I'm tired of people here bashing Dennis Kucinich

[AggieforPaul]

This man is an ally, not an enemy. He exposed the war in Iraq as a fraud on day one, he stands up for civil liberties, he wants to end fractional reserve banking and put the Fed under the control of the Treasury and under the oversight of Congress.

He has some positions that piss me off sure, but so does Ron Paul tbh. Kucinich may want to spend more than most people here are comfortable with, but at least he wants to spend it on things that would actually help people.

[Paulfan05]

The media doesn't like him so he must be doing something right eh?

[Aratus]

true...

[dantheman]

I absolutely agree 100%. We need more guys like Kucinich on our side who can reach out to Democrats and bring them to a better understanding of principles based on the Constitution. Thank you AggieforPaul.

[__27__]

I agree as well. I've always encouraged every democrat I know to check out Kucinich when they tell me they agree with much of what RP and I are telling them, but are uncomfortable with us being "conservative" or "Republican".

ETA: Perhaps he'd even bring a boon of supporters from the other side if we got him on a ticket with a guy like Paul or Schiff?

[Reason]

omg he has a few economic ideas that RP doesn't agree with!

burn him at the stake!

:rolleyes:

[disorderlyvision]

He is against the second amendment fxck Kucinich


Dennis Kucinich on Gun Control
Democratic Representative (OH-10)




We have babies dying in the streets; ban handguns
Q: How would you address gun violence that continues to be the #1 cause of death among African-American men?
A: I was mayor of Cleveland and I grew up in the city and you could sometimes hear gunshots as part of the music of the night. We know that there’s a Virginia Tech happening in this country every day. At least 32 people are killed every day with handguns. We know that over a period of 100 days, as many people are killed by handguns as died in 9/11 in this country. We know that there is a crisis of public safety and security. We have babies dying in the streets because of these handguns. Now, we’ve got to give a direct answer. It is time that we ban handguns. We have to do that in order to protect our cities. It is time that we took a position that says that the 14th Amendment, you know, that right to life, liberty, is just as important as the 2nd Amendment. It’s time that we took a stand on behalf of the health and safety of the American people and, as president, I’m ready to do that

Source: 2007 NAACP Presidential Primary Forum Jul 12, 2007

Ban sale or transfer of semi-automatic guns
Kucinich supports the following principles regarding guns:
Reauthorize the ban on the sale or transfer of semi-automatic guns, except those used for hunting.
Maintain and strengthen the current level of enforcement of existing federal restrictions on the purchase and possession of guns.
Require background checks on gun sales between private citizens at gun shows.
Require a license for gun possession.
Source: Congressional 2006 National Political Awareness Test Nov 1, 2006

Require background checks, licensing, and fingerprinting
Which principles do you support regarding guns:
Require manufacturers to provide child-safety locks.
Require background checks on gun sales between private citizens at gun shows.
Require a license for gun possession.
Establish a national database of ballistic “fingerprints” to track guns used in criminal activities.
Renew the ban on the sale or transfer of semi-automatic guns.
Strengthen the enforcement of existing federal restrictions on the purchase and possession of guns.
Source: 2004 Presidential National Political Awareness Test Jan 8, 2004

Voted NO on prohibiting product misuse lawsuits on gun manufacturers.
A bill to prohibit civil liability actions from being brought or continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of firearms or ammunition for damages, injunctive or other relief resulting from the misuse of their products by others. A YES vote would:
Prohibit individuals from filing a qualified civil liability action
Exempt lawsuits brought against individuals who knowingly transfer a firearm that will be used to commit a violent or drug-trafficking crime
Exempt lawsuits against actions that result in death, physical injury or property damage due solely to a product defect
Dismiss of all civil liability actions pending on the date of enactment
Prohibit the manufacture, import, sale or delivery of armor piercing ammunition
Reference: Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act; Bill S 397 ; vote number 2005-534 on Oct 20, 2005

Voted NO on prohibiting suing gunmakers & sellers for gun misuse.
Vote to pass a bill that would prohibit liability lawsuits from being brought against gun manufacturers and dealers based on the criminal misuse of firearms. The bill would also block these actions from being brought up against gun trade organizations and against ammunition makers and sellers. The measure would apply immediately to any pending cases. Several specific exceptions to the ban exist. This includes civil suits would be allowed against a maker or dealer who "knowingly and willfully violated" state or federal laws in the selling or marketing of a weapon. Design and manufacturing defect lawsuits are also permitted when weapons are "used as intended.
Reference: Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act; Bill HR 1036 ; vote number 2003-124 on Apr 9, 2003

Voted NO on decreasing gun waiting period from 3 days to 1.
Vote to pass a bill requiring anyone who purchases a gun at a gun show to go through an instant background check which must be completed within 24 hours [instead of 72 hours].
Reference: Bill introduced by McCollum, R-FL; Bill HR 2122 ; vote number 1999-244 on Jun 18, 1999

Rated F by the NRA, indicating a pro-gun control voting record.
Kucinich scores F by NRA on pro-gun rights policies
While widely recognized today as a major political force and as America's foremost defender of Second Amendment rights, the National Rifle Association (NRA) has, since its inception, been the premier firearms education organization in the world. But our successes would not be possible without the tireless efforts and countless hours of service our nearly three million members have given to champion Second Amendment rights and support NRA programs.

While widely recognized today as a major political force and as America's foremost defender of Second Amendment rights, the National Rifle Association (NRA) has, since its inception, been the premier firearms education organization in the world. But our successes would not be possible without the tireless efforts and countless hours of service our nearly three million members have given to champion Second Amendment rights and support NRA programs.

The following ratings are based on lifetime voting records on gun issues and the results of a questionaire sent to all Congressional candidates; the NRA assigned a letter grade (with A+ being the highest and F being the lowest).

Source: NRA website 02n-NRA on Dec 31, 2003

[Epic]

Kucinich isn't close to supporting freedom... His stances on some civil liberties are just incidental. When the OP says he doesn't agree with RP on some issues, that could be why he supports Kucinich.

[free.alive]

He is a commie. What do you expect? His ideas aren't exactly conducive to Liberty. If he were able to get the things he wanted, we would all suffer under his good and noble intentions.

[Aratus]

leon trotsky was a commie. gus hall was a commie. trust me!
eugene debs was a socialist. norman thomas was a socialist.

[Aratus]

dennis is dennis. he's our treasury "elf" fit to go into D&D mode to do 'roleplayer' battles with Obama's "elf" geithner...

[fisharmor]

at least he wants to spend it on things that would actually help people.

But the point is that they wouldn't help people.
There are only two types of politicians. The kind that realize that the government is the enemy, and the kind who want to wield the power of the empire. Dennis is the second type.

The ring is evil, Frodo. It does not matter what you want to do with it. It's going to have its own way eventually. And I dare say Dennis' eventually would be a lot sooner than most peoples'.

[klamath]

I guess we can say the same about McCain, Bush and others, let's quit generally bashing them because they have agreed with us on a few issues.

[raiha]

Bedtter a good commie than a psychopathic neocon:p
Aggieforpaul...who cares what people with arteriosclerosis of the psyche think?

[yongrel]

I'm not tired of it at all.

[puppetmaster]

sorry I hurt your feelings. With that being said..... I still do not like him or his policies

[muh_roads]

If the entire left half of congress that dems own were all like Kucinich half the shit going on wouldn't be nearly as bad.

Kucinich isn't perfect but he's a million times better than the Pelosi's that plague the halls of Washington. He has balls to try and impeach bush & cheney. He votes against TARP twice, he votes against the war, he votes against funding it, he votes against cap & trade.

If it was Kucinich vs McCain I would have gone with that pimp-daddy elf in a heart beat.

[Elwar]

In his 2004 run, he won the endorsement of the Communist party USA. (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=630)

In April 1998, Kucinich voted NO to the implementation of a voucher program designed to help low-income families send their children to private schools if they wished. (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=630)

Taxes: In March 2000 Kucinich voted NO on $46 billion in tax cuts for small businesses. In April 2001 he voted NO on eliminating the “death tax.” The following month, he voted against a tax-cut package of $958 billion over 10 years. In October 2001 he voted NO on a $99 billion economic stimulus package. In April 2002 he voted against making President Bush’s 2001 tax cuts permanent. In May 2004 he voted against making permanent an increase in the child tax credit. In December 2005 he voted against retaining reduced tax rates on capital gains and dividends. (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=630)


Patriot Act: In October 2001 Kucinich voted to pass the Patriot Act anti-terrorism legislation.


Medical Care: In September 2003 Kucinich said: “The pharmaceutical companies and the insurance companies control our health care system. I've introduced legislation that provides for a totally new change; that has health care for people, not for profit. It's called Medicare For All. It's a single-payer program. And it's financed by a 7.7% tax paid by employers.” (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=630)

[disorderlyvision]

If the entire left half of congress that dems own were all like Kucinich half the shit going on wouldn't be nearly as bad.

