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MRoCkEd
07-04-2009, 11:28 PM
So I decided to go to the July 4th Tea Party at the capitol in CT. The event was pretty interesting. It was set up by a libertarian and the speakers included several libertarians as well as Peter Schiff himself as the keynote.

One of the earlier speakers started talking about debt, cap and trade, universal healthcare, and was receiving applause from the audience. And then he started talking about the War on Drugs.

He spoke about the large incarceration rate and how most of them are for drug offenders. He suggested rethinking our drug policy. The crowd did not like this. They started booing, hissing, and shouting at him. "How about we execute the drug offenders!" That one was particularly disturbing. As the crowd kept booing, and myself and maybe one other person were clapping, he continued with a slight grin on his face until he was finished.

The next speaker decided to bring up foreign policy. "We can't be the world's policeman!" This started back up the booing. "By wasting our resources in far off wars we are less safe, and right where the terrorists want us." The crowd was booing and even throwing stuff. They started chanting "USA, USA!".

Several in the audience were also upset when a speaker talked negatively about Bush. "This is not a bash Bush rally!" "He was spending money keeping us safe!"

The crowd decreased in size quite significantly by the time Peter Schiff spoke which was disappointing.

Yeah..


Update:
Here's some video of the crowd after a libertarian candidate criticized Bush for increasing spending and suggested we stop being the policemen of the world:

YouTube - Anti-Tax Guy gets shouted down at Hartford Tea Party! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jnQAZJdHlI)

sevin
07-04-2009, 11:32 PM
:(

Once people have been programmed by the likes of Fox News it is really hard to undo the damage.

Bman
07-04-2009, 11:33 PM
YouTube - Genesis - Land Of Confusion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq7FKO5DlV0)

Don't Tread on Mike
07-04-2009, 11:36 PM
Thats sad to hear. People have a loose screw.

TheConstitutionLives
07-04-2009, 11:45 PM
:(

Once people have been programmed by the likes of Fox News it is really hard to undo the damage.


- Yep!

Golding
07-04-2009, 11:53 PM
Unfortunate. But I'm still optimistic that the seeds are planted in these peoples' minds. It's difficult to compromise opposition to irresponsible spending in one form but not the other. No one can expect to turn neocons overnight, but they do precipitously come around when exposed to the truth. Recoiling reactions like "This is not a bash Bush party" are just reflexes with the Republican vs. Democrat mindset. When they realize that there's more to decision-making than that, they'll come around.

emazur
07-05-2009, 12:00 AM
Being on the verge of depression b/c of big government still hasn't made an impression on these people. They can go to hell

Bman
07-05-2009, 12:06 AM
They can go to hell

They could. I kind of think hell's coming to them.

tonesforjonesbones
07-05-2009, 12:11 AM
THIS is why Glenn Beck has to tread lightly...too bad if he loses most of his audience because of foreign policy issues...he knows they have to be weaned off these neo con ideas....you just can't pull the rug out from under them...or we lose what good work has been done. At least they are thinking about the Constitution...etc. Baby steps. tones

LibertiORDeth
07-05-2009, 12:12 AM
YouTube - Genesis - Land Of Confusion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq7FKO5DlV0)

Cool to hear the original, only had heard the Disturbed version.

Bman
07-05-2009, 12:13 AM
Cool to hear the original, only had heard the Disturbed version.

That versions good to listen to also. Really good job for a cover.

StilesBC
07-05-2009, 12:19 AM
The truth hurts the first time you hear it.

But when they have time to separate the emotions from reality, they will very gradually begin to understand. As common sense grows, those that cling to the old guard like a security blanket will be exposed to yet more perspectives of the same issue. Incrementally the truth will overwhelm previous emotions.

Either that or they'll slowly die off :p

nayjevin
07-05-2009, 12:29 AM
Unfortunate. But I'm still optimistic that the seeds are planted in these peoples' minds. It's difficult to compromise opposition to irresponsible spending in one form but not the other. No one can expect to turn neocons overnight, but they do precipitously come around when exposed to the truth. Recoiling reactions like "This is not a bash Bush party" are just reflexes with the Republican vs. Democrat mindset. When they realize that there's more to decision-making than that, they'll come around.

good post!

tpreitzel
07-05-2009, 12:40 AM
Study the crowds in the movie, the Running Man. The behavior of a group rarely changes. Crowds simply switch allegiance when confronted with the truth, but never without emotional distress. Bigger isn't better when suddenly awakening an indoctrinated group, e.g. a nation of sheep.

TRIGRHAPPY
07-05-2009, 02:00 AM
So I decided to go to the July 4th Tea Party at the capitol in CT. The event was pretty interesting. It was set up by a libertarian and the speakers included several libertarians as well as Peter Schiff himself as the keynote.

One of the earlier speakers started talking about debt, cap and trade, universal healthcare, and was receiving applause from the audience. And then he started talking about the War on Drugs.

He spoke about the large incarceration rate and how most of them are for drug offenders. He suggested rethinking our drug policy. The crowd did not like this. They started booing, hissing, and shouting at him. "How about we execute the drug offenders!" That one was particularly disturbing. As the crowd kept booing, and myself and maybe one other person were clapping, he continued with a slight grin on his face until he was finished.

The next speaker decided to bring up foreign policy. "We can't be the world's policeman!" This started back up the booing. "By wasting our resources in far off wars we are less safe, and right where the terrorists want us." The crowd was booing and even throwing stuff. They started chanting "USA, USA!".

Several in the audience were also upset when a speaker talked negatively about Bush. "This is not a bash Bush rally!" "He was spending money keeping us safe!"

The crowd decreased in size quite significantly by the time Peter Schiff spoke which was disappointing.

Yeah..

That just goes to show you..... Even many people who "think" they want limited government and fiscal responsibility......don't have a clue what it requires to attain it.

Dreamofunity
07-05-2009, 02:42 AM
he continued with a slight grin on his face until he was finished.

While in the face of booing neocons, just smile knowing you're right. That's so awesome.



The crowd decreased in size quite significantly by the time Peter Schiff spoke which was disappointing.


That, not so much.


Do you know if there will be video/audio of Peter's speech soon?

Steeleye
07-05-2009, 02:51 AM
At least this particular tea party wasn't co opted by the neocons and turned into an "R: Good! D: Bad!" circle jerk like the vast majority of the rest were.

specsaregood
07-05-2009, 02:56 AM
Unfortunate. But I'm still optimistic that the seeds are planted in these peoples' minds. It's difficult to compromise opposition to irresponsible spending in one form but not the other. No one can expect to turn neocons overnight, but they do precipitously come around when exposed to the truth. Recoiling reactions like "This is not a bash Bush party" are just reflexes with the Republican vs. Democrat mindset. When they realize that there's more to decision-making than that, they'll come around.

That, plus one could assume that the crowd that didn't leave was liking what they were hearing. You don't have to win them all, just a plurality.

muh_roads
07-05-2009, 03:15 AM
I'm willing to bet this was the final nail in the coffin that convinced Schiff not to run. I'd be discouraged in the face of so many idiots if I were him. He's probably thinking "I have to try and win these guys over? I got better things to do".

LittleLightShining
07-05-2009, 03:22 AM
At least this particular tea party wasn't co opted by the neocons and turned into an "R: Good! D: Bad!" circle jerk like the vast majority of the rest were.
How many did you go to? How do you know the majority were GOP pep rallies?

Steeleye
07-05-2009, 05:10 AM
How many did you go to? How do you know the majority were GOP pep rallies?

