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View Full Version : Government Coercion will fix health care...




ClayTrainor
07-08-2009, 06:02 AM
This person, from another forum, is arguing that Capitalism is the reason America now has a corporatist health care system, and that Socialism is the only solution.

I'm just looking for some good points to consider, for a rebuttal :)

Here's his argument.


"companies aren't paristic, the government that regulates the competition is."

Really? Insurance companies have made billions in profits year after year, how many band aids were provided by the billions in toll-booth profiteering? Zero. Its pure parasitical, vampire, leech, parasite. They provide no service other than sucking money out of the system, thats why the US HC costs MORE and still leaves millions uninsured than UHC in other countries.

Regulations are required to prevent fraud and collusion, are such regulations really responsible? NO. You have to differentiate between regulation that mostly protects the People versus regulation that mostly protect corporate interests, you want the former and not the latter.

Roosevelt enacted the Glass Steagall Act, regulation to minimize conflicts of interests and consolidation/financial conglomerate integration, THAT was eroded under Reagan, withered away under Clinton, and Axed under Bush. There used to be Anti-trust laws that meant something, all we have heard in the past decades was aquisitions, fusions, mergers, conglomerates and Holding companies that control many large corporations. Even in monarchies there was competition between rival despots, it doesnt mean the people are free or that there was a level playing field between the peasants and the aristocrats.

Subprime is used to show government regulation as the problem, but its a decoy, BANKS have too much influence over the government they supressed regulations that kept them in check and allowed policies that benefited them. The reserve ration was reduced, the initial higher ratio was there to protect the public by limiting the amount of fraud banks could get away with, but banks at the fraud limitation reduced, loansharking as been made legal by lack of regulation, States attempted to fight subprime loansharking but the treasury dept's OCC interfered with the states rights to regulate against fraud and loansharking and allowed banks to get away with it. Derivatives, the quadrillion ton elephant in the room was NOT regulated, thats why fraudters on wall street ran that pyramid scheme.

Government is not the initial source of the problem, corporate power is and highjacked the government of the people(and media) to further its own agenda, thats why lack of regulation by itself is no good, thats like saying "less police" is the way to go when organized crime was allowed to get so powerful as to have the police dept on their payroll.

"but capitalism drives innovation and lower prices. If you remove profit incentives from doctors and drug manufacturers, competition will reduce, prices will get higher and there will be less innovation."

What? Innovation occurs as a by product of or dispite Capitalism.
Capitalism seeks PROFIT, NOT the betterment of mankind or knowledge. If War is profitable, women and children will die by the thousands. If drug addiction is profitable addictive drugs will fourish. If duping toxic waste that cause cancer on the nearby population is more profitable than cleaning up your act you will be on the hazardous waste band wagon train. If fraud is profitable, fraud will proliferate. If antiquated technology(ICE) based on a resource that can be controlled(OIL) is profitable, corporations will do all in their power to use the billions the make from profiteering from the old technology to suppress, by out, mothball, lobby away, litigate, and prevent Innovation. Capitalism seeks enslavement, addiction, dependancy, not autonomy and self-reliance, if you can make more profit by providing a solution you make sure is not permanently resolved you wont solve it permanetly and sure as hell wont help to prevent the problem for which you sell a solution. Penecilin was not made for profit, but to help mankind. Insulin was not discovered to have more green bills in your grave but to help people, Einstein did not come up with general relativity to sell more disposable razor blades but to further human knowledge and personal satisfaction. People now survive accidents that were deadly in previous decades not because it was a source of profit on the contrary but because regulations forced profit seeking douchbags to install seatbelts and airbags. If depleting the oceans is profitable in the short term, screw the planet and future generations, we want our extra buck. Dont get me wrong, there are aspects/sub-sets of capitalism that are beneficial, but these have to be differenciated from the negative aspects that are lumped in, its like having a sandwich with Bacon , Tomatoe and Cyanide, and saying that BTC sandwich is so good for you if you leave it alone and eat it as is. If I was on a communist site I'd be focusing on the Bacon and Tomatoe, but here you guys have to see the profit-seeking Cyanide built-in capitalism.

"One good one is that there's a reason Canadians come here for certain procedures that are not only often easy to perform"
Sure, but then you have to compare that handful of canadians that go to the US because they want better treatment or sooner, with the Millions of americans who are getting ZERO treatment and those that are covered but arent getting treatment when need it, and the scores of people that go bankrupt because the insurance they had will no longer cover them eventually down the road when they still need it.

ClayTrainor
07-08-2009, 09:05 AM
bump for input :)

torchbearer
07-08-2009, 09:08 AM
3rd party paying systems - private and public cause prices to increase.

A. Havnes
07-08-2009, 09:23 AM
HMOs cause the problem of healthcare, too.

The guy you're debating has said that corporations hijacked the government. This is only because the government allowed them to through special interests, etc. If the government's sole duties were to protect America and the freedoms of Americans, then corporations would have no place in government.

When the government starts working with corporations and allowing our currency to be run by an entity that should belong to the government, then we see what happens. We see the drug companies buying out the medical profession, the Federal Reserve encouraging banks to partake in risky behaviors. The guy talks about greed and profit a lot, but he doesn't realize that it is precisely the government's involvement that helps this along.

Socialism provides more regulations, but at what cost? Yes, healthcare does suffer under regulations. The medical industry is already over-regulated, and those who have breakthrough stuff are being snuffed out by the FDA because they can't make a profit. Guess what? The FDA is a government entity! How many harmful substances does it promote and endorse? How many healthy things does it try and suppress?

RonPaulR3VOLUTION
07-08-2009, 05:30 PM
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