Just following the advice of the founding fathers....


"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

- John Adams

Kraig
07-17-2009, 01:12 PM
Just following the advice of the founding fathers....


"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

- John Adams

lmao and some people say anarchy depends on people being good

heavenlyboy34
07-17-2009, 01:14 PM
Just following the advice of the founding fathers....


"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

- John Adams

That quote does not prove that "religious" is requisite for "moral". (there are several good books on secular ethics, including Molyneux's) However, I'll grant that morality would obviously be required for a constitution to work. (this is also one of the great failings of constitutionalists-they do not account for the fact that State power naturally attracts men of low morality.)

FrankRep
07-17-2009, 01:17 PM
lmao and some people say anarchy depends on people being good

The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.

- Cornelius Tacitus (55-117 A.D.)

Kraig
07-17-2009, 01:45 PM
The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.

- Cornelius Tacitus (55-117 A.D.)

Which has little to do with how corrupt the people are, no?

FrankRep
07-17-2009, 01:54 PM
Which has little to do with how corrupt the people are, no?
Tacitus truly means the entire mass of the state, not just the government of the state.


Here's Pythagoras on the subject:

"As soon as laws are necessary for men, they are no longer fit for freedom."

Original_Intent
07-17-2009, 01:54 PM
You want an "In God We Trust" sign, pay for it yourself, stop making others pay for it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting to fund something you don't believe in, and comparing atheism with racism is absurd.

Yes!

stop funding abortion, preemptive wars, welfare state, subsidies, illegal war on drugs, affirmative action, and public education and I gladly will take my money to pay for engraving religious symbols, sentiments, etc in public places. I will pay for teachers who will teach from the Bible in school as was done throughout this country for almost the first 2 centuries of its existence.

And you can take your money to pay for engravings proclaiming THERE IS NO GOD! And you can hire teachers who will teach a strictly secular view.

Fair enough?

Bman
07-17-2009, 01:58 PM
stop funding abortion, preemptive wars, welfare state, subsidies, illegal war on drugs, affirmative action, and public education and I gladly will take my money to pay for engraving religious symbols, sentiments, etc in public places. I will pay for teachers who will teach from the Bible in school as was done throughout this country for almost the first 2 centuries of its existence.

And you can take your money to pay for engravings proclaiming THERE IS NO GOD! And you can hire teachers who will teach a strictly secular view.

Fair enough?

You're aruguing with the wrong people. There's not an atheist on this board who supports any of the items you don't want to be taxed for. Neither do we.

Original_Intent
07-17-2009, 02:07 PM
You're aruguing with the wrong people. There's not an atheist on this board who supports any of the items you don't want to be taxed for. Neither do we.

There are plenty of atheists that turn purple when people of belief want creationism taught alongside the strictly secular view. In other words they are plenty happy to take other people's money to proselyte their world view and only get riled up if another view is included.

Anyone that wants government out of all of the above areas is on the same side as me regardless of what religious beliefs they have or don't have.

Nirvikalpa
07-17-2009, 02:14 PM
There are plenty of atheists that turn purple when people of belief want creationism taught alongside the strictly secular view. In other words they are plenty happy to take other people's money to proselyte their world view and only get riled up if another view is included.

Anyone that wants government out of all of the above areas is on the same side as me regardless of what religious beliefs they have or don't have.

+1

Bman
07-17-2009, 02:15 PM
There are plenty of atheists that turn purple when people of belief want creationism taught alongside the strictly secular view. In other words they are plenty happy to take other people's money to proselyte their world view and only get riled up if another view is included.

Anyone that wants government out of all of the above areas is on the same side as me regardless of what religious beliefs they have or don't have.

Yes and I realize us telling each other what we can and cannot do will only lead to more problems. If we don't have a public school education system then people will have a choice in who they want to teach their children.

It's funny I'm pretty much an atheist, my wife considers herself catholic (althogh, I don't consider her very religious beyond believeing their is a god). Her mother teaches at a catholic school and I would much rather send my children(if and when we have some) there than to a public school.

God is axiomatic. It's either self-evident or it is not. Someone saying there's a god alone is simply not a threat to anyone who differs. My child will be left to choose their own belief, however, they will know better than to enforce it on someone else.

Bman
07-17-2009, 02:21 PM
creationism taught alongside the strictly secular view.

I do have a question on this. Like I previously said you should be able to have a complete decision on who teaches your children and what they learn.

But,

Where exactly can one read the course material for creationism, and based on that material exactly what class would it be taught in?

Here's my point I wouldn't teach someone that there are Four Oceans and Seven Seas in a math class. While both have numbers it is not math class material.

sevin
07-17-2009, 02:27 PM
In reality, value neutrality is a myth. And we won't determine what values are actually moral by denying the only one who could possibly be a credible author of morality: God. The Founding Fathers understood this, that only God can ordain with credibility. It's why, for example, they emphasized that people's rights are "endowed by their creator."

I'm starting to get tired of this crap. Everybody keeps saying there is no morality without God. Well, which God? What if you're a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Scientologist? What if the majority of Congress were Scientologists and decided to start legislating based on their beliefs. Christians are so closed-minded it makes my head spin. They don't seem to realize there is a whole planet full of different religions outside their own little world.

What is wrong with me saying, "I hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are born equal, that they are endowed by nature with certain unalienable rights." That is just as legit as the Christian idea.



It's also why they had no problem with religious elements in government. What would have outraged them are the very things most atheists support, today's secular "isms," high taxation and liberty-robbing laws.


Since when does atheism automatically lead to high taxation and liberty-robbing laws. These are ridiculous generalizations. I don't know if there is a god, but even if there isn't the truth of liberty still remains.

The article should be called, "Why I Am Prejudiced Against Atheists."

/end rant

Bman
07-17-2009, 02:41 PM
Since when does atheism automatically lead to high taxation and liberty-robbing laws. These are ridiculous generalizations. I don't know if there is a god, but even if there isn't the truth of liberty still remains.

The article should be called, "Why I Am Prejudiced Against Atheists."

/end rant

+1

Kade
07-17-2009, 02:51 PM
There seems to be a general confusion of what secularization means.

If this country were not inherently secular by it's founding, it would require direct action to implement a religious neutral authority.

Your own religious freedom is requisite and demanding of the most basic freedom afforded all of us.

When and if you no longer have "atheists" to deal with, you will again turn on yourselves, and attempt to engrave whichever version of god is the fancy at the moment into our governance.

FrankRep
07-17-2009, 03:08 PM
When and if you no longer have "atheists" to deal with, you will again turn on yourselves, and attempt to engrave whichever version of god is the fancy at the moment into our governance.

Why can't we all just Love our Neighbor and help the poor & needy (You! not the government).

Ozwest
07-17-2009, 03:17 PM
What is Liberty?

Ozwest
07-17-2009, 03:18 PM
Define it.

Ozwest
07-17-2009, 03:20 PM
I am an Atheist.

Please explain.

Ozwest
07-17-2009, 03:21 PM
I am a Libertarian.

FrankRep
07-17-2009, 03:24 PM
What is Liberty?

Tell me what you think of this...

YouTube - The Difference Between a Patriot and a Terrorist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yfm5FpRmzpc)

Ozwest
07-17-2009, 03:30 PM
I think the man holds similar views to mine.

Ozwest
07-17-2009, 03:54 PM
I would suggest while you are attempting to reform a stuffed America, you alienate as many people as possible.

Gives Goldman-Sachs more time...

Objectivist
07-17-2009, 04:06 PM
Per the Constitution, the word god has no place in a government building. Keep it in your church or prove the existence of a god and convince everyone that there is a reason to believe in this nonsense. Take note I don't care if you play with imaginary friends, or razor blades for that matter, enjoy.

Atheists don't care if your stupid, just practice your stupidity in your home or in your place of worship.

I don't want people jacking off in public buildings either, but in private you can jack off all you want.

Optatron
07-17-2009, 04:13 PM
Just following the advice of the founding fathers....


"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

- John Adams

in other words, atheists and immoral people should be treated as 2nd class citizens or expelled.

Original_Intent
07-17-2009, 04:15 PM
Per the Constitution, the word god has no place in a government building. Keep it in your church or prove the existence of a god and convince everyone that there is a reason to believe in this nonsense. Take note I don't care if you play with imaginary friends, or razor blades for that matter, enjoy.

Atheists don't care if your stupid, just practice your stupidity in your home or in your place of worship.

I don't want people jacking off in public buildings either, but in private you can jack off all you want.

Please, I beg you, tell me the relevant portion of the Constitution. And don't try the 1st Amendment bullshit because it says no such thing.

Ozwest
07-17-2009, 04:16 PM
Useless.

Ozwest
07-17-2009, 04:17 PM
No wonder politicians lead you by a nose-ring.

Objectivist
07-17-2009, 04:30 PM
Please, I beg you, tell me the relevant portion of the Constitution. And don't try the 1st Amendment bullshit because it says no such thing.

Beg away, court rulings are on my side and can you prove the relevance of imaginary people?
ANd I asked that you jack off in private..

Original_Intent
07-17-2009, 04:34 PM
Beg away, court rulings are on my side and can you prove the relevance of imaginary people?
ANd I asked that you jack off in private..

Court rulings are also on the side of war on drugs, public education, blah blah blah that we are all supposedly fighting against.

You say it says no putting the word God in a public building in the Consitution, you're full of shit and you know it.

FrankRep
07-17-2009, 04:35 PM
in other words, atheists and immoral people should be treated as 2nd class citizens or expelled.
In other words, Republics will fail if the people are immoral. The failed Republic will be replaced by a dictatorship, like what America is experiencing right now.

Enjoy.

Optatron
07-17-2009, 04:40 PM
In other words, Republics will fail if the people are immoral. The failed Republic will be replaced by a dictatorship, like what America is experiencing right now.

Enjoy.

so why shouldn't we criminalize or expell the immoral atheists to preserve our freedom and republic?

Objectivist
07-17-2009, 04:43 PM
TJ
The phrase "separation of church and state" is derived from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, Jefferson writes:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.[15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_clause

Objectivist
07-17-2009, 04:50 PM
Those here that support religion in the realm of the state are not freedom and liberty supporters as religion is oppressive to man.

heavenlyboy34
07-17-2009, 04:56 PM
Those here that support religion in the realm of the state are not freedom and liberty supporters as religion is oppressive to man.

I could say the same about those who support the State in the realm of civil society.

FrankRep
07-17-2009, 05:03 PM
Those here that support religion in the realm of the state are not freedom and liberty supporters as religion is oppressive to man.
If you think Christianity is oppressive, just wait for the power-hungry men of the New World Order grip this world. You will be ruled by someone, either God or men.

Theocrat
07-17-2009, 05:40 PM
Per the Constitution, the word god has no place in a government building. Keep it in your church or prove the existence of a god and convince everyone that there is a reason to believe in this nonsense. Take note I don't care if you play with imaginary friends, or razor blades for that matter, enjoy.

Atheists don't care if your stupid, just practice your stupidity in your home or in your place of worship.

I don't want people jacking off in public buildings either, but in private you can jack off all you want.[Emphasis mine]

Your sentiments above shows that you do not understand what the author in the OP was talking about. For you or any other "atheist" to tell Christians they should "practice your stupidity in your home or in your place of worship" is for you to impose your secular lifestyle upon Christians. You are not neutral. Who do you think you are to tell Christians how they ought to behave in public, anyway?

Besides, Christianity does not require Christians to keep their faith compartmentalized from public. Everything a Christian does is to the glory of God and edification of mankind, whether it's making public policy or giving a speech in public. We cannot separate what we believe from what we do, and neither can secularists nor anyone else, for that matter. Our Founders were strong Christian men, and they were not silent about their beliefs influencing their decisions in public office.

The secularists in our country do have an agenda. That agenda is to eradicate any Christian heritage from our halls of justice, chambers of legislation, and offices of executive administration. The article in the OP does a great job of showing that to be the case, and it is very sad that you totally missed the point just so you can go on your usual tirade against Christianity being demonstrated in public.

Optatron
07-17-2009, 05:42 PM
Those here that support religion in the realm of the state are not freedom and liberty supporters as religion is oppressive to man.

oppression is OK as long as God wills it.

heavenlyboy34
07-17-2009, 05:44 PM
[Emphasis mine]

Your sentiments above shows that you do not understand what the author in the OP was talking about. For you or any other "atheist" to tell Christians they should "practice your stupidity in your home or in your place of worship" is for you to impose your secular lifestyle upon Christians. You are not neutral. Who do you think you are to tell Christians how they ought to behave in public, anyway?

Besides, Christianity does not require Christians to keep their faith compartmentalized from public. Everything a Christian does is to the glory of God and edification of mankind, whether it's making public policy or giving a speech in public. We cannot separate what we believe from what we do, and neither can secularists nor anyone else, for that matter. Our Founders were strong Christian men, and they were not silent about their beliefs influencing their decisions in public office.

The secularists in our country do have an agenda. That agenda is to eradicate any Christian heritage from our halls of justice, chambers of legislation, and offices of executive administration. The article in the OP does a great job of showing that to be the case, and it is very sad that you totally missed the point just so you can go on your usual tirade against Christianity being demonstrated in public.

FYI, Many do, but not all. (same as any ambiguous collective)

FrankRep
07-17-2009, 05:45 PM
oppression is OK as long as God wills it.
Didn't Jesus say love your neighbor as yourself and forgive your enemies?