I've been lurking around Free Republic too long. Their types have infested a lot of tea parties. They were out in full force at the one in Morristown, NJ. One of the speakers told libertarians to "cut the 'conspiracy' crap." They all got a good laugh at the "dumbass with all the Ron Paul shit" who took offense.

ctiger2
07-05-2009, 07:31 AM
I'm willing to bet this was the final nail in the coffin that convinced Schiff not to run. I'd be discouraged in the face of so many idiots if I were him. He's probably thinking "I have to try and win these guys over? I got better things to do".

Ridiculous. If Schiff's gonna worry about the reactions from a small group of people at a tea party then he shouldn't even bother running. I don't think he cares and will run. He relishes debating & talking to people with contrasting ideas. Here's a couple ideas for Schiff's 2010 campaign slogan: Bring It On : Schiff 2010 or The Truth Hurts : Schiff 2010 or Here Comes The Noise : Schiff 2010

Stary Hickory
07-05-2009, 07:35 AM
The thing to remember is, logic and reason will win over propaganda eventually. Necons/GOP types have defined themselves and committed themselves to the ideas of pro war, pro drug wars, pro interventionism.

No one likes to admit that they are wrong, but just like it was impossible to criticize Bush a year or two ago, now it's sort of accepted that Bush was a giant mistake. People will come around slowly, we need to just keep chipping away at them.

PaulaGem
07-05-2009, 07:45 AM
The thing to remember is, logic and reason will win over propaganda eventually. Necons/GOP types have defined themselves and committed themselves to the ideas of pro war, pro drug wars, pro interventionism.

No one likes to admit that they are wrong, but just like it was impossible to criticize Bush a year or two ago, now it's sort of accepted that Bush was a giant mistake. People will come around slowly, we need to just keep chipping away at them.

They aren't going to come around if there isn't an open, intelligent dialog. Dialog -it means that you have to listen and be willing to make some compromises too. Maybe you should have had a discussion at that tea party instead of a lecture. Perhaps one of the "converted" discussing calmly with one of the "unconverted".

Because of the way I was treated by some of the regulars on here, I would have quit this site a few weeks ago if I hadn't found it a good source of news. I still find many of the political ideas proposed and discussed seriously on here to be absurd. It just ain't ever gonna happen the way some of you want it to.

The anarchism thing, even if it were the perfect solution ( and I DON'T think it is) is too far removed from the current system to implement.

If this board is an example of the way you guys "chip away", you're going after the pyramid with a hammer and a chisel - good luck.

AdamT
07-05-2009, 08:29 AM
We're going to a Tea Party today, and it's being put on by our county CFL. We handed out over 600 flyers for it yesterday at the town's 4th parade. Should be interesting to see how many/who shows up.

nobody's_hero
07-05-2009, 08:32 AM
I hope the smaller crowd which stayed long enough to hear Schiff has a chance to go home and reflect on the possibility that they hadn't really heard both sides of the issue, as presented by the two-party behemoth.

Stary Hickory
07-05-2009, 08:33 AM
They aren't going to come around if there isn't an open, intelligent dialog. Dialog -it means that you have to listen and be willing to make some compromises too. Maybe you should have had a discussion at that tea party instead of a lecture. Perhaps one of the "converted" discussing calmly with one of the "unconverted".

Because of the way I was treated by some of the regulars on here, I would have quit this site a few weeks ago if I hadn't found it a good source of news. I still find many of the political ideas proposed and discussed seriously on here to be absurd. It just ain't ever gonna happen the way some of you want it to.

The anarchism thing, even if it were the perfect solution ( and I DON'T think it is) is too far removed from the current system to implement.

If this board is an example of the way you guys "chip away", you're going after the pyramid with a hammer and a chisel - good luck.

Well you should be careful before you speak, you lop me in with "these guys" and you don't know who I am or my views. There are quite a few types of Libertarian on these boards, and so to simply call this whole forum absurd makes me a bit angry. Especially when toss me in with it.

There are some hardcore cynics, who take crazy views on some issues, but I don't mind, because sometimes....just sometimes.....even the craziest idea is true. It looks like you need to work on tolerance some. Everyone here has the same general goal, some are more cynical, others a little out there, but it's still the same striving for freedom.

PaulaGem
07-05-2009, 09:16 AM
Well you should be careful before you speak, you lop me in with "these guys" and you don't know who I am or my views. There are quite a few types of Libertarian on these boards, and so to simply call this whole forum absurd makes me a bit angry. Especially when toss me in with it.

There are some hardcore cynics, who take crazy views on some issues, but I don't mind, because sometimes....just sometimes.....even the craziest idea is true. It looks like you need to work on tolerance some. Everyone here has the same general goal, some are more cynical, others a little out there, but it's still the same striving for freedom.

I did not call this whole forum absurd. Perhaps you should work on reading skills and avoid the knee-jerk emotional reaction. It seems that you took my "you" to mean you personally. It was not meant that way. The post was generalizing about the forum and the movement as I found it - "you" was aimed at participants in general.

My post:


Originally Posted by PaulaGem View Post
They aren't going to come around if there isn't an open, intelligent dialog. Dialog -it means that you have to listen and be willing to make some compromises too. Maybe you should have had a discussion at that tea party instead of a lecture. Perhaps one of the "converted" discussing calmly with one of the "unconverted".

Because of the way I was treated by some of the regulars on here, I would have quit this site a few weeks ago if I hadn't found it a good source of news. I still find many of the political ideas proposed and discussed seriously on here to be absurd. It just ain't ever gonna happen the way some of you want it to.

The anarchism thing, even if it were the perfect solution ( and I DON'T think it is) is too far removed from the current system to implement.

If this board is an example of the way you guys "chip away", you're going after the pyramid with a hammer and a chisel - good luck.

I tried to indicate that that I wasn't indicting anyone in particular, just the tone of the board as I perceived it. See bold above.

Matt Collins
07-05-2009, 09:30 AM
I explain this to local members of my Republican Party all the time, and they have this horrible look on their face every time I do:


YOU CAN'T BE CONSERVATIVE IF YOU ADVOCATE BIG GOVERNMENT, DOMESTICALLY OR ABROAD!

Matt Collins
07-05-2009, 09:33 AM
These videos will make you feel better hopefully:



YouTube - Gresham Barrett booed at Greenville Tea Party 4/17/09 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJQVNXfKujc&feature=player_embedded)




YouTube - Greenville Tea Party: Booing Gresham Barrett (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsOtJNARdlE&feature=player_embedded)




YouTube - Sen John Cornyn at Austin Tea Party (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i92zmYCd81s)

StilesBC
07-05-2009, 09:45 AM
The anarchism thing, even if it were the perfect solution ( and I DON'T think it is) is too far removed from the current system to implement.



Paula,

I think that is a bit of a misrepresentation of what most anarcho-capitalists believe. It is not something that many of us wish to simply 'implement' overnight. I don't think that is practical or desirable.

What we're saying is that we're going to end up with anarchy in one of two ways: 1) government keeps spending itself into oblivion and it all blows to hell in mere weeks, wiping out any previous obligations made by government and leaving millions with nowhere to turn in retirement or 2) we slowly dismantle the leviathan state, starting with the largest excesses - military adventurism and domestic spying, economic central planning, the IRS, etc, while the obligation systems of Medical and Social Security are grandfathered out beginning with those under 40 (for example) who still have enough time to prepare.

Perhaps it is a bit utopian to believe that government can be trusted to dismantle itself, which is why it may seem like a few on this board are actually 'cheering' for a collapse - they feel it is the only way ("better now than later"). But I still think it can be done with a minimum of suffering by innocents, and I'm pretty sure that is the majority view among anarcho-capitalists on this board.

PaulaGem
07-05-2009, 10:08 AM
Paula,

I think that is a bit of a misrepresentation of what most anarcho-capitalists believe. It is not something that many of us wish to simply 'implement' overnight. I don't think that is practical or desirable.