Kucinich isn't perfect but he's a million times better than the Pelosi's that plague the halls of Washington. He votes against TARP twice, he votes against the war, he votes against funding it, he votes against cap & trade.

If it was Kucinich vs McCain I would have gone with that pimp-daddy elf in a heart beat.


So you believe in the lesser of two evils approach I see:rolleyes:

[muh_roads]

So you believe in the lesser of two evils approach I see:rolleyes:

I would sure feel a lot more at ease with him than if Obama was running the show. Ron Paul might have even been Kucinich's running mate as he expressed before.

The lesser of two evil's is subjective. What you view as evil I don't, and vice versa. I don't care about the abortion debate, and I don't agree with Ron Paul when it comes to his stance on Tariff's. That didn't prevent me from liking Paul the most.

Only a New World Order tyrant wants everyone to agree and be perfectly on the same page with no differences.

[Feenix566]

Kucinich's pro-liberty positions:
-Opposes the patriot act
-Opposes Iraq war
-Opposes war with Iran
-Critical of Diebold election fraud machines
-Opposes flag-burning amendment
-Opposes US support of Israel
-Supports equal rights for gay Americans
-Opposes death penalty
-Supports lowering the drinking age to 18
-Opposes the War on Drugs
-Supports legalizing immigration
-Opposes the World Trade Organization
-Opposes bank bailouts

Kucinish's anti-liberty positions:
-Supports ban of handguns
-Supports government monopoly of health care
-Supports Kyoto protocol

I'd rather have Kucinich in the White house than any other Democrat I can think of. In a race between Kucinich and a neocon such as McCain or Romney, I'd vote for Kucinich.

[jkr]

LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!!!

sorry

i like the man from cleveland well enough.

[muh_roads]

In April 1998, Kucinich voted NO to the implementation of a voucher program designed to help low-income families send their children to private schools if they wished. (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=630)

Like I said Kucinich isn't perfect but why should low income families who pay no taxes get vouchers to send their kids to private school?

[klamath]

If the entire left half of congress that dems own were all like Kucinich half the shit going on wouldn't be nearly as bad.

Kucinich isn't perfect but he's a million times better than the Pelosi's that plague the halls of Washington. He has balls to try and impeach bush & cheney. He votes against TARP twice, he votes against the war, he votes against funding it, he votes against cap & trade.

If it was Kucinich vs McCain I would have gone with that pimp-daddy elf in a heart beat.

He only voted against Cap and trade because it didn't go far enough. By his own statements it was because it didn't send enough of the collected money overseas to other countries, didn't put enough pressure on China, (nice nonintervention there:rolleyes:) and didn't tax enough.

[Feenix566]

Like I said Kucinich isn't perfect but why should low income families who pay no taxes get vouchers to send their kids to private school?

So their kids can get an education and maybe not end up like their parents?

[muh_roads]

He only voted against Cap and trade because it didn't go far enough. By his own statements it was because it didn't send enough of the collected money overseas to other countries, didn't put enough pressure on China, (nice nonintervention there:rolleyes:) and didn't tax enough.

I remember Ron Paul saying 20 out of the 44 No votes from dems were truly against the bill and couldn't be swayed. I guess I'm assuming Kucinich would be one of those few.

Can you link what you claimed?

[muh_roads]

So their kids can get an education and maybe not end up like their parents?

So you want to pay for their public schooling AND their private schooling?

Only those who pay the taxes should get the vouchers.

[acptulsa]

He's an honest liberal. He honestly thinks government can help people, and works hard toward that end. Now, in my book that makes his grip on reality awfully shaky. But then, when I tell people I honestly think government can shrink once it has overgrown, I get much the same reaction.

I'd vote for him for any office, any time--if he were running against Mitt Romney. I value honesty over sanity.

[disorderlyvision]

Kucinich's pro-liberty positions:
-Opposes the patriot act



07/21/2005 PATRIOT Act Reauthorization
HR 3199 Yes

06/15/2005 Patriot Act Amendment - Library Records
H AMDT 280 Yes

09/14/2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force
H J Res 64 Yes

really?

[Danke]

I remember Ron Paul saying 20 out of the 44 No votes from dems were truly against the bill and couldn't be swayed. I guess I'm assuming Kucinich would be one of those few.

Can you link what you claimed?

It has been posted here on RPFs before. Do a search.


So you want to pay for their public schooling AND their private schooling?

Only those who pay the taxes should get the vouchers.

Why, I pay school taxes and have no children. If they are gonna take money from me, I say give them a choice where to spend it. Might improve their education.

[free.alive]

thank you disorderlyvision!

[muh_roads]

Why, I pay school taxes and have no children. If they are gonna take money from me, I say give them a choice where to spend it. Might improve their education.

I'm the first to prefer private over public. I would prefer no one get taxed at all and people have to pay to send their own children instead. You're right. I have no children, why should I pay? But while we are forced to pay for public I don't want to create a second new welfare bureaucracy so the poor can get private paid for. That might even worsen the private education system in the long run.

[klamath]

On a voting record summary that gives RP 100% on his constitutional voting Dennis gets a 46% . Ever republican congressmen in texas had a higher score than that. By the logic being displayed on this thread we should all pretty much vote a straight Republican ticket.:rolleyes:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/files/Freedom_Index_110-4.pdf

[muh_roads]

009/14/2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force
H J Res 64 Yes

really?

Ron Paul voted for this too. Just-war theory of Christianity. We thought we were attacked by Afghanistan at the time.

[Stary Hickory]

Ah ok so a Socialist/Statist is ok to support because he is not a fan of the FED. Gotcha....I'll pass thanks.

[Feenix566]

So you want to pay for their public schooling AND their private schooling?


Who says the vouchers should only be accepted at private schools? Why not let every school accept them?

And if it's gonna cost me the same thing either way, why do I care where they go? It should be their choice. I'd rather pay for a kid to go to a school of his/her choice than pay to force the kid to go to a failing public school.



Only those who pay the taxes should get the vouchers.

Everyone pays every tax, in the form of higher prices and lower wages. Every corporation employs high-salary workers. Every corporation factors in the price of taxes (both payroll taxes and income taxes) into the cost of employing those employees. Every corporation passes on the cost of those taxes to the consumers in the form of higher prices. Everyone pays every tax in the form of higher prices on goods produced by every corporation.

[klamath]

I remember Ron Paul saying 20 out of the 44 No votes from dems were truly against the bill and couldn't be swayed. I guess I'm assuming Kucinich would be one of those few.

Can you link what you claimed?



Submitted by Eugmc on June 27, 2009 - 2:36pm. Cleveland/Cuyahoga County Congress Local News News Politics U.S. Politics

Cleveland area Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) laid out the reasons he opposed and voted against H.R. 2454, The American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009. The vast majority of fellow Democrats voted in favor of the measure which passed the House and is on the way to the Senate for a vote. Kucinich stated in a press release:

“I oppose H.R. 2454, the American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009. The reason is simple. It won’t address the problem. In fact, it might make the problem worse.

“It sets targets that are too weak, especially in the short term, and sets about meeting those targets through Enron-style accounting methods. It gives new life to one of the primary sources of the problem that should be on its way out– coal – by giving it record subsidies. And it is rounded out with massive corporate giveaways at taxpayer expense. There is $60 billion for a single technology which may or may not work, but which enables coal power plants to keep warming the planet at least another 20 years.

“Worse, the bill locks us into a framework that will fail. Science tells us that immediately is not soon enough to begin repairing the planet. Waiting another decade or more will virtually guarantee catastrophic levels of warming. But the bill does not require any greenhouse gas reductions beyond current levels until 2030.

“Today’s bill is a fragile compromise, which leads some to claim that we cannot do better. I respectfully submit that not only can we do better; we have no choice but to do better. Indeed, if we pass a bill that only creates the illusion of addressing the problem, we walk away with only an illusion. The price for that illusion is the opportunity to take substantive action.

“There are several aspects of the bill that are problematic.

1. Overall targets are too weak. The bill is predicated on a target atmospheric concentration of 450 parts per million, a target that is arguably justified in the latest report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, but which is already out of date. Recent science suggests 350 parts per million is necessary to help us avoid the worst effects of global warming.

2. The offsets undercut the emission reductions. Offsets allow polluters to keep polluting; they are rife with fraudulent claims of emissions reduction; they create environmental, social, and economic unintended adverse consequences; and they codify and endorse the idea that polluters do not have to make sacrifices to solve the problem.

3. It kicks the can down the road. By requiring the bulk of the emissions to be carried out in the long term and requiring few reductions in the short term, we are not only failing to take the action when it is needed to address rapid global warming, but we are assuming the long term targets will remain intact.

