College ain't worth what it costs (article)

[heavenlyboy34]

DON'T GET THAT COLLEGE DEGREE! (http://www.nypost.com/seven/06282009/postopinion/opedcolumnists/dont_get_that_college_degree__176545.htm?page=0)

INTELLECTUALLY AND FINANCIALLY, STUDIES SHOW IT'S NOT WORTH IT


June 28, 2009
The four-year college degree has come to cost too much and prove too little. It's now a bad deal for the average student, family, employer, professor and taxpayer.
A student who secures a degree is increasingly unlikely to make up its cost, despite higher pay, and the employer who requires a degree puts faith in a system whose standards are slipping. Too many professors who are bound to degree teaching can't truly profess; they don't proclaim loudly the things they know but instead whisper them to a chosen few, whom they must then accommodate with inflated grades. Worst of all, bright citizens spend their lives not knowing the things they ought to know, because they've been granted liberal-arts degrees for something far short of a liberal-arts education.
I'm not arguing against higher learning but for it -- and against the degree system that stands in its way.
STARTING OUT BEHIND
Consider two childhood friends, Ernie and Bill. Hard workers with helpful families, each saves exactly $16,594 for college. Ernie doesn't get accepted to a school he likes. Instead, he starts work at 18 and invests his college savings in a mutual fund that tracks the broad stock market.
Throughout his life, he makes average yearly pay for a high school graduate with no college, starting at $15,901 after taxes and peaking at $32,538. Each month, he adds to his stock fund 5% of his after-tax income, close to the nation's current savings rate. It returns 8% a year, typical for stock investors.
Bill has a typical college experience. He gets into a public college and after two years transfers to a private one. He spends $49,286 on tuition and required fees, the average for such a track. I'm not counting room and board, since Bill must pay for his keep whether he goes to college or not. Bill gets average-size grants, adjusted for average probabilities of receiving them, and so pays $34,044 for college.
He leaves school with an average-size student loan and a good interest rate: $17,450 at 5%. The $16,594 he has saved for college, you see, is precisely enough to pay what his loans don't cover.
Bill will have higher pay than Ernie his whole life, starting at $23,505 after taxes and peaking at $56,808. Like Ernie, he sets aside 5%. At that rate, it will take him 12 years to pay off his loan. Debt-free at 34, he starts adding to the same index fund as Ernie, making bigger monthly contributions with his higher pay. But when the two reunite at 65 for a retirement party, Ernie will have grown his savings to nearly $1.3 million. Bill will have less than a third of that.

[DAaaMan64]

No shit. But it gets the foot in the door.

[heavenlyboy34]

No shit. But it gets the foot in the door.

That hasn't been my experience. :(

[0zzy]

ya, no. I'm not one who believes such things, especially considering their own chart says college grads earn more. but somehow paying less than $20,000 will effect that dramatically O.o.

[Kludge]

A year in a fantastic personal finance class going over many numbers and scenarios convinced me to favor interest compounding now over potentially higher pay later.

Also convinced me to eat ramen noodles.... regularly.

[TGGRV]

That's because of all the grants, scholarships and loans which make prices go up. Prices would be half of this without them.

If the college guy invests all the excess money(what he makes more than the non-college one) he will have more when he retires.

[Objectivist]

No shit. But it gets the foot in the door.

Not if you build your own house like me. I never had to show myself my degree to start my businesses, I just did it.

Then I never thought the sum total of me was going to be my degree.

[Objectivist]

Then of course you can always get a government staffer position and the People via taxation will pay off your student loans....
http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/m/23206676/public-pays-for-government-staffers-college-loans.htm

[G-Wohl]

Then of course you can always get a government staffer position and the People via taxation will pay off your student loans....
http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/m/23206676/public-pays-for-government-staffers-college-loans.htm

As an Objectivist, surely you're aware that those who truly live a rational life, and condemn handouts and the nanny state, are morally justified in taking publicly-funded financial aid?

The looters have stolen far more from you than any tax-funded handouts could ever make up for.

[DAaaMan64]

That's because of all the grants, scholarships and loans which make prices go up. Prices would be half of this without them.

If the college guy invests all the excess money(what he makes more than the non-college one) he will have more when he retires.

Oh thats BS. Scholarships are completely volunteering submission of wealth. Federal loans on the other hand probably totally raise prices.


That hasn't been my experience. :(

Oh, my condolences. It depends on the industry and the demand. I'm in one of the biggest video game colleges in the world. We have almost a 95% chance of being hired out of it. With exception of right now because of the economy :/ LOL

[heavenlyboy34]

Oh thats BS. Scholarships are completely volunteering submission of wealth. Federal loans on the other hand probably totally raise prices.



Oh, my condolences. It depends on the industry and the demand. I'm in one of the biggest video game colleges in the world. We have almost a 95% chance of being hired out of it. With exception of right now because of the economy :/ LOL

When I started at design school, it was a high demand career. By the time I graduated, the economy went to crap and no one would hire applicants without years of experience (the situation remains this way still). :p

[Bman]

In arts you will do many things for free before you build a name and reputation worth money.

[heavenlyboy34]

In arts you will do many things for free before you build a name and reputation worth money.

I'm learning this the hard way. :(:p

[Bman]

I'm learning this the hard way. :(:p

Unless you have family in the biz it's the only way. I remeber getting $17 for one of the first shows my band played.

Band member 1: "How much did we get?"

Band member 2: "$17"

Band member 1: "per person?"

Band member 2: "no $17 to split"

That moment was a real eye opener.

[Objectivist]

As an Objectivist, surely you're aware that those who truly live a rational life, and condemn handouts and the nanny state, are morally justified in taking publicly-funded financial aid?

The looters have stolen far more from you than any tax-funded handouts could ever make up for.

My posting was in the realm of pouring gasoline on the campfire.

[Optatron]

best part is, you don't need a college degree to figure this out!

[Optatron]

keep in mind though, that a mutual fund is economy stability dependent, so it might not be as easy as having one fund, but rather, learning over time to invest, save, diversify and so on.

[Optatron]

That's because of all the grants, scholarships and loans which make prices go up. Prices would be half of this without them.


Demand and supply would both drop as well.

So would industries related to it, dorm renting, textbooks, school supplies, temp agencies, tutors, ....a billion dollar industry means many jobs are connected to this mine, NOT TO SAY we should keep propping up the system, but many people aren't willing to face the fact some jobs don't deserve to exist and some people don't need to be paid for some tasks.



If the college guy invests all the excess money(what he makes more than the non-college one) he will have more when he retires.

he might even retire early, or never retire but instead always work while vacationing.

[Agent CSL]

Thank God I chose not to go to college, but instead to educate myself through internet, books, and experience. Every few days I hear of horror stories and regrets from those who chose to go to college while I still make more than them at my job because of my self-taught computer skills.

[eduardo89]

Thank God I chose not to go to college, but instead to educate myself through internet, books, and experience. Every few days I hear of horror stories and regrets from those who chose to go to college while I still make more than them at my job because of my self-taught computer skills.

I chose the best of both worlds...i'm doing my degree at one of te top 10 business schools in the world, but i still take as much time as i can to educate myself. I know that i won't learn everything i need at uni, but i know that in today's job market, you simply can't get hired to a high earning position without at least a masters...obviously that depends on your line of work, but i'm planning on going into mining and resources and i doubt i have any realistic chance of being hired into a managerial position without university

[rockandrollsouls]

Well, here's the thing for the young ones here....

Do what you love. Whether you want to be a financial analyst or fix cars, a strong argument can be made that your time and its value compounds much more quickly than any money you may earn.

As for the argument about ramen noodles so you can take advantage of compounding interest......really? Do you want to eat garbage meals now so you can hoard money and "potentially" have a shot with it when you're too old for it to do you much good?

Let me ask you something.....what's more valuable to you? Using that money now to treat yourself to some meals eating out....a nice vacation to get away for a bit at this point in time, varied and sparingly and wisely until you die....or would you rather eat junk and suffer and hoard it all so you might find something to do with it and maybe someone to do it with when you're 70?

For me, I've never been a strong proponent of "biting your nose to spite your face." Manage your money, but automate and remove the hassles that infringe on your time value; the thing that holds more value than money, in my opinion.

http://www.protolink.com/MexicanFisherman.html

read that.....consider challenge all conventional thinking and wisdom in regard to money.

[ClayTrainor]

When I started at design school, it was a high demand career. By the time I graduated, the economy went to crap and no one would hire applicants without years of experience (the situation remains this way still). :p

Don't worry about getting hired ;)

www.elance.com

www.99designs.com

There's much more money in freelancing, if you're any good :)

[TGGRV]

Demand and supply would both drop as well.

So would industries related to it, dorm renting, textbooks, school supplies, temp agencies, tutors, ....a billion dollar industry means many jobs are connected to this mine, NOT TO SAY we should keep propping up the system, but many people aren't willing to face the fact some jobs don't deserve to exist and some people don't need to be paid for some tasks.



he might even retire early, or never retire but instead always work while vacationing.
Demand won't drop if prices are adjusted. And neither of those businesses don't make any jobs and even the jobs that make are replaceable. And most people are utter idiots. They need to either accept the fact that college tuition is too high artificially and so are all the other jobs or shut the fuck up and get tons of loans to go to school. This reminds me of the morons in California who don't want bigger taxes, but want even more public services and a balanced budget. I hope that most Americans aren't this dumb. Who gives a shit about jobs? Jobs are irrelevant as long as they don't produce something useful. Before 1989 here, everyone had jobs. The products were so crappy that a lot of them were getting rusty outside the factories gates. But hey, they had jobs.

EDIT:DAaaMan64, so if everyone would have a scholarship....

[heavenlyboy34]

Don't worry about getting hired ;)

www.elance.com (http://www.elance.com)

www.99designs.com (http://www.99designs.com)

There's much more money in freelancing, if you're any good :)

I had a teacher who did freelancing once. I'll look into it. :):cool:

[rockandrollsouls]

I had a teacher who did freelancing once. I'll look into it. :):cool:

Offer free lancing through craigslist rather than elance. Elance is great if you're hiring because everyone tries to undercut eachother.....but it's not good if you're looking for that same reason.

[JeNNiF00F00]

That hasn't been my experience. :(

Same. I have 2 degrees and they havent done SHIT for me.

[Optatron]

Demand won't drop if prices are adjusted. And neither of those businesses don't make any jobs and even the jobs that make are replaceable. And most people are utter idiