I Hope You Are Sitting Down for This!

[InterestedParticipant]

Are you starting to comprehend the scope of the lies?
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2007/05/how_immigration_judge_spots_we.php


Walter Burien, who has devoted years to the study of Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports, has shown that in 1999 ALONE, by investing OUR tax monies, OUR government EARNED a total of 8.5 TRILLION Dollars, AFTER expenses. That's 8.5 TRILLION THEY earned in ONE year on OUR MONEY.

Mr. Burien: "Keep in mind, Government only wants you to see one side of the picture; The DEBT. This is so that you will turn your back to the debt in fear or disgust and look the other way. Now, look at how much money OUR Government has to employ, buy off, and CONTROL; the BEST Marketers, Psychologists, Strategists, Takeover Specialists, Entertainment Propagandists, etc. etc. etc. Could it be that OUR very own Government over the last several decades has been promoting to those fortune 500 companies, MANY of which our Government OWNS, through Bond - Loan investment / stock ownership [EXAMPLES: 82% stock ownership of Microsoft Corporation, Disney 61%, AOL - Time Warner 58%, EXXON 72%] that they should manufacture abroad, so that Government would realize greater returns on their investments of OUR money, at the direct expense of WE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE in terms of JOBS and OUR OWN wealth retention, thus ACCOMPLISHING the laying of the groundwork for "balancing" world wealth, which is the primary foundation block of nothing other than the NEW WORLD ORDER?

OUR Government wouldn't do that for a few extra trillions of NON-TAX-INCOME dollars right? Well, sorry to have to break it to you but you're WRONG. In the 60's, most government investment funds were restricted to a cap of 5% to a maximum of 10% invested outside of the USA. By 2000, that restriction has been increased in many a case to over 45% and in some cases no restriction at all per percent of International investments held.




Walter Burien again:

"You now know the primary reason why Gorbechev went democratic, more money = more control. We showed Gorbachev the blueprint for true communism. In Russia's past, the state openly owned everything. In the USA the state truly owns everything, but through walls of well-masked corporate veils created over the decades. The US Government now has more control over more wealth amassed from the people then old Russia ever thought was possible or ever dreamed about."

For the Hegelian ochestrators of our "free" America and world, the function of a Parliament or a Congress is purely psychological; merely to "allow" individuals to feel that their opinions have some value, and to allow government to take advantage of whatever wisdom the 'peasant' may accidentally demonstrate. As their patron saint Hegel put it: "By virtue of this participation, subjective liberty and conceit, with their general opinion, (individuals) can show themselves palpably efficacious and enjoy the satisfaction of feeling themselves to count for something." War, the organized conflict of nations for Hegelians, is merely "the visible outcome of the clash between ideas". Following the outbreak of war in 1939, Social Creditor C.H. Douglas said, "The international money marketeers care no more for the immolation of the peoples of a continent that for the death of a sparrow"; and "Unfortunately the world is in the grasp of theorists to whom misery and death of millions is a grain of sand beside the working out of their designs".

[FSP-Rebel]

I barely believe this.

[Terces]

I've seen this video a few months ago; would really be interested in some commentary on the subject.

[satchelmcqueen]

bump

[InterestedParticipant]

I've seen this video a few months ago; would really be interested in some commentary on the subject.
Start with this short video interview.... this will give you some insight


YouTube - DeadLine Live - Walter Burien (CAFR) - Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lN_bb-XjwQ)

YouTube - DeadLine Live - Walter Burien (CAFR) - Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFiB708zSiI)


Composite Wealth of Gov't

2/3 of local, state and federal government income is non-taxable direct income off of investments made with public capital.

When one of those investments goes bust, the local, state or federal government cites a budgetary shortfall and collects their money, regardless of whether or not they have need of it for operating said budget.

Taxes are, therefore, merely a revenue-generating tool for investment. The returns off of these investment funds, mini-empires, are out of public reach.

[ramallamamama]

Thanks IP.

I've been hip to Burien's research for awhile.

Here's a link to his website.

http://cafr1.com/

[Zippyjuan]

How does he figure that the US government owns 82% of Microsoft, for example?

Bill Gates, Microsoft's co-founder and chairman, and Chief Executive Steve Ballmer are the company's two
largest shareholders, with 8.2 percent and 4.6 percent respectively, according to data from FactSet Research
Systems Inc.
Microsoft's largest institutional investor is Barclays Global Investors NA, which holds 3.8 percent of
shares. As an example, it would take Barclays and the next 15 largest institutional investors to total 25
percent of Microsoft's outstanding shares.
www.physorg.com/pdf163946461.pdf

In 1999, Microsoft had no bonds issued or loans so stocks would be the only way to have a share in the company. Microsoft issued the first bonds in the history of the company only this year http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/microsoft/2009208820_microsoftdebt12.html

(Link in original post takes me to an article on a judge?)

[InterestedParticipant]

How does he figure that the US government owns 82% of Microsoft, for example?

www.physorg.com/pdf163946461.pdf

In 1999, Microsoft had no bonds issued or loans so stocks would be the only way to have a share in the company. Microsoft issued the first bonds in the history of the company only this year http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/microsoft/2009208820_microsoftdebt12.html

(Link in original post takes me to an article on a judge?)
That's an excellent question.

From my research of Burien's work so far, I would suggest that he is including pension fund & treasury fund direct equity investments in his calculations.

But write him an email on this, he's pretty responsive. It would be good to get clarification.

[Zippyjuan]

Pension funds holding shares is not exactly the same thing as government ownership or control. But even if you count them there is no way you can get to 82% ownership of Microsoft. That would be almost every share Gates and Balmer don't have. Pension funds do not go to paying for government programs either- they go to healthcare and retirement funds for workers- just as companies are not supposed to be able to extract money from their pension funds as well. Social Security and Medicare surplus funds are borrowed to pay for government programs though. He seems to be counting every level of government together too- city, county, state, and Federal. He makes it sound like the government itself is raking in and keeping all that money but they are not.

[sevin]

Are you starting to comprehend the scope of the lies?
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2007/05/how_immigration_judge_spots_we.php

That link doesn't seem to go to the article you quote.

[InterestedParticipant]

That link doesn't seem to go to the article you quote.
Try.....
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2007/05/how_immigration_judge_spots_we.php#comment-2110783

The original statements come directly from Walter's site, approximately 2/3's-down the page...
http://cafr1.com/


After you look at a state CAFR review, then look at your many city, county, school district, State University CAFR. Government Enterprise operation such as Toll ways, Bridges, Ports, water, sewer, power, recycling, CAFRs should then be looked at.

Pensions, self-funding debt financial authorities, self insurance authorities CAFRs should be looked at also. As of 2005 there are over 84,000 "individual" Annual Financial Reports (the CAFR) produced by just our local government operations. Each with their own investments and cash accounts..

The composite totals of investment assets held internationally by USA government is staggering. Between local and Federal government, the total of liquid investment assets held Internationally is a conservative sixty (60) Trillion dollars.

Download the 1997: Federal Consolidated Financial Statement: CLICK HERE (http://cafr1.com/STATES/FEDERAL%20-%20FINANCIAL%20STATEMENT/FEDERAL%201997.pdf) and then the Federal 1998 CFS (http://cafr1.com/STATES/FEDERAL%20-%20FINANCIAL%20STATEMENT/FEDERAL%201998.pdf)

(The 1999 report (http://cafr1.com/STATES/FEDERAL%20-%20FINANCIAL%20STATEMENT/FEDERAL%201999.pdf)) shows the populace of this country had gross income of 8.2 trillion dollars.

The public's income after deducting for taxation: Local Gov (1.6 trillion dollars - "Local Government's CAFR Data") Federal Gov (1.8 trillion dollars)

This left the population with: 4.8 trillion dollars net after taxation.

Local and Federal Government's "GROSS" income brought in 2X the money then the entire population of the USA did net after taxation!
3.4 TAX + 5.1 NONTAX = 8.5 Trillion Dollars
ONLY 1/3rd OF GOVERNMENT'S GROSS INCOME WAS TAX INCOME.

[InterestedParticipant]

Here is my primary takeaway from Walter (the big picture)...

Taxes are, therefore, merely a revenue-generating tool for investment.

The returns off of these investment funds, mini-empires, are out of public reach.

[ourlongroad]

I found these two link to NYC & CA investments, showing equity ownership in corporations.

New York State Retirement

2006 - NYSR-CAFR (http://cafr1.com/STATES/NEWYORK/RETIREMENT/NYRINV2006.PDF)

See page 1-66 for list of Domestic & International equities (stocks) owned => approx $75B

California State Retirement
2006 - CALPERS - CAFR (http://cafr1.com/STATES/CALIFORNIA%20DIRECTORY/CALPERS/CALPERS_CAFR2006.pdf)

See pages 82 thru 84
50B equity share trades creating over $65M in fees & commissions with brokers


Reviewing some of Walter's work, I heard him say that not all pension funds are profit sharing, so the pension fund can keep any profits over and above the commitments it has to its the pension fund employees. If that is true, then the pension funds are just one big investment machine, but I wonder who is getting the profits on these funds... where is that going?

[InterestedParticipant]

From Walter's video.....sounds like a......what's that word........'conspiracy'...


"Now, the department that mailed out the report the Comprehensive Annual Financial Report was from the Department of Treasury. I called the mailroom, and the mailroom usually doesn't get a call from the public, so they were very cooperative. I wanted to find out who the report was sent to. I thought it was a short list. They said, "I'm sorry, sir. The list is too long - we can't read it to you on the phone." So I start qualifying. I found out it was sent to every editor of every paper on the East coast. It was sent to the deans of all the colleges. It was sent to the CEO and every one of the directors from ABC, CBS, and NBC. "

[InterestedParticipant]

Albeit this is a few years old, check out your state's surplus (you can click on each state within the table of results to get a page with a full explanation):
http://cafrman.com/EconomicImpactAnalysis.htm#ResultsOfReviews


The above chart indicates that the total surpluses for these States is $612 billion.

The above States represent 93.5% of the U.S.A. population. Now if this amount is extrapolated to the total U.S.A. population, the total State-level potential surpluses are $612 billion. That is the amount of excess taxpayers money that the States have sitting at the State-level government in excess of their needs to operate the government. This does not include the school districts, cities and/or counties in these States.

Economic Impact Analysis if State-Level Potential Surpluses were returned to the people:

There are two segments to our economy, the private sector (individuals/businesses) and the public sector (governments). Individual and business/company economics are completely different from government economics. But most people apply their individual or a business/company economics to governments. For example, it sounds OK for a government to have an emergency fund, a rainy day fund, to hold money for future expansion, paying off debt, etc. Isn't that OK? NO!

As the above table demonstrates that when the surpluses are returned to the people (private sector of our economy) some magic takes place. It is elementary economics.

People fail to realize that 12.2 million jobs would be created increasing the standard of living for all. Unemployment would cease to exist. Wage and technology productivity increases would be needed to make up for the shortage in the job market.

Each report contains an economic impact analysis to demonstrate the tremendous benefits to the taxpayer when the surpluses are returned to the people.

There are 83,000 CAFRs prepared every year. Some are duplicates of data in other CAFRs. Just think of the surpluses that exist with all the school districts, cities, counties, States, and Other CAFRs. If these surpluses were returned to the people, there would be no need to worry about Social Security again.

[ramallamamama]

Thanks for the pm reply, IP. I can't respond to it directly due to browser issues.

[InterestedParticipant]

For Joe Six-Pack
http://cafr1.com/JoeSixPack.html


I have had a few reports from the "Joe Six-Pack" readers that they are to busy to read "reports" or complex statements from me as to how government is in plain language "screwing them". They want quick sound bites high-lighted that they can understand and whereby they can skip over everything else. I am told by them they are to busy working twelve hour shifts to pay the bills and complex or long financial disclosure that requires their time and effort to look is beyond their attention span and their will to participate in. So let me give it a try to be clear and simple, with a history outline of individual sound-bites listed in order of importance whereby it brings the issues into focus for the Joe six-pack readers from across the land.

1. Since about the end of the 1800's the United States of America became the wealthiest country on the planet in respect to opening access to natural resources and population productivity. From 1890 to 1929, the people were gaining unprecedented individual wealth and clear ownership of property. This was a first time event on the planet whereby the masses were getting the Lion's share of ownership and retaining almost 100% of their productivity. This did not sit well with the feudal lord mentality and the nobility rights of entitlement mentality. But then, opportunity and centuries of experience came to play for these individuals to change this first time event for the wealth of the nation to be taken from the people and put into their hands and control again through careful plays of orchestrated confusion and inevitable restructuring under their leadership and edict. So, to get the ball rolling along, wars are the best tool to keep the public at bay as you make changes and obtain mass wealth conversion which otherwise you would not be able to have pulled it off. I will not mention names here of which most know who the players were already, only the events used to accomplish the take-over of the wealth from the "individual" into the hands of a few feudal lords of self proclaimed nobility will be mentioned. All steps necessary for the take-over were played out during orchestrated wars.

2. On December 23, 1913, in walks the creation of the Federal Reserve and in 1913, the states ratified the 16th Amendment, (IRS authorization) making taxes on capital gains, dividends, interest, rents, and the like open for the taking. Then WW1 (1914-1919), with massive wealth generated and that wealth changing hands accomplished. Additionally, now the stage was set to start stripping the American people with that new IRS authorization for implemented collection.

3. Well, on the International front the wealth created from WW1 was great but the American people's wealth had increased also and property ownership was unaffected. So, phase two; Strip the wealth from the American People by the old tactic of bait (with greed) and switch (with got ya). October 29, 1929 in walks the Market crash and the great depression. Here the players were able to strip the wealth by conversion from the American people for pennies on the dollar and set into motion the plan to strip them of forward productivity value and property ownership by expansion of IRS collection on the Federal side and assignment of nobility rights of entitlement to the States for their share of the take, through directives to start increasing collection of taxation as local entities. The public from the 1929 collapse was flung into dependency by design and one program and tax after another was implemented to sure-up control of productivity and ownership into the hands of others.

4. Worked well once, so let's do it again, September 1st 1939 WW2 starts and then ends September 2nd 1945, massive wealth changes hands again, taxation grips tighter grabbing a bigger chunk of the productivity value, and done so with little objection from the American People. (The American public was receiving appeasement stipends from those that had consolidated the wealth under their control). The Social Security Act passed on August 14, 1935. Taxes for this were collected for the first time in January 1937. Regular ongoing monthly benefits started in January 1940.

5. Now in 1945 it gets very interesting with a change of strategy. Government had grown into a conglomerate for revenue (wealth) collection and creation but the American public was watching closely and resistant to further increases of wealth taken and control given to government through taxation or regulation. The American public had maintained and were given the illusion they, the American public were in control. The only thing the American public was in control of by this point was how well or resistant they were in digesting the sound-bites and propaganda that was fed them by those who now had consolidated massive control of the newly obtained wealth by war and restructuring of government for revenue collection. The players that had accomplished this realize to maintain their new wealth and ability for control, certain aspects of wealth generation and control needed to be fine-tuned, enforced, and new relevant strategies created. More money taken from and more control of the American people was now honed and fine-tuned into a creative art by the top players. Their was so much money already taken and available, the top players had many eager foot soldiers willing to jump at the bit to play their part for a small piece of the take. Many Government sounding private advisory associations or political parties were created to guide and lead government into the new world order of wealth and absolute control for the 21st century. As it was in the past, further consolidation of the wealth and control of the people would be the focus for the future.

6. In 1945, primarily at the direction of the US Government, the United Nations was founded in 1945 as a force for International control by regulatory and group control to oversee unified control over smaller independent players that could jeopardize the control of the big players. Additionally, it created a body that if necessary could be utilized by any of the big players to quell dissent in the event of revolt from the people and the inability of that government to marginalize or eliminate that dissent.

7. In 1946, Government Financial Officers Association (GFOA) was created to guide government from a "pay as you go" structure into a Corporate clearing house for revenue collection and wealth creation where this could be done outside of the view of the American public by only showing the public the pay as you go accounting (tax income) seen in budget reports while at the same time holding back from view the showing of the true wealth being created through total gross income and investment return generated out of view by the American public, but as was necessary on the inside to be accounted for through the government accounting as seen in the Annual Financial Report known as the CAFR (Comprehensive Annual Financial Report). With the CAFR accounting now in place for governments showing total gross income and net worth to the inside players but invisible to the American public by exclusion, the structure for the final take-over of the wealth by government was in place. To be able to pull this off, the players required the full cooperation of the syndicated media, organized education, and the political parties to "tow the line" in silence as the plan was implemented. The big carrot dangled to get the silence was "just look at how much money and investment wealth will be available for us all if you cooperate". These groups at the top were included in with disclosure of the Annual Financial Report transition of government over the last sixty-five years, the American people were not. If the American people had been included, it would have burst the bubble of the illusion that they were in control and would have made visible the fact that government was taking over all of the wealth from the American public by investment, unseen income growth, and easily orchestrated market market manipulations from that wealth held and ever growing and thus the American People would have revolted upon comprehending what their government had developed into and what direction it was going. Thus the silence is golden rule was strictly enforced between the inside players per mention of government's CAFR.

8. From 1946 until 2000, my was life grand for the inside players. Come the year 2000, US Government's (Federal and Local) gross income had blossomed to over 8.5 trillion dollars a year with only 1/3rd of that being tax income. This was greater than the entire gross income of the population which was 8.2 trillion in 1999. US Government had diversified its investments to be both domestic and International investments whereby up on the dollar and interest rates or down on the the dollar and interest rates it really didn't matter to government as long as those moves enhanced their over-all short-term or long-term profits from investments held. The Joe six-packs from the American public were appeased with their SUV's, the sport channel, and ten-thousand sound-bites a day thrown out to entertain them with masterfully played inherent distraction value so that business as usual would maintain and continue unabated. It was known by the inside players that the majority of the American Public was clueless and they could be pulled around by a string looped through their nose whereby any play of the players could be implemented and then backed up by all factions of the empirical corporate government take-over syndicate and their media cooperatives that now had ultimate control.

9. Come 2001, a slight problem started to occur. The American public was becoming restless and resentful to the encroachments and ever growing greed of the government players. Now most of the American population were contained through their conditioning for control fed them through masterfully presented sound-bites rammed down their throats each day from the political parties, syndicated media, and the "in the pocket associations" visible to the public. The problem was coming from those independent thinkers that got a clue and started looking. On June 8th of 1998, I started with national disclosure of the CAFR and the structure behind it. I did about 130 radio programs with independent show hosts not under the thumb of the syndicated media over the next three months. A small percentage of the American people heard the message and for the first time in their lives side-stepped the illusion of implied control of this country in their hands and for the first time started to look at who had taken over and owned the wealth as could be postulated by viewing of government's true accounting document, the CAFR.

As Government's composite ownership was tallied, the clear and indisputable reality of the wealth and degree of gross income was seen. This point was rather hard for digestion to most being that it tore at the core of their belief structure and their well designed indoctrination. But ever so slowly as the months progressed many were "getting it". Keep in mind the take-over by government was complete come 2001 and they surely knew that if the general population managed to side-step the controlled sound-bites and grasped that the American public in reality had zero control as to what had taken place over the last 65 years while the take-over was implemented, all would not be well in money and control land.

The natives could even revolt from the visceral reaction of that new found knowledge of what their government had developed into. Well, time for PLAN B. Time to move the time-tables up for the new world order final control. No more games here. Iron fist action and carefully staged events and regulation were now required, and required to be implemented quickly to keep the masses under thumb and control. The readers here all know what occurred. They were glued to their TV set as each well planed sound-bite unfolded.

I will note that I have heard many complaints from people saying "Why does the syndicated media, politicians, or organized education not do their jobs addressing these issues?" Well, they do an EXCELLENT job! They do exactly what they are paid to do. Look at the money and control involved and they will continue to do the same as long as the control and ownership of the wealth productivity stays as now designed.

Since 2001, events have been staged to transfer wealth in unprecedented proportions. Millions have been killed by intent for wealth transfer. Regulations have been implemented to lock down the entire American population at the whim of the players. The carefully designed controlled sound-bites continue, the illusion is reinforced, and the beat for the inside players goes on virtually without a hitch or of no consequence. The Joe six-pack's are given sound-bites of new TV shows such as cops and jail to be conditioned into "shut up and do as you are told" or countless court room shows of "Judge XXXX" for sound-bite conditioning of "this is how it will be done!"

So Joe six-pack, is that clear enough for you in plain language to know how you have been screwed? You are not going to be able to do anything about it any way. You do not have the wealth or the control to do anything about it anyway. That has been taken from you as shown above by the screwee who created the structure and the accounting you are to busy to learn and comprehend in the first place. But, don't worry, there are a few of us still left that can and will fight this beast in your behalf. We may or may not succeed. But in any event we are trying to the best of our abilities to teach the American public that corrective action is necessary. If we are successful by some odd miracle, then the American public will become the "direct beneficiary" of the standing wealth and the yoke of taxation will be eliminated for all time to come. Productivity earned and ownership held will revert back into the "individual" American's hands.

[ramallamamama]

Bump.

Damn Walt, why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?

[catdd]

The United States is nothing more than a greedy and incredibly corrupt corporation.

YouTube - UNITED STATES is a Corporation - There are Two Constitutions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVsMUpPgdT0)

[ScoutsHonor]

The United States is nothing more than a greedy and incredibly corrupt corporation.




YouTube - UNITED STATES is a Corporation - There are Two Constitutions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVsMUpPgdT0)
They, by which I mean all the busy scribes and lawyers, can indulge in all the legalese they wish to and yet there will still remain, in reality, an actual nation, populated with 300+ million living, breathing citizens, who simply seek to live their lives in freedom, as they have for the last approximately 200-odd years.

These grotesque legal inventions cannot change that, cannot transform with legal *mumbo jumbo* real living beings into a "Corporation", cannot persuade any sane persons that this makes any sense or should be taken seriously. These pseudo-legal arguments are not founded on either morality, reality or sanity, and should be given by we the citizens the attention they deserve=none, nada, ZERO.

In a free country, LAWS cannot suddenly emerge which supercede the morality the country was founded on, by which I mean the Constitution.

[IPSecure]

For Joe Six-Pack
http://cafr1.com/JoeSixPack.html (http://cafr1.com/JoeSixPack.html)

Makes one wonder just how much wealth has been transferred (stolen) since 1913.

Anyone care to guess?

[catdd]

"In a free country, LAWS cannot suddenly emerge which supercede the morality the country was founded on, by which I mean the Constitution."

I wonder how many people actually know that the wording of the constitution was changed to better suit the needs of the corporate elites?

[ScoutsHonor]

I wonder how many people actually know that the wording of the constitution was changed to better suit the needs of the corporate elites?
That's very interesting. Care to clarify?

[CCTelander]

How does he figure that the US government owns 82% of Microsoft, for example?

www.physorg.com/pdf163946461.pdf

In 1999, Microsoft had no bonds issued or loans so stocks would be the only way to have a share in the company. Microsoft issued the first bonds in the history of the company only this year http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/microsoft/2009208820_microsoftdebt12.html

(Link in original post takes me to an article on a judge?)

I'm a little familiar with Burien's info. From what I gather, he doesn't claim that the US Government owns 82% of MS, but that "COMPOSITE government" (all levels of government local, state and federal) does.

Hope this helps.

[catdd]

I wonder how many people actually know that the wording of the constitution was changed to better suit the needs of the corporate elites?
That's very interesting. Care to clarify?


Sure. The Act of 1871 changed the wording from "for to "of" and capitalized all the letters in the title. Before 1871 it was called the Constitution for the united States of America, a Republic within which our rights are protected by a service-oriented government.
Afterwards it became CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, a profit-oriented corporation.

Here's a little newspaper clipping I just dug up that better explains it...http://proliberty.com/observer/20010402.htm

[ScoutsHonor]

Sure. The Act of 1871 changed the wording from "for to "of" and capitalized all the letters in the title. Before 1871 it was called the Constitution for the united States of America, a Republic within which our rights are protected by a service-oriented government.
Afterwards it became CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, a profit-oriented corporation.

Here's a little newspaper clipping I just dug up that better explains it...[/URL][url]http://proliberty.com/observer/20010402.htm (http://proliberty.com/observer/20010402.htm)

This topic properly belongs on a separate thread so I'll just make this comment:

There's no legal foundation for the claim that there are "two Constitutions." On the face of it the claim is ridiculous, because any "second" constitution would become immediately illegal and fraudulent: because there is only one legal Constitution, which is the original founding charter for this country. This is a foundational document, which means it cannot be replaced.

If you want to pursue this further, please start a separate thread as we are interrupting the OP's thread. :( Thanks. :)

[catdd]

This topic properly belongs on a separate thread so I'll just make this comment:


If you want to pursue this further, please start a separate thread as we are interrupting the OP's thread. :( Thanks. :)

That's just your opinion.
And besides, you asked me to clarify. So what you did was bait me into clarifying just so you could say it was off topic.
Pretty sneaky.

[ScoutsHonor]

That's just your opinion.
And besides, you asked me to clarify. So what you did was bait me into clarifying just so you could say it was off topic.

I can back up my opinion, given a reasonable hearing. Read my message - I invited you to start a new thread. Why would I want to bait you?

However, at this point I have absolutely no desire to talk to you. How's that for sneaky......:rolleyes: Sheesh!

[catdd]

I can back up my opinion, given a reasonable hearing. Read my message - I invited you to start a new thread. Why would I want to bait you?

However, at this point I have absolutely no desire to talk to you. How's that for sneaky......:rolleyes: Sheesh!

blah blah blah

[catdd]

Are you starting to comprehend the scope of the lies?
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2007/05/how_immigration_judge_spots_we.php



Ok, If I went off topic in your thread I apologize. But considering the subject matter, I felt that showing exactly when and how the United States became the corrupt corporation it is today had a direct bearing.