I did not intend to represent what anarcho-capitalists believe. I intended to represent my perception of them on this board.



What we're saying is that we're going to end up with anarchy in one of two ways: 1) government keeps spending itself into oblivion and it all blows to hell in mere weeks, wiping out any previous obligations made by government and leaving millions with nowhere to turn in retirement or 2) we slowly dismantle the leviathan state, starting with the largest excesses - military adventurism and domestic spying, economic central planning, the IRS, etc, while the obligation systems of Medical and Social Security are grandfathered out beginning with those under 40 (for example) who still have enough time to prepare.

Perhaps it is a bit utopian to believe that government can be trusted to dismantle itself, which is why it may seem like a few on this board are actually 'cheering' for a collapse - they feel it is the only way ("better now than later"). But I still think it can be done with a minimum of suffering by innocents, and I'm pretty sure that is the majority view among anarcho-capitalists on this board.


And how is any of this going to happen with the vote in the state of total compromise?

angelatc
07-05-2009, 10:11 AM
So I decided to go to the July 4th Tea Party at the capitol in CT. The event was pretty interesting. It was set up by a libertarian and the speakers included several libertarians as well as Peter Schiff himself as the keynote.



Big mistake in not delivering the message that people came to hear. The Tea Parties are tax protests.

speciallyblend
07-05-2009, 10:36 AM
well you can blame the gop for brainwashing republicans. the gop will get what it has coming to them. not a dam thing! i hope the gop shrinks to the point that ron paul republicans finally get with lp/cp/tp and form a new platform and let the rest of the gop die like it should!!

specsaregood
07-05-2009, 10:38 AM
Big mistake in not delivering the message that people came to hear. The Tea Parties are tax protests.

So you would have the speakers talk about protesting taxes; but not discuss the big government programs/actions/positions that require said taxes to operate?

speciallyblend
07-05-2009, 10:39 AM
Big mistake in not delivering the message that people came to hear. The Tea Parties are tax protests.

big mistake is thinking you can win over brainwashed neo-con republicans which the party aka gop stands for!!

well the republicans cannot argue over taxes. they have raised taxes in colorado themselves with help of the dems. the fact is the republican party has 0% credibility anymore!!

you can keep talking about whatever issue you want. just try to keep the word republican out of the picture.

i personally hope the gop goes away forever in the near future!

until the gop is against the drug war and for smaller government. they will never earn my vote!! as a republican i will use my vote to keep the gop where they are until they listen!! if they do not listen. then i will use my vote to keep them slipping down the slope!

speciallyblend
07-05-2009, 10:45 AM
So you would have the speakers talk about protesting taxes; but not discuss the big government programs/actions/positions that require said taxes to operate?

the gop is pretty much clueless. i was thinking the samething! how can a republican bitch about taxes ,yet support the failed drug war aka tax on us!!

honestly the gop deserves to be the next whigs!!


we need to start waterboarding republicans!! is it ok to do it?? it is not torture!!

curious could you actually waterboard someone on american soil and not be charged. i mean if they cannot charge bush and republicans why could they charge americans. if we start waterboarding neo-con republicans!!

waterboarding is like going to a waterpark. it is fun!!! sarcasm!!!

we should take most registered republicans to the waterpark!!

MRoCkEd
07-05-2009, 11:49 AM
Update:
Here's some video of the crowd after a libertarian candidate noted that Bush increased spending and suggested we stop being the policemen of the world:

YouTube - Anti-Tax Guy gets shouted down at Hartford Tea Party! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jnQAZJdHlI)

Matt Collins
07-05-2009, 11:54 AM
Update:
Here's some video of the crowd after a libertarian candidate suggested we stop being the policemen of the world:

Where was this?

MRoCkEd
07-05-2009, 11:56 AM
Where was this?
Hartford, Connecticut

MRoCkEd
07-05-2009, 11:59 AM
edit: double post, my bad

Matt Collins
07-05-2009, 12:09 PM
Hartford, ConnecticutNo wonder :rolleyes:

StilesBC
07-05-2009, 12:12 PM
I did not intend to represent what anarcho-capitalists believe. I intended to represent my perception of them on this board.

And I think that perception is wrong.


And how is any of this going to happen with the vote in the state of total compromise?

The realization of the above two options (ie. total collapse, or incremental dismantling). Which is essentially what this board has been doing for 2 years. Warning people about the dangers of continuing down the same path and what will result if we do - and offering a more logical, humane solution.

Just because not everybody is going to agree with us does not give cause to stop or make excessive concessions. The revolutionaries that founded your country only had initial support of about 5% of the population.

Like most Austrians, I am interested in the theoretical foundations of logic. I care not for what appears to be 'doable' in today's political climate. The goal should be to be logically consistent.

angelatc
07-05-2009, 12:16 PM
So you would have the speakers talk about protesting taxes; but not discuss the big government programs/actions/positions that require said taxes to operate?

Yes. I would absolutely strive only to talk about things on the common ground. There's nothing to be gained by sending the audience packing.

How many of those people will go to the next event?

angelatc
07-05-2009, 12:19 PM
Like most Austrians, I am interested in the theoretical foundations of logic. I care not for what appears to be 'doable' in today's political climate. The goal should be to be logically consistent.

Which is ideologically and scholarly admirable, but ignores the reality of winning elections and thus effecting any real change.

We are in agreement (I hope) that most people don't even want to think. We have to lead them gently. If you try to jerk them along, they'll pull back. It's human nature.

It's like this scene in "Back To The Future." They're not ready for that yet, but their kids are gonna love it.


YouTube - Johnny B. Goode - Micheal J. Fox - Back to the Future (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFgI1FaLpGM)

angelatc
07-05-2009, 12:22 PM
big mistake is thinking you can win over brainwashed neo-con republicans which the party aka gop stands for!!



Bigger mistake is thinking you'll win any election without either a GOP or a DNC sticker attached to your candidate.

We don't need to win over the neocons. We need to take control of the party, and draw the moderates back into it.

PaulaGem
07-05-2009, 12:55 PM
And I think that perception is wrong.



The realization of the above two options (ie. total collapse, or incremental dismantling). Which is essentially what this board has been doing for 2 years. Warning people about the dangers of continuing down the same path and what will result if we do - and offering a more logical, humane solution.

Just because not everybody is going to agree with us does not give cause to stop or make excessive concessions. The revolutionaries that founded your country only had initial support of about 5% of the population.

Like most Austrians, I am interested in the theoretical foundations of logic. I care not for what appears to be 'doable' in today's political climate. The goal should be to be logically consistent.

OK- so you are saying we don't need an honest vote to make these changes. If the power isn't going to be in a vote, what is the power base going to be?

ItsTime
07-05-2009, 01:02 PM
I think we need to learn from the mistake of the RP grassroots campaign. We focused too much on the things that divide conservatives (the antiwar/prowar) and not on things we can agree with (smaller government)

StilesBC
07-05-2009, 01:08 PM
Which is ideologically and scholarly admirable, but ignores the reality of winning elections and thus effecting any real change.

We are in agreement (I hope) that most people don't even want to think. We have to lead them gently. If you try to jerk them along, they'll pull back. It's human nature.

It's like this scene in "Back To The Future." They're not ready for that yet, but their kids are gonna love it.

Agree 100%. Up until a year ago, I cringed at even considering myself a 'minarchist'. 5 years ago, I identified most with socialists (Chomsky, etc). It took me a while to understand that every institutional use of force breeds unintended consequences far surpassing the intended reform. And the subsequent insanity of trying to suppress the unintended consequences becoming the intended reform. I hated myself for being such an 'extremist' at first. Thinking back further, the first reflex reaction to hearing these things was to boo, hiss and label as 'loony-toon'. Just how the neocons in the audience reacted.

Slowly but surely logic prevails. It is the natural order. Which is why I'm not all that concerned about "winning elections". I have full faith in human nature (perhaps too much) coming to its senses. I did.

StilesBC
07-05-2009, 01:17 PM
OK- so you are saying we don't need an honest vote to make these changes. If the power isn't going to be in a vote, what is the power base going to be?

Um, you're aware that the US is not a democracy, correct? In order to make the changes many of us are asking for, all your country needs to do is to obey its own law. That can be done tomorrow if enough people believe in it. It does not require a vote.

tpreitzel
07-05-2009, 01:18 PM
Factors like limited time, energy, and opportunity make sheep out of people. The majority of people need leaders to guide them, but their trust in man is always misplaced. Questioning the herd of sheep is one of the better approaches to encourage them to switch allegiance before they're lead over a cliff. Do they know where they're headed? How did they arrive at the present destination? Where do they want to go? What feasible means can be employed to return to greener pastures?

Since I wasn't at this event among hostile sheep, did the speaker start lecturing before questioning the sheep? The shepherd can command (lecture) the herd of sheep, but not an outsider until the sheep switch allegiance. Question the sheep and allow the herd to ultimately decide their fate while they're deftly guided to the desired decision.

nbhadja
07-05-2009, 01:20 PM
OK- so you are saying we don't need an honest vote to make these changes. If the power isn't going to be in a vote, what is the power base going to be?


The US is a republic, not a democracy- built by the founders in such a way that the small minority can defend themselves against the tyranny of the majority.

The thing that is in our favor is that the constitution is libertarian. The founders would puke if they saw the big government the US had today.

If we just followed the constitution, we would have an extremely limited government (or what you call "anarchist").

muh_roads
07-05-2009, 01:25 PM
I think we need to learn from the mistake of the RP grassroots campaign. We focused too much on the things that divide conservatives (the antiwar/prowar) and not on things we can agree with (smaller government)

The problem is the two go hand in hand. You can't reduce government without ending the world police. Fox News has these people so brainwashed they think all of our problems stem from pork spending. Pork accounts for 1% of our spending problems. We're not being honest with ourselves if we talk about wanting smaller government but then giving the military industrial complex a pass. 1 trillion per year goes to this stuff.

nbhadja
07-05-2009, 01:28 PM
They aren't going to come around if there isn't an open, intelligent dialog. Dialog -it means that you have to listen and be willing to make some compromises too. Maybe you should have had a discussion at that tea party instead of a lecture. Perhaps one of the "converted" discussing calmly with one of the "unconverted".

Because of the way I was treated by some of the regulars on here, I would have quit this site a few weeks ago if I hadn't found it a good source of news. I still find many of the political ideas proposed and discussed seriously on here to be absurd. It just ain't ever gonna happen the way some of you want it to.

The anarchism thing, even if it were the perfect solution ( and I DON'T think it is) is too far removed from the current system to implement.

If this board is an example of the way you guys "chip away", you're going after the pyramid with a hammer and a chisel - good luck.

It will be forced to happen. Large government always fails- sooner or later humanity will learn this.
To say it will never happen is wrong.

The fact is that we all want the same things, but just different ways of going at it. This is caused by a incorrect view of history and "news" affecting people's views. I have confidence the revolution will show people the truth.

Look at the progress we have made in the past 2.5 years. Most of the people here were once neocons or neoliberals.

Heck, I used to be a brainwashed neocon.

I supported the Iraqi war, the US military empire, taxes, the UN, forms of gun control, the war on drugs, thought the NWO was a myth etc.

The first time I heard of Ron Paul I thought he was crazy. He talked about getting rid of taxes, ending the war and bringing home all troops, abolishing the FDA, department of education etc.

But in time, I found the truth hard to deny. Facts are Facts. If I can be converted out of the delusional concepts that I was manipulated into believing , then most of the country can.

South Park Fan
07-05-2009, 01:47 PM
I think we need to learn from the mistake of the RP grassroots campaign. We focused too much on the things that divide conservatives (the antiwar/prowar) and not on things we can agree with (smaller government)

Au contraire. If Ron Paul had won the vote of every anti-war Republican, he would have at minimum won the New Hampshire primary and Michigan primary, which would have given him much more publicity and votes.

Matt Collins
07-05-2009, 01:50 PM
Bigger mistake is thinking you'll win any election without either a GOP or a DNC sticker attached to your candidate.

We don't need to win over the neocons. We need to take control of the partyI absolutely agree.

itshappening
07-05-2009, 02:00 PM
this is the problem we face and why our candidates are disadvantaged in primaries because the Republican voter doesn't like to hear about non interventionism, so we're screwed as they vote for the establishment candidate.


for Schiff to make the ballot he has to win over a very narrow group and it's not easy! If anyone can do it Peter can but the establishment guy will be chanting USA ,USA with the crowd...

Liberty Star
07-05-2009, 02:17 PM
So I decided to go to the July 4th Tea Party at the capitol in CT. The event was pretty interesting. It was set up by a libertarian and the speakers included several libertarians as well as Peter Schiff himself as the keynote.


The next speaker decided to bring up foreign policy. "We can't be the world's policeman!" This started back up the booing. "By wasting our resources in far off wars we are less safe, and right where the terrorists want us." The crowd was booing and even throwing stuff. They started chanting "USA, USA!".

Several in the audience were also upset when a speaker talked negatively about Bush. "This is not a bash Bush rally!" "He was spending money keeping us safe!"

The crowd decreased in size quite significantly by the time Peter Schiff spoke which was disappointing.

Yeah..


Update:
Here's some video of the crowd after a libertarian candidate suggested we stop being the policemen of the world:

YouTube - War-loving neocons boo anti-war libertarian at Tea Party (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C81NzuHMFug)

This "USA" chant crowd is a different segment from the crowd that was chanting "succession" on these parties?
In any case, neocons who were booing this man deserve to live under 8 beautiful years of Obama regime. It is very sad that rest of us do not deserve this and would get punished also.

Austin
07-05-2009, 03:02 PM
Hahahha... man.

Chanting USA is akin to saying "Whatever" when someone completely destroys you in an argument or debate.

"We don't have to listen your common sense and logic because we love our country! USA! USA! USA!"

Sickening.

Blueskies
07-05-2009, 03:17 PM
this is the problem we face and why our candidates are disadvantaged in primaries because the Republican voter doesn't like to hear about non interventionism, so we're screwed as they vote for the establishment candidate.


for Schiff to make the ballot he has to win over a very narrow group and it's not easy! If anyone can do it Peter can but the establishment guy will be chanting USA ,USA with the crowd...

Schiff is a smart guy. He will downplay or avoid talking about foreign policy all together.

Schiff will talk about the economy--as he does now--99% of the time.

PaulaGem
07-05-2009, 04:01 PM
Um, you're aware that the US is not a democracy, correct? In order to make the changes many of us are asking for, all your country needs to do is to obey its own law. That can be done tomorrow if enough people believe in it. It does not require a vote.

Um- how do you prove about this change without a vote that sticks? Or do you think believing in it is all it takes ( a la saving Tinkerbell)?

nbhadja
07-05-2009, 04:03 PM
Um- how do you prove about this change without a vote that sticks? Or do you think believing in it is all it takes ( a la saving Tinkerbell)?

It is simple- We follow the constitution. The government is SUPPOSED to follow the constitution anyways.

If we do that, we will have great freedom and a very small government.

PaulaGem
07-05-2009, 04:04 PM
The US is a republic, not a democracy- built by the founders in such a way that the small minority can defend themselves against the tyranny of the majority.

The thing that is in our favor is that the constitution is libertarian. The founders would puke if they saw the big government the US had today.

If we just followed the constitution, we would have an extremely limited government (or what you call "anarchist").

And how do we get a government who now owes its power to corporations and lobbyists and puts their rights before ours to follow the Constitiution?

PaulaGem
07-05-2009, 04:06 PM
It is simple- We follow the constitution. The government is SUPPOSED to follow the constitution anyways.

If we do that, we will have great freedom and a very small government.

Please respond to the post just below yours - same question to you.

catdd
07-05-2009, 04:15 PM
I think we will have to go bankrupt from doing the very things they want.
Obviously there is a mental block there.
If these neocons are still in this much denial why the hell are they complaining about Obama? Other than a few cosmetic differences, it's basically the same agenda.

nbhadja
07-05-2009, 04:30 PM
And how do we get a government who now owes its power to corporations and lobbyists and puts their rights before ours to follow the Constitiution?

By informing people of the truth and converting them from their dormancy.

Unlike fad political trends that are based on image instead of principle (Obama, Bush, Clinton support), real principle based movements do not grow rapidly as the media will always ignore/attack them.

But the growth in these types of movements is permanent. Once you learn the truth, it will forever affect the way you look at politicians. Supporters in this movement, for the most part, know all about a candidate's voting record and form their opinions based on it and will do that for the rest of their lives.

In other movements, they have no clue about what their candidate votes for. They just base their opinion and support off of empty rhetoric that is contradicted by the candidate's very own voting record and slogans like "hope and change, yes we can!" These fake shallow type of movements only last a few years max until the next new "hot" candidate is promoted by the media.

We have real growth and a permanent, not temporary, support base.

Just look at how rapidly Ron Paul's supporters have grown since he announced he was running for president in early 2007.

Ron Paul's audit the fed bill in the late 80's got 13 cosponsors I believe. His current audit the fed bill has 244 cosponsors.

People are starting to listen.

PaulaGem
07-05-2009, 04:44 PM
By informing people of the truth and converting them from their dormancy.

Unlike fad political trends that are based on image instead of principle (Obama, Bush, Clinton support), real principle based movements do not grow rapidly as the media will always ignore/attack them.

But the growth in these types of movements is permanent. Once you learn the truth, it will forever affect the way you look at politicians. Supporters in this movement, for the most part, know all about a candidate's voting record and form their opinions based on it and will do that for the rest of their lives.

In other movements, they have no clue about what their candidate votes for. They just base their opinion and support off of empty rhetoric that is contradicted by the candidate's very own voting record and slogans like "hope and change, yes we can!" These fake shallow type of movements only last a few years max until the next new "hot" candidate is promoted by the media.

We have real growth and a permanent, not temporary, support base.

Just look at how rapidly Ron Paul's supporters have grown since he announced he was running for president in early 2007.

Ron Paul's audit the fed bill in the late 80's got 13 cosponsors I believe. His current audit the fed bill has 244 cosponsors.

People are starting to listen.

But Ron Paul is a politician - without votes he is nothing.

Because of the corruption in voting processes elections can be flipped from outside the polling place with a garage door opener.

How does any of this work if we don't restore the integrity of the vote? "Consent of the governed" doesn't exist anymore unless you consider apathy to be consent.

PreDeadMan
07-05-2009, 04:56 PM
This is a perfect example of people being brainwashed by major media news outlets such as Fox News. It's sad that the neocons are trying to act like they are showing dissent against Obama when there was no dissent under George W. Bush from them. Here is a person speaking at the tea party with beliefs that America shouldn't be the policemen of the world and that we should change our foreign policy. The people drowning him out with the USA chants should chant something else other than the USA because our founders wouldn't be for what they are currently for...(the Patriot Act,unconstitutional wars,expanding our empire,taking away our liberties,making government even bigger little do they realize lol)... these uneducated fools remind me of the childish slogan of larry the cable guy if he was at that rally saying "Git R Done" they'd probably cheer him on that's all these neocons like to hear are little stupid soundbyte politic catch phrases.

catdd
07-05-2009, 05:15 PM
" neocons like to hear are little stupid soundbyte politic catch phrases."

Exactly. They can't stay awake long enough to fathom important matters.

LibForestPaul
07-05-2009, 05:15 PM
Libertarians should focus mostly on economics. When our depression worsens, people will be more receptive. Especially tying in war on drugs, policeman of the world, etc, with our worsening financial crisis.

P.S. Them booing is actually quite good. Walking away is not. Libertarians should learn from this episode.

Charles Wilson
07-05-2009, 05:27 PM
And how do we get a government who now owes its power to corporations and lobbyists and puts their rights before ours to follow the Constitiution?

There are no simple answers but if we keep working on Transparency of the Fed and educate the people on the causes of their finanacial problems we can and will get through to them. Up until the last couple of years the American people were fat, dumb, and happy. Today is vastly different from yesterday as far as the economy is concerned. The more people suffer the more they will listen. Minds change everyday; it is a gradual process that takes time.
Our government is in bed with the big corporations -- that makes our government a party to fascism.

I would bet that most of those folks chanting at the Tea Party in Connecticut have never read the US Constitution. Their actions of shouting down the speaker is a violation of the First Amendment -- freedom of speech -- of the Constitution. Also, I bet a charge of fascism would be fighting words to most of that crowd. I assume many in that crowd were ex-military. The irony here is that they took a sworn oath to protect and obey the very document they never read or understood but are now violating. We must be pragmatic and take on the various issues one at a time until we succeed in winning our cause. Believe it or not, we are making tremendous progress -- people are beginning to wake up.

catdd
07-05-2009, 05:34 PM
"Also, I bet a charge of fascism would be fighting words to most of that crowd."




YouTube - Easy Rider on Freedom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHd6m_cirrU)

american.swan
07-05-2009, 05:36 PM
They aren't going to come around if there isn't an open, intelligent dialog. Dialog -it means that you have to listen and be willing to make some compromises too. Maybe you should have had a discussion at that tea party instead of a lecture. Perhaps one of the "converted" discussing calmly with one of the "unconverted".

Because of the way I was treated by some of the regulars on here, I would have quit this site a few weeks ago if I hadn't found it a good source of news. I still find many of the political ideas proposed and discussed seriously on here to be absurd. It just ain't ever gonna happen the way some of you want it to.

The anarchism thing, even if it were the perfect solution ( and I DON'T think it is) is too far removed from the current system to implement.

If this board is an example of the way you guys "chip away", you're going after the pyramid with a hammer and a chisel - good luck.

VERY good idea!!! HELLO EVERYONE!!! LISTEN to this!!! Have a dialog at the next tea parties!!

StilesBC
07-05-2009, 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by PaulaGem
And how do we get a government who now owes its power to corporations and lobbyists and puts their rights before ours to follow the Constitiution?

As I said, the laws are already there. Disobeying the law is a crime. All it takes are enough people with the will to apply the law as it is written, and the current legislators will not have any choice but to obey it - lest they go to prison.

PaulaGem
07-05-2009, 05:48 PM
As I said, the laws are already there. Disobeying the law is a crime. All it takes are enough people with the will to apply the law as it is written, and the current legislators will not have any choice but to obey it - lest they go to prison.

Quit begging the question - the "people that apply the law" get there by the power of the political machine and the corporations. They don't give a damn about the Constitution or your rights. The only way we can replace these jerks is with a mandate of the people which, to my mind, can only be expressed in honest elections.

PaulaGem
07-05-2009, 05:53 PM
There are no simple answers but if we keep working on Transparency of the Fed and educate the people on the causes of their finanacial problems we can and will get through to them. Up until the last couple of years the American people were fat, dumb, and happy. Today is vastly different from yesterday as far as the economy is concerned. The more people suffer the more they will listen. Minds change everyday; it is a gradual process that takes time.
Our government is in bed with the big corporations -- that makes our government a party to fascism.

I would bet that most of those folks chanting at the Tea Party in Connecticut have never read the US Constitution. Their actions of shouting down the speaker is a violation of the First Amendment -- freedom of speech -- of the Constitution. Also, I bet a charge of fascism would be fighting words to most of that crowd. I assume many in that crowd were ex-military. The irony here is that they took a sworn oath to protect and obey the very document they never read or understood but are now violating. We must be pragmatic and take on the various issues one at a time until we succeed in winning our cause. Believe it or not, we are making tremendous progress -- people are beginning to wake up.

So we are to rely on some sort of ephiphany on the part of the people that now control our government? The vote is broken - we can't vote them out, but if we keep taliking every one will just sort of ... get it??? Then we'll all live happily ever after, sure...

StilesBC
07-05-2009, 06:00 PM
Quit begging the question - the "people that apply the law" get there by the power of the political machine and the corporations. They don't give a damn about the Constitution or your rights. The only way we can replace these jerks is with a mandate of the people which, to my mind, can only be expressed in honest elections.

It is not a matter of whether it can be tolerated to follow the law or not. If it is turned into a debate and voted on, the majority (obamanoids) are liable to suppress the minority (you) and legitimize crime (not following the constitution).

Voting is a formality in this issue. And it cannot be tolerated to be otherwise.

PS - I realize I'm being difficult for the sake of it. But I'm sick of people focusing on "the next big vote" when your country already has the best written law in the world and is simply neglected for no other reason than ignorance.

Eliminate the ignorance and you eliminate the neglect. Simple. If politics and political debates are found to be an effective way to eliminate this ignorance, then fine. But it is just one of many such methods (and I would argue the most difficult).

max
07-05-2009, 06:09 PM
VERY good idea!!! HELLO EVERYONE!!! LISTEN to this!!! Have a dialog at the next tea parties!!

one by one...you may be able to pull some of these neo-con sheep aside and begin the deprogramming process...

but in a crowd....best thing to do is these ass clowns chant and rant until they cool down

PaulaGem
07-05-2009, 06:13 PM
It is not a matter of whether it can be tolerated to follow the law or not. If it is turned into a debate and voted on, the majority (obamanoids) are liable to suppress the minority (you) and legitimize crime (not following the constitution).

Voting is a formality in this issue. And it cannot be tolerated to be otherwise.

PS - I realize I'm being difficult for the sake of it. But I'm sick of people focusing on "the next big vote" when your country already has the best written law in the world and is simply neglected for no other reason than ignorance.

Eliminate the ignorance and you eliminate the neglect. Simple. If politics and political debates are found to be an effective way to eliminate this ignorance, then fine. But it is just one of many such methods (and I would argue the most difficult).

My point is that if well informed patriots become the majority we are still totally screwed under the present system of counting the votes. The "obamanoids" or the "pailinoids" will still win. Personally, in spite of all of the political apathy in this country I still don't believe "we the people" were really stupid enough to elect Bush II. It didn't happen, the results were fake.

We supposedly elected someone who said the Constitution was just a piece of paper.

PaulaGem
07-05-2009, 06:16 PM
It is not a matter of whether it can be tolerated to follow the law or not. If it is turned into a debate and voted on, the majority (obamanoids) are liable to suppress the minority (you) and legitimize crime (not following the constitution).

Voting is a formality in this issue. And it cannot be tolerated to be otherwise.

PS - I realize I'm being difficult for the sake of it. But I'm sick of people focusing on "the next big vote" when your country already has the best written law in the world and is simply neglected for no other reason than ignorance.

Eliminate the ignorance and you eliminate the neglect. Simple. If politics and political debates are found to be an effective way to eliminate this ignorance, then fine. But it is just one of many such methods (and I would argue the most difficult).

Hold the phone - if it aint' t politics and the vote, it isn't Constitutional. What are you proposing?

StilesBC
07-05-2009, 06:40 PM
Hold the phone - if it aint' t politics and the vote, it isn't Constitutional. What are you proposing?

Continuing to do what everyone on this board is doing.

Chieftain1776
07-05-2009, 08:16 PM
" neocons like to hear are little stupid soundbyte politic catch phrases."

Exactly. They can't stay awake long enough to fathom important matters.

"Since delusional political beliefs are free, the voter consumes until he reaches his “satiation point,” believing whatever makes him feel best. When a person puts on his voting hat, he does not have to give up practical efficacy in exchange for self-image, because he has no practical efficacy to give up in the first place. [Original Emphasis]" Bryan Caplan, Myth of the Rational Voter

or another description of "rational irrationality": (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_irrationality)

"A voter has very small chance of influencing policy. Therefore, the vote he casts is of little consequence to him. There is no incentive for a voter to invest time and energy analyzing the consequences of a policy. However, a voter derives some benefits from voting. It allows him to signal the kind of person he is, who he associates with. If there are no consequences in being mistaken about the effect of a policy, it becomes "rational" to hold the most pleasant opinion, or the one most conducive to socialization."

Read the book! (http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Rational-Voter-Democracies-Policies/dp/0691129428/lewrockwell)

PaulaGem
07-05-2009, 09:50 PM
Continuing to do what everyone on this board is doing.

Oh, running yer chops and not getting anything accomplished....

LibertyEagle
07-05-2009, 10:05 PM
We supposedly elected someone who said the Constitution was just a piece of paper.

Actually, he didn't actually say that; he just acted like it.

PaulaGem
07-05-2009, 10:30 PM
Actually, he didn't actually say that; he just acted like it.

I researched that one again - apparently the source was "whitehouse insiders", so it can't be proven or disproven. This is a pretty common source for D.C. journalists. It's how Watergate started.

While searching this I found this Youtube - more condemning than the story. Comment at 5:50 is really important.

YouTube - "The Constitution is just a piece of paper" - G.W. Bush (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmc60JmaLbE)

tpreitzel
07-05-2009, 10:40 PM
I researched that one again - apparently the source was "whitehouse insiders", so it can't be proven or disproven. This is a pretty common source for D.C. journalists. It's how Watergate started.

While searching this I found this Youtube - more condemning than the story. Comment at 5:50 is really important.
[/url]

The original article was written by the editor, Doug Thompson, of www.Capitolhillblue.com. I used to be a member of their forums, ReaderRant, * about a decade ago. I still love their slogan, "Because nobody's life, liberty or property is safe while Congress is in session or the White House is occupied". ;)

* Skyhawk is STILL there! ;)

nbhadja
07-05-2009, 11:26 PM
My point is that if well informed patriots become the majority we are still totally screwed under the present system of counting the votes. The "obamanoids" or the "pailinoids" will still win. Personally, in spite of all of the political apathy in this country I still don't believe "we the people" were really stupid enough to elect Bush II. It didn't happen, the results were fake.

We supposedly elected someone who said the Constitution was just a piece of paper.

That is not true at all. If the majority become well informed Patriots, the government will have to listen to the people and follow the constitution.

If say 60% of America were liberty supporters like the ones on this forum and the government attempted to another pass a North American Union bill, do you really think they could just rig the vote and pass it with the majority just sitting there???

LOL yeah right, I guarantee a giant mob of angry armed Americans would make their way to DC and capture the traitors.

Remember, there are hundreds of millions of us in America and only hundreds of them.

The constitution gives us guns in order to stop tyrannical governments and if the majority were informed patriots, those hundreds of people trying to steal liberty would either be dead or in jail.

Dreamofunity
07-05-2009, 11:37 PM
Ugh, that "USA!" chant made me sick to my stomach.

It wasn't done in pride, it was done in arrogance and ignorance.

Bman
07-05-2009, 11:50 PM
It wasn't done in pride, it was done in arrogance and ignorance.

Welcome to the way of the neo-con.

JeNNiF00F00
07-05-2009, 11:59 PM
Ugh, that "USA!" chant made me sick to my stomach.

It wasn't done in pride, it was done in arrogance and ignorance.

This is what they did at the last tea party I attended. It was stupid and embarrassing.

PaulaGem
07-06-2009, 12:00 AM
That is not true at all. If the majority become well informed Patriots, the government will have to listen to the people and follow the constitution.

If say 60% of America were liberty supporters like the ones on this forum and the government attempted to another pass a North American Union bill, do you really think they could just rig the vote and pass it with the majority just sitting there???

LOL yeah right, I guarantee a giant mob of angry armed Americans would make their way to DC and capture the traitors.

And they are too smart to do anything that dramatic. I'm talking about a ground up fix that restores the Constitution, civil rights, and stops encroaching fascism.





Remember, there are hundreds of millions of us in America and only hundreds of them.

The constitution gives us guns in order to stop tyrannical governments and if the majority were informed patriots, those hundreds of people trying to steal liberty would either be dead or in jail.

Wrong - there is the military, the police force, Blackwater, etc. they've got bigger and better guns, they 've got more money, they've got the power to steal your civil rights, and they've got a well developed plan.

I don't have a gun. I have been thinking about buying one and was told by a local pawnbroker who doesn't deal in guns any more because of the legal restraints that it is going to get harder and harder to get one. The majority of the people in this country do not own a gun.

By the way - if anyone can tell me how to get a small handgun for personal protection please PM me. I really don't know the best way to go about this, and the broker warned me that I'd probably get ripped off at a gun show.

nbhadja
07-06-2009, 12:03 AM
And they are too smart to do anything that dramatic. I'm talking about a ground up fix that restores the Constitution, civil rights, and stops encroaching fascism.




Wrong - there is the military, the police force, Blackwater, etc. they've got bigger and better guns, they 've got more money, they've got the power to steal your civil rights, and they've got a well developed plan.

I don't have a gun. I have been thinking about buying one and was told by a local pawnbroker who doesn't deal in guns any more because of the legal restraints that it is going to get harder and harder to get one. The majority of the people in this country do not own a gun.

By the way - if anyone can tell me how to get a small handgun for personal protection please PM me. I really don't know the best way to go about this, and the broker warned me that I'd probably get ripped off at a gun show.

Members of the military are ordinary US citizens. If the majority of the US were well informed patriots, there is a big chance either they or their families would be well informed patriots and would stop serving the globalists. Very few would be willing to fight for them if majority of the people knew the truth.

PaulaGem
07-06-2009, 12:22 AM
Members of the military are ordinary US citizens. If the majority of the US were well informed patriots, there is a big chance either they or their families would be well informed patriots and would stop serving the globalists. Very few would be willing to fight for them if majority of the people knew the truth.

Speculation I would not stake my freedom on...

What's with all of this pie in the sky stuff? Why is the issue of voting reform and reparing what we have so unpopluar? Not romantic and exciting enough for you guys?

Or maybe just too much real work.....

FSP-Rebel
07-06-2009, 01:13 AM
Can't say that I've read this whole thread, but after watching the vid I would've handled things differently. Outside of being a candidate or a group organizer, I would've left the mic and came over by the cam to the bozos and had a face-face chat with them even if I had to raise my voice. I have no problem getting with (as in getting in faces) neocons that mindlessly shout the usa brain-dead stuff. Just venting, sorry.

LittleLightShining
07-06-2009, 05:43 AM
Big mistake in not delivering the message that people came to hear. The Tea Parties are tax protests.3 of the 5 tea parties in VT focused on Independence and the Constitution. The other 2 may have but I don't have reports from them yet.


By informing people of the truth and converting them from their dormancy.

Unlike fad political trends that are based on image instead of principle (Obama, Bush, Clinton support), real principle based movements do not grow rapidly as the media will always ignore/attack them.

But the growth in these types of movements is permanent. Once you learn the truth, it will forever affect the way you look at politicians. Supporters in this movement, for the most part, know all about a candidate's voting record and form their opinions based on it and will do that for the rest of their lives.

...

We have real growth and a permanent, not temporary, support base.

...

People are starting to listen.I think this is true. Interestingly I got a fantastic response from the majority of attendees at the Tea Party I spoke at. It was only the die-hard GOP members (some of them who have become my friends!) who didn't seem to like some of what I said. They think I'm threatening the governor and Republicans specifically when I'm calling them ALL out.

Hypocrisy doesn't resonate with people. I keep saying, "It's not about politics and personalities, it's about PRINCIPLE!"

Charles Wilson
07-06-2009, 07:40 AM
So we are to rely on some sort of ephiphany on the part of the people that now control our government? The vote is broken - we can't vote them out, but if we keep taliking every one will just sort of ... get it??? Then we'll all live happily ever after, sure...


Look at the facts. We now have 245 Representatives in Congress co-sponsoring HR 1207, the Fed Transparency bill. That is a major accomplishment. Also, our leader Ron Paul is now a respectable household name whereas two years ago he was labeled a "crank", among other derogatory names. We are on the right path to success.

Charles Wilson
07-06-2009, 07:42 AM
"Also, I bet a charge of fascism would be fighting words to most of that crowd."




YouTube - Easy Rider on Freedom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHd6m_cirrU)

Good find!

Charles Wilson
07-06-2009, 08:12 AM
Members of the military are ordinary US citizens. If the majority of the US were well informed patriots, there is a big chance either they or their families would be well informed patriots and would stop serving the globalists. Very few would be willing to fight for them if majority of the people knew the truth.

Remember the American Civil War? Over 600,000 Americans died in that war with countless others wounded -- family members fighting against other family members. Globalism was not the aim of that war but a centralized government (Federalism) was the goal. Propaganda fueled the flames of hatred until common sense no longer paid a part in the actions of the average citizen. The book Uncle Tom's Cabin, a book of fiction, by Harriett Beachum Stow, was partly the blame for inflaming the masses. President Lincoln said as much when acknowledging the power of the book. Never underestimate the power of propaganda, it is a very effective tool when used properly.

PaulaGem
07-06-2009, 09:20 AM
Look at the facts. We now have 245 Representatives in Congress co-sponsoring HR 1207, the Fed Transparency bill. That is a major accomplishment. Also, our leader Ron Paul is now a respectable household name whereas two years ago he was labeled a "crank", among other derogatory names. We are on the right path to success.

But what about all of the other legislation people are whining about on this board? Who do you think Ron Paul is, Jesus?

Those 245 aren't converted, they've just gotten scared over one issue. Yes, it's a start, but it doesn't address the disappearing civl liberties, no bid contracts, private military on U.S. soil, and on and on.....

specsaregood
07-06-2009, 09:34 AM
But what about all of the other legislation people are whining about on this board? Who do you think Ron Paul is, Jesus?

Way to ignore the substance of his comment and follow it up with stupid snide remarks. You are obviously part of the problem, congratulations.



Those 245 aren't converted, they've just gotten scared over one issue. Yes, it's a start, but it doesn't address the disappearing civl liberties, no bid contracts, private military on U.S. soil, and on and on.....

Since you seem to fail at reading comprehension, let me quote the important part:


We are on the right path to success.

PaulaGem
07-06-2009, 09:42 AM
Way to ignore the substance of his comment and follow it up with stupid snide remarks. You are obviously part of the problem, congratulations.


Since you seem to fail at reading comprehension, let me quote the important part:

I'm sorry that my simile offended you. I believe it made an appropriate point. Those people are not converts, and expecting one figurehead to do all of the work is just plain naive.

specsaregood
07-06-2009, 09:59 AM
I'm sorry that my simile offended you. I believe it made an appropriate point.

You don't have the ability to offend me. And there is not any simile in your comment, one might stretch the meaning of metaphor to fit your comment but even that would take some doing since it is posed as a question.



Those people are not converts, and expecting one figurehead to do all of the work is just plain naive.
Who here is arguing that position? You? On the contrary it seems everybody here is working to have the populace do the work.

MRoCkEd
07-06-2009, 10:09 AM
Looks like somebody else posted a longer version of the libertarian being booed. He starts off by criticizing Bush for increasing spending and then goes after the military budget:
YouTube - Anti-Tax Guy gets shouted down at Hartford Tea Party! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jnQAZJdHlI)

LibertyEagle
07-06-2009, 10:15 AM
Not that I could do any better, but I think he approached it wrong. They took his comment about the military budget to mean that he wasn't strong on national defense. This is a hot button for the Republicans. Pretty much after he said that, they stopped listening. But hey, I very much applaud him getting up and trying. :)

Andrew-Austin
07-06-2009, 10:21 AM
Ussa, ussa, ussa!

PaulaGem
07-06-2009, 10:29 AM
On the contrary it seems everybody here is working to have the populace do the work.

They can't do the work under the present system without an honest vote.

Krugerrand
07-06-2009, 10:49 AM
Not that I could do any better, but I think he approached it wrong. They took his comment about the military budget to mean that he wasn't strong on national defense. This is a hot button for the Republicans. Pretty much after he said that, they stopped listening. But hey, I very much applaud him getting up and trying. :)

For a mostly republican audience, it's best to start by talking about being the world's policeman in Somalia and Clinton's wars. Then, praise Bush's early campaign rhetoric seeking a humble foreign policy. Attack the defense spending that keeps US troops in Europe, Korea, and everywhere else they do not need to be. Save money and increase our security by bringing them home. Attack Obama's efforts to screw up the Stans. Then, complain that he nor Bush heeded Bush's early campaign rhetoric that used to resonate so clearly with conservatives.

When talking about the failed war on drugs ... start by complaining about the FDA. Bring up how they fail to protect our food supply, they fail to ensure safe medication on the market. Shut down the FDA and let people who are dying and their doctors decide on which experimental drugs they take. Then, suggest that we may not like the idea of certain drugs being available. But turn it into a personal responsibility issue. If you screw up, don't expect my tax dollars to bail you out. Rather than wasting our tax dollars chasing the drug smugglers and dealer and then trying to rehabilitate and/or jail the users ... let people take responsibility for themselves and keep our tax dollars out of it entirely. -- Attack the federal institutions, talk personal responsibility, talk saving tax dollars.

Badger Paul
07-06-2009, 10:51 AM
There's no question there's a battle going on between Freepers and Paulites over control of the Tea Parties and of the movement as a whole. We started it and they want to take over. Are we going to let them?

Bman
07-06-2009, 11:06 AM
There's no question there's a battle going on between Freepers and Paulites over control of the Tea Parties and of the movement as a whole. We started it and they want to take over. Are we going to let them?

What is a Freeper? Haven't heard that term yet.

Andrew-Austin
07-06-2009, 11:07 AM
They can't do the work under the present system without an honest vote.


Did Gandhi and the Indians opt out of the British Empire by voting? Its naive to think the only way a mass movement can assert itself is through voting.

Oh well, I guess I'm not looking to keep the present system.

Pericles
07-06-2009, 11:15 AM
Not that I could do any better, but I think he approached it wrong. They took his comment about the military budget to mean that he wasn't strong on national defense. This is a hot button for the Republicans. Pretty much after he said that, they stopped listening. But hey, I very much applaud him getting up and trying. :)

+1 Many libertarians take the Rousseau view of the world - the natural state of man is peaceful and society exists to extend cooperation for mutual benefit. The Hobbes view of the natural state of man is one of war against all, and society exists to restrain the evil from preying upon the good. The truth is undoubtedly between the two extremes, but I suspect more citizens tent toward the Hobbes view.

On a foreign policy view you can think there are no real enemies of the US when the country conducts business as it should (the Rousseau view), or that the world is a dangerous place, and some type of military establishment is warranted. Again, I would suggest that the public thinks of the world as a dangerous place, and you can have a discussion about how dangerous it is, but to suggest that it isn't dangerous will get short shrift as is evidenced by the video.

PaulaGem
07-06-2009, 12:01 PM
Did Gandhi and the Indians opt out of the British Empire by voting? Its naive to think the only way a mass movement can assert itself is through voting.

Oh well, I guess I'm not looking to keep the present system.

Until someone comes up with a better one, I think we should keep the present system.

Why radicalize a process if its goals could be achieved more quickly and efficiently through the existing structure?

specsaregood
07-06-2009, 12:22 PM
What is a Freeper? Haven't heard that term yet.

See: http://www.freerepublic.com/
Neo-con central it is.

sdczen
07-06-2009, 12:40 PM
Looks like somebody else posted a longer version of the libertarian being booed. He starts off by criticizing Bush for increasing spending and then goes after the military budget:
YouTube - Anti-Tax Guy gets shouted down at Hartford Tea Party! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jnQAZJdHlI)

Wow! :eek: I've often said, being a Libertarian is a very lonely place sometimes. We certainly don't fit it in either party.

That said, what a bunch of blood thirsty POS's. With people like this we'll never have individual freedom and peace. :( It's all going to end in tears in a violent and bloody revolution. :(

Cowlesy
07-06-2009, 01:03 PM
Know your audience. The War on Drugs is probably on par with the Iraq War on the list of ridiculously difficult items from which to deprogram individuals --- and if you have a bunch of like-minded individuals in a group setting and you toss that grenade---you should expect to get the Team Fair Tax's "USA/USA/USA" chant.

Right on principle. Wrong on timing and tactic. A+ for effort.

Charles Wilson
07-06-2009, 01:41 PM
But what about all of the other legislation people are whining about on this board? Who do you think Ron Paul is, Jesus?

Those 245 aren't converted, they've just gotten scared over one issue. Yes, it's a start, but it doesn't address the disappearing civl liberties, no bid contracts, private military on U.S. soil, and on and on.....


To my way of thinking, apathy is the alternative to pragmatism. No I do not think Ron Paul is Jesus but I do think he will rank right up there with Gandhi and Martin Luther King when history is written some day. He is my hero. :)

BTW: Jesus is my Savior.

Todd
07-06-2009, 01:57 PM
Big mistake in not delivering the message that people came to hear. The Tea Parties are tax protests.

You got it.

Bman
07-06-2009, 01:58 PM
See: http://www.freerepublic.com/
Neo-con central it is.

Gotcha. Yup they need to be shut down.

Feenix566
07-06-2009, 02:21 PM
I'm glad that the libertarian speakers didn't deliver the message the neocons wanted to hear. It's about time we started having a real debate in this country. I don't go to a protest to feel better about myself. I already feel great about myself. I don't need a pro-Republican pep rally. I'm glad to see people fighting about the issues. That's the way it should be. Fighting is the first step towards real change. I certainly hope nobody expected things to change overnight without a fight!

We should be bringing the fight to these neocons on a daily basis.

MRoCkEd
07-06-2009, 03:59 PM
Ghemminger gives his take:

YouTube - Libertarian and Conservative GOPers Clash at TeaParty (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVMYIerLhbY)