No one in America willing to hire disgraced Abu Ghraib soldier

[Liberty Star]

Is this Abu Ghraib soldier getting a fair shake in American society following her Iraq return?


Abu Ghraib scandal haunts W.Va. reservist


http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20090629/capt.f3b1f05507b64be9b18642dcc3d075cb.abu_ghraib_e ngland_wvvs102.jpg?x=213&y=148&xc=1&yc=1&wc=410&hc=285&q=85&sig=o1X5GxK743C37gBJbmroHw--
AP – Lynndie England, former Army reservist and the face of the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal, is pictured …

By P.J. DICKERSCHEID and VICKI SMITH, Associated Press Writers P.j. Dickerscheid And Vicki Smith, Associated Press Writers – 29 mins ago

KEYSER, W.Va. – More than two years since leaving her prison cell, the woman who became the grinning face of the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal spends most of her days confined to the four walls of her home.

Former Army reservist Lynndie England hasn't landed a job in numerous tries: When one restaurant manager considered hiring her, other employees threatened to quit.
She doesn't like to travel: Strangers point and whisper, "That's her!"

In fact, she doesn't leave the house much at all, limiting her outings mostly to grocery runs.

"I don't have a social life," she says. " ... I sit at home all day."

She's tried dyeing her dark brown hair, wearing sunglasses and ball caps. She even thought about changing her name. But "it's my face that's always recognized," she says, "and I can't really change that."


England says the most painful jab came in a note from a stranger who suggested her mother "shoot herself for raising somebody like me, and that I should kill my baby and kill myself, or give up my child for adoption, because the way I was raised they didn't want him to turn into some evil monster, too.

"... and then at the end of it they were like, 'Oh, God bless you,'" she adds with a wry laugh.

As a teenager, England hunted squirrels and fantasized about becoming a storm chaser. As a woman, she has more worries than dreams.

She worries about whether she's a good mother to her 4-year-old son Carter.

"Normal moms have jobs. They get up, they take their kids to school, they go to work, they come home, they cook, they clean, they do all that," she says. "I'm home all day."

She says she submitted hundreds of resumes for all kinds of jobs, but no one would give her a chance. She stopped trying months ago and depends on welfare and her parents to get by.

She also fears for her life, though she's 4,000 miles from Iraq: "I'm paranoid about that one guy who still hates me."

Even if she could go back and change something, England says she wouldn't. If she hadn't met Graner, she says, she wouldn't have her son, the one bright spot from an otherwise dark time.

"I couldn't have Carter exactly as he is without anybody else except Graner," she says, "so to me that's the whole reason for me meeting him."

What she wants most now is what most mothers want, to give her child a good life.

And as for herself? "I don't think beyond day to day."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090629/ap_on_re_us/us_abu_ghraib_england

[NerveShocker]

I could feel sorry for her.. but I didn't see any sympathy of her face when she was torturing people who have never been proved of doing anything criminal. I think this is a great example of what should happen to people who torture other people or do any other inhumane acts. This is exactly what she deserves in my opinion. Maybe other people will think twice for now on before they blindly follow orders. Her situation sucks but one evil act can ruin your life, that's her own fault.

[Liberty Star]

Karma or Divine justice did come to my mind too when I read this story and hard to feel sorry for her when she still says this:


Even if she could go back and change something, England says she wouldn't. If she hadn't met Graner, she says, she wouldn't have her son, the one bright spot from an otherwise dark time.


But it is still remarkable story that no one even from pro war or neocon community has reached out to her just because she applied the "enhanced interrogation techniques" with some innovations.

[evilfunnystuff]

fuck her she earned her misery and honestly i dont buy it if she wanted a job she could have it im 100% sure there are tons of places who have no clue who she is or what she did or does and supports it and ill bet with this exposure she gets some cushy position from some warmonger who feels sorry for her

[Steeleye]

Maybe she can rent herself out as a dominatrix to sickos who like to be treated bad by fat, dumpy butt ugly chicks.

[StilesBC]

No sympathy.

None whatsoever.

[Mini-Me]

I could feel sorry for her.. but I didn't see any sympathy of her face when she was torturing people who have never been proved of doing anything criminal. I think this is a great example of what should happen to people who torture other people or do any other inhumane acts. This is exactly what she deserves in my opinion. Maybe other people will think twice for now on before they blindly follow orders. Her situation sucks but one evil act can ruin your life, that's her own fault.

This is exactly how I feel...

[tangent4ronpaul]

She's a scapegoat. No higher ups were charged. She didn't even routinely work with prisoners - she did paperwork but was around when those photo's were taken.

"Families of the other soldiers facing charges insist that they were acting under orders from military intelligence, CIA interrogators and private contractors, who told them to soften prisoners up for questioning."

-t

[tremendoustie]

This is how ostracism works. I don't believe an entire justice system can be based around it, as some do, but it is a powerful force.

[Sean]

She's a scapegoat. No higher ups were charged. She didn't even routinely work with prisoners - she did paperwork but was around when those photo's were taken.

"Families of the other soldiers facing charges insist that they were acting under orders from military intelligence, CIA interrogators and private contractors, who told them to soften prisoners up for questioning."

-t

Yep, they pretty much blamed the lowest of the low for official policy.

[tremendoustie]

Yep, they pretty much blamed the lowest of the low for official policy.

The lowest of the low should also be prosecuted, and held responsible, just as Nazi low level thugs were also rightfully held responsible, despite their protests of "just following orders". Those who do evil things "on orders" are not exempted from responsibility for their actions. Evil orders should be refused.

[Kludge]

I'm surprised she hasn't been murdered, yet.

[loarmistead]

That's very unfortunate. She did something stupid, she was tried, did her time, and now she's free. It's just sad that the public has to be so openly antagonistic towards her... then again the people who pass her on the street and criticize her are probably the same ones who vote... and we see what the voting populace has given us lately... so stupidity seems to be a logical explanation.

[Reason]

she is not THAT recognizable...

I call horseshit on this.

[tangent4ronpaul]

she is not THAT recognizable...

I call horseshit on this.

Keyser, West Virginia - population 5,303...

-t

[Reason]

Keyser, West Virginia - population 5,303...

-t

touche...

but then again...

http://www.acornministorage.com/_l/i/tpl/new_tm.jpg

[James Madison]

I have no sympathy for this woman. She disgraced all those who have worn the American uniform honorably.

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

I'm surprised she hasn't been murdered, yet.

She is in no danger. The people that are disgusted by her have something she does not: morality.

As far a being a scapegoat, what would have happened to her if she disobeyed orders and did the right thing? She would have gone to jail. Hmmm. . . Or maybe, if the public moral outrage against her is so great for what she did under orders, she would have been a hero for blowing the whistle on the sickos further up the chain of command.

[james1906]

Maybe she can rent herself out as a dominatrix to sickos who like to be treated bad by fat, dumpy butt ugly chicks.

I was thinking she could have a career in porn. But yeah, I'm sure there's plenty of men (and women) out there ready to play S&M with a top pro. I wonder if Dennis Hof would hire her.

[tangent4ronpaul]

She is in no danger. The people that are disgusted by her have something she does not: morality.

As far a being a scapegoat, what would have happened to her if she disobeyed orders and did the right thing? She would have gone to jail. Hmmm. . . Or maybe, if the public moral outrage against her is so great for what she did under orders, she would have been a hero for blowing the whistle on the sickos further up the chain of command.

Disobeying orders in time of war is considered treason. If found guilty, it earns you a firing squad. If she was lucky, a long, long prison term. Strictly speaking, her commanding officer would have been perfectly justified in taking her out back and shooting her with no trial or investigation for such a stunt.

As is, she was sentenced to something like 15 years in Leavenworth and is out in 2. She was lucky - VERY lucky!

As to how much of a disgrace she is - she's not. The problem is the pics leaking. These people were being interrogated to get information to save American lives. As an example of other techniques used to soften up interrogatee's - it is common practice to put someone in a cold atmosphere, and douse then with ice water so they are uncomfortable and their genitals constrict. Then, seated naked in front of interrogators, have a female member of the team who is above average in the looks department make snide comments about the prisoners "hardware". This is to break them down and make them vulnerable. Sometimes that makes the subject crack and give info about stockpiles and future attacks. If it saves American lives, even sometimes - whats your problem? Look at those pics again with that in mind. We are talking about war here.

Also remember that Islamic males have more of a "macho" complex than Hispanic males. It's a touchy spot in their whole belief spectrum and exactly the right one to attack to soften them up.

She did absolutely NOTHING wrong!

-t

[Fozz]

I have absolutely no sympathy for her. She is lucky to even be out of jail. What a POS.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Wrong place, wrong time - caught in a media scandal over leaked pics. She followed orders. Don't hate her for that.

-t

[RedLightning]

I feel sad for the child, but I have a hard time feeling bad for her.

[tangent4ronpaul]

I don't suppose you have any pics you wouldn't like see all over the Internet - or even situations where if pics were taken...

naw - never - not you....

-t

[James Madison]

Disobeying orders in time of war is considered treason. If found guilty, it earns you a firing squad. If she was lucky, a long, long prison term. Strictly speaking, her commanding officer would have been perfectly justified in taking her out back and shooting her with no trial or investigation for such a stunt.

As is, she was sentenced to something like 15 years in Leavenworth and is out in 2. She was lucky - VERY lucky!

As to how much of a disgrace she is - she's not. The problem is the pics leaking. These people were being interrogated to get information to save American lives. As an example of other techniques used to soften up interrogatee's - it is common practice to put someone in a cold atmosphere, and douse then with ice water so they are uncomfortable and their genitals constrict. Then, seated naked in front of interrogators, have a female member of the team who is above average in the looks department make snide comments about the prisoners "hardware". This is to break them down and make them vulnerable. Sometimes that makes the subject crack and give info about stockpiles and future attacks. If it saves American lives, even sometimes - whats your problem? Look at those pics again with that in mind. We are talking about war here.

Also remember that Islamic males have more of a "macho" complex than Hispanic males. It's a touchy spot in their whole belief spectrum and exactly the right one to attack to soften them up.

She did absolutely NOTHING wrong!

-t

First of all, show me the declaration of war. Oh, that's right, there isn't one. Therefore, the phrase 'time of war' is not applicable. Secondly, just because you're given an order doesn't mean it's justified or legal. Remember, "just following orders" got the Nazi Concentration Camp workers executed. A crime is a crime regardless of whether or not it's premeditated or just "an order". And are you honestly serious about the commanding officer shooting the soldier? I know you might not like it, but that is murder in cold blood. period. We have a court system to levy sentences, and if she is found guilty of treason by a jury of her peers then so be it. Hate to break it to you, but these commanding officers aren't gods; they are held to the same standards that every individual of the armed forces is. People like you make me sick. And I know, it's all about "gettin' them brown people". Listen, if you allow this to go on in Iraq, it's only a matter of time before it comes back to roost in America. While you rationalize away the rights of Iraqis, you're only destroying your own future, so really I can't imagine why you feel the way you do about this. Also, you call this "normal"?! The Founders would be aghast at such behavior. 1) torture doesn't even get you good information 2) if you psychologically accept torture on even one group you open doors for endless oppression of other groups. Do you really think Ron Paul would support such dispicable behavior? And just for the record, my dad is Arab and a disabled veteran so I don't appreciate you're neocon-induced stereotypes of Arabs.

[James Madison]

I don't suppose you have any pics you wouldn't like see all over the Internet - or even situations where if pics were taken...

naw - never - not you....

-t

No, actually I don't.

[tangent4ronpaul]

First of all, show me the declaration of war. Oh, that's right, there isn't one. Therefore, the phrase 'time of war' is not applicable. Secondly, just because you're given an order doesn't mean it's justified or legal.

We have not had one since WWII - yet, that does not stop undeclared "wars". Don't think that will stop the system - we are talking MILITARY "justice" here....




A crime is a crime regardless of whether or not it's premeditated or just "an order". And are you honestly serious about the commanding officer shooting the soldier? I know you might not like it, but that is murder in cold blood. period. We have a court system to levy sentences, and if she is found guilty of treason by a jury of her peers then so be it. Hate to break it to you, but these commanding officers aren't gods; they are held to the same standards that every individual of the armed forces is. People like you make me sick.

And that all goes out the widow if you are dealing with certain branches of the military - the laws "change"... not like you don't loose 99% of your "rights" just by enlisting.

I have personally been threatened with execution, while never a member of the military, but simply by being entrusted with certain information and being on the soil of a mil base of a certain branch of the military. Basically - KEEP YOUR FUCKIN MOUTH SHIT OR WE CAN LEGALLY KILL YOU! - No questions asked.




And I know, it's all about "gettin' them brown people". Listen, if you allow this to go on in Iraq, it's only a matter of time before it comes back to roost in America. While you rationalize away the rights of Iraqis, you're only destroying your own future, so really I can't imagine why you feel the way you do about this. Also, you call this "normal"?! The Founders would be aghast at such behavior. 1) torture doesn't even get you good information 2) if you psychologically accept torture on even one group you open doors for endless oppression of other groups. Do you really think Ron Paul would support such dispicable behavior? And just for the record, my dad is Arab and a disabled veteran so I don't appreciate you're neocon-induced stereotypes of Arabs.

No - it's not about getting the "brown people" - it's about saving American lives in a war zone. There is a world of difference between "torture" and interrogation. I agree that torture does not give you good info. Yes - as to breaking down people psychologically, this is "normal". It's what is done. Just for the record, one of my former roommates grew up in Iran (a PhD student) and I dated an Iranian girl. So FU! I am very familiar with that culture.

-t

[tangent4ronpaul]

No, actually I don't.

So what monastery did you grow up in?

-t

[James Madison]

So what monastery did you grow up in?

-t

Actually I'm not religious at all. I just knew when to control myself and avoid bad situations.

[tangent4ronpaul]

I think that puts you in the category of "rare" or "unique"....

-t

[James Madison]

We have not had one since WWII - yet, that does not stop undeclared "wars". Don't think that will stop the system - we are talking MILITARY "justice" here....





And that all goes out the widow if you are dealing with certain branches of the military - the laws "change"... not like you don't loose 99% of your "rights" just by enlisting.





No - it's not about getting the "brown people" - it's about saving American lives in a war zone. There is a world of difference between "torture" and interrogation. I agree that torture does not give you good info. Yes - as to breaking down people psychologically, this is "normal". It's what is done. Just for the record, one of my former roommates grew up in Iran (a PhD student) and I dated an Iranian girl. So FU! I am very familiar with that culture.

-t

Let me guess, "they hate us because we're free"? There's a big difference between the "system" as you call it and basic ethics and moralities. Clearly you're a government apologist and sympathizer, am I right? There are dealing in this world far greater than you will ever see on the news, things that are not intended to see the light of day. If a law can change then it's not a law. Rights are derived from being a human being or (religion permitting) god-given. They're unalienable. And if you rationalize away the rights of one group you will invariable destroy yourself. "He who wishes to guard his own liberty must protect even his enemy from oppression" -Thomas Paine. Clearly he was with Al-Qaeda. Do you support the war? Have you ever experienced this time of "interrogation" as you call it? Listen, you sound like someone who's sincere in what he believes but unfortunately is only getting half the picture. Behavior like this cannot be allowed under an circumstances. Knowledge of it in the Arab world will only cause more violence. And just an fyi, Iraqis are Arab. My dad is Turkish, Greek, and Lebanese (also Arab). Iranians are Persians, ie not Arab. Quite frankly, I'm not familiar with Persian culture so maybe that's a thing with them, but I've never heard it from anyone in my family.

[James Madison]

I think that puts you in the category of "rare" or "unique"....

-t

Maybe it does, I don't know? I've always been told I'm "special".:D

[Kludge]

I think that puts you in the category of "rare" or "unique"....

Sarcasm???

[James Madison]

I have personally been threatened with execution, while never a member of the military, but simply by being entrusted with certain information and being on the soil of a mil base of a certain branch of the military. Basically - KEEP YOUR FUCKIN MOUTH SHIT OR WE CAN LEGALLY KILL YOU! - No questions asked.






-t

For some reason this didn't show up when I was quoting you. Where exactly were you threatened? I don't doubt you I'm just curious. Believe me, I know the types. 6-4, 260, roided out of their mind and on power-trips. Those people are un-American garbage that were probably hired from the slammer. When we take this country back they will be charged with treason after being found guilty by a jury of their peers.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Let me guess, "they hate us because we're free"? There's a big difference between the "system" as you call it and basic ethics and moralities. Clearly you're a government apologist and sympathizer, am I right? There are dealing in this world far greater than you will ever see on the news, things that are not intended to see the light of day. If a law can change then it's not a law. Rights are derived from being a human being or (religion permitting) god-given. They're unalienable. And if you rationalize away the rights of one group you will invariable destroy yourself. "He who wishes to guard his own liberty must protect even his enemy from oppression" -Thomas Paine. Clearly he was with Al-Qaeda. Do you support the war? Have you ever experienced this time of "interrogation" as you call it? Listen, you sound like someone who's sincere in what he believes but unfortunately is only getting half the picture. Behavior like this cannot be allowed under an circumstances. Knowledge of it in the Arab world will only cause more violence. And just an fyi, Iraqis are Arab. My dad is Turkish, Greek, and Lebanese (also Arab). Iranians are Persians, ie not Arab. Quite frankly, I'm not familiar with Persian culture so maybe that's a thing with them, but I've never heard it from anyone in my family.

> "they hate us because we're free"?

no - that's total BS.

> Clearly you're a government apologist and sympathizer, am I right?

No - you are not. But I do believe in supporting our troops. The politicians got us into this BS. It's not the troops fault.

> god-given

which "God"?

> Behavior like this cannot be allowed under an circumstances.

You are sooo right! - it's much better to maintain the intellectual high ground from the comfort of your lazy boy chair than to actually save American lives from being killed. The fanatics are a minority - a SMALL, but dangerous minority. Sure we agree - we shouldn't be over there in the first place, but we are - and as such - I see no problem in doing what it takes to return the largest percentage of our kids coming home.

btw: My roomie was Armenian but grew up in in Iran, the GF was Persian. (and when I found out who her dad was I shit my pants... :( Don't ask...)

-t

[tangent4ronpaul]

For some reason this didn't show up when I was quoting you. Where exactly were you threatened? I don't doubt you I'm just curious. Believe me, I know the types. 6-4, 260, roided out of their mind and on power-trips. Those people are un-American garbage that were probably hired from the slammer. When we take this country back they will be charged with treason after being found guilty by a jury of their peers.

Not going there.

Lets just say that the relationship is "consensual" and we are on good terms.

The world was a different place at that time. They are good people. We are friends.

-t

[Optatron]

so you mean she didn't make millions selling those photos online?

[tangent4ronpaul]

so you mean she didn't make millions selling those photos online?

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yeah - that's why she's living in her parents house and spent 2 years in a mil prison....

-t

[James Madison]

> "they hate us because we're free"?

no - that's total BS.

> Clearly you're a government apologist and sympathizer, am I right?

No - you are not. But I do believe in supporting our troops. The politicians got us into this BS. It's not the troops fault.

> god-given

which "God"?

> Behavior like this cannot be allowed under an circumstances.

You are sooo right! - it's much better to maintain the intellectual high ground from the comfort of your lazy boy chair than to actually save American lives from being killed. The fanatics are a minority - a SMALL, but dangerous minority. Sure we agree - we shouldn't be over there in the first place, but we are - and as such - I see no problem in doing what it takes to return the largest percentage of our kids coming home.

btw: My roomie was Armenian but grew up in in Iran, the GF was Persian. (and when I found out who her dad was I shit my pants... :( Don't ask...)

-t

I see what you're trying to do. Because I don't endorse your foreign policy I'm not patriotic and don't support the troops. Yes, it is important to bring as many soldiers home as possible. Unlike during Vietnam, it's good to see the American people not having any ill-feelings toward returning veterans. But a quick question? If the government cares about the troops so much why did DHS issue MULTIPLE reports saying returning veterans are the #1 threat to the country? Why can't veterans get their benefits? My dad had to deal with the VA constantly and yet me tell you it's one of the biggest jokes around. Completely incompatent, bureaucratic, red-tape organization that needs serious overhaul. Why are soldiers serving their third tours in Iraq? Why are they being stop-lossed? Simple. The government doesn't care about veterans at all. In fact, they don't care about anyone but themselves. But they wrap everything in a flag and say it's for America so weak-minded yuppies and good ole boys can feel like they're part of the system. Now, I don't blame your roomie for moving from Armenia. Never been there and never plan on it. Former Soviet state that was bankrupted by the Cold War, doesn't sound fun at all. Now that you said I have to ask...was it mr. holocaust denier?:D

[James Madison]

Not going there.

Lets just say that the relationship is "consensual" and we are on good terms.

The world was a different place at that time. They are good people. We are friends.

-t

I'll take your word for it.

[tremendoustie]

Disobeying orders in time of war is considered treason. If found guilty, it earns you a firing squad. If she was lucky, a long, long prison term. Strictly speaking, her commanding officer would have been perfectly justified in taking her out back and shooting her with no trial or investigation for such a stunt.


Strictly speaking, that would be murder. He would be killing, in cold blood, a person who had not committed violence against others or their property -- indeed, had refused to do so.

What's sad is that your definition of morality is apparently determined by what things "are considered" by our government, instead of any rational definition.

I guess as a German you'd have gone right along with the nazis -- after all, refusing orders is treason.



As is, she was sentenced to something like 15 years in Leavenworth and is out in 2. She was lucky - VERY lucky!


She's a disgrace. She, and everyone down the chain of command who issued these orders, should be in jail for life -- or better yet, working for life to pay restitution to the victims.




As to how much of a disgrace she is - she's not. The problem is the pics leaking. These people were being interrogated to get information to save American lives.


Bullshit. We used to have morals in this country. If saving my life takes sexual torture, I'll take death thank you. We used to believe that many things, including honor, and freedom, were worth death. Apparently most of us have turned into a bunch of cowards who will sacrifice everything and anything for a tiny amount of safety, or even the perception of it -- just to quell our paranoid fears.




As an example of other techniques used to soften up interrogatee's - it is common practice to put someone in a cold atmosphere, and douse then with ice water so they are uncomfortable and their genitals constrict. Then, seated naked in front of interrogators, have a female member of the team who is above average in the looks department make snide comments about the prisoners "hardware". This is to break them down and make them vulnerable. Sometimes that makes the subject crack and give info about stockpiles and future attacks. If it saves American lives, even sometimes - whats your problem? Look at those pics again with that in mind. We are talking about war here.

We are talking about sick sexual deviancy against potentially innocent people in hopes of occasionally getting a little bit of potentially useful information as to how to quell their rebellion -- oh, yeah, in their country which we are occupying. Picture Cornwallis doing this kind of @#$@# against the colonists and you'll get a bit of the picture.

And we're talking about your sick morality which condones it.



Also remember that Islamic males have more of a "macho" complex than Hispanic males. It's a touchy spot in their whole belief spectrum and exactly the right one to attack to soften them up.


Or maybe they have a modicum of decency and modesty, which apparently quite a few sickos around this rapidly deteriorating country of ours lack.



She did absolutely NOTHING wrong!

-t

Congratulations, you've joined her as champions of the world in most twisted moral codes, or lack thereof category.

Tell you what, how about a foreign country comes here, because they disagree with our government's policies, depose it, set up a puppet government, and then sexually torture you or your family if you resist them. Then we'll see how you feel about said foreign country.

It's all for information, after all -- to save lives.

[tangent4ronpaul]

I see what you're trying to do. Because I don't endorse your foreign policy I'm not patriotic and don't support the troops. Yes, it is important to bring as many soldiers home as possible. Unlike during Vietnam, it's good to see the American people not having any ill-feelings toward returning veterans. But a quick question? If the government cares about the troops so much why did DHS issue MULTIPLE reports saying returning veterans are the #1 threat to the country? Why can't veterans get their benefits? My dad had to deal with the VA constantly and yet me tell you it's one of the biggest jokes around. Completely incompatent, bureaucratic, red-tape organization that needs serious overhaul. Why are soldiers serving their third tours in Iraq? Why are they being stop-lossed? Simple. The government doesn't care about veterans at all. In fact, they don't care about anyone but themselves. But they wrap everything in a flag and say it's for America so weak-minded yuppies and good ole boys can feel like they're part of the system. Now, I don't blame your roomie for moving from Armenia. Never been there and never plan on it. Former Soviet state that was bankrupted by the Cold War, doesn't sound fun at all. Now that you said I have to ask...was it mr. holocaust denier?:D

I am on your side more than you know. I think we should withdraw our mil presence from 99% of the world and concentrate on defending our soil. Not quite as radical ad Dr. Paul, but close. I think a few bases with min staffing and pre-positioned mil stockpiles are good. A healthy intelligence arm is good - for the sole purpose of early warning, not influencing and controlling other countries. This is a far cry from what we have.

-t

[tremendoustie]

I am on your side more than you know. I think we should withdraw our mil presence from 99% of the world and concentrate on defending our soil. Not quite as radical ad Dr. Paul, but close. I think a few bases with min staffing and pre-positioned mil stockpiles are good. A healthy intelligence arm is good - for the sole purpose of early warning, not influencing and controlling other countries. This is a far cry from what we have.

-t

Right, but until we leave those countries which we are illegally occupying, we should sexually torture the locals. Gotcha.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Strictly speaking, that would be murder. He would be killing, in cold blood, a person who had not committed violence against others or their property -- indeed, had refused to do so.

What's sad is that your definition of morality is apparently determined by what things "are considered" by our government, instead of any rational definition.

I guess as a German you'd have gone right along with the nazis -- after all, refusing orders is treason.



She's a disgrace. She, and everyone down the chain of command who issued these orders, should be in jail for life -- or better yet, working for life to pay restitution to the victims.




Bullshit. We used to have morals in this country. If saving my life takes sexual torture, I'll take death thank you. We used to believe that many things, including honor, and freedom, were worth death. Apparently most of us have turned into a bunch of cowards who will sacrifice everything and anything for a tiny amount of safety, or even the perception of it -- just to quell our paranoid fears.




We are talking about sick sexual deviancy against potentially innocent people in hopes of occasionally getting a little bit of potentially useful information as to how to quell their rebellion -- oh, yeah, in their country which we are occupying. Picture Cornwallis doing this kind of @#$@# against the colonists and you'll get a bit of the picture.

And we're talking about your sick morality which condones it.



Or maybe they have a modicum of decency and modesty, which apparently quite a few sickos around this rapidly deteriorating country of ours lack.



Congratulations, you've joined her as champions of the world in most twisted moral codes, or lack thereof category.

Tell you what, how about a foreign country comes here, because they disagree with our government's policies, depose it, set up a puppet government, and then sexually torture you or your family if you resist them. Then we'll see how you feel about said foreign country.

It's all for information, after all -- to save lives.

Your reply isn't even worth replying to - with one exception. The higher ups were never charged. The ones that gave the orders. There is the perversion of justice!

-t

[tremendoustie]

Your reply isn't even worth replying to - with one exception. The higher ups were never charged. The ones that gave the orders. There is the perversion of justice!

-t

You mean you have no rational response, because you are apparently devoid of that as well as moral character. I wonder why you want the "higher ups" prosecuted -- after all, you "see no problem in doing what it takes to return the largest percentage of our kids coming home."

By all means, let's throw all our moral decency and high ground, principles, liberties, rights, and humanity down the crapper, if it might potentially increase our chances of drawing our next breath -- why, there's no greater principle than keeping myself alive at any cost, that's what real heroes, I mean cowards believe.

And your Nuremberg defense is bullshit. Look it up.

[tangent4ronpaul]

...high ground, principles...

Right - like the red coats who's higher moral ground consisted of fighting wars by coming out in lines, brightly decorated and firing in vollies(sp?) - while those TERRORIST colonialists hid behind trees and picked them off instead of acting morally by presenting themselves for slaughter in a proper warfare style... <VOMIT!>

-t

[tangent4ronpaul]

btw: Nuremberg was WWII - the last declared war. Disobey orders and you get a bullet in the head - no questions asked.

Not like the undeclared newer wars. But they do act like it's a declared war.

-t

[tremendoustie]

...high ground, principles...

Right - like the red coats who's higher moral ground consisted of fighting wars by coming out in lines, brightly decorated and firing in vollies(sp?) - while those TERRORIST colonialists hid behind trees and picked them off instead of acting morally by presenting themselves for slaughter in a proper warfare style... <VOMIT!>

-t

There's a hell of a big difference between hiding behind a tree and freezing/grabbing genitals/other sexual torture. If you can't see that you truly are sick.

[tremendoustie]

btw: Nuremberg was WWII - the last declared war. Disobey orders and you get a bullet in the head - no questions asked.

Not like the undeclared newer wars. But they do act like it's a declared war.

-t

Declarations of war do not change the fact that refusal to follow immoral orders is a moral requirement, or that willingly following evil orders is itself evil.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Look into interrogation tactics in WWII (and before) - this isn't new. If you capture an enemy and have a chance of getting an advantage - well....

-t

[tangent4ronpaul]

Declarations of war do not change the fact that refusal to follow immoral orders is a moral requirement, or that willingly following evil orders is itself evil.

That's nice. We will be sure to inscribe that on your grave stone after you are executed by your own country for following the "moral high ground".

-t

[tremendoustie]

Look into interrogation tactics in WWII (and before) - this isn't new. If you capture an enemy and have a chance of getting an advantage - well....

-t

Well what, all humanity goes out the window? Because sickos with no morals existed in the past, we should all be sickos with no morals now?

[tangent4ronpaul]

Unfortunately, I think the number of sicko's with no morals remains a relative constant - just like drug users. The bigger problem is the number of normal ppl that will go along with things they should not.

-t

[tremendoustie]

That's nice. We will be sure to inscribe that on your grave stone after you are executed by your own country for following the "moral high ground".

-t

I certainly hope I would be decent enough to not let threat of death deter me from doing what is right. Apparently, however, your definition of morality is "anything goes if it might possibly help you survive", which is both despicable and inhuman.

Throw the Jews in the oven!! After all, if I refuse, I might get shot.

[tremendoustie]

Unfortunately, I think the number of sicko's with no morals remains a relative constant - just like drug users. The bigger problem is the number of normal ppl that will go along with things they should not.

-t

That's right ... but I thought you were all for normal people going along with things they should not -- and up for defending the despicable actions themseves, to boot.

[tangent4ronpaul]

No - it takes a critical mass to revolt.

-t

[tremendoustie]

No - it takes a critical mass to revolt.

-t

Do you mean to imply that people should just go along with any immoral behavior, until some "critical mass" is reached?

Also, do you no longer defend sexual torture itself?

[tangent4ronpaul]

Do you mean to imply that people should just go along with any immoral behavior, until some "critical mass" is reached?

Pragmatically - if you are the only objector or a member of a small minority, you will be exterminated as an example.


Also, do you no longer defend sexual torture itself?

Attaching a battery generator to your testicles is is sexual torture. Making snide comments about the size of your dick isn't.

-t

[tremendoustie]

Pragmatically - if you are the only objector or a member of a small minority, you will be exterminated as an example.


Decent people do not commit evil even when threatened by death, because their highest principle is not their own survival (in contrast to an animal's, which is). That's precisely why the Nuremberg defense was rightfully recognized as B.S.



Attaching a battery generator to your testicles is is sexual torture. Making snide comments about the size of your dick isn't.

-t

Freezing someone, stripping them naked, and then looking at them is morally disgusting.

This is even more so (scroll down, content warning):

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraqabughraibpix.html

That you would even begin to think about defending anything close to these actions is so disgusting it makes me want to vomit.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Whatever....

-t

[RM918]

This proves there's no such thing as justice...

...because if there was, she, everyone involved, everyone who ordered it and allowed it - every single last one - would be treated the same way.

[James Madison]

Bump.

[Liberty Star]

Look into interrogation tactics in WWII (and before) - this isn't new. If you capture an enemy and have a chance of getting an advantage - well....

-t

Completely absurd logic. How far back in history you are willing to go to defend these dispicable acts? In past history, rape and plunder also took place, you will defend that too if some of our soldier did that? During Spanish Inquisitions, they used to burn people allive for having wrong beliefs or DNA, would that precedence justify such violence today?


All those who authorized or tolerated these repungant acts regardless of rank in chain of command are a disgrace to America and humanity. Pragamatically, these moral pigmies caused probably over a trillion dollar damage to US economy and tax payers by extending costly Iraq war violence by couple of years. I'm not God expert but He probably has some pretty harsh enhanced interrogations ready for these immoral beings who participated in Abu Ghraib torture.