Why fight?

[Elwar]

Ok, I was talking to my wife last night about getting active in the Republican or Libertarian Party now that we're settled into our new location. She asked me the question of...why fight it? Where has it gotten us? I told her that I didn't want to bring a kid into this world, that the only reason I could do it is if I could do something to make it better. She asked, what difference could I make...even devoting my whole life to bettering the country won't change the direction it's going, meanwhile giving up my life and my family's life for what? So that all of these people who have supported big government my whole life can have a better future?

I've been involved in politics for over a decade, as my county's LP president, running for Congress, going to the LP national convention, going to the state convention to support Ron Paul...for what? Fighting for that glorious 1-2% of the vote.

I always thought that Ron Paul was the last chance. During all of the Libertarian presidential runs I always figured...if only the LP candidate could be in the debates and get his message to the people...then he'd win in a landslide. Well, Ron Paul was able to get his message out during the debates and he was ridiculed, chastized and literally laughed at. And the voting Americans proved their unworthiness by voting against liberty. They proved that they do not want freedom as they keep talking about "Land of the Free". Why fight for these people? Why not say screw it...and watch out for number one?

I know the answer will come up..."well if everyone stopped fighting then we'd be a lot worse off". Well, if everyone had been fighting, we'd be a lot better off too, but they aren't...so why should I? Why should I fight to save people who don't want to be saved?

Of course...this is mainly just a rant...but my motivation level is dwindling.

Who is John Galt?

[paulitics]

We are making a huge difference. Our views are getting out into the mainstream. If we change the hearts and minds of people, that is much more important than changing a few votes in one election.

Don't forget, for evil to triumph, all it takes is for good men to do nothing.

[Kraig]

Well, I think you should fight it, but I don't think politics is effective at all to do that. There is nothing like when you help an individual change their mind through education, to me that is far more tangible than anything that has ever been accomplished through politics, and in the long run I think it will be more effective towards changing the big picture.

Do a good enough job convincing someone and they will be talking to their friends and family about it, raising their kids based on it, etc. While if you win an election, which is rare for us anyways, all you are doing id tapping into the power wave of a popular vote that is accomplished more by marketing that actually changing people's minds, which only leaves all the people who disagree with you pissed off with your viewpoint.

[acptulsa]

While if you win an election, which is rare for us anyways, all you are doing id tapping into the power wave of a popular vote that is accomplished more by marketing that actually changing people's minds...

Is it?

And is there a place you can find more receptive potential students than at your county convention?

I don't know the answers to that. But I do know that, without a scrap of help from any media source but the 'net, we are indeed changing minds.

Why do so many people snatch defeat from the jaws of victory? Because it's always darkest before the dawn, that's why.

[TonySutton]

I wonder if Martha Washington said that to George?

[RevolutionSD]

Ok, I was talking to my wife last night about getting active in the Republican or Libertarian Party now that we're settled into our new location. She asked me the question of...why fight it? Where has it gotten us? I told her that I didn't want to bring a kid into this world, that the only reason I could do it is if I could do something to make it better. She asked, what difference could I make...even devoting my whole life to bettering the country won't change the direction it's going, meanwhile giving up my life and my family's life for what? So that all of these people who have supported big government my whole life can have a better future?

I've been involved in politics for over a decade, as my county's LP president, running for Congress, going to the LP national convention, going to the state convention to support Ron Paul...for what? Fighting for that glorious 1-2% of the vote.

I always thought that Ron Paul was the last chance. During all of the Libertarian presidential runs I always figured...if only the LP candidate could be in the debates and get his message to the people...then he'd win in a landslide. Well, Ron Paul was able to get his message out during the debates and he was ridiculed, chastized and literally laughed at. And the voting Americans proved their unworthiness by voting against liberty. They proved that they do not want freedom as they keep talking about "Land of the Free". Why fight for these people? Why not say screw it...and watch out for number one?

I know the answer will come up..."well if everyone stopped fighting then we'd be a lot worse off". Well, if everyone had been fighting, we'd be a lot better off too, but they aren't...so why should I? Why should I fight to save people who don't want to be saved?

Of course...this is mainly just a rant...but my motivation level is dwindling.

Who is John Galt?

You and your wife have some good points.

Working within the system as a libertarian has brought us to the largest, most oppressive government in the history of this country.

Just think of when the LP got started to now. Government has continued to expand in those 40 years, despite countless Libertarian politicians running for office.

We can jump up and down and stomp our feet all we want, but it is impossible to turn an inherently bad organization like government into a force for good.

I gave up on politics after the RP campaign. I found www.freedomainradio.com and realized that we, as small government libertarians, are fighting the wrong battle. The only way we can achieve freedom is to completely get rid of the very idea of the need for government.

The best thing you and your wife can do is create a great relationship with each other and your friends and family, live happily, and keep your kids out of government school. Unschooling seems like a good option to avoid indoctrination. Get corrupt people out of your lives and stop thinking you have to change the world.
I think leading by example is the first step to a better world. Of course I'd love to see things move in a more libertarian direction, but the political game is rigged, and the government is not an organization that we will ever be successful in shrinking or making benevolent.

[Mani]

I spoke to Ron Paul about something similar to this, and I remember he tempered my expectations.

The jist of what he said was these kinds of changes take a long time, they are not overnight.

I think that's why we have the C4L organizations opening up in colleges ALL OVER the U.S. That's HUGE.

We made a big change, but it's just not as monumental as you want it to be.

Ron Paul lead the charge to this sweeping revolution of liberty. We opened A LOT of eyes, more than ever before. The MSM and the rest of the GOP did their job to make him a fringe candidate. That's what they do. But a lot of people got his message, and the message DID GET OUT.

Ron Paul's audit the fed bill got 240+ cosponsors. THAT'S AMAZING! And it happened with US calling our congressmen and women and demanding it. Without RP in the debates and campaigning this wouldn't be happening.

We have the C4L showing up in schools and getting the young people involved and motivated. We talk to our kids about liberty and freedom. We are building the next generation of freedom fighters. And those graduating college students are going to be the next political leaders.

None of that happens with out all the effort you've been putting in, everything you've done has lead to this moment, to this new movement of liberty. Liberty isn't attained very easy, it takes a long time. We just have to be encouraged as we see things moving in the right direction.

The signs of our progress are there, we've accomplished a lot, don't forget that, but we do have a long way to go. So keep it up!

[LibertyEagle]

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

[Romulus]

Apathy is a green light to Tyranny!

[Jags~Beach]

Has our government gotten too big for the people to control now that the mainstream media is pushing their liberal propaganda?

[Kraig]

Has our government gotten too big for the people to control now that the mainstream media is pushing their liberal propaganda?

Yes, without something drastic or violent happening.

[Stary Hickory]

Sometimes it takes 20 years for a movement to break out and hit mainstream. Mises and Rothbard both fought with every ounce of intellect they had, and when they died they saw nothing worth noting.(Rothbard saw the collapse of Communist/Socialist Russia).

So Rothbard is dead and so is Mises, but many here have read what they have written, and their ideas and thoughts live on. It takes awhile sometimes, but the truth will always conquer a lie as long as there are those willing to stand up and speak the truth.

Don't exhaust yourself, but never give up. Things will change, even though Western Civilization has been engulfed by immorality and collectivism in the last century, the cracks are showing in a myriad of countries. We have a tradition of phenomenal success with individual liberty and protected rights, whereas with socialism we have nothing short of a dying society.

[tremendoustie]

Ok, I was talking to my wife last night about getting active in the Republican or Libertarian Party now that we're settled into our new location. She asked me the question of...why fight it? Where has it gotten us? I told her that I didn't want to bring a kid into this world, that the only reason I could do it is if I could do something to make it better. She asked, what difference could I make...even devoting my whole life to bettering the country won't change the direction it's going, meanwhile giving up my life and my family's life for what? So that all of these people who have supported big government my whole life can have a better future?

I've been involved in politics for over a decade, as my county's LP president, running for Congress, going to the LP national convention, going to the state convention to support Ron Paul...for what? Fighting for that glorious 1-2% of the vote.

I always thought that Ron Paul was the last chance. During all of the Libertarian presidential runs I always figured...if only the LP candidate could be in the debates and get his message to the people...then he'd win in a landslide. Well, Ron Paul was able to get his message out during the debates and he was ridiculed, chastized and literally laughed at. And the voting Americans proved their unworthiness by voting against liberty. They proved that they do not want freedom as they keep talking about "Land of the Free". Why fight for these people? Why not say screw it...and watch out for number one?

I know the answer will come up..."well if everyone stopped fighting then we'd be a lot worse off". Well, if everyone had been fighting, we'd be a lot better off too, but they aren't...so why should I? Why should I fight to save people who don't want to be saved?

Of course...this is mainly just a rant...but my motivation level is dwindling.

Who is John Galt?

I think balance is in order. Fighting is worthy, but family time is important as well -- even more so. Isn't some of both an option?

[acptulsa]

I think balance is in order. Fighting is worthy, but family time is important as well -- even more so. Isn't some of both an option?

A soldier who undermines his own foundations cannot stand and fight. As your ally, I respectfully request that you take good care of you and yours. We don't want you distracted by them when push comes to shove.

[newbitech]

Ok, I was talking to my wife last night about getting active in the Republican or Libertarian Party now that we're settled into our new location. She asked me the question of...why fight it? Where has it gotten us? I told her that I didn't want to bring a kid into this world, that the only reason I could do it is if I could do something to make it better. She asked, what difference could I make...even devoting my whole life to bettering the country won't change the direction it's going, meanwhile giving up my life and my family's life for what? So that all of these people who have supported big government my whole life can have a better future?

I've been involved in politics for over a decade, as my county's LP president, running for Congress, going to the LP national convention, going to the state convention to support Ron Paul...for what? Fighting for that glorious 1-2% of the vote.

I always thought that Ron Paul was the last chance. During all of the Libertarian presidential runs I always figured...if only the LP candidate could be in the debates and get his message to the people...then he'd win in a landslide. Well, Ron Paul was able to get his message out during the debates and he was ridiculed, chastized and literally laughed at. And the voting Americans proved their unworthiness by voting against liberty. They proved that they do not want freedom as they keep talking about "Land of the Free". Why fight for these people? Why not say screw it...and watch out for number one?

I know the answer will come up..."well if everyone stopped fighting then we'd be a lot worse off". Well, if everyone had been fighting, we'd be a lot better off too, but they aren't...so why should I? Why should I fight to save people who don't want to be saved?

Of course...this is mainly just a rant...but my motivation level is dwindling.

Who is John Galt?

I have found that my motivation comes in waves. I go through periods of saying "screw it" it isn't worth it. I also go through periods of thinking that victory is right around the corner.

I think the important thing here is that you do have a place to go (these forums) and a group of people to associate with that understand what you are going through. This is like a long march across the desert. We have to pick each other up.

You fight for the guy standing next to you because you know when the time comes he will fight for you. I can understand what you are saying about having children and making the world a better place.

A good friend of mine and his wife are having the exact same type of discussion, although they are not a deeply embedded in the political side of life as you appear to be. So I think regardless of your level of commitment to the movement and political change, your question and discussion is very important to the future of your family.

I would encourage you to take a step back if you need to. Prepare yourself for the possibility of raising children in tough times. Think of all of the other children being raised by people who see life in similar ways as you do. Especially those children of politically active freedom lovers here. Your children WILL have great friends who share their ideals. Your children will be in a generation that is going to be raised with a greater awareness of Life, Liberty, and Happiness.

And those children will need all the support they can get from the parents and adults of this movement. You have been on the front lines for a while, maybe its time for some R-n-R for you, your wife, and future family. The movement is advancing because of folks like you!

[kahless]

I have come to the same conclusion or confusion as the first few posts. You get to a point where it is like why bother since the efforts are futile and hopeless nationally. If that is the case then perhaps the efforts would be more effective and successful for regional successionist movements in order to enjoy freedom in our lifetime.

[Krugerrand]

Part of the problem we face is a practical one of getting like-minded people in office.

*Generally speaking* where government is involved in people lives, most here think it should happen as local a level as possible. State government is better than Federal government. County is better than State. None is best when available.

Unfortunately, the progression of a politician is from local to state to federal. The successful hands-on and get things done local politician is less likely to enter Washington with a hands-off mindset. A hands-off mindset is less likely to have enough success locally to progress nationally.

This makes the Libertarian politician almost impossible. The person that wants to follow that path is better off running as an independent. That, of course, also has its extra challenges.

I think the anti-Bush mentality could have had an opportunity to run as a liberty-minded Democrat. I've brought up before appealing to unions as anti-NAFTA, anti-illegal immigration, anti-WTO as a key to this process.

I think Ron Paul is on the right track for how to make it happen - and the Libertarian Party isn't it. That said, the GOP needs to push the new-cons out of power. There is support to be found in the Pat Buchanan wing of the party to make this happen. Then, the GOP needs to police itself better and not act like Democrats when they do get elected.

[ClayTrainor]

I've had similar thoughts lately as well, Elwar.

As a Canadian, it doesn't do me much good to profess my respect for the US constitution, and getting into politics out here is just downright ugly. We are a very socialist nation, and many of us want more socialism. I don't think i could get into politics in Canada, without having some sort of stroke due to the stress of constantly being attacked. I don't really believe in our constitution or the Founding principles of hte Canadian government, so getting involved in politics seems like a hopeless battle for me.

I've been paying attention to Stefan Molyneux from www.freedomainradio.com and he gives some great perspectives on how to affect change beyond the political realm. In fact, he argues that getting involved in politics is only a waste of time, that encourages good people to support the "lesser evil" functions of government. I think he's right, because i've noticed a lot of us in this forum are willing to sacrifice our basic principles, if we can get a good conservative candidate like Sanford.

Sanford stands against many of the things i believe in, yet many people in this movement had no trouble supporting him until his affair scandal.

I will support Schiff, Kokesh and Rand Paul in any political ventures but, I do not have much hope that it will actually affect REAL change.

I'm really starting to believe that Government is evil, and will always expand so long as it's allowed to exist at all.

[acptulsa]

I have come to the same conclusion or confusion as the first few posts. You get to a point where it is like why bother since the efforts are futile and hopeless nationally. If that is the case then perhaps the efforts would be more effective and successful for regional successionist movements in order to enjoy freedom in our lifetime.

Excellent point. And we are. I believe that the Tenth Amendment Resolutions are the first step in this. Reasonable people could disagree with that, but at least these resolutions serve them notice--and get people thinking about which side they're on.

[Reason]

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

This quote has always given me inspiration when the going gets tough. :)

What's sad tho is that it doesn't seem to have much affect on so many other people :(

[acptulsa]

This quote has always given me inspiration when the going gets tough. :)

What's sad tho is that it doesn't seem to have much affect on so many other people :(

It's what evil counts upon. All too often a winning strategy...

This is not to say we have no right to get tired and rest up. It's just to say too much depends on us for us to give up for good.

[dgr]

I was recently invited to a meeting of independent orginizations by my local 9 12 coalition.
I was invited as a member of my county GOP and 2 GOP womans cluds, Freedom Works and Alipac. Other representatives were from Liberty Tree and 6 other orginizations.

I told them that as a I had been involved in GOP politics since the 70's that it was my opinion
very little could be accomplished inside the GOP.

For years it has been obvious to me that the liberal democrats and globalization Republicians want the same thing but for 2 different reasons. The speed with which the Obama administration is moving is due to the road paved by elite and globalization republicians.


The next week I went to the regular monthly meeting of the 9 12 coalition, there were almost a hundred people there, republicians, democrats, liberty forrest. and they all wanted the same thing, return to constitutional goverment of the people.

This was more people than attend the GOP county meetings in 3 counties that I go to combined.

Yes we must FIGHT we only have 18 months to orginize and make and impact in 2010 and we must continue to unite and grow if we are to survive as a nation otherwise we are doomed. Not just as a nation but as individuals

[Krugerrand]

Excellent point. And we are. I believe that the Tenth Amendment Resolutions are the first step in this. Reasonable people could disagree with that, but at least these resolutions serve them notice--and get people thinking about which side they're on.

Succession talk is dangerous politically. I think it's a perfectly valid conversation .... but be careful in how you articulate things.

This site links to a 2004 report (264KB pdf) that lists how many dollars each state received in spending for every dollar spent in taxes.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/62.html
Those saps in NJ were getting back $0.55 on the dollar.

I just started to look into this as a way to see if that could help predict which states may be best positioned to argue succession. Interestingly, by and large the red states seem to be doing much better than the blue states. The people arguing the most in favor of the increasing the federal government are dumping more and more of their money into the red states. I'll have to ponder that one for a while

[acptulsa]

This was more people than attend the GOP county meetings in 3 counties that I go to combined.

Yes we must FIGHT we only have 18 months to orginize and make and impact in 2010 and we must continue to unite and grow if we are to survive as a nation otherwise we are doomed. Not just as a nation but as individuals

Well, I wonder how much good those 9/12 people could do at those county meetings. That said, your message is inspirational. Thanks for all you have been doing.

I actually gave up on the LP decades ago, and have been all too inactive since. This past year and a half, all that pent up frustration found an outlet. Many of you are frustrated by a lack of progress. And yet, after screaming in the wilderness for so long, it feels to me like this movement is blossoming like a mushroom cloud. Just perspective, I guess.

I cheer you all on because your frustration is my delight. I don't mean that in the sadistic way it sounds, or that I don't want success. I just delight in not feeling so damned alone any more. At the Rally for the Republic Ron Paul said that, if we were right in saying he cured our apathy, well, we cured his cynicism. And (while traces of it may still show) y'all have done the same for me.

What do you think, dgr? Compared to the 1970s? Future's so bright gotta wear shades? :cool:

[acptulsa]

I just started to look into this as a way to see if that could help predict which states may be best positioned to argue succession. Interestingly, by and large the red states seem to be doing much better than the blue states. The people arguing the most in favor of the increasing the federal government are dumping more and more of their money into the red states. I'll have to ponder that one for a while

I've noticed this too. But, you know, I've also decided that a good many of those red states which receive such largesse wouldn't need it if the federal government weren't so inclined to ignore the needs of these less populous states and skew laws and regulations to favor the northeastern states. And, on some level, I think the people of these red states see this.

[JamesButabi]

Ive become frustrated on the national level. I feverently enjoy watching/supporting the success of the Free State Project in NH and jsut attended their national event (porcfest). www.freestateproject.org. While still supporting national candidates, and trying to educate locally, this is the greatest chance of the most possible liberty probably in my lifetime.

[Pericles]

Politics is a marathon, and not a sprint. One should also carefully choose when and where to fight - make sure to fight the right battle.

Assuming that we see the struggle as against increased central government power and abuse, we have two areas in which we can put our efforts -

(1) stop the federal government from taking on more authority

(2) State and local governments refuse to cede the authority that is rightfully theirs

I'd suggest that (2) is the more "winnable" fight.

[RevolutionSD]

I've had similar thoughts lately as well, Elwar.

As a Canadian, it doesn't do me much good to profess my respect for the US constitution, and getting into politics out here is just downright ugly. We are a very socialist nation, and many of us want more socialism. I don't think i could get into politics in Canada, without having some sort of stroke due to the stress of constantly being attacked. I don't really believe in our constitution or the Founding principles of hte Canadian government, so getting involved in politics seems like a hopeless battle for me.

I've been paying attention to Stefan Molyneux from www.freedomainradio.com and he gives some great perspectives on how to affect change beyond the political realm. In fact, he argues that getting involved in politics is only a waste of time, that encourages good people to support the "lesser evil" functions of government. I think he's right, because i've noticed a lot of us in this forum are willing to sacrifice our basic principles, if we can get a good conservative candidate like Sanford.

Sanford stands against many of the things i believe in, yet many people in this movement had no trouble supporting him until his affair scandal.

I will support Schiff, Kokesh and Rand Paul in any political ventures but, I do not have much hope that it will actually affect REAL change.

I'm really starting to believe that Government is evil, and will always expand so long as it's allowed to exist at all.

Glad to see you're coming over to the side of light, the only true path to freedom which is advocating a voluntary society. :)

[mcgraw_wv]

I found your answer today:

“He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself.”

[RonPaulR3VOLUTION]

..

[max]

Keep fighting until 2012......but don't let it consume you and eat you up.

Live your life first,

Me personally,..... if by 2012 I there isn't a serious third party challenge and Obama or a Romney gets back in...with a like minded Congress....that's when I throw in the towel and say screw this country....

[Sandman33]

The masses are wising up.

Instead of giving up you simply need to try harder and inform more people.

[akihabro]

No offense but she must not know anything about the 4th of July. If we all felt like "Why fight" then these tea parties, DHS home terrorism reports, Bernanke making threats to not be audited, etc wouldn't exist and we'd essentially be slaves. Man from the dawn of time has fought for what is right.
Sadly this burning passion of resistance from all the crap we are being fed has gone away in too many people. There are people who know what is the right thing to do and stand up for those who don't care or just don't want to fight because they have already succumbed.

[lynnf]

Ok, I was talking to my wife last night about getting active in the Republican or Libertarian Party now that we're settled into our new location. She asked me the question of...why fight it? Where has it gotten us? I told her that I didn't want to bring a kid into this world, that the only reason I could do it is if I could do something to make it better. She asked, what difference could I make...even devoting my whole life to bettering the country won't change the direction it's going, meanwhile giving up my life and my family's life for what? So that all of these people who have supported big government my whole life can have a better future?

I've been involved in politics for over a decade, as my county's LP president, running for Congress, going to the LP national convention, going to the state convention to support Ron Paul...for what? Fighting for that glorious 1-2% of the vote.

I always thought that Ron Paul was the last chance. During all of the Libertarian presidential runs I always figured...if only the LP candidate could be in the debates and get his message to the people...then he'd win in a landslide. Well, Ron Paul was able to get his message out during the debates and he was ridiculed, chastized and literally laughed at. And the voting Americans proved their unworthiness by voting against liberty. They proved that they do not want freedom as they keep talking about "Land of the Free". Why fight for these people? Why not say screw it...and watch out for number one?

I know the answer will come up..."well if everyone stopped fighting then we'd be a lot worse off". Well, if everyone had been fighting, we'd be a lot better off too, but they aren't...so why should I? Why should I fight to save people who don't want to be saved?

Of course...this is mainly just a rant...but my motivation level is dwindling.

Who is John Galt?

ask your wife, if she were about to be raped, if she should follow the proverbial advice to "lay back and enjoy it" or if she would prefer to fight against it. the conventional wisdom has come to be that it is preferred to fight tooth and nail.
sometimes it scares away the perpetrator.

lynn

[acptulsa]

This is the sort of coverage that not too long ago some might have considered trading a limb for. :D

Yes indeed. He Who Must Not Be Named is being named. That's not to say we can expect the same during the 2012 primaries, but then again maybe we can. We have served notice that we're sick of bull and we don't mind calling them on their bull.

While you rest up, look around at the progress we've made. Smell the roses. They're pretty sweet.