PDA

View Full Version : Can we use the Hegelian Dialectic?




Rael
07-01-2009, 11:10 PM
This seems to work very well for the state. Is it possible we could use the Hegelian Dialectic to advance the liberty movement?

Expatriate
07-02-2009, 12:09 AM
Wouldn't we have to first have control of most of the mainstream media to do so? In order to create a perceived problem in the minds of the majority and present an antithesis, you would need to reach into the majority's living rooms since it's only real if it's on TV... and besides, I kind of think the Dialectic is only good for increasing government, as its very nature seems to lie in tricking people and not being honest - i.e. presenting two false competing premises to stimulate a desired reaction.

I admit I haven't studied Hegel's theories much, but it sounds kind of like Luke turning to the Dark side to better fight Vader.

lynnf
07-02-2009, 05:04 AM
This seems to work very well for the state. Is it possible we could use the Hegelian Dialectic to advance the liberty movement?


it would be terribly unethical to do so -- like using evil to fight evil. you would only be fooling yourself.

seems to me someone asked this question in a previous thread which is probably in the archive by now.

lynn

FrankRep
07-02-2009, 05:10 AM
This seems to work very well for the state. Is it possible we could use the Hegelian Dialectic to advance the liberty movement?
If you do, you may want to keep that secret.

:rolleyes:

paulitics
07-02-2009, 07:02 AM
It's machievelian for sure. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire though, but the problem is that ends justify the means always turns towards the dark side. I guess we can use it on the internet, because in a few years it will be just as powerful as the MSM, unless the PTB shuts us down.

For instance one can go on DAILY KOS, pretend to be a democrat supporter, and for a few months just post on things you agree with them on, like civil liberties. Slowly you can introduce them to free market principles and why socialism is not being a true democrat, but a socialist and fascist. I have no doubt if there were 100 of us or so over there, it would make a difference in changing people's persepective on what it is to be a democrat. There is some justification in this because you are simply exposing the lies and propaganda taught to them in the universitites.

After a year or so, some of the extremist views like one payer health care, cap and trade economy, will begin to seem like a huge grey area, where debate is prevalent instead of socialist koolaid drinkers who don't question things.

The key is incrementalism. You can't just go over there and say global warming is a hoax, you have to say global warming is real, but how much is man made, and how much will it cost us? Make arguments about how it will hurt the poor the most, but bring that up subtely.

acptulsa
07-02-2009, 07:11 AM
For instance one can go on DAILY KOS, pretend to be a democrat supporter, and for a few months just post on things you agree with them on, like civil liberties. Slowly you can introduce them to free market principles and why socialism is not being a true democrat, but a socialist and fascist. I have no doubt if there were 100 of us or so over there, it would make a difference in changing people's persepective on what it is to be a democrat. There is some justification in this because you are simply exposing the lies and propaganda taught to them in the universitites.

Actually, at least one of our favorite posters of the past got tired of hanging with the choir, and is doing such things. And I say more power to anyone who pushes the message outside of our little circle.

But I personally prefer the direct approach--making sense. And after years of being fed $#!+ in a pretty sandwich, I find that a good many people are very, very receptive to that method. Relieved to get some straight talk, even.

paulitics
07-02-2009, 07:29 AM
Actually, at least one of our favorite posters of the past got tired of hanging with the choir, and is doing such things. And I say more power to anyone who pushes the message outside of our little circle.

But I personally prefer the direct approach--making sense. And after years of being fed $#!+ in a pretty sandwich, I find that a good many people are very, very receptive to that method. Relieved to get some straight talk, even.

I know our guys are all over the place, but they are coming off quite abrasively at times. I guess the most important thing in changing the dialect is large numbers so that your view seems acceptable, not whacky, extremist, etc. But we need to be more subtle, or else people will just grab tighter onto their paradigms that they invested so much of their self worth into.

tonesforjonesbones
07-02-2009, 10:44 AM
Actually, it couldn't hurt to beat them at their own game...G Edward Griffin's Freedom Force International is dedicated to that concept. He said to take it back we have to do what they did...but it will take a LONG time...and there must be a lot of like minded folk doing it. Infiltrate, be the biggest cheerleader, gain their confidence and then come to power.

Things have gone pretty far...and it depends on how quick the change is to come about..either by revolution or evolution. I think everyone knows what needs to happen, but we always have to qualify it with "peacefully, of course". tones

Original_Intent
07-02-2009, 10:48 AM
I think it raises more logistical concerns than ethical ones.

In order to use the dialectic effectively, you need control of media, education, or both. By education I mean the education system, not the individual ability to educate.

tonesforjonesbones
07-02-2009, 10:50 AM
yes I do agree with that..and it can happen but it will take 100 years to undo the evil that has been put upon the American People. tones

tonesforjonesbones
07-02-2009, 10:51 AM
I even saw a Hitler Channel (History Channel) documentary about how the founders were Freemasons and their agenda for a New World Order. I am Fully beginning to believe that is the dialectic being used to demonize our founders...by the New World Order themselves. Tones

tonesforjonesbones
07-02-2009, 10:51 AM
The dialectic.."what is isn't, and what isn't is" tones (try thinking the opposite)

paulitics
07-02-2009, 02:29 PM
I even saw a Hitler Channel (History Channel) documentary about how the founders were Freemasons and their agenda for a New World Order. I am Fully beginning to believe that is the dialectic being used to demonize our founders...by the New World Order themselves. Tones

Of course, its being taught in school that they were all racists. It used not to always be that way, but through incrementalism, yes.

tonesforjonesbones
07-02-2009, 04:20 PM
Yes and the ADL is sending out "teachers" to law enforcement saying the founders were terrorists..I saw a video on that also. tones

tonesforjonesbones
07-02-2009, 04:22 PM
It's called re programming folks..tones

InterestedParticipant
07-02-2009, 06:55 PM
What is critical is to recognize it, to understand that it is manufactured, and to be able to determine if the planned synthesis is in your self interest or not.

If we could just do that, we can protect ourselves. There is no need to employ these techniques, we must simply render them ineffective.

For example, this "group" (ie. the liberty movement) is part of a dialectic that is going to be leveraged against our own self interest. I'd start there, and try to see that first.