Florida GOP kicking out conservative / Ron Paul Republicans!

[Matt Collins]

BREAKING NEWS!


Apparently the Republican Party of Florida is trying to give the boot to about 20 or so conservative / Ron Paul Republicans in the State. Mostly it's those who are outspoken about things like limited government, John McCain, the Federal Reserve, Governor Crist (soon to be "anointed" into the Senate), and the current state of the GOP.


I've been told details, but I don't want to put anything into writing until I see it on paper first (hopefully in the next few days).


But look for this to be a major story very soon.

[emazur]

I'd like to see the neocons of the Florida GOP booted out by the RP Republicans

[FSP-Rebel]

That's too bad, RPers aren't being thrown out of the GOP up here. Come join us, we own at least 2 of the biggest county parties here, which give us major sway in the state party.

[Uriel999]

Makes sense, Florida is filled with some of the most stupid people you will ever meet when it comes to politics.

[purplechoe]

But look for this to be a major story very soon.

So the mainstream media will be all over this? Or is it up to us to make a major story out of it? :)

[purplechoe]

Makes sense, Florida is filled with some of the most stupid people you will ever meet when it comes to politics.

You haven't been to Illinois I assume. :)

[Matt Collins]

So the mainstream media will be all over this? Or is it up to us to make a major story out of it? :)Both - but we've got to get all of the facts compiled first. This is being worked on I've been told...

[Imperial]

Man, I thought the state CFL coordinator had tried to build bridges with the establishment...

[LittleLightShining]

That's too bad, RPers aren't being thrown out of the GOP up here. Come join us, we own at least 2 of the biggest county parties here, which give us major sway in the state party.

That might be because your governor is a Democrat. I see some of what Matt's talking about in VT, too.

[idiom]

Will this affect the delegate count... oh. nvm.

[Dreamofunity]

I'm glad I never tried to join the GOP here for this, among other, reasons.

[erowe1]

I'm glad I never tried to join the GOP here for this, among other, reasons.

Right. Good idea. If too many of us joined the GOP then we would be able to stop things like this from happening. And we wouldn't want that.

[muh_roads]

There is tension between the neocons and the RP'ers up here in MN but we all tolerate each other. neocons have no say because their darling michelle bachmann has been very ron paulish as of late and I think she's working to get him a speaking spot at our next state convention.

Best way to keep RP'ers in the party is to get congress critters in your state on your side. They seem to have more indirect power than the chairs of the individual state parties from my oberservation.

[angelatc]

Right. Good idea. If too many of us joined the GOP then we would be able to stop things like this from happening. And we wouldn't want that.

This.

We apparently don't stand a real chance of taking the country back if every time somebody tries to hang onto power we just walk away in a big snit.

If what Matt says is true, every single member of the FL CFL should start attending every GOP meeting.

But they won't, because they might get their feelings hurt.

[Badger Paul]

Or what you could do is start a party organization seperate from the main party, a Florida Republican Assembly, like they have in Missouri or California. This is American after all not the Soviet Union. Who is one man or a few men to say who can be a Republican and who can't?

[rp08orbust]

Both - but we've got to get all of the facts compiled first. This is being worked on I've been told...

Hell needs to be raised *before* they boot out the 20 Ron Paul Republicans. It's much easier for them to change their minds now than after the fact and after their decision has been publicized, when they can't be seen to be giving in.

Not that I have any ideas about what should be done.

[muh_roads]

Or what you could do is start a party organization seperate from the main party, a Florida Republican Assembly, like they have in Missouri or California. This is American after all not the Soviet Union. Who is one man or a few men to say who can be a Republican and who can't?

We've been trying to do that through the RLC (Republican Liberty Caucus). I believe the RNC tried to sue us because we're using the word republican. Bunch of soviets indeed.

[Fozz]

With assholes like Adam Hasner leading Florida Republicans, I am not at all surprised.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Yeah... it's very difficult being liberty free people to achieve in a NAZI, uh, I mean, NEOCON controlled party.

Both parties have massive strangleholds on the parties at state levels/copyrights/whatever

It's been hard with NVGOP/Sue Lowden and the Corporatist Cash pulling every stunt to keep out true Republicans and Libertarians.

[Conservative Christian]

This.

We apparently don't stand a real chance of taking the country back if every time somebody tries to hang onto power we just walk away in a big snit.

If what Matt says is true, every single member of the FL CFL should start attending every GOP meeting.

But they won't, because they might get their feelings hurt.

Yep, that's the problem.

Too many libertarians and conservatives walk out on an organization/group, when the group does something they don't like. All that does is allow the group to be completely taken over by infiltrators.

The infiltrators are TRYING to get good people to quit, and they're usually successful, thanks to the crybaby attitudes of many libertarians/conservatives who get their feelings hurt and walk out.

I hate to admit it, but the typical leftist is noticeably more committed to their causes, than the average libertarian/conservative is to theirs.

That's why the left has been handing us our butts for years.

[speciallyblend]

let the gop die where they must(depending on counties)! the gop can keep digging the hole deeper!! the gop is alienating themselves to oblivion!

[armstrong]

Its like David and Goliath , but in some places ( like Florida ) some sneaky bastard put a hole in Davids sling without him knowing it..

[speciallyblend]

Right. Good idea. If too many of us joined the GOP then we would be able to stop things like this from happening. And we wouldn't want that.

he has every right to not join and you shouldn't be giving him a hard time. you should be giving the gop leadership the hardtime. the fact is folks have every right to not join the gop! i am a republican. i cannot blame folks for not wanting to join a failed party!

the gop is still not listening. if the gop had made sometype of attempt to reach out to Ron Paul supporters and give them a voice in the party. more folks outside the party might join the gop. the problem is the gop leaders and most republicans! the gop has alienated these folks from joining. the fact i am still registered republican is a miracle!

the gop is sinking faster then the titanic! sooner or later ron paul republicans might need to jump ship as the gop drowns!!! there are many western states that i think could send the gop into 3rd party status! time will tell!!

[RebelRoss0587]

What is up with all of these so-called Republicans who think the best way to move the GOP forward is to boot people out? I am getting really sick of this and this can only make liberals smile when they see this type of behavior.

Conservatives are not supposed to be afraid of ideas because they are supposed to be confident enough in their own ideas that they are happy to engage in debate with anyone.

[speciallyblend]

This.

We apparently don't stand a real chance of taking the country back if every time somebody tries to hang onto power we just walk away in a big snit.

If what Matt says is true, every single member of the FL CFL should start attending every GOP meeting.

But they won't, because they might get their feelings hurt.

do not forget to blame the root of the problem. the gop leadership alienating folks from the gop!

the blame is with the gop.. you can only judge your state and county! unless you know the skinny of every county and every state. the only ones to blame for folks not wanting to jump to their death(attend gop meetings or becoming republicans) are the gop !


i guess we could blame obama for the gop problems?? the problem is the gop is not looking to the problem. the gop is the problem! folks want nothing to do with the gop in my county except the neo-cons! so the gop is dead in my county now! good news for us as we continue to support a ron paul democrat!

if you save the gop in your state fine,but in colorado i personally think we need to put the gop down like the spca would!

[speciallyblend]

What is up with all of these so-called Republicans who think the best way to move the GOP forward is to boot people out? I am getting really sick of this and this can only make liberals smile when they see this type of behavior.

Conservatives are not supposed to be afraid of ideas because they are supposed to be confident enough in their own ideas that they are happy to engage in debate with anyone.

easy answer is , corrupt gop!!

[tonesforjonesbones]

Is it Will Pitts and the RLC in Jacksonville? I know they have been giving him a VERY hard time. Here's the deal...the GOP (party leaders) are trying to fill the void with democraps...that's what they really want..a more left leaning republican party. Republican no longer seems to mean conservative...I am hearing more and more people say I'm not a republican I'm a conservative. The gop is truely becoming democrap lite. Pity..tones

[erowe1]

he has every right to not join and you shouldn't be giving him a hard time. you should be giving the gop leadership the hardtime.

Of course he has the right not to join. I never implied otherwise. And I don't begrudge anyone here the right to follow whatever strategy they think is best to improve our nation, whether that be in the GOP or a 3rd party or completely apart from all politics. But if anybody is of the perspective that they think that working within the GOP is still the best chance they have, and the thing stopping them is that they don't like the GOP leadership (and I don't either), then that's the wrong response to that problem. It's like you said, we should be giving the GOP leadership a hard time. The only people in a position to do that in such a way as to make an actual difference in who the GOP leaders are and what policies they pursue are people active in the GOP.

[speciallyblend]

Of course he has the right not to join. I never implied otherwise. And I don't begrudge anyone here the right to follow whatever strategy they think is best to improve our nation, whether that be in the GOP or a 3rd party or completely apart from all politics. But if anybody is of the perspective that they think that working within the GOP is still the best chance they have, and the thing stopping them is that they don't like the GOP leadership, then that's y don't do that because they don't like the GOP leadership (and I don't either), then that's the wrong response to that problem. It's like you said, we should be giving the GOP leadership a hard time. The only people in a position to do that in such a way as to make an actual difference in who the GOP leaders are and what policies they pursue are people active in the GOP.

yep,can you tell i am one frustrated republican. i was so much happier when i was a registered libertarian. the gop has caused me nothing but frustration and anger.

have they invented something to take for being a republican yet? hmmmm :) err;)

hell being a republican has made me want to ask a doctor for xanax so i can deal with the gop bs!!

[Conservative Christian]

What is up with all of these so-called Republicans who think the best way to move the GOP forward is to boot people out? I am getting really sick of this and this can only make liberals smile when they see this type of behavior.

Conservatives are not supposed to be afraid of ideas because they are supposed to be confident enough in their own ideas that they are happy to engage in debate with anyone.

You just don't get it, do you?

The "liberals", i.e. New World Order Socialists, took over the GOP at the top YEARS AGO.

They're INTENTIONALLY trying to purge GENUINE conservatives and libertarians from the party.

The solution is NOT to quit, run and hide when we are attacked by the GOP establishment.

Stand fast in the party and oppose them.

[erowe1]

You just don't get it, do you?

The "liberals", i.e. New World Order Socialists, took over the GOP at the top YEARS AGO.

They're INTENTIONALLY trying to purge GENUINE conservatives and libertarians from the party.

The solution is NOT to quit, run and hide when we are attacked by the GOP establishment.

Stand fast in the party and oppose them.

Actually, the establishment GOP has been marxism-friendly from the very beginning. It's not some recent aberration of the past 8 years or even the past 4 decades. There have been a few bright spots along the way where the constitutionalist, small government, minority was relatively more powerful in the party (Coolidge, Robert Taft, Goldwater). But in truth it's those bright spots that are the aberration. Here's a good article I recall reading about that last year, called "Red from the Start." It refers to a book that details how marxists from Europe were welcomed into the GOP as early as during the Civil War.
http://www.alanstang.com/index.php?/site/comments/republican_party_red_from_the_start/

[Conservative Christian]

Actually, the establishment GOP has been marxism-friendly from the very beginning. It's not some recent aberration of the past 8 years or even the past 4 decades. There have been a few bright spots along the way where the constitutionalist, small government, minority was relatively more powerful in the party (Coolidge, Robert Taft, Goldwater). But in truth it's those bright spots that are the aberration. Here's a good article I recall reading about that last year, called "Red from the Start." It refers to a book that details how marxists from Europe were welcomed into the GOP as early as during the Civil War.
http://www.alanstang.com/index.php?/site/comments/republican_party_red_from_the_start/

Your points are irrelevant.

The fact remains, the Republican Party is still the only party that has any chance of winning elections against the Democrats.

The Libertarian Party is a joke. It has fielded presidential candidates since 1972, and almost four decades later it's still lucky to get 1.5% of the popular vote.

Not to mention that the 2008 Libertarian Party presidential candidate is a career CIA agent who supported both the Iraq War and the Patriot Act.

The great Ron Paul saw the light, which is why he flatly refuses to run for office via the Libertarian or any other third party. Ron will only run as a Republican now.

Even Peter Schiff is now encouraging Libertarians to work through the Republican Party. Like Ron, he's also seen the light.

It doesn't matter if "bad people" were in the Republican party from its founding, or fifty years ago, or last week.

It is STILL the only party that can win elections against the Democrats.

[Matt Collins]

St. Johns County GOP Committee Seeks to Expel Florida RLC Chair for Speaking Against George W. Bush

Yesterday at 9:25am - http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=108248266820&ref=mf


http://external.ak.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=bb5a518a8f210635298dc2aea25f0baf&url=http%3A%2F%2Fphotos4.meetupstatic.com%2Fphotos %2Fmember%2Fa%2F4%2Fe%2F4%2Fmember_2142212.jpeg
Florida RLC Chair Will Pitts.


In what continues to be an ongoing battle between the Republican Party of Florida establishment and the Republican Party of Florida grassroots activists, the St. Johns Republican Party Executive Committee (http://sjgop.homestead.com/) passed a resolution requesting the Republican Party of Florida Chairman (Jim Greer) have Will Pitts — elected Republican Liberty Caucus of Florida Chairman — “banned from attending Republican Party functions, including sanctioned clubs of the Republican Party”.


Additionally, they resolved that Mr. Pitts be removed from the party under Fla. Stat. 103.161. Under this statute, “An individual removed from office by the chair shall not be eligible to serve on the state executive committee or any county executive committee of the political party for a period of no less than 4 years from the effective date of the removal.”


In 2008, the Republican Party of Florida sent a letter to the Republican Liberty Caucus explaining that the RLC would have to refrain from using the word Republican in its title because the state party owned the word “Republican”.


Of course, the RLC had previously been granted permission to use the word “Republican” and had the documentation to prove it, dating back well over a decade. That was just the first of the Republican Party of Florida’s many recent attempts to rid themselves of principled, liberty-loving Republicans.


So what did Will Pitts do that was so wrong that he should be removed from the party?



He:
1. attended a a rally in Minneapolis hosted by the Campaign for Liberty and wore a “Ron Paul” button on his lapel after the Republican primary;
2. attended an End the Fed (Federal Reserve Bank) Rally in Jacksonville; and
3. has spoken or written words “harmful to the GOP” — especially with regards to RPOF Chairman Jim Greer and Gov. Charlie Crist by stating they are “pathetic and embarrassing” and regarding Sen. John McCain and President George W. Bush.



Will Pitts (http://www.rlc.org/about/chapters/FL/) is a small businessman who, in 1996, founded his company, the WG Pitts Company, a construction and real estate development firm serving Northeast Florida.


On July 25, he will have to report to the Republican Party of Florida at 1pm in Kissimmee, or be removed from the party.



On the coversheet of the RPOF Grievance package was a copy of the county resolution. It is obvious that this grievance was orchestrated by State Committeeman John Woodard and State Committeewoman Becky Reichenberg despite being filed by a Bill Blythe.



Not surprisingly, Wynona Mayer and John Stevens, who opposed Reichenberg and Woodard for their State Committee seats in 2008, were also named in the resolution to have removed form the Republican Party.



Last year, Reichenberg, Woodard, and former Chairman Bob Veit switched meeting dates and times and changed local rules to prohibit new members from joining the party that would not support them. Veit also said the Republican Liberty Caucus “represents narrow political philosophy … that had limited appeal to Republican voters no less all voters”.
But the establishment is clearly in control of the GOP.



Under their leadership, the party has shrunk to only 23 percent of Americans (http://www.usnews.com/articles/opinion/2009/05/27/republican-party-shrinks-to-lowest-level-in-30-years.html) self-identifying as Republicans. And they presided over the least popular, least effective Presidency in recent memory. Not only that — but the establishment has totally hijacked the Republican Party from the grassroots activists who made it so successful throughout the 1980s and again in the mid-90s.


Please contact Bob Veit, Becky Reichenberg, and Jon Woodard (http://sjgop.homestead.com/Officers.html) (http://sjgop.homestead.com/Officers.html)to express your disappointment with their efforts to reduce the size of the Republican Party.


Please also contact Republican Party of Florida Chairman Jim Greer and politely request that Mr. Pitts be permitted to continue his participation in the Republican Party of Florida.

[Light]

Yep, that's the problem.

Too many libertarians and conservatives walk out on an organization/group, when the group does something they don't like. All that does is allow the group to be completely taken over by infiltrators.

The infiltrators are TRYING to get good people to quit, and they're usually successful, thanks to the crybaby attitudes of many libertarians/conservatives who get their feelings hurt and walk out.

I hate to admit it, but the typical leftist is noticeably more committed to their causes, than the average libertarian/conservative is to theirs.

That's why the left has been handing us our butts for years.

You hit the nail on the head.

It seems as though a lot of paleoconservative, constitutionalist, libertarian, minarchist, and anarcho-capitalists seem to just give up when things don't go there way.

A lot of us need to realize that a lot of things are stacked against us. The media, the education system, both major political parties, and culture are extremely hostile to the majority of the ideals and beliefs we hold. It took decades upon decades for them (socialists- both left and right) to get into power and transform our politics and society in the way it is now.

Meaningful change can only happen if we remain committed to the cause of liberty and smaller government. Although our power as individuals is limited, it is not to say that the individual has no power at all. We need to openly rebel against all forms of establishment, culutural and political, in order to make a real impression on people.

The current culture today is a culture based on irresponsiblity and having others (such as the government) take care of you and make decisions for you, and watch over for your well-being. We need to form a new counter-culture. Much like how the old counter-culture, made it socially acceptable to be sexually promiscuous and free to do whatever you want (which in turn created the welfare state and culture of irresponsibility), our counter-culture will be one that made it "chique" to be self-reliant and responsible.

Those that grow their own food, make their own energy, exercise self-restraint in their pursuit of happiness, and use private charity as a means to make a better community, have a large potential of attracting a lot of people that are unfamiliar with our beliefs and ideals. The culture of self-reliance and personal responsility needs to usurp the culture and irresponsibiliy and nanny-hood.

Political establishments are made up of people. People grow old, and they die. We can very well replace these people. It is very possible for us to usurp current political establishments for our own designs. Remember what Samuel Adams said, it does not take a majority to succeed in creating meaningful change, but rather a small, irrate, vocal minority. And even if we don't succeed in reining in the behemoth of an overgrown leviathan state, at least we can look upon ourselves and to our children and least say that we did do something.

[Matt Collins]

Is it Will Pitts and the RLC in Jacksonville? I know they have been giving him a VERY hard time. Here's the deal...the GOP (party leaders) are trying to fill the void with democraps...that's what they really want..a more left leaning republican party. Republican no longer seems to mean conservative...I am hearing more and more people say I'm not a republican I'm a conservative. The gop is truely becoming democrap lite. Pity..tonesYep - that's him. But there are others too.

[Matt Collins]

What is up with all of these so-called Republicans who think the best way to move the GOP forward is to boot people out? I think we should boot people out of the GOP.... those who advocate Big Government policies!

[Matt Collins]

I'm glad I never tried to join the GOP here for this, among other, reasons.Yeah that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you and everyone else who supporters Ron in your area showed up to your local GOP meeting and were vocal, then you might actually be able to influence the direction of the Party.

[Matt Collins]

Man, I thought the state CFL coordinator had tried to build bridges with the establishment...Yeah, well you can't negotiate with a snake now can you? :rolleyes:

[pennycat]

Man, I thought the state CFL coordinator had tried to build bridges with the establishment...

I think this proves my original point made six months ago. I got banned from C4L for saying it but it was true then and present circumstances prove it again. Don't make compromises with powerful enemies. They have no use for you after they get what they want. Make alliances with weaker entities because you both need each other to oppose the strong force.

[specsaregood]

Its all about the Party and that is what "they" have planned. They outlined it over 20 years ago, the endgoal is to remove candidates and just have people vote for the party which selects the "elected official".



The Committee on the Constitutional System (CCS) a group created for the bicentennial and of which more than 1/3 of the directors were CFR members proposed drastic changes to the Constitution. These changes were outlined in the book: "Reforming American Government: The Bicentennial Papers of the Committee on the Constitutional System."
Here are some of the changes they proposed:

1. No longer allow Americans to vote for individual candidates. You can only vote for a party/slate of candidates. This includes eliminating Independent candidates.

2. Expand congress, The party who's nominee became president would be able to designate 1/6 of congress members and 1/3 of all Senators.
3. Lower the requirement for Senate ratification of treaties.
4. Extend Representatives terms' from 2 to 4 years.
5. Extend Senators terms' from 6 to 8 years.
6. Allow congressman to serve in the executive branch at the same time as holding their congressional seat.
From: "Shadows of Power", pg 200

[erowe1]

Your points are irrelevant.

I don't get where you're coming from. My points are irrelevant to what? This is a discussion forum. And if my point that the GOP has always been marxist leaning is irrelevant, then doesn't that mean that your point that it has recently become marxist leaning (i.e. the post I was replying to) is equally irrelevant.

As for working within the GOP, I've never spoken against that. I advocate and do it myself. I'm a Republican precinct chair, was a delegate at my state's 2008 convention, and remain active in the party.

[Conservative Christian]

I don't get where you're coming from. My points are irrelevant to what? This is a discussion forum. And if my point that the GOP has always been marxist leaning is irrelevant, then doesn't that mean that your point that it has recently become marxist leaning (i.e. the post I was replying to) is equally irrelevant.

^Straw man alert!

I NEVER stated that the Republican Party had "recently become marxist leaning", so please stop blatantly misrepresenting my position and putting words in my mouth.

What I REALLY said was (with capitalization in the original):

"The "liberals", i.e. New World Order Socialists, took over the GOP at the top YEARS AGO."

"YEARS AGO" is NOT "recently".

Your irrelevant statements, false claims, straw man argumentation, and lack of reading comprehension have been noted, laughed at, and FLUSHED! :p

Now PLEASE try to stay on thread topic. Thank you! :)

[heath.whiteaker]

They aren't just kicking out Ron Paul Republicans or RLC members... They are even kicking out an REC Chairman. http://centralfloridapolitics.com/2009/07/11/is-the-rpof-purging-members/

[erowe1]

^Straw man alert!

I NEVER stated that the Republican Party had "recently become marxist leaning", so please stop blatantly misrepresenting my position and putting words in my mouth.

What I REALLY said was (with capitalization in the original):

"The "liberals", i.e. New World Order Socialists, took over the GOP at the top YEARS AGO."

"YEARS AGO" is NOT "recently".

Your irrelevant statements, false claims, straw man argumentation, and lack of reading comprehension have been noted, laughed at, and FLUSHED! :p

Now PLEASE try to stay on thread topic. Thank you! :)

I still don't get what you're arguing about. How is it that anything I have said is irrelevant while anything you have said is relevant? I've addressed the same topics you have. If they were relevant for you then they were for me too. And since when do we have a rule about being relevant around here anyway?

You said the GOP had been taken over by socialists (i.e. marxists) years ago (i.e. recently, as in some time more recent than the beginnings of the Republican party), while I replied that they had been that way from the start. If you want to nitpick about how many years still qualifies as "recently," and whether your use of the word "years" meant something shorter or longer than that amount, then you'll have to find someone else to argue against. My point still stands that socialism in the GOP wasn't the result of some take over causing the party to depart from its former principles. It's we constitutionalists and proponents of free markets and limited government who are the infiltrators who have tried to move the party away from its marxist roots.

[reduen]

We begin the takeover of the GOP in Arkansas This coming Tuesday!!!! Do not want to say more yet but it is definetly on...... Folks, if we can't take over an organization in the current shape of the GOP, that ain;t sayin much for us is it.....

[Conservative Christian]

I still don't get what you're arguing about. How is it that anything I have said is irrelevant while anything you have said is relevant? I've addressed the same topics you have. If they were relevant for you then they were for me too. And since when do we have a rule about being relevant around here anyway?

You said the GOP had been taken over by socialists (i.e. marxists) years ago (i.e. recently, as in some time more recent than the beginnings of the Republican party), while I replied that they had been that way from the start. If you want to nitpick about how many years still qualifies as "recently," and whether your use of the word "years" meant something shorter or longer than that amount, then you'll have to find someone else to argue against. My point still stands that socialism in the GOP wasn't the result of some take over causing the party to depart from its former principles. It's we constitutionalists and proponents of free markets and limited government who are the infiltrators who have tried to move the party away from its marxist roots.

ROTFLMAO! Your "point" does NOT stand, because you haven't proven SQUAT!

YOU are the one who first took exception to something I said. I hadn't said a single word to you in this thread, before you wanted to be a little drama queen and start NITPICKING about my claim about the Republican Party.

If you don't want to be argued with, DON'T START AN ARGUMENT! Pretty simple concept!

Just because you PROCLAIM that the Republican Party has "marxist roots", does NOT prove your case. All it proves is your gross ignorance of basic argumentation.

And any REASONABLE person doesn't consider "YEARS AGO" to be synonymous with "recently", so run along with your BS excuses and specious reasoning.

Now PLEASE try to stay on thread topic. Thank you!

[FSP-Rebel]

Floridians have it hard I see. If they get no where fighting the neocons, we'd love to have them and welcome them up here in NH - where we essentially have the state GOP on lock as of late. I was at the NH Liberty Dinner yesterday and every Republican that was there were libertarian-leaning. We have good things going on up here after we throw the dems out, no thx to the Bush-whackers. It's almost certain that NH will fall back into GOP hands in 2010, people are hating on the dems right now.

[Athan]

So the mainstream media will be all over this? Or is it up to us to make a major story out of it? :)

Since when has the mainstream media ever come to our aid?

[Dreamofunity]

Right. Good idea. If too many of us joined the GOP then we would be able to stop things like this from happening. And we wouldn't want that.

Because all the work and effort put in by everyone kicked out seemed to help, all we need is more people to waste their time.

The old school neocons aren't going to just let a group of 20 somethings walk in and take over their party, as evident by this post and earlier on during the primaries. They'll do whatever it takes to hold on to their power. I honestly don't know if it's worth the effort. I applaud those who try, but for me personally, I don't think I could associate with those neocons while still holding on to my sanity.

Maybe I'm not doing enough for liberty, but I'll stick to my statement and I am glad I didn't bother trying to join and associate with a bunch of neocons only to be kicked out when our group becomes even remotely a threat to their way of doing things. I am not glad, however, that those that did try were kicked out, and hopefully something can be done to correct this wrong doing.

Hopefully everything gets worked out, the GOP turns libertarianesq, and I get proven wrong and at that point you reluctantly allow all the non-believes, including myself, to join your cause and party as the real party of change, but for now, I'm sorry but I can't bring myself to join you. I honestly wish those who try the GOP route the best though.

[Dreamofunity]

I wish him luck, but unfortunately I don't think he'll get anywhere. They'll keep him barred and banned from their little functions since they make the rules, and he'll end up spending all his effort fighting them.

Keep us updated though.

[rp08orbust]

Floridians have it hard I see. If they get no where fighting the neocons, we'd love to have them and welcome them up here in NH - where we essentially have the state GOP on lock as of late. I was at the NH Liberty Dinner yesterday and every Republican that was there were libertarian-leaning. We have good things going on up here after we throw the dems out, no thx to the Bush-whackers. It's almost certain that NH will fall back into GOP hands in 2010, people are hating on the dems right now.

When did these libertarian-leaning Republicans get their "lock" on the NH GOP? I assume it was some time after January 2008.

[Matt Collins]

Since when has the mainstream media ever come to our aid?The liberal media likes to play up divisions within the GOP. That needs to be used to our advantage to call the GOP leadership into the spotlight when they push shenanigans such as this against limited-government/conservative Republicans.

[BudhaStalin]

Don't they see they are causing their own demise? They cant continue sticking to the same old party platform. The arguments that he is "harmful to the GOP" are laughable. The GOP is harmful to the GOP.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

Situations like this are why I am glad to be leaving Florida sometime in the coming months. This state is a disaster in one form or another. At least where I'm planning on moving now has people that I know who thinK Ron Paul is the most principled Republican out there and definitely want to end The Federal Reserve. Florida is a sinking ship and people like Charlie Crist and the neocon douchebags in control here are acting as if nothing is wrong while they purge the ranks of those of us who don't want to follow them.

[speciallyblend]

Don't they see they are causing their own demise? They cant continue sticking to the same old party platform. The arguments that he is "harmful to the GOP" are laughable. The GOP is harmful to the GOP.

yep.

[erowe1]

ROTFLMAO! Your "point" does NOT stand, because you haven't proven SQUAT!

YOU are the one who first took exception to something I said. I hadn't said a single word to you in this thread, before you wanted to be a little drama queen and start NITPICKING about my claim about the Republican Party.

If you don't want to be argued with, DON'T START AN ARGUMENT! Pretty simple concept!

Just because you PROCLAIM that the Republican Party has "marxist roots", does NOT prove your case. All it proves is your gross ignorance of basic argumentation.

And any REASONABLE person doesn't consider "YEARS AGO" to be synonymous with "recently", so run along with your BS excuses and specious reasoning.

Now PLEASE try to stay on thread topic. Thank you!

I didn't intend to start an argument. And I still don't get what you're arguing about. The only correction I offered to anything you said is when I corrected your claim that the GOP had been taken over by marxists by pointing out that marxists had been welcome in the GOP from the very beginning of the party. I provided a link to an article about it. So far you haven't replied to that point (which is your prerogative, I didn't expect a response anyway, it was just intended as a contribution to the thread, not a shot at you). You've just tried to start some kind of argument with me about peripheral things other than that. I don't care to argue about how many years qualifies as "recently" or what a person must believe about the word "recently" to qualify as a "reasonable person." That wasn't my point, and I won't take that bait. Sorry if that disappoints you. As for staying on topic, I've addressed the same topics you have. I don't know why we need a rule to stay on some special topic or who made you the referee to decide when someone has veered from that. But to whatever degree I have been either on or off topic, you have been the same.

If anybody actually wants to talk about the main point I made, which is that the GOP's marxist roots are endemic to the party and not some later infiltration, then it might be an interesting discussion. Of course you don't have to take part in discussing that if you don't want (and so far it appears you don't, which is fine). If others want to, especially if they have counter-evidence, I'm definitely interested in learning more about that.

[erowe1]

Here's something in an MSM blog about it:
http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/2009/07/rpof-accused-of-witch-hunt-purges.html

I expect that if people search Google news periodically over the next few days for things like "Florida GOP" they'll find more articles on it that might be useful for emailing to people and posting on Facebook and things to spread the word.

[JS4Pat]

The Republican Liberty Caucus of Northeast Florida...


Dear RLCNEF Members,

Unfortunately, like our State Chairman, Will Pitts, I too have received an RPOF Grievance seeking to have me removed as a Republican Precinct Committeeman as well as prohibiting me from membership in any Republican organization for the next four years.

In the Grievance I also learned that the St. Johns County Republican Executive Committee voted unanimously on August 14, 2008 to pass a resolution stating that William Pitts, Wynona Mayer and John Stevens are considered by the SJCREC to be ineligible to serve on the REC.

SJCREC Resolution:
http://files.meetup.com/1148187/SJCREC%20Resolution.pdf

Statement to RPOF State Chairman Jim Greer submitted by William Blythe:
http://files.meetup.com/1148187/William%20Blythe%20Statement%20of%20Grievance.pdf

Grievance from the RPOF:
http://files.meetup.com/1148187/Grievance.pdf

From reviewing the material, this is what I surmise as the issues behind the Grievance…

1. I was wearing a Ron Paul campaign button and attending the Rally for the Republic in Minnesota after John McCain won the GOP nomination.
(Seriously - there are photos in my grievance packet pointing this out)

2. I sent e-mails and posted online forum messages critical of today’s Republican Party that urged former Republicans to return to the GOP and join in the fight to take back/take over the party. I of course used some strong language to empathize with their anger in an effort to get them back into the Party. Language that when taken out of context - might appear that I am not supportive of the Republican Party.
(Yes, Party leaders have been busy researching and collecting my online posts and my e-mails)

What Can be Done?

The good news is that we are not alone. Other Republicans around the state who have challenged the direction of the Party have also been sent Grievances. There is a strong coalition forming to fight back against these tactics. More to come on that…

In the meantime...

If you have a FaceBook account – Please join the Restore the Republican Party of Florida Group
http://www.facebook.com/johncharlesstevens?ref=profile#/group.php?gid=114057504448&ref=mf

Please spread this message far and wide. We need all rank and file Republicans to understand what is happening to their Party in Florida.

Feel free to contact the following St. Johns County Republicans and express your feelings on this matter:

William Blythe – SJCREC member who submitted original Grievance against Will Pitts and John Stevens.
hydeinplainsight@earthlink.net

Harlan Mason – St. Johns County REC Chairman
laneharlanmason@yahoo.com

Becky Reichenberg – St. Johns County State Committeewoman
becky@thereichenbergs.com

Jon Woodard – St. Johns County State Committeeman
jgw71@aol.com

In Liberty,
John Stevens

Help us out via FaceBook:
http://www.facebook.com/johncharlesstevens?ref=profile#/group.php?gid=114057504448&ref=mf

[AuH2O]

Floridians have it hard I see. If they get no where fighting the neocons, we'd love to have them and welcome them up here in NH - where we essentially have the state GOP on lock as of late. I was at the NH Liberty Dinner yesterday and every Republican that was there were libertarian-leaning.

This is good, but excuse me for not thinking that just because every republican at a LIBERTY event is a libertarian automatically equates to having the entire party on lock. When every republican at a mainstream GOP event is libertarian-leaning, then maybe you can say you've got the party on lock.

[catdd]

"The arguments that he is "harmful to the GOP" are laughable. The GOP is harmful to the GOP."


They are their own worst enemies but their denial knows no bounds.

[New York For Paul]

I meet with Republican activists full time for a living. Here is what I can report. There is hope, but we have to work harder.

There is a huge chasm or disconnect between the Republican leaders and many of the grassroots.

The top republican leaders have very little idea that the base of the party and those that provide the funding for the party are very limited government types, small businessmen, entrepreneurs and others.

Unfortunately, the base of the party doesn't know much about Ron Paul either. That is the biggest problem. Even after one presidential campaign millions of republican activists and donors either know nothing about Dr. Paul and know very little.

There are masses of Republicans ready to be converted, but they have not yet received information about Ron Paul.

There is massive anger among republican activists and donors about what has happened over the last four years.

We just have to keep fighting.

[angelatc]

That's too bad, RPers aren't being thrown out of the GOP up here. Come join us, we own at least 2 of the biggest county parties here, which give us major sway in the state party.

Well, then you should be working on closing your primary.

[Dorfsmith]

I appreciate those of you who are working within the Republican party but sometimes I wonder why we even try. They obviously don't want us and they're obviously falling apart. Screw the Republican party. :mad:

[New York For Paul]

I appreciate those of you who are working within the Republican party but sometimes I wonder why we even try. They obviously don't want us and they're obviously falling apart. Screw the Republican party. :mad:

Which part of the Republican party are you talking about?

The elites are very liberal or moderate and big spenders.

Other parts, the grassroots would welcome fiscal conservatives into the party. If fact, they are clamoring for it.

The small businessmen donors, even the large businessmen donors want smaller, limited government. Assuming large businessmen donors will even be around in three years, they are waiting and willing to embrace the Ron Paul message.

[Dorfsmith]

All I know is that the Republicans at my local tea party are not willing to accept the Ron Paul message. They thought I was part of the counter protest just because I had a campaign for liberty sign.

[New York For Paul]

All I know is that the Republicans at my local tea party are not willing to accept the Ron Paul message. They thought I was part of the counter protest just because I had a campaign for liberty sign.

I think they are afraid of other issues such as legalizing drugs, and other issues.

That is strange, because isn't the tea party protesting higher taxes and Ron Paul has never voted for a tax increase.

As I talk to many republican office holders, activists, donors and others every day, the one complaint I hear the most is about the deficits and big government which is right up Ron Paul's alley.

It won't be easy.

[Dorfsmith]

I think they are afraid of other issues such as legalizing drugs, and other issues.

That is strange, because isn't the tea party protesting higher taxes and Ron Paul has never voted for a tax increase.

As I talk to many republican office holders, activists, donors and others every day, the one complaint I hear the most is about the deficits and big government which is right up Ron Paul's alley.

It won't be easy.

The biggest problem they had with me (and I talked to lots of people) was that Ron Paul did not support the war in Iraq. They refused to step out of the tiny box in their minds.

[New York For Paul]

The biggest problem they had with me (and I talked to lots of people) was that Ron Paul did not support the war in Iraq. They refused to step out of the tiny box in their minds.

Now that it is Obama's war, that could start to change. Granted this is a big issue.

It is very complicated with many nuances for the Republican Party.

I felt Ron Paul did not explain his position on the war in a very smart way during the campaign.

Once many Republicans heard about his stance on the war, they refused to listen any further, even though they would support Ron Paul on spending and economics.
There are many conservative reasons to be against the war or for changing the strategy.

[Dorfsmith]

Now that it is Obama's war, that could start to change. Granted this is a big issue.

It is very complicated with many nuances for the Republican Party.

I felt Ron Paul did not explain his position on the war in a very smart way during the campaign.

Once many Republicans heard about his stance on the war, they refused to listen any further, even though they would support Ron Paul on spending and economics.
There are many conservative reasons to be against the war or for changing the strategy.

Everybody I talked to said they agreed with the Obama surge. These people live and breath war.

[catdd]

" Ron Paul did not support the war in Iraq"

That still can't get it through those thick heads that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and had no WMD. In other words that still can't understand that we attacked (and are continuing to attack) an innocent country.
It's just amazing that so many people can have their collective heads stuck so far up their asses.

[catdd]

" Ron Paul did not support the war in Iraq"

They still can't get it through those thick heads that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and had no WMD? In other words they still can't understand that we attacked (and are continuing to attack) an innocent country?
It's just amazing that so many people can have their collective heads stuck so far up their asses.
But I believe you're right; I think that is the main reason he was laughed at, marginalized, and in the end, denied.
They honestly believe that George Bush invaded Iraq to make them safe and we are saying he was wrong....
and for them to admit that it was a monumental blunder would mean that thousands of lives and trillions of dollars were wasted.
They will never admit it.

I'm just speechless right now. I mean the full impact of the situation just hit me like a ton of bricks.

[dr. hfn]

Florida sux

[catdd]

It's not just Fla. I bet it's the entire nation.

[Matt Collins]

I appreciate those of you who are working within the Republican party but sometimes I wonder why we even try. They obviously don't want us and they're obviously falling apart. Screw the Republican party. :mad:The guy who this forum is named after would disagree with you!

[Objectivist]

As this spreads there will be a place for a Freedom Party or Liberty Party. Hey Matt! Want to start writing our platform and setting up a bank account?

I know lets hijack the Campaign for Liberty and make it a political party.:eek:

I'm serious Dude!

[Objectivist]

Reality is most people lay in the center of the spectrum and few are taking over from the extremes. On one side you have the non-thinking liberals that base environmentalism in words backed with no science and the other side bases it's ideals in religious words not backed by science. Both are a thinking mans no-man-land.

70% of the country is in the middle and wants the government to change and a recent poll shows most want a smaller less taxing government. Now dump the extremes and we takeover the whole shebang!

[New York For Paul]

" Ron Paul did not support the war in Iraq"

That still can't get it through those thick heads that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and had no WMD. In other words that still can't understand that we attacked (and are continuing to attack) an innocent country.
It's just amazing that so many people can have their collective heads stuck so far up their asses.
But I believe you're right; I think that is the main reason he was laughed at, marginalized, and in the end, denied.
They honestly believe that George Bush invaded Iraq to make them safe and we are saying he was wrong....

I'm just speechless right now. I mean the full impact of the situation just hit me like a ton of bricks.

It might be a little more complicated than that. But it is messed up. We had Iraq shooting at our jets for years enforcing the "UN" no fly zone.

Saddam had technically cried uncle during the "first war" and hostilities ended.
But then he started shooting at us. Whether we should be enforcing UN stuff is another question.

There are just too many problems with the Iraq war and the many justifications, but you do have address the issue realistically. You just can't go around calling the republicans names. There is a complex history for the war in Iraq, including multiple "UN resolutions" with the international community giving the go ahead to invade.

It is up to Ron Paul to really argue each aspect of the war.

[catdd]

Most conservatives believe we invaded Iraq for their safety. That believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and they were going to use them.
They may come up with other justifications but most will tell you that George Bush was keeping them safe. And also that the money he was spending on the war was to keep them safe and that is how we got into this financial crisis.
It's complete denial. And what argument could he possibly give them that would make them admit the worst?
They do not want us around, they want us as far away from the GOP as possible.

[catdd]

Anyway, I feel sick and need to go to bed. But I think we have been presented with some valuable information here and we need to figure out what to do with it.
Most of us have gone beyond it, but the Iraq war is a major issue and the majority of the GOP still have their heads buried in the sand.

[RonPaulR3VOLUTION]

..

[Wadesc]

I'm going to have to disagree with Ron Paul on possible redemption of the Republican Party. Just my opinion, but I've almost completely lost any appetite in having anything to do with that withering carcass of an organization.

I just don't see how the past can be undone.

[Dorfsmith]

The guy who this forum is named after would disagree with you!

I appreciate you and Ron Paul working within the Republican party and I think liberty people need to be everywhere but I don't think the Republican party will ever recover. Time to look to the future. I will never register as a Republican again.

[Matt Collins]

I'm going to have to disagree with Ron Paul on possible redemption of the Republican Party. Just my opinion, but I've almost completely lost any appetite in having anything to do with that withering carcass of an organization.

I just don't see how the past can be undone.

I appreciate you and Ron Paul working within the Republican party and I think liberty people need to be everywhere but I don't think the Republican party will ever recover. Time to look to the future. I will never register as a Republican again.


How many local Republican Party meetings have the two of you attended? Have you put out any effort at all in this matter?:confused:

[reduen]

Matt, I personally believe that it is a lost cause but I refuse to let that stop me anymore....! I will also fully support third party movements but look out because things are fixing to happen here in the Arkansas GOP!!!!!!!!!

RISE EVERYONE AND TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE....! THE WAY TO PREVENT ANY VIOLENCE IS TO MOVE NOW HARD AND FAST...! :cool:

[Dorfsmith]

How many local Republican Party meetings have the two of you attended? Have you put out any effort at all in this matter?:confused:

You would be surprised at how many Republican events I've been too.

[catdd]

The Florida GOP is on the verge of bankruptcy, their numbers are dwindling, and the time is ripe for a takeover. I think we should hit them with some lawsuits and fight them tooth and nail on this issue.
I don't like the idea of being chased out.

[paulitics]

It's not about redeeming the republican party, but getting the message out through the apparatus of the republican party. It's challenging, but possible as Ron Paul has already proved. It simply isn't effective through the libertarian party for many reasons.

In time, real change will occur as more ordinary citizens become involved, likely inspired by Paul, Schiff, rand and others. This is the best strategy, because it has already proved itself succesul in influencing the hearts and minds of people.

The leadership is corrupt, out of touch, but becoming less powerful as their motives become apparent to all. They will eventually fail if enough of us get involved.

The strategy of fringe party, or worse nonparticipation that many are advocating will get us nowhere. It will ensure defeat.

[speciallyblend]

I appreciate you and Ron Paul working within the Republican party and I think liberty people need to be everywhere but I don't think the Republican party will ever recover. Time to look to the future. I will never register as a Republican again.

i am still registered republican, but i agree with you. the brandname is so tarnished. No one wants to be asscoiated as a republican!

the gop is pretty close to polling 3rd party status in some states. I personally do not think the gop can recover> they have tarnished their brandname! It is like trying to sell a person a bag of crap but calling it Gold. It is still crap!

personally .if the factions of the lp/cp/tp and rpr/rpd and indy's joined . the gop would be a 3rd party and the new coalition would be the 2nd major party in most states if not all without all the crap baggage!

the idea your gonna convert a major part of the neo-cons! is a dream!! let the neo-cons have their dying party!
i will keep my republican registration for now. I see some gains in some counties but the state leadership is still the same in every state!

the gop needs to hit rock bottom! the gop doesn't back liberty candidates! They have yet to change anything in state platofrms that is even close to Ron Paul's Platform! the gop has 2 choices change in the next 8-12 yrs or die in the next 2-12yrs! i do not see any changes that come close to our revolution, except some neo-cons trying to hi-jack our message! not acceptable!! the gop is still deaf dumb and blind! maybe in 4-12 yrs if they open their eyes and run Liberty Candidates but since they haven't changed any platforms yet. We are no where near changing the gop ,since they haven't listened yet! maybe in the future? the gop is still not listening,so my vote sits here waiting to send the gop packing until then! the gop hasn't earned my vote yet and they never will until they give us a voice in our party. which they do not plan on!

the gop in lake county republican will get what they deserve nothing!

I will be supporting Ron Paul Dems in Lake county colorado! sad when you have to support ron paul republicans in the democratic party. the gop is still turning their backs on ron paul supporters! The gop truly is deaf dumb and blind and i will be glad to keep them on that level with my vote!!

the gop does not want to win, if they did they would of never alienated ron paul supporters the last 2 yrs and still counting!! i relate the gop leaders and most republicans to a heroin addict that still needs to hit rock bottom to get rid of their addiction to bad government and big goverment! the gop only has themselves to blame! they alienated us! They have done nothing to gain our votes and the arguement but but but obama is running is not going to have me running to the gop with a blind vote!!

deal with typos spell check not working

[speciallyblend]

It's not about redeeming the republican party, but getting the message out through the apparatus of the republican party. It's challenging, but possible as Ron Paul has already proved. It simply isn't effective through the libertarian party for many reasons.

In time, real change will occur as more ordinary citizens become involved, likely inspired by Paul, Schiff, rand and others. This is the best strategy, because it has already proved itself succesul in influencing the hearts and minds of people.

The leadership is corrupt, out of touch, but becoming less powerful as their motives become apparent to all. They will eventually fail if enough of us get involved.

The strategy of fringe party, or worse nonparticipation that many are advocating will get us nowhere. It will ensure defeat.

huh? the fringe party is the republican party!(i do agree use the gop to help spread our message for sure,but in the end if the gop fails to listen us them let them die as they should. if the 3rd parties will get off their own train and unite as ron paul showed . then the gop in colorado will be the 3rd party!

i do not argree with your idea that politics never changes! the gop is doing nothing to make themselves a viable 2nd party! as for the lp/cp/tp and rpr/rpd and indys. if we unite under a new platofrm that doesn't have the shit name repub;oican under it! then we would be the next viablew party! i 100% disagree on the idea that the gop is the only way! The gop is this close to being a 3rd party in Colorado! never say never . if what you say is true. then we would never had a republican party! you cannot predict the future! i say the gop will be a 3rd party soon if they do not listen!

we just need to make a new brandname that the tp/lp/cp/rpr/rpd and indy's can unite under! Ron Paul's Platform proved that or i wouldn't be a disgusted republican! It is about the platform not the party! the fact is the gop[ has done nothing to change their platform to Ron Pauls and nor do i see it in the near future maybe 4-12 yrs depending! until then i think a new coalition in colorado is needed. if we form a new coalition then the new 3rd party will be the gop. while we become the second major party in Colorado. Seems alot faster then waiting 12 yrs for the gop to open their eyes and ears!
thegop will be a 3rd party soon if they do not listen and that is the gop's problem not mine!

I am here to help the gop but if they refuse the help. then i will be here to help put down the gop like the spca! the gop will make their own future.If they fail to listen . i predict the gop will be a 3rd party in Colorado sooner then you think. Is it that my fault? NOPE! the blame is with the gop! the gop is not listening. if we have to run ron paul republicans as democrats in Colorado;) which we will have to do. then the gop gets what it deserves NOT A DAM THING!!

nobody is saying do not get involved .what they are saying is get involved with a party that is growing not shrinking! just because they are not involved in the failed gop does not mean they are not moving our revolution further. it is not about the gop. if you want to know why folks want nothing to do with the gop. you should bring it up with your gop leadership. it is not the fault of the voter .it is the gop that is alienating folks. i hope the gop continues to alienate folks! the gop deserves the ditch! i went to the gop meetings the last 2 yrs(neo-con lovefest). they are not listening. the gop deserves to shrink! if the gop becomes a 3rd party in some states. they deserve that as welL the gop can become a 3rd party just like they became a 2nd party! politics never happens overnight! we will not have to worry about the gop being a 2nd major party. if we send it to 3rd party status. the gop is doing that on their own! if the gop will not listen. then i will send the gop where they belong to a 3rd party status. i am a republican but the gop has done nothing to earn my vote!

right now all the ron paul republicans and neo-cons are arguing over is a party of shit! in the end it is still a bag of shit! the problem with the term gop/republican is the brandname! In Colorado i hope we continue to unify the ron paul republicans in the gop but sooner or later we need to unify beyond party lines and the gop is not the vehicle to do it in Colorado. I am leaning more for a new party with new platform that makes the gop a 3rd party while we unite the lp/cp/tp and rpr/rpd and indy's! on that note why would we need a useless 3rd party like the gop .when we have a new coalition that far exceeds the % of the failed coloradogop! the bottom line the gop better morph into a ron paul platform party or the gop will become a 3rd party cin Colorado. do i have aproblem with that? HELL NO . BRING IT ON! the gop deserves whatever happens politically in everystate!

deal with typos spell check not working screw fiefox/mozilla and chrome! can i just get one browser that works without crashing!

[LibertyEagle]

To each their own, but how do you think the neocons took over the conservative movement in the Republican party, to begin with? They didn't outnumber the limited government folks. They infiltrated, showed up, got elected to positions from the ground floor on up and then, converted.

We could do the same and are, if we just won't give up.

[speciallyblend]

To each their own, but how do you think the neocons took over the conservative movement in the Republican party, to begin with? They didn't outnumber the limited government folks. They infiltrated, showed up, got elected to positions from the ground floor on up and then, converted.

We could do the same and are, if we just won't give up.

well that is great but in some areas neo-cons firmly control the party and trying to get someone to attend a republican meeting is like getting them to jump of a building! so in the states and counties were the neoc-ns control let them kill the party!
it really depends on your state and local politics. what is good for your county and state may not be the same for my county and state. let the gop die where it musts and if you can save a local gop then do it! if not let them die. sooner or later the ron paul republicans can either control their gop or not. when they finally control the state if they ever do then fine. if not then you take your republican wing and leave the gop and form a new coalition. this is how it was done when the gop became a 2nd party and it can happen to make the gop a 3rd party and bring in a new party or new coalitions! the path can have 2 roads to travel not just one road blindly supporting gop just because it has the word republican.

every ron paul republican that voted for mccain or endorsed a somewhat neo-con against a dem deserves the gop they are getting .they endorsed the very platform they voted for neo-cons! so for all the lesser of 2 evils that voted out of fear of obama and voted mccain. you get exactly what you voted for a neo-con platform! you voted for it!

the gop has a choice follow us or get the f out of the way! so far the gop is still not listening. when i hear a state platform has changed to a ron paul platform then maybe. but i am not waiting 4-12 yrs for the gop to get its act together! i will pursue the best road to change things in colorado and so far the gop is not that vehicle! it is helpful to unite thinkers in the gop to our cause! but the cogop is not endorsing ron paul republicans but the democrats are in Colorado! sounds like a cogop problem! i will be working to support ron paul republicans in the democratic party and the lp/cp/tp and the gop (if they ever have any)??? the cogop is making the problem not me. So i will save my money and time supporting Liberty Candidaates in any party. upto the gop if they want my support in their candidates! until they give me something to vote for .they get nothing!!

[literatim]

If you can't even take over one party, what makes you think you will ever take over the whole government?

[georgiaboy]

I call BS on the Florida GOP leadership for this attempted ouster of solid conservative Republicans from the party.

This is throw down the gauntlet time. This reminds me of the RP Republicans out in California who had a lawsuit thrown at them but were successful! Get in touch with those guys.

Fight this. FIGHT IT! Create the biggest stink you can. Fight the Bailouters! Fight the the Big Government Fake Republicans!


This needs to go national -- come on bloggers, C4L! Get this out there! People - this is where it happens - local level. Win here, win all the way up the line!

[New York For Paul]

Florida is still probably dominated by the Jeb Bush machine, you wouldn't expect them to give up without a fight would you?

Is there some liberty candidates running for office that can lead the fight?

What about Mario Rubio? Isn't he leading a charge against Governor Crist?

[New York For Paul]

Iraq: Claim vs. Reality
by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

...

Mr. Speaker, consider some of the following claims presented by supporters of this resolution, and contrast them with the following facts:

Claim: Iraq has consistently demonstrated its willingness to use force against the US through its firing on our planes patrolling the UN-established "no-fly zones."

Reality: The "no-fly zones" were never authorized by the United Nations, nor was their 12 year patrol by American and British fighter planes sanctioned by the United Nations. Under UN Security Council Resolution 688 (April, 1991), Iraq's repression of the Kurds and Shi'ites was condemned, but there was no authorization for "no-fly zones," much less airstrikes. The resolution only calls for member states to "contribute to humanitarian relief" in the Kurd and Shi'ite areas. Yet the US and British have been bombing Iraq in the "no-fly zones" for 12 years. While one can only condemn any country firing on our pilots, isn't the real argument whether we should continue to bomb Iraq relentlessly? Just since 1998, some 40,000 sorties have been flown over Iraq.

Claim: Iraq is an international sponsor of terrorism.

Reality: According to the latest edition of the State Department's Patterns of Global Terrorism, Iraq sponsors several minor Palestinian groups, the Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK), and the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK). None of these carries out attacks against the United States. As a matter of fact, the MEK (an Iranian organization located in Iraq) has enjoyed broad Congressional support over the years. According to last year's Patterns of Global Terrorism, Iraq has not been involved in terrorist activity against the West since 1993 – the alleged attempt against former President Bush.

Claim: Iraq tried to assassinate President Bush in 1993.

Reality: It is far from certain that Iraq was behind the attack. News reports at the time were skeptical about Kuwaiti assertions that the attack was planned by Iraq against former President Bush. Following is an interesting quote from Seymore Hersh's article from Nov. 1993:

Three years ago, during Iraq's six-month occupation of Kuwait, there had been an outcry when a teen-age Kuwaiti girl testified eloquently and effectively before Congress about Iraqi atrocities involving newborn infants. The girl turned out to be the daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador to Washington, Sheikh Saud Nasir al-Sabah, and her account of Iraqi soldiers flinging babies out of incubators was challenged as exaggerated both by journalists and by human-rights groups. (Sheikh Saud was subsequently named Minister of Information in Kuwait, and he was the government official in charge of briefing the international press on the alleged assassination attempt against George Bush.) In a second incident, in August of 1991, Kuwait provoked a special session of the United Nations Security Council by claiming that twelve Iraqi vessels, including a speedboat, had been involved in an attempt to assault Bubiyan Island, long-disputed territory that was then under Kuwaiti control. The Security Council eventually concluded that, while the Iraqis had been provocative, there had been no Iraqi military raid, and that the Kuwaiti government knew there hadn't. What did take place was nothing more than a smuggler-versus-smuggler dispute over war booty in a nearby demilitarized zone that had emerged, after the Gulf War, as an illegal marketplace for alcohol, ammunition, and livestock.

This establishes that on several occasions Kuwait has lied about the threat from Iraq. Hersh goes on to point out in the article numerous other times the Kuwaitis lied to the US and the UN about Iraq. Here is another good quote from Hersh:

The President was not alone in his caution. Janet Reno, the Attorney General, also had her doubts. "The A.G. remains skeptical of certain aspects of the case," a senior Justice Department official told me in late July, a month after the bombs were dropped on Baghdad...Two weeks later, what amounted to open warfare broke out among various factions in the government on the issue of who had done what in Kuwait. Someone gave a Boston Globe reporter access to a classified C.I.A. study that was highly skeptical of the Kuwaiti claims of an Iraqi assassination attempt. The study, prepared by the C.I.A.'s Counter Terrorism Center, suggested that Kuwait might have "cooked the books" on the alleged plot in an effort to play up the "continuing Iraqi threat" to Western interests in the Persian Gulf. Neither the Times nor the Post made any significant mention of the Globe dispatch, which had been written by a Washington correspondent named Paul Quinn-Judge, although the story cited specific paragraphs from the C.I.A. assessment. The two major American newspapers had been driven by their sources to the other side of the debate.

At the very least, the case against Iraq for the alleged bomb threat is not conclusive.

Claim: Saddam Hussein will use weapons of mass destruction against us – he has already used them against his own people (the Kurds in 1988 in the village of Halabja).

Reality: It is far from certain that Iraq used chemical weapons against the Kurds. It may be accepted as conventional wisdom in these times, but back when it was first claimed there was great skepticism. The evidence is far from conclusive. A 1990 study by the Strategic Studies Institute of the U.S. Army War College cast great doubts on the claim that Iraq used chemical weapons on the Kurds. Following are the two gassing incidents as described in the report:

In September 1988, however – a month after the war (between Iran and Iraq) had ended – the State Department abruptly, and in what many viewed as a sensational manner, condemned Iraq for allegedly using chemicals against its Kurdish population. The incident cannot be understood without some background of Iraq's relations with the Kurds...throughout the war Iraq effectively faced two enemies – Iran and elements of its own Kurdish minority. Significant numbers of the Kurds had launched a revolt against Baghdad and in the process teamed up with Tehran. As soon as the war with Iran ended, Iraq announced its determination to crush the Kurdish insurrection. It sent Republican Guards to the Kurdish area, and in the course of the operation – according to the U.S. State Department – gas was used, with the result that numerous Kurdish civilians were killed. The Iraqi government denied that any such gassing had occurred. Nonetheless, Secretary of State Schultz stood by U.S. accusations, and the U.S. Congress, acting on its own, sought to impose economic sanctions on Baghdad as a violator of the Kurds' human rights.

Having looked at all the evidence that was available to us, we find it impossible to confirm the State Department's claim that gas was used in this instance. To begin with, there were never any victims produced. International relief organizations who examined the Kurds – in Turkey where they had gone for asylum – failed to discover any. Nor were there ever any found inside Iraq. The claim rests solely on testimony of the Kurds who had crossed the border into Turkey, where they were interviewed by staffers of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee...

It appears that in seeking to punish Iraq, the Congress was influenced by another incident that occurred five months earlier in another Iraqi-Kurdish city, Halabjah. In March 1988, the Kurds at Halabjah were bombarded with chemical weapons, producing many deaths. Photographs of the Kurdish victims were widely disseminated in the international media. Iraq was blamed for the Halabjah attack, even though it was subsequently brought out that Iran too had used chemicals in this operation and it seemed likely that it was the Iranian bombardment that had actually killed the Kurds.
Thus, in our view, the Congress acted more on the basis of emotionalism than factual information, and without sufficient thought for the adverse diplomatic effects of its action.

Claim: Iraq must be attacked because it has ignored UN Security Council resolutions – these resolutions must be backed up by the use of force.

Reality: Iraq is but one of the many countries that have not complied with UN Security Council resolutions. In addition to the dozen or so resolutions currently being violated by Iraq, a conservative estimate reveals that there are an additional 91 Security Council resolutions by countries other than Iraq that are also currently being violated. Adding in older resolutions that were violated would mean easily more than 200 UN Security Council resolutions have been violated with total impunity. Countries currently in violation include: Israel, Turkey, Morocco, Croatia, Armenia, Russia, Sudan, Turkey-controlled Cyprus, India, Pakistan, Indonesia. None of these countries have been threatened with force over their violations.

Claim: Iraq has anthrax and other chemical and biological agents.

Reality: That may be true. However, according to UNSCOM's chief weapons inspector 90–95 percent of Iraq's chemical and biological weapons and capabilities were destroyed by 1998; those that remained have likely degraded in the intervening four years and are likely useless. A 1994 Senate Banking Committee hearing revealed some 74 shipments of deadly chemical and biological agents from the U.S. to Iraq in the 1980s. As one recent press report stated:

One 1986 shipment from the Virginia-based American Type Culture Collection included three strains of anthrax, six strains of the bacteria that make botulinum toxin and three strains of the bacteria that cause gas gangrene. Iraq later admitted to the United Nations that it had made weapons out of all three...

The CDC, meanwhile, sent shipments of germs to the Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission and other agencies involved in Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. It sent samples in 1986 of botulinum toxin and botulinum toxoid – used to make vaccines against botulinum toxin – directly to the Iraqi chemical and biological weapons complex at al-Muthanna, the records show.

These were sent while the United States was supporting Iraq covertly in its war against Iran. U.S. assistance to Iraq in that war also included covertly-delivered intelligence on Iranian troop movements and other assistance. This is just another example of our policy of interventionism in affairs that do not concern us – and how this interventionism nearly always ends up causing harm to the United States.

Claim: The president claimed last night that: "Iraq possesses ballistic missiles with a likely range of hundreds of miles; far enough to strike Saudi Arabia, Israel, Turkey and other nations in a region where more than 135,000 American civilians and service members live and work."

Reality: Then why is only Israel talking about the need for the U.S. to attack Iraq? None of the other countries seem concerned at all. Also, the fact that some 135,000 Americans in the area are under threat from these alleged missiles just makes the point that it is time to bring our troops home to defend our own country.

Claim: Iraq harbors al-Qaeda and other terrorists.

Reality: The administration has claimed that some Al-Qaeda elements have been present in Northern Iraq. This is territory controlled by the Kurds – who are our allies – and is patrolled by U.S. and British fighter aircraft. Moreover, dozens of countries – including Iran and the United States – are said to have al-Qaeda members on their territory. Of the other terrorists allegedly harbored by Iraq, all are affiliated with Palestinian causes and do not attack the United States.

Claim: President Bush said in his speech on 7 October 2002: " Many people have asked how close Saddam Hussein is to developing a nuclear weapon. Well, we don't know exactly, and that's the problem..."

Reality: An admission of a lack of information is justification for an attack?

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul58.html

I spent alot of time on the campaign. I don't remember seeing this before. And if I don't remember seeing this, then I am sure most republicans have never been exposed to this. It is somewhat persuasive with many facts. It is still a tall order to change many republicans minds, but this is a good place to start.

[erowe1]

What about Mario Rubio? Isn't he leading a charge against Governor Crist?

We do have some Rubio fans around here. But none of them have been able to provide any evidence that he is any better than Crist. He certainly hasn't publicly taken any positions that any Ron Paul supporters should be excited about. To me he looks like an establishment decoy along the lines of what Pat Toomey is up in PA (supposedly more conservative than Specter but actually not). It looks like the closest thing to a constitutionalist in the FL Senate race is Bob Smith, who, despite already having experience as a US senator, is completely marginalized in the FL GOP.

[Matt Collins]

It's not about redeeming the republican party, but getting the message out through the apparatus of the republican party. It's challenging, but possible as Ron Paul has already proved. It simply isn't effective through the libertarian party for many reasons.

The strategy of fringe party, or worse nonparticipation that many are advocating will get us nowhere. It will ensure defeat.


To each their own, but how do you think the neocons took over the conservative movement in the Republican party, to begin with? They didn't outnumber the limited government folks. They infiltrated, showed up, got elected to positions from the ground floor on up and then, converted.

We could do the same and are, if we just won't give up.



If you can't even take over one party, what makes you think you will ever take over the whole government?


In my conversation with Ron (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=197685) a couple of weeks ago I sort of asked him about this and told him what we were up to in TN (I'm the vice chair of the Nashville GOP with at least 6 other limited-government types on the Executive Committee too). Ron essentially said that while controlling the Party may not be possible, we should work to influence its direction.

[New York For Paul]

We do have some Rubio fans around here. But none of them have been able to provide any evidence that he is any better than Crist. He certainly hasn't publicly taken any positions that any Ron Paul supporters should be excited about. To me he looks like an establishment decoy along the lines of what Pat Toomey is up in PA (supposedly more conservative than Specter but actually not). It looks like the closest thing to a constitutionalist in the FL Senate race is Bob Smith, who, despite already having experience as a US senator, is completely marginalized in the FL GOP.

There is a difference between Toomey and Specter, especially on spending hopefully.

I am optimistic about the potential to take over the party, however, we have to get our act together to actually do it. Everybody knows about shortcomings of the presidential campaign and even CFL, until we are marginally more effective than our opponents, they will be able to control the party.

Having spoken to hundreds and thousands of gop activists and donors the last six months, the majority of them are fed up with the current leadership and are screaming for change. I know because they scream at me, until I let them know I am on their side and agree with them on many issues.

Ron Paul's challenge to is to get his message out. Plus, activists like ourselves have to run for local GOP positions.

And we certainly can't have a chip on our shoulder when we are trying to win votes to get elected to GOP committee positions.

[erowe1]

There is a difference between Toomey and Specter, especially on spending hopefully.

There might be, but not based on their records in office. Toomey, despite going on the head the Club for Growth, had gotten worse grades from them when he was a Congressman than did Specter as a Senator. Toomey even voted for Bush's prescription drug benefit (which is now the single largest component of our future liabilities, larger even than Social Security), and Specter voted against it.

Toomey, like Rubio, is basing his conservative credentials purely on getting people to talk him up as the alternative to some left-leaning Republican. In both cases I doubt there's any legitimacy to it.

I've seen tons of grassroots conservatives screaming for change too. But unfortunately, it looks all too easy to convince them this or that establishment Republican will bring that change without them having to prove anything or even put themselves on the line by committing to anything specific.

[New York For Paul]

One way to approach candidates is to get them to sign a pledge. Many candidates talk a good game, but a written pledge not to raise taxes or increase spending is little more binding on an elected official.

Unless you are as dumb as George H.W. Bush from 1988 and make the center piece of your campaign, "read my lips, no new taxes" and then he raises taxes. Of course he went on to lose in 1992.

[erowe1]

One way to approach candidates is to get them to sign a pledge. Many candidates talk a good game, but a written pledge not to raise taxes or increase spending is little more binding on an elected official.


That is a good approach. But from the politicians' end there's no point in sticking your neck out and signing a pledge if nobody is demanding it. In the case of Toomey he's getting all the mileage he needs out of his reputation as a conservative without needing to do that. Rubio doesn't seem to be cutting into Crist yet (though, who knows maybe he will). So maybe he would benefit from making a specific pledge. But from what I can tell from his supporters who post here, he doesn't need to either. They are convinced that the race is between Crist and Rubio and that Rubio is better, even though he hasn't committed to anything to make them think that, and even though Crist was rated by the Cato Institute in 2008 as the single best governor of all 50 states on fiscal issues.

[New York For Paul]

That is a good approach. But from the politicians' end there's no point in sticking your neck out and signing a pledge if nobody is demanding it. In the case of Toomey he's getting all the mileage he needs out of his reputation as a conservative without needing to do that. Rubio doesn't seem to be cutting into Crist yet (though, who knows maybe he will). So maybe he would benefit from making a specific pledge. But from what I can tell from his supporters who post here, he doesn't need to either. They are convinced that the race is between Crist and Rubio and that Rubio is better, even though he hasn't committed to anything to make them think that, and even though Crist was rated by the Cato Institute in 2008 as the single best governor of all 50 states on fiscal issues.

There are conservative groups demanding pledges for different issues. We need to do the same. We have to be the ones demanding it. Believe me their are millions of pissed off republican activists and donors who are mad at the GOP for deficit spending, increasing the size of government, trying to raise taxes in California etc.

Those supporters might be stupid in thinking they don't need a pledge. Whoever is the smart candidate in florida will start talking about less government and pledge in writing to do so. That would give the candidate an edge.

Good ole Senator Bob Dole thought he didn't need to sign pledges either and thought so little of his constituents that they wouldn't notice when he would reverse himself. Well he lost too in 1996.'

Many of the better managed gun rights groups submit candidate questionaires and ask for pledges to support one policy over another. Many times the candidates comply because they either support the policy or they are afraid of the political backlash from gun owners. We have to build up our grassroots organization so that politicians want to sign a no new taxes pledge or feel the negative consequences if they don't.

[pacelli]

BREAKING NEWS!


Apparently the Republican Party of Florida is trying to give the boot to about 20 or so conservative / Ron Paul Republicans in the State. Mostly it's those who are outspoken about things like limited government, John McCain, the Federal Reserve, Governor Crist (soon to be "anointed" into the Senate), and the current state of the GOP.


I've been told details, but I don't want to put anything into writing until I see it on paper first (hopefully in the next few days).


But look for this to be a major story very soon.


That's what you get for drinking the GOP kool-aid and then covertly trying to change the flavor.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/othhmklm.gif

[Matt Collins]

That's what you get for drinking the GOP kool-aid and then covertly trying to change the flavor.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/othhmklm.gifI haven't drank ANY GOP kool-aid.:rolleyes:

[RCA]

And the GOP crawls closer to death...

[Volitzer]

Goodbye Republicans hello Constitution Party. :)

[speciallyblend]

Goodbye Republicans hello Constitution Party. :)

nope the cp will need to merge into something new! maybe a Liberty party that unites all the political factions! the cp will never go mainstream as they are now!

they look to religious for mainstream voters! their own convention looked more like sunday school then a political convention to me. me and my wife watched a good portion of it!

ron paul proved that different coalitions could come together. i am hoping the lp/cp/tp and the rpr/rpd and indys gives us a new platform and new party. that we can all join and merge our movements and coalitions!!

Ron Pauls Platform is pretty much the only reason i am even a registered republican!!

if the gop can not fill the void. then a new party must! the lp/cp/tp and other factions are to small alone. they must swallow their party pride and join together asap!!

[Matt Collins]

Anyone else on the ground in FL that can give us some more insight?

[Flash]

Goodbye Republicans hello Constitution Party. :)

Consider moving to a state like New Hampshire rather than joining a fringe third-party. Then stay a Republican & try to infiltrate it like th FSP's are attempting. That's what I'm going to do anyways, it's better than living in a Liberal hell-hole like my state (Massachusetts).

[Matt Collins]

Consider moving to a state like New Hampshire rather than joining a fringe third-party. Then stay a Republican & try to infiltrate it like th FSP's are attempting. That's what I'm going to do anyways, it's better than living in a Liberal hell-hole like my state (Massachusetts).NH isn't much better. MT or WY are our best bets.

[Volitzer]

Disbanded Parties:

Federalists
Whigs
Dixiecrats
? Republicans ?

[Mani]

Anyone else on the ground in FL that can give us some more insight?


I'm surprised I haven't heard any of this. I still have contacts with the old local RP meetup groups and they spring to action and send out a flurry of emails whenever necessary.

I get emails from Dean Santoro he's never been brought it up.

I do bet the Marco Rubio emails but like everyone has stated I don't think he's convinced everyone we are better off yet.

And Christ was a very popular governor and people in FL are pretty stupid when it comes to politics (and other things) so they'll vote for a popular name. I think Marco is battling a lost cause. Plus I'm pretty sure Christ will be able to outspend Rubio EASILY.

[Feenix566]

the gop is still not listening.

Stop asking the GOP to listen. Make them listen.

[speciallyblend]

Stop asking the GOP to listen. Make them listen.

whatever. I AM . the point i keep telling folks is in my county the democratic party is more lp/gop then the gop/lp. the gop in my county is dead except for the neo-cons. the gop in lake county is not worth taking over .when the democrats are full of libertarians and republicans. taking the gop in lake county back is like arguing over a bag of shit!

worry about your county . i will worry about mine. i have spent my last 2 yrs telling the gop what they should do. they still do not listen. We will make them listen by sending their asses out of office and we will continue to do so. that is making them listen. you do not reward neo-con republicans by voting them in!
We made them listen and now we are working with ron paul dems and we are going to encourage folks to keep working with the democratic party in lake county colorado.

what part of the democratic party in lake county is more republican and lp then the gop/lp! do people not understand . politics in every county and state is different. you cannot blanket each county and state as this or that. the fact is all politics are different at the local level!

the gop should die in some counties. if the gop listens. then they might get some votes if not.they deserve to be put down. I will continue to work for liberty no matter the party!

I am not going to vote for a republican just because they run against a democrat, especially when the democrats get the ron paul message! If the gop fails to listen. then it is my job as a voter to find a candidate that will, no matter the party!

now i will mention this as well. the fact is 2 ron paul republicans are going to run and one did very well against the dem he ran against(last election). the fact is the cogop said they would not support the 2 ron paul republicans running. so both will be running as ron paul dems in colorado. the one ron paul republican that did well against the dem. was asked to run in that guys spot in the next election! aka the democrat loved the ron paul republicans message so much. the dem he ran against is stepping down and allowing the ron paul republican to run in his place. NOW THAT IS CHANGE, you can thank the cogop for alienating the ron paul republicans to run as a dem and he has a strong chance to beat the republican and fill the democrats spot(which the dems hold already;). he just ran against in the last election! we have ron paul republicans in the gop and are gonna still try but if the gop fails to listen. then the gop will be a 3rd party sooner then you think!

Reality is Reality! As long as we ron paul republicans keep the gop in check they will keep going down as we continue to build our lp/gop support with in our local democratic party and gop in other counties! when the gop starts listening, we start to support some gop candidates ,until then we will support liberty no matter the party. it is called multi-tasking and not wasting our time! speaking to a brick wall is a waste of time!

[Matt Collins]

And Christ was a very popular governor Not among Republicans...

[acptulsa]

Not among Republicans...

Actually, Christ is very popular among Republicans. He was just never a governor.

Charlie Crist, on the other hand...

[angelatc]

I blogged Nick's message, (http://redstateeclectic.typepad.com/redstate_commentary/2009/09/news-from-the-florida-front.html?cid=6a00d83452719d69e20120a5b7c3bf970c# comment-6a00d83452719d69e20120a5b7c3bf970c) and got an interesting reply in the comments.


gopgal has left you a comment:

Will Pitts and John Stevens were removed for campaigning for Obama. FYI - Pitts has NOT brought thousands to the RPOF. Just another lie from Will.

[Matt Collins]

The RLC recently blogged about this.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Matt Collins]

The situation hasn't improved. But I hear there might be a lawsuit in the works.

[Matt Collins]

The RLC recently blogged about this.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=209167