4. EPA’s authority to help reduce greenhouse gas emissions in the short- to medium-term is rescinded. It is our best defense against a new generation of coal power plants. There is no room for coal as a major energy source in a future with a stable climate.

5. Nuclear power is given a lifeline instead of phasing it out. Nuclear power is far more expensive, has major safety issues including a near release in my own home state in 2002, and there is still no resolution to the waste problem. A recent study by Dr. Mark Cooper showed that it would cost $1.9 trillion to $4.1 trillion more over the life of 100 new nuclear reactors than to generate the same amount of electricity from energy efficiency and renewables.

6. Dirty Coal is given a lifeline instead of phasing it out. Coal-based energy destroys entire mountains, kills and injures workers at higher rates than most other occupations, decimates ecologically sensitive wetlands and streams, creates ponds of ash that are so toxic the Department of Homeland Security will not disclose their locations for fear of their potential to become a terrorist weapon, and fouls the air and water with sulfur oxides, nitrogen oxides, particulates, mercury, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, and thousands of other toxic compounds that cause asthma, birth defects, learning disabilities, and pulmonary and cardiac problems for starters. In contrast, several times more jobs are yielded by renewable energy investments than comparable coal investments.

7. The $60 billion allocated for Carbon Capture and Sequestration (CCS) is triple the amount of money for basic research and development in the bill. We should be pressuring China, India and Russia to slow and stop their power plants now instead of enabling their perpetuation. We cannot create that pressure while spending unprecedented amounts on a single technology that may or may not work. If it does not work on the necessary scale, we have then spent 10-20 years emitting more CO2, which we cannot afford to do. In addition, those who will profit from the technology will not be viable or able to stem any leaks from CCS facilities that may occur 50, 100, or 1000 years from now.

8. Carbon markets can and will be manipulated using the same Wall Street sleights of hand that brought us the financial crisis.

9. It is regressive. Free allocations doled out with the intent of blunting the effects on those of modest means will pale in comparison to the allocations that go to polluters and special interests. The financial benefits of offsets and unlimited banking also tend to accrue to large corporations. And of course, the trillion dollar carbon derivatives market will help Wall Street investors. Much of the benefits designed to assist consumers are passed through coal companies and other large corporations, on whom we will rely to pass on the savings.

10. The Renewable Electricity Standard (RES) is not an improvement. The 15% RES standard would be achieved even if we failed to act.

11. Dirty energy options qualify as “renewable”: The bill allows polluting industries to qualify as “renewable energy.” Trash incinerators not only emit greenhouse gases, but also emit highly toxic substances. These plants disproportionately expose communities of color and low-income to the toxics. Biomass burners that allow the use of trees as a fuel source are also defined as “renewable.” Under the bill, neither source of greenhouse gas emissions is counted as contributing to global warming.

12. It undermines our bargaining position in international negotiations in Copenhagen and beyond. As the biggest per capita polluter, we have a responsibility to take action that is disproportionately stronger than the actions of other countries. It is, in fact, the best way to preserve credibility in the international context.

13. International assistance is much less than demanded by developing countries. Given the level of climate change that is already in the pipeline, we are going to need to devote major resources toward adaptation. Developing countries will need it the most, which is why they are calling for much more resources for adaptation and technology transfer than is allocated in this bill. This will also undercut our position in Copenhagen.
“I offered eight amendments and cosponsored two more that collectively would have turned the bill into an acceptable starting point. All amendments were not allowed to be offered to the full House. Three amendments endeavored to minimize the damage that will be done by offsets, a method of achieving greenhouse gas reductions that has already racked up a history of failure to reduce emissions – increasing emissions in some cases – while displacing people in developing countries who rely on the land for their well being.

“Three other amendments would have made the federal government a force for change by requiring all federal energy to eventually come from renewable resources, by requiring the federal government to transition to electric and plug-in hybrid cars, and by requiring the installation of solar panels on government rooftops and parking lots. These provisions would accelerate the transition to a green economy.

“Another amendment would have moved up the year by which reductions of greenhouse gas emissions were required from 2030 to 2025. It would have encouraged the efficient use of allowances and would have reduced opportunities for speculation by reducing the emission value of an allowance by a third each year.

“The last amendment would have removed trash incineration from the definition of renewable energy. Trash incineration is one of the primary sources of environmental injustice in the country. It a primary source of compounds in the air known to cause cancer, asthma, and other chronic diseases. These facilities are disproportionately sited in communities of color and communities of low income. Furthermore, incinerators emit more carbon dioxide per unit of electricity produced than coal-fired power plants.

“Passing a weak bill today gives us weak environmental policy tomorrow,” said Kucinich.

[klamath]

Ron Paul voted for this too. Just-war theory of Christianity. We thought we were attacked by Afghanistan at the time.

Do a google search on how kucinich voted on the Iraqi Liberation Act the stated it was the Official US policy to get rid of Sadamn. I don't think you will be to happy with what you find. I guess Clinton was for it so that makes it all good:rolleyes:

[muh_roads]

Who says the vouchers should only be accepted at private schools? Why not let every school accept them?

And if it's gonna cost me the same thing either way, why do I care where they go? It should be their choice. I'd rather pay for a kid to go to a school of his/her choice than pay to force the kid to go to a failing public school.

Everyone pays every tax, in the form of higher prices and lower wages. Every corporation employs high-salary workers. Every corporation factors in the price of taxes (both payroll taxes and income taxes) into the cost of employing those employees. Every corporation passes on the cost of those taxes to the consumers in the form of higher prices. Everyone pays every tax in the form of higher prices on goods produced by every corporation.

I only accept...

1. Vouchers for all across the board so yes it creates competition between all schools.

2. If not #1, then vouchers for only those who pay taxes.

If vouchers are ONLY allowed for those who don't pay taxes you'll be creating a second ponzi account which will get out of hand as everything else does.

[muh_roads]

Do a google search on how kucinich voted on the Iraqi Liberation Act the stated it was the Official US policy to get rid of Sadamn. I don't think you will be to happy with what you find. I guess Clinton was for it so that makes it all good:rolleyes:

I am just stating that HJ Res 64 wasn't evil at the time given our information.

Never said Kucinich was perfect nor did I agree with the 1998 Act.

[Elwar]

Kucinich's anti-liberty positions:
-Supports ban of handguns
-Supports ban of semi-automatic guns
-Supports Socialized health care
-Supports Socialized prescription drugs
-Supports Kyoto protocol
-Voted against tax cuts for small businesses
-Voted against eliminating the "death tax"
-Voted against income tax cuts
-Voted against making tax cuts permanent
-Voted against tax cuts on capital gains and dividends
-Supports hate crime legislation calling for stricter sentencing
-Pro-government schools anti-private schools
-Supports public funding through college
-Supports raising CAFE standards to 45 mpg
-Supports regulating electricity and gas prices
-Supports Carbon tax
-Water should be government owned ("market has no place in water distribution")
-Voted to increase Amtrak funding
-Free trade encourages privatization, so avoid it
-Americans' social conciousness overrides cheap goods
-Public financing for elections-
-Rated F by the NRA as pro-gun control
-Supports socialist Social Security, wanting to lower the retirement age
-Rejects proposals for private savings account (or anything privatized)
-Voted against raising 401(k) limits
-98% lifetime pro-union record
-Wants to give $300 to every person
-Public sector has moral obligation to provide jobs

Or just read this article about why Progressives should vote Kucinich (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040301/dugger)

http://ontheissues.org/images/s090_010.gif
"Dennis Kucinich is a Hard-Core Liberal"

[NerveShocker]

Kucinich's heart might be in the right place.. but his head sure isn't. He just isn't smart enough to understand the differences between liberty and tyranny in my opinion.

[Feenix566]

Kucinich's heart might be in the right place.. but his head sure isn't. He just isn't smart enough to understand the differences between liberty and tyranny in my opinion.

Every politicans' heart is in the right place. Every damn one. Even Hitler and Stalin thought they were doing what was best for their people.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Athan]

The media doesn't like him so he must be doing something right eh?

Heh, this is true.

[erowe1]

This man is an ally, not an enemy. He exposed the war in Iraq as a fraud on day one, he stands up for civil liberties, he wants to end fractional reserve banking and put the Fed under the control of the Treasury and under the oversight of Congress.

He has some positions that piss me off sure, but so does Ron Paul tbh. Kucinich may want to spend more than most people here are comfortable with, but at least he wants to spend it on things that would actually help people.

How can you end fractional reserve banking and still have a federal reserve at all? Are you sure you got that part right?

Also, maybe part of the reason you like Kucinich more than others here is because of those differences you claim you have against Ron Paul's positions. This is the Ron Paul forums, after all. As those of us who are Ron Paul supporters see things, all those programs Kucinich wants to spend money on don't actually help people as you say, at least not in their overall effects. When all's said and done, they hurt a lot more than they help.

[V-rod]

Here's a non bash for ya..

Did you know his wife is hot as hell???

[Objectivist]

This man is an ally, not an enemy. He exposed the war in Iraq as a fraud on day one, he stands up for civil liberties, he wants to end fractional reserve banking and put the Fed under the control of the Treasury and under the oversight of Congress.

He has some positions that piss me off sure, but so does Ron Paul tbh. Kucinich may want to spend more than most people here are comfortable with, but at least he wants to spend it on things that would actually help people.

Show me how many tax increases he voted against and then I'll point you to the name of this forum.... there is no Liberty in taxation.

[Steeleye]

Kookcinich's campaign song:
YouTube - The Internationale in English (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4N_07o0PJU)

[dantheman]

Are we ever going to make any allies in this fight? Or are all of you just going to keep slamming the door in the face of everyone who isn't like Ron Paul? Because I don't know if y'all have noticed, but there ain't any left like him in Washington. Give Kucinich a chance.

[Elwar]

Stalin was also against a private central bank. Would he have been an ally?

[Stary Hickory]

Are we ever going to make any allies in this fight? Or are all of you just going to keep slamming the door in the face of everyone who isn't like Ron Paul? Because I don't know if y'all have noticed, but there ain't any left like him in Washington. Give Kucinich a chance.

Lord I am all for finding allies where we can. But Kucinich is a statist. He is not simply misguided, he does not believe in liberty or freedom. This is completely incompatable with libertarianism. I don't care if he hates the FED, great, we can work with him there. But he is NOT with us. I believe he even signed on the exploratory probe for Mandatory Service.

[mediahasyou]

im open to all bashing of dennis, ron, and everyone.

no politician should be put on a pedestal like they are some god because they're not. politicians dont make the world go round, they don't produce anything to make life better, they simply redistribute power and money. anyone can do it.

get real. politicians deserve bashing because they take money from me by force just as a thief deserves bashing.

[gls]

My guess is that the vast majority of republicans are more libertarian than Kucinich, and the vast majority of republicans are not libertarian whatsoever.

[jsu718]

The one major thing that people here WON'T bash Kucinich for is his stance on the Federal Reserve. And at least he is a genuine guy, which is more than you can say for 90% of the other representatives. As far as Democrats go, he might be a socialist (legitimately) but he is consistent and doesn't sell out. It's just how he really feels on the issues.
And no, the vast majority of Republicans are not more libertarian than Kucinich... they tend toward the statist/populist side of things.

[CUnknown]

Elwar, Let me sum up your objections with Kucinich into categories and deal with them:


He's pro-gun control
Pro-government health care
Pro-environment and regulation of CO2
Wants to balance the budget through tax increases
Anti-privatization
Pro-union


First, let me say that being pro-union is not an anti-liberty position. People have the right to free association.

As far as environmental and energy issues go, he believes in man-caused global warming. Regardless of how pro-liberty you are, if you hold this belief, you will be in support of certain government interventions and international treaties to limit CO2 emissions. The cognitive dissonance that would be generated by being both pro-liberty and pro-government interventions such as carbon taxation is the prime reason why most people on this board do not believe in man-caused, CO2-based global warming. It has nothing to do with the science of global warming, which is sound. My point is that being pro-environment and pro-carbon taxation does not make you anti-liberty, necessarily. All it means is that you'll have to deal with some cognitive dissonance.

Let's talk about government health care. I don't mean to start an argument, but given the case of France, England, Canada, etc... all countries that have government health care that is far better than the health care we currently have in the US... please cut him some slack on that one. There are good reasons to believe that a single-payer system is superior to the system we have now.

As far as gun control, taxation, and anti-privatization positions Kucinich holds... well, sure. He's a socialist, lol. But, I believe these positions are balanced by the positions he shares with us:


Kucinich is anti-NAFTA and WTO.
He wants to audit and reign in the Fed.
He wants to end the wars.
He wants to restore habeas corpus, end domestic spying.
He wants to end the government/corporate merger (aka Fascism)


He agrees with us on a lot of important stuff. Compare that to most people in either party who agree with us on basically nothing. Kucinich is an ally, plain and simple.

[Elwar]

First, let me say that being pro-union is not an anti-liberty position. People have the right to free association.

Being pro-union is not necessarily an anti-liberty position. Voting in Congress to help unions is anti-liberty. Why would the Federal government need to inject police force for anything that a union might want to freely do?


My point is that being pro-environment and pro-carbon taxation does not make you anti-liberty, necessarily.

Pro-any taxation is anti-liberty. Theft is theft is theft. Carbon theft is just as bad as income theft.


Let's talk about government health care. I don't mean to start an argument, but given the case of France, England, Canada, etc... all countries that have government health care that is far better than the health care we currently have in the US... please cut him some slack on that one. There are good reasons to believe that a single-payer system is superior to the system we have now.

You mean the Canada health care where people are driving to the US to be treated and they're losing all of their doctors to the US? Or the socialized health care in England that requires long waiting periods to be treated?

What part of a single-payer system promotes competition? Are monopolies ok only when they're controlled by people who know nothing about the industry that they're controlling?



As far as gun control, taxation, and anti-privatization positions Kucinich holds... well, sure. He's a socialist, lol.

So was Castro, Mao and Stalin, lol.


But, I believe these positions are balanced by the positions he shares with us:


Kucinich is anti-NAFTA and WTO.
He wants to audit and reign in the Fed.
He wants to end the wars.
He wants to restore habeas corpus, end domestic spying.
He wants to end the government/corporate merger (aka Fascism)


He agrees with us on a lot of important stuff. Compare that to most people in either party who agree with us on basically nothing. Kucinich is an ally, plain and simple.

So, a socialist wants to get out of NAFTA and the WTO because he feels that "free trade encourages privatization so it should be avoided".

So, he wants to end the Fed so that he can "Incorporate the Federal Reserve System into the U.S. Treasury where all new money is created by government...and spent into circulation to promote the general welfare. ...Spend new money into circulation on infrastructure, including education, health care...starting with the $1.6 trillion that the American Society of Civil Engineers estimate is needed for infrastructure repair...re-funding government at all levels." (http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2007/11/19/kucinich-health-care-infrastructure-federal-reserve-bank-video-2005/)

He wants to spend military money on indoctrinating our children but he's ok because he wants to end the war.

And, just like most socialists he is against private industry, but he doesn't want the government to spy on us...so he's given a pass.

Again, if Stalin was against the Federal Reserve, would you be defending him as someone we should create an alliance with?

[gls]

the cognitive dissonance that would be generated by being both pro-liberty and pro-government interventions such as carbon taxation is the prime reason why most people on this board do not believe in man-caused, co2-based global warming. It has nothing to do with the science of global warming, which is sound.

bullshit

[Epic]

The one major thing that people here WON'T bash Kucinich for is his stance on the Federal Reserve. And at least he is a genuine guy, which is more than you can say for 90% of the other representatives. As far as Democrats go, he might be a socialist (legitimately) but he is consistent and doesn't sell out. It's just how he really feels on the issues.
And no, the vast majority of Republicans are not more libertarian than Kucinich... they tend toward the statist/populist side of things.

Are you crazy? Dennis Kucicinch doesn't want to end the fed, he wants to put in under Treasury. He deserves to be ridiculed for that.

And yes, nearly all republicans are more libertarian than Kucinich, who is generally socialist.

[Epic]

Let's talk about government health care. I don't mean to start an argument, but given the case of France, England, Canada, etc... all countries that have government health care that is far better than the health care we currently have in the US... please cut him some slack on that one. There are good reasons to believe that a single-payer system is superior to the system we have now.


Didn't think I'd see too many communist talk points on RPF.... of course our health care system is screwed up, but it's screwed up due to government intervention. And the socialist countries don't have better healthcare systems - there are extreme rationing and cost overruns, the only reason that it costs more here is because all of the elective procedures and new medical techniques that people CHOOSE to pay for. In socialist countries, all of the healthcare payments are taken from people at the point of a gun. In this country, only half of it is.

[Stary Hickory]

bullshit

Seconded definitely bullshit. You ask for proof and you get "well sometimes it gets hotter or cooler outside"

That is the extent of their proof

[fisharmor]

bullshit

Yeah, to expand on that, every seemingly sound bit of science that gets paraded out to support anthropogenic global warming is always soundly refuted shortly thereafter.
Whenever there is a refutation, there is never a reply from the believers. Only more bullshit evidence in support of their bullshit theories. Which bullshit gets debunked in turn.
The cycle continues.

And Kucinich eats a steady diet of this bullshit.

Of course, as Gary North pointed out recently (http://www.garynorth.com/public/5156.cfm), the point is never the environment, it's always socialism.
Furthering the notion that Kucinich is a socialist statist who is only doing what he does in furtherance of Leviathan.

[CUnknown]

Tell me exactly where in my logic you find the BS.

Most people (on this forum and elsewhere) have not bothered to look at the science, and/or do not have the background to digest it anyway.

Even if people who are anti-global warming have looked at the science, it is only upon goading by someone like me, or perhaps it was read about in an article trashing that same scientific evidence. The point is, their opinion had mostly already been formed before they looked at the evidence.

Most people's opinions on this topic, probably both pro-global warming and anti-, are formed based on something other than the evidence.

I'm sure you would agree with me that most people who are pro-warming got their opinion from the media.

Well, my main point about this was that most people who are both anti-warming and pro-liberty most likely got their opinion on warming because of the cognitive dissonance coming from their pro-liberty mindset. These people (I mean us) are pre-disposed to disbelieving global warming, because it conflicts with being pro-liberty.

You're saying that's BS?

[HRD53]

Life long Cleveland resident here. I've had a lot of exposure to Dennis Kuninich and i always laugh when I see the threads on here stating how great he is...

I also think its incredibly dumb to like him because 'the media doesn't'. Great critical thinking there...

My opinion of the guy goes as follows:

Do i think Dennis is an honest man? yes

Do i think his policies are bat shit crazy? yes

He may agree with us on some positions, but his overall philosophy is the following: (and let me put this in bold letters)

Government should run your life

I do not know how anyone who considers themselves libertarian could really be so enamored with this guy. He wants to take your liberties away... I can't emphasize that point enough. I'm glad he is with us on the war issue, but outside of that, the guy pretty much wants government to play Santa Claus not only domestically, but also overseas.

As far as i'm concerned, he can go fly off in his U.F.O. Just remember, no matter how well-intentioned, the man would shit all over your liberties if he could...

[penguin]

I like Dennis because I know where he stands, He does not try to cheat and hide it. I won't agree with him on many things but I'll listen to him as I know He believes in it and will honestly tell me why. If more people had faith in what they believed in and did not need to use trickery to achieve it we would be better off.

[CUnknown]

Whatever you think of his policies, they are far, far, better than Obama's or McCain's. No war, no Fed, civil liberties protected... damn... we could do a hell of a lot worse than Kucinich.

[nbhadja]

Elwar, Let me sum up your objections with Kucinich into categories and deal with them:


He's pro-gun control
Pro-government health care
Pro-environment and regulation of CO2
Wants to balance the budget through tax increases
Anti-privatization
Pro-union


First, let me say that being pro-union is not an anti-liberty position. People have the right to free association.

As far as environmental and energy issues go, he believes in man-caused global warming. Regardless of how pro-liberty you are, if you hold this belief, you will be in support of certain government interventions and international treaties to limit CO2 emissions. The cognitive dissonance that would be generated by being both pro-liberty and pro-government interventions such as carbon taxation is the prime reason why most people on this board do not believe in man-caused, CO2-based global warming. It has nothing to do with the science of global warming, which is sound. My point is that being pro-environment and pro-carbon taxation does not make you anti-liberty, necessarily. All it means is that you'll have to deal with some cognitive dissonance.

Let's talk about government health care. I don't mean to start an argument, but given the case of France, England, Canada, etc... all countries that have government health care that is far better than the health care we currently have in the US... please cut him some slack on that one. There are good reasons to believe that a single-payer system is superior to the system we have now.

As far as gun control, taxation, and anti-privatization positions Kucinich holds... well, sure. He's a socialist, lol. But, I believe these positions are balanced by the positions he shares with us:


Kucinich is anti-NAFTA and WTO.
He wants to audit and reign in the Fed.
He wants to end the wars.
He wants to restore habeas corpus, end domestic spying.
He wants to end the government/corporate merger (aka Fascism)


He agrees with us on a lot of important stuff. Compare that to most people in either party who agree with us on basically nothing. Kucinich is an ally, plain and simple.

Government intervention is what killed our health care system and you want the government to have more control???

That's like sticking the knife deeper into your hearth.

Free market health care system>>>>> government run trash health care system.

[messana]

Sure a lot of people hate some of Kucinich's policies so I guess it's better not to support him and let the 'other guy' win.

[klamath]

In the last election I made up my mind not to vote for anyone unless they had at least 70 percent voting record in accord with RP's. I threw out a lot of Republicans because they fell between 50% and 69% on their voting record. Dennis Kucinich falls a 46%. I willl applaud Dennis for his good votes as I will applaud anyone else that votes good, however I don't understand how anyone thinks Dennis should be a leader in a liberty movement.
I did not vote for my congressmen because he voted for the bailout and only had a RP rating of 56% but I believe he is every bit as honest a Kucinich. I believe he is a decent guy but is wrongheaded and no way evil.

[BenIsForRon]

In the last election I made up my mind not to vote for anyone unless they had at least 70 percent voting record in accord with RP's. I threw out a lot of Republicans because they fell between 50% and 69% on their voting record. Dennis Kucinich falls a 46%. I willl applaud Dennis for his good votes as I will applaud anyone else that votes good, however I don't understand how anyone thinks Dennis should be a leader in a liberty movement.
I did not vote for my congressmen because he voted for the bailout and only had a RP rating of 56% but I believe he is every bit as honest a Kucinich. I believe he is a decent guy but is wrongheaded and no way evil.

So you vote like a robot, good job.

[CUnknown]

No one is saying he is a leader in the liberty movement, are they? No one is going to organize a moneybomb for him or anything. But, don't hate on the man. He is an ally. Hate some of his positions, maybe, but recognize that we need to work with everyone we can to win change, and an enemy of my enemy is my friend.

There aren't many other Congressmen who are better than Kucinich out there, besides Ron Paul, but no one can come close to him. Maybe that just goes to show how pathetic our current crop is, but that's the way it is. We have to work with what we have. Like it or not, Kucinich is our friend on a lot of important things, when very few others are.

[AggieforPaul]

But the point is that they wouldn't help people.
There are only two types of politicians. The kind that realize that the government is the enemy, and the kind who want to wield the power of the empire. Dennis is the second type.

The ring is evil, Frodo. It does not matter what you want to do with it. It's going to have its own way eventually. And I dare say Dennis' eventually would be a lot sooner than most peoples'.

Don't kid yourself, it would help some people. You don't think an expansion of SCHIP would help the 8 year old kid with pre-existing lymphoma whose single mother can't get him approved for private insurance?

[nbhadja]

Don't kid yourself, it would help some people. You don't think an expansion of SCHIP would help the 8 year old kid with pre-existing lymphoma whose single mother can't get him approved for private insurance?

It would harm more people than it would help. A complete free market health care system would help people the most.

[BenIsForRon]

It would harm more people than it would help. A complete free market health care system would help people the most.

Not in the short term. If the kid is sick and we start a health care program that gives him medical attention, he will get better. However, the effectiveness of the health care program 10 and 20 years down the line is another issue.

[AggieforPaul]

Among the non liberty things Thomas Jefferson did, he crossed out all the miracles in his Bible, fucked up the Barbary Pirates without a declaration of war, and engineered the Louisiana Purchase. Not to mention he may have raped a slave.

Shouldn't all the "Ron Paul's way or the highway" folks be condemning him as a tyrant too?

[Elwar]

I took a dump and it does not support the Federal Reserve and it is better than most politicians, why do you not support it? It is our ally!

Kucinich reminds me of the Communist Andrei in "We the Living" (by Ayn Rand), where Kira (the main, individualist character) tells him that she respects him more than all of the others in his party because he fights for it based on principle that he believes in. Even though his principles are misguided.

Kucinich and Ron Paul are similar in that they are both principled men that vote their conscience. Beyond that, they couldn't be more dissimilar.

[Stary Hickory]

Among the non liberty things Thomas Jefferson did, he crossed out all the miracles in his Bible, fucked up the Barbary Pirates without a declaration of war, and engineered the Louisiana Purchase. Not to mention he may have raped a slave.

Shouldn't all the "Ron Paul's way or the highway" folks be condemning him as a tyrant too?

Well the only thing I find problematic that he did was the Louisiana Purchase. The slave rape thing really has no evidence. It's for those seeking to bash him.

[torchbearer]

everyone gets bashed here, even the name sake on rare occasion.

[klamath]

No one is saying he is a leader in the liberty movement, are they? No one is going to organize a moneybomb for him or anything. But, don't hate on the man. He is an ally. Hate some of his positions, maybe, but recognize that we need to work with everyone we can to win change, and an enemy of my enemy is my friend.

There aren't many other Congressmen who are better than Kucinich out there, besides Ron Paul, but no one can come close to him. Maybe that just goes to show how pathetic our current crop is, but that's the way it is. We have to work with what we have. Like it or not, Kucinich is our friend on a lot of important things, when very few others are.

There are a lot of congressmen out there that vote a lot closer to RP than Dennis yet they get slammed bad on these boards.

[fisharmor]

Not in the short term. If the kid is sick and we start a health care program that gives him medical attention, he will get better. However, the effectiveness of the health care program 10 and 20 years down the line is another issue.

For every SCHIP, there are fifty Ronald McDonald Houses.

[klamath]

So you vote like a robot, good job.

No. I don't do the lesser of two evils anymore. (evil meaning politically) I pretty much agree with RP on every issue. If someone doesn't vote with RP 70% of the time I am not going to be happy with them.
Voting like a robot is someone voting for a person that disagrees with RP 54 percent of the time but still does so because it has been said they are honest yet can show no proof that he is anymore honest than any other of the congressmen.

[Krugerrand]

Well the only thing I find problematic that he did was the Louisiana Purchase. The slave rape thing really has no evidence. It's for those seeking to bash him.

I would bet TJ was troubled by the LP too. But, it was just too good a deal to pass up.

[CUnknown]

There are a lot of congressmen out there that vote a lot closer to RP than Dennis yet they get slammed bad on these boards.

I honestly don't think this is the best way to judge people. People's reasons why they vote certain ways are at least as important. For example, I bet you don't give Kucinich much cred for voting against Cap and Trade, because his reasons were "It wasn't strong enough."

Even over a long period of time, % of voting similarity to Ron Paul is not a great judge of a Congressman, imo. This is especially true for left-leaning liberty types like myself. Ron Paul is a special case. I might hate people who vote with even 80%+ similarity to Ron Paul, even, because the times they stray are on things like the war, or on torture, or something similar. These things are absolutely critical for me, and Kucinich votes the right way on them.

The fact is, if Ron Paul was pro-war, I wouldn't be on this board right now. I wouldn't even know who he was, probably. I'd be the left-wing socialist liberal you guys love to hate, and we'd have nothing in common politically.

[Andrew-Austin]

If you had to paint him with one broad brush, looking at his views on all matters, it would be foolish to call him an ally. He probably just wants to move the Federal Reserve more in to the category of 'publicly owned and managed' as if that would make any fucking difference. Just for the sake of clarity and precision, call him an ally in regards to specific topics such as auditing the Fed.

[Steeleye]

Why isn't this thread dead yet?

[FSP-Rebel]

Why isn't this thread dead yet?
Yeah, I'm tired of hearing Kucinich's name round here.

[gls]

Sure a lot of people hate some of Kucinich's policies so I guess it's better not to support him and let the 'other guy' win.

I agree with this statement if the 'other guy' values liberty more than Kucinich (which isn't difficult).

[Steeleye]

Yeah, I'm tired of hearing Kucinich's name round here.

I'm going to chalk it up to socialist libertarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism), if you can comprehend that oxymoron.

[klamath]

I honestly don't think this is the best way to judge people. People's reasons why they vote certain ways are at least as important. For example, I bet you don't give Kucinich much cred for voting against Cap and Trade, because his reasons were "It wasn't strong enough."

Even over a long period of time, % of voting similarity to Ron Paul is not a great judge of a Congressman, imo. This is especially true for left-leaning liberty types like myself. Ron Paul is a special case. I might hate people who vote with even 80%+ similarity to Ron Paul, even, because the times they stray are on things like the war, or on torture, or something similar. These things are absolutely critical for me, and Kucinich votes the right way on them.

The fact is, if Ron Paul was pro-war, I wouldn't be on this board right now. I wouldn't even know who he was, probably. I'd be the left-wing socialist liberal you guys love to hate, and we'd have nothing in common politically.

That's fair enough I understand where you are coming from. I probably would disagree with you politically a lot but I respect your opinion even though personally I would probably vote Palin over Kucinich if I was forced into voting between the two.

[torchbearer]

When people bring up the Louisiana Purchase- they fail to see that it is constitutional to acquire land through treaty.
If we could declare war on france constitutionally to conquer the land, then we could, by treaty, acquire it through peaceful means.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Dennis Kucinich is an admitted socialist. Why can't ya'll understand that? He is FAR FARRRR left. So, he and Ron Paul agreed on ONE issue...that doesn't put him in the Ron Paul camp. tones

[BenIsForRon]

I really hope all of you pull your heads out of your asses before 2010. Paul called Kucinich a friend, and I think anyone else who is anti-police state and anti-war should be our friend too. It takes time to change the ideologies of others, and in the meantime we have to work together on the most important stuff.

[klamath]

I really hope all of you pull your heads out of your asses before 2010. Paul called Kucinich a friend, and I think anyone else who is anti-police state and anti-war should be our friend too. It takes time to change the ideologies of others, and in the meantime we have to work together on the most important stuff.
Sorry but sociallism is a police state. Let someone refuse to go along with his socialist policies and it won't be a fuzzy little bunny coming to your door to gently tell you to abide by the regulations and taxes, it will be an armed uniform.

[BenIsForRon]

I agree with you, but you gotta understand, this is the Campaign for Liberty. When you campaign, you try to make friends. In other words, if you ever go door to door for a candidate, I hope you don't sound anything like you sound in this thread.

[klamath]

I agree with you, but you gotta understand, this is the Campaign for Liberty. When you campaign, you try to make friends. In other words, if you ever go door to door for a candidate, I hope you don't sound anything like you sound in this thread.

I agree with you that it is an issues campaign and you should always work with people on the issues you agree on and try not to make personal enemies.

I chalenge you to post this same thing in the "I hate Sarah Palin thread". IF you truely believe this way you will, if not you are just a Kucinich partisan. Saying you hate someone sure isn't making friends.

[jmdrake]

I'd take Dennis Kucinich over some of the people who spoke at the last "tea party" I went to. In the opening prayer one the speaker ended with "And help us to support Israel from where prophecy will be fulfilled and our salvation will be assured". :rolleyes: And here I was thinking that the Christian belief is that Jesus already settled that salvation thing. Oh and what about the fact that Newt "I'll cut a global warming commercial with Nancy Pelosi" Gingrich has been cozying up to the tea parties? We don't slam these republican traitors like we should because we're trying to gain influence in the party. So instead we (some of us) slam people like Kucinich who have been with us more than against us. Don't forget that Ron Paul supported Cynthia McKinney and Ralph Nader for president last year before Bob Barr forced his had and he gave a single endorsement to Chuck Baldwin. Had Kucinich ran as an independent he would have most likely received Dr. Paul's endorsement too. After all his ideas are far off McKinney's.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[pcosmar]

Well I'm tired of people here pushing socialism and socialist policies, but it is a topic of discussion.
Don't like the bashing? Don't bring it up. :cool:

[jmdrake]

I agree with you that it is an issues campaign and you should always work with people on the issue you agree on try not to make personal enemies.

I chalenge you to post this same thing in the "I hate Sarah Palin thread". IF you truely believe this way you will, if not you are just a Kucinich partisan. Saying you hate someone sure isn't making friends.

I'm curious. What are Palin's positions that line up with Paul's? I know Kucinich lines up with Paul on:

1) Steady opposition to the Iraq war
2) Opposition to the Patriot Act
3) Opposition to the department of homeland inSecurity
4) Opposition to the federal reserve
5) Opposition to warrantless wiretapping
6) Opposition to the bush bailout
7) Opposition to the obama bailouts

I'm guessing Palin and Paul line up on abortion and gun control. Anything else? Is Palin willing to stand up against her party on the bailouts the way Kucinich has been willing to stand up against his? Oh...I forgot. The republicans are against bailouts....now that they're out of power.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

Well I'm tired of people here pushing socialism and socialist policies, but it is a topic of discussion.
Don't like the bashing? Don't bring it up. :cool:

Who's pushing socialism and socialist policies? I'm certainly not. I don't think Ron Paul was either when he endorsed McKinney. Do you enjoy building up straw men and knocking them down? :rolleyes:

[BenIsForRon]

I chalenge you to post this same thing in the "I hate Sarah Palin thread". IF you truely believe this way you will, if not you are just a Kucinich partisan. Saying you hate someone sure isn't making friends.

Well, I guess that's a good point. I would NEVER vote for Palin. I would totally vote for Kucinich if he was running against an establishment candidate though. I hope most people on these forums would agree with me, and see that issues like civil liberties and war trump deregulation, especially in the current situation. I fear that I'm probably wrong. His stance on guns is the hardest thing for me to swallow too, but you've got to look at the whole picture.

[Natalie]

I liked Dennis Kucinich until I saw him openly endorse Obama at the DNC. *shudders*

[Pericles]

I liked Dennis Kucinich until I saw him openly endorse Obama at the DNC. *shudders*

+1 We should work with those who share our positions on issues, but that does not mean we ally with people, but work issue by issue with those who share that particular goal. On the next vote we may very well be on opposite sides. It is not personal, and one of the poisonous aspects of current politics is to make every issue "personal".

[jmdrake]

I liked Dennis Kucinich until I saw him openly endorse Obama at the DNC. *shudders*

To me that just shows DK is trying to maintain his political viability. By the DNC Obama had already locked up the nomination and most of DK's supporters can't see beyond the 2 party oligopoly. He's still opposing Obama on some very key issues. And yes he and Obama do agree on some things that I really don't like.

But I'm still trying to figure out why Bob Barr endorsed Obama's gun grabbing attorney general. Barr's political viability is already shot, so what's his excuse?

[BenIsForRon]

I liked Dennis Kucinich until I saw him openly endorse Obama at the DNC. *shudders*

You know Ron Paul is virtually the only congressman who doesn't fall back in line like that, right? Even good guys like Walter Jones and Jeff Flake supported their party when the election came around.

[Elwar]

What's with the bashing of Obama? He's for Hope and Change just like Ron Paul...and at one point in time he didn't like the Patriot Act.

Oh ya, and why hate on Bush? He did give us tax cuts which are in line with Ron Paul's goal to get rid of taxes.

I'm tired of people bashing politicians who are destroying the country.

And why is Hitler considered a bad person here? He changed monetary policy in his country.

And Stalin did a lot to end poor people in his country.

[pcosmar]

Who's pushing socialism and socialist policies? I'm certainly not. I don't think Ron Paul was either when he endorsed McKinney. Do you enjoy building up straw men and knocking them down? :rolleyes:

I did not mention you, and was not referring to you specifically.
There have been threads promoting Eugenics, Promoting Socialized Health Care, Promoting One World Government. etc.
Ron Paul works with Kucinich on issues where they are in agreement. Period.
This is not and never was the Dennis Kucinich Forum.
I appreciate any that are working to preserve Liberty. And will oppose any that are not.
I don't hate Dennis Kucinich, but I don't support him either. He has many positions that are in total opposition.

[klamath]

I'm curious. What are Palin's positions that line up with Paul's? I know Kucinich lines up with Paul on:

1) Steady opposition to the Iraq war
2) Opposition to the Patriot Act
3) Opposition to the department of homeland inSecurity
4) Opposition to the federal reserve
5) Opposition to warrantless wiretapping
6) Opposition to the bush bailout
7) Opposition to the obama bailouts

I'm guessing Palin and Paul line up on abortion and gun control. Anything else? Is Palin willing to stand up against her party on the bailouts the way Kucinich has been willing to stand up against his? Oh...I forgot. The republicans are against bailouts....now that they're out of power.

Regards,

John M. Drake

You might want to go back and and look at what party as a whole voted against Bush's bailouts as well as Obamas.

The point of my post is if you truely want to work with people on the issues you agree with them on and don't want to alienate them by being too harsh then be consistent, what is good for Kucinich is good for Palin.

If you really want to know how much people agree with RP take a look through this.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/files/Freedom_Index_111-1.pdf

[jmdrake]

You might want to go back and and look at what party as a whole voted against Bush's bailouts as well as Obamas.

The point of my post is if you truely want to work with people on the issues you agree with them on and don't want to alienate them by being too harsh then be consistent, what is good for Kucinich is good for Palin.

If you really want to know how much people agree with RP take a look through this.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/files/Freedom_Index_111-1.pdf

Oh I'm aware that a lot of the GOP voted against the bush bailout. But the GOP leadership largely fell in line. Both of my GOP senators voted for it. Everytime I turn around and get a call from some GOP "leader" asking for my support on some issue I look up how they voted on the bailout. So far 100% of them did. I don't know why these jokers are the ones who keep getting pushed to the front.

As for Kucinich vs Palin, the link you gave didn't mention Palin at all so it's of no use. I haven't been bashing Palin, but I've not see her be the least bit courageous on anything. Sure she was governor and didn't have to vote on the bailout or the Patriot Act or any of that stuff, but she could have used her media time to say "You know what? This bailout is crap and that's something that I disagree with John McCain on".

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

I did not mention you, and was not referring to you specifically.
There have been threads promoting Eugenics, Promoting Socialized Health Care, Promoting One World Government. etc.
Ron Paul works with Kucinich on issues where they are in agreement. Period.
This is not and never was the Dennis Kucinich Forum.
I appreciate any that are working to preserve Liberty. And will oppose any that are not.
I don't hate Dennis Kucinich, but I don't support him either. He has many positions that are in total opposition.

Oh. Sorry. I've been in and out a lot lately and missed those threads. :p Someone supporting eugenics, socialized health care or one world government doesn't belong here.

[InterestedParticipant]

Have you ever met the little guy? Spoken to him? Heard him speak in person?

[klamath]

Oh I'm aware that a lot of the GOP voted against the bush bailout. But the GOP leadership largely fell in line. Both of my GOP senators voted for it. Everytime I turn around and get a call from some GOP "leader" asking for my support on some issue I look up how they voted on the bailout. So far 100% of them did. I don't know why these jokers are the ones who keep getting pushed to the front.

As for Kucinich vs Palin, the link you gave didn't mention Palin at all so it's of no use. I haven't been bashing Palin, but I've not see her be the least bit courageous on anything. Sure she was governor and didn't have to vote on the bailout or the Patriot Act or any of that stuff, but she could have used her media time to say "You know what? This bailout is crap and that's something that I disagree with John McCain on".

Regards,

John M. Drake

Actually I am not defending Palin and I didn't post that link as a reference for her.
I posted it as a reference as to how the congress votes and who votes more of the same way as RP.

[pcosmar]

Have you ever met the little guy? Spoken to him? Heard him speak in person?

Nope.
But I have met Ron Paul and heard him speak.
And I come here.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/libertyforestlogo2.png

Though I also can look at Dennis Kucinich's web page to see where he stands.
http://kucinich.house.gov/
The Assault Weapons Ban

Congressman Kucinich is an advocate for the Assault Weapons Ban. He believes the ban should not have been allowed to expire in the 108th Congress. During the 110th Congress, he was a cosponsor of legislation that would reauthorize the assault weapons ban.

Social Welfare

Congressman Kucinich has actively sought to make reforms to social welfare programs that would reduce poverty, help families to obtain and keep jobs with a livable wage.

Summary of Department of Peace and Nonviolence Legislation

Legislation introduced by Congressman Dennis Kucinich to create a Department of Peace and Nonviolence includes the following:

* Establish a cabinet-level department in the executive branch of the Federal Government dedicated to peacemaking and the study of conditions that are conducive to both domestic and international peace.

* Headed by a Secretary of Peace and Nonviolence, appointed by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate.

* The mission of the Department shall: hold peace as an organizing principle; endeavor to promote justice and democratic principles to expand human rights; strengthen nonmilitary means of peacemaking; promote the development of human potential; work to create peace, prevent violence, divert from armed conflict and develop new structures in nonviolent dispute resolution; and take a proactive, strategic approach in the development of policies that promote national and international conflict prevention, nonviolent intervention, mediation, peaceful resolution of conflict and structured mediation of conflict.

* The Department will create and establish a Peace Academy, modeled after the military service academies, which will provide a 4 year concentration in peace education. Graduates will be required to serve 5 years in public service in programs dedicated to domestic or international nonviolent conflict resolution.

* The principal officers of the Department, in addition to the Secretary of Peace and Nonviolence will include; the Under Secretary of Peace and Nonviolence; the Assistant Secretary for Peace Education and Training; the Assistant Secretary for Domestic Peace Activities, the Assistant Secretary for International Peace Activities; the Assistant Secretary for Technology for Peace; the Assistant Secretary for Arms Control and Disarmament; the Assistant Secretary for Peaceful Coexistence and Nonviolent Conflict Resolution; the Assistant Secretary for Human and Economic Rights; and a General Counsel.

* The first day of each year, January 1st will be designated as Peace Day in the United States and all citizens should be encouraged to observe and celebrate the blessings of peace and endeavor to create peace in the coming year


The No Child Left Behind Act and IDEA

Congressman Kucinich has established a strong record of pushing for the full funding of all education initiatives passed by the federal government. Congressman Kucinich has been especially critical of funding shortfalls in the No Child Left Behind Act (NCLB). As of 2008, NCLB has been underfunded by 46%-- a staggering $55 billion. When federal education programs are underfunded, states and school districts have to make up this shortfall while living up to the new mandates contained in the bill.


There is a lot more there. Compare with Ron Paul. They are Polar Opposites.

[Natalie]

To me that just shows DK is trying to maintain his political viability.

That could be true. But his whole speech is basically like "Republicans are bad, Democrats are good." Lame. I facepalmed during this whole speech.

He makes some good points, but he's still a Socialist.

YouTube - Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) Speaks to the DNC (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv0smG7ptcM)

[TruthisTreason]

but he's still a Socialist.



+1

[jmdrake]

That could be true. But his whole speech is basically like "Republicans are bad, Democrats are good." Lame. I facepalmed during this whole speech.


And unfortunately some of the lamers that were allowed to speak at the last "tea party" I went to were basically saying "Democrats bad, Republicans good". At least DK was speaking at a democratic event. The tea parties are supposed to be non-partisan.



He makes some good points, but he's still a Socialist.


At this point that's just a label and not a very enlightening one. The republicrats pigeonhole us into our groups and try to get us not to think. It's really about bigger government versus smaller government. Many so called "conservative republicans" have pushed for much bigger government than DK, they've just done it for things that "conservatives" usually support. (Homeland inSecurity. unPatriot Acts. Witless wiretapping. etc.) DK is calling for an end to the federal reserve. If that were to happen the size of the federal government would naturally shrink. We can quibble about how much of that shrinking budget goes to what programs later.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[BenIsForRon]

Many so called "conservative republicans" have pushed for much bigger government than DK, they've just done it for things that "conservatives" usually support. (Homeland inSecurity. unPatriot Acts. Witless wiretapping. etc.) DK is calling for an end to the federal reserve. If that were to happen the size of the federal government would naturally shrink. We can quibble about how much of that shrinking budget goes to what programs later.

+1

Dennis just wants to copy the Sweden model. In a situation like that, we could solely worry about shrinking government without worrying about the apocalypse around the corner.

[jmdrake]

Nope.
Though I also can look at Dennis Kucinich's web page to see where he stands.
http://kucinich.house.gov/
The Assault Weapons Ban


Old news.



Social Welfare

Congressman Kucinich has actively sought to make reforms to social welfare programs that would reduce poverty, help families to obtain and keep jobs with a livable wage.


That tells you nothing. Congressman Paul also actively supports reforms to social welfare that would reduce poverty and help families to obtain and keep jobs with a livable wage. Oh I'm sure he would go about it in a totally different way than Kucinich, but that doesn't mean the stated goal is a bad one.



Summary of Department of Peace and Nonviolence Legislation

Legislation introduced by Congressman Dennis Kucinich to create a Department of Peace and Nonviolence includes the following:

* Establish a cabinet-level department in the executive branch of the Federal Government dedicated to peacemaking and the study of conditions that are conducive to both domestic and international peace.

* Headed by a Secretary of Peace and Nonviolence, appointed by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate.

* The mission of the Department shall: hold peace as an organizing principle; endeavor to promote justice and democratic principles to expand human rights; strengthen nonmilitary means of peacemaking; promote the development of human potential; work to create peace, prevent violence, divert from armed conflict and develop new structures in nonviolent dispute resolution; and take a proactive, strategic approach in the development of policies that promote national and international conflict prevention, nonviolent intervention, mediation, peaceful resolution of conflict and structured mediation of conflict.

* The Department will create and establish a Peace Academy, modeled after the military service academies, which will provide a 4 year concentration in peace education. Graduates will be required to serve 5 years in public service in programs dedicated to domestic or international nonviolent conflict resolution.

* The principal officers of the Department, in addition to the Secretary of Peace and Nonviolence will include; the Under Secretary of Peace and Nonviolence; the Assistant Secretary for Peace Education and Training; the Assistant Secretary for Domestic Peace Activities, the Assistant Secretary for International Peace Activities; the Assistant Secretary for Technology for Peace; the Assistant Secretary for Arms Control and Disarmament; the Assistant Secretary for Peaceful Coexistence and Nonviolent Conflict Resolution; the Assistant Secretary for Human and Economic Rights; and a General Counsel.

* The first day of each year, January 1st will be designated as Peace Day in the United States and all citizens should be encouraged to observe and celebrate the blessings of peace and endeavor to create peace in the coming year


Friendship and trade with all and entangling alliances with none. While I wouldn't support a full department, there needs to be some counterbalance to the drums of war that get beat throughout the government during successive administrations. One of the biggest threats to both peace and economic prosperity is the military industrial complex and their huge lobbying apparatus. Maybe it could be put in check with a few strokes of a Paulian executive order. Maybe it would be a bigger undertaking.




The No Child Left Behind Act and IDEA

Congressman Kucinich has established a strong record of pushing for the full funding of all education initiatives passed by the federal government. Congressman Kucinich has been especially critical of funding shortfalls in the No Child Left Behind Act (NCLB). As of 2008, NCLB has been underfunded by 46%-- a staggering $55 billion. When federal education programs are underfunded, states and school districts have to make up this shortfall while living up to the new mandates contained in the bill.


Do you agree with unfunded mandates? (Dr. Paul doesn't). I would scrap NCLB, but if it is allowed to continue to exist it can't be at the expense of the budgets of legislatures that didn't pass it.



There is a lot more there. Compare with Ron Paul. They are Polar Opposites.

The "polar opposite" of Dr. Paul would be against auditing the fed, for the Iraq war, for the unPatriot Act and Homeland inSecurity, for warrantless wiretapping, for the bailouts past, present and future etc. DK and RP don't agree on everything but calling them "polar opposites" is more than a bit of a stretch.

Again I bring up the Ron Paul endorsement of Cynthia McKinney. She and DK agree on just about everything. Do you think Dr. Paul would endorse his "polar opposite" in her presidential bid?

Really, the DK bashing is a waste of time. What do you hope to accomplish? Yes I disagree with DK on some issues. I disagree with Cynthia McKinney on a few issues. Heck, I disagree with RP on an issue or two. So? DK has shown the intestinal fortitude to go against his party on several importing key issues including the Bush/Obama bailouts. He's been in the forefront of dems opposing the fed. (In case you forgot, the dems are in the majority. Some will HAVE to break ranks if the audit-the-fed bill is to pass.)

Here's the bottom line. The quickest way to get our country back is to sweep everybody out of office that voted for the bailout. 90% of the American people were against it and it passed anyway. The bailouts and the fed are THE issues we have to fight the next few years. If we win we get our country back. If we don't we won't. It's that simple. Both wings of the Republicrat party will "gently spar" (but never actually win a knockout victory) on issues like abortion and gun control and on occasion switch sides. (Case in point Bush pushing the Supreme Court to adopt the position that foreign countries should be able to strip Americans of their gun rights, or Obama's 180 on gay marriage). At the end of the day most of them march lock step on issues like the bailouts, NAFTA etc. When one congressman breaks ranks on the congressional version of the "Bataan death march" that's to be applauded. We have enough traitors on both sides of the aisle to bash.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

Actually I am not defending Palin and I didn't post that link as a reference for her.
I posted it as a reference as to how the congress votes and who votes more of the same way as RP.

I'm failing to see your point. You made a reference to the Palin thread and talked about supporting people who supported us on the issues. DK has done that on certain issues that are very important to me. I haven't seen Palin do that. If she has GREAT! And yes I know there are members of the GOP that have supported some of those key issues. I'm not bashing them for doing that either.

[mstrmac1]

This man is an ally, not an enemy. He exposed the war in Iraq as a fraud on day one, he stands up for civil liberties, he wants to end fractional reserve banking and put the Fed under the control of the Treasury and under the oversight of Congress.

He has some positions that piss me off sure, but so does Ron Paul tbh. Kucinich may want to spend more than most people here are comfortable with, but at least he wants to spend it on things that would actually help people.

He has done such a great job for the city of cleveland... Here is a video!

YouTube - HASTILY MADE CLEVELAND TOURISM VIDEO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmLA5TqbIY&feature=related)

[Danke]

DK voted for the "Hate Crime" bill. There goes the 1st Amendment. Be afraid, be very afraid.

[BenIsForRon]

He has done such a great job for the city of cleveland... Here is a video!

Yeah, I'm sure the sorry condition of Cleveland has nothing to do with any factors besides their congressman...

[InterestedParticipant]

Nope.
But I have met Ron Paul and heard him speak.
Dennis is very unimpressive in person. Comes off as a total politician... a tool. There is nothing genuine in that soul.

Well, that's my read.

Kinda like Howard Dean... short, wet handshake, unimpressive, not smart.... you kinda walk away scratching your head wondering how they get into these positions.

[Steeleye]

Yeah, I'm sure the sorry condition of Cleveland has nothing to do with any factors besides their congressman...

He was mayor of Cleveland in the late '70s. And why is this thread not dead yet?

[BenIsForRon]

He was mayor of Cleveland in the late '70s.

Forgot about that. It seems that many people thought he was a good mayor though, especially in hindsight. I think Cleveland has gone to shit for many of the same reasons Detroit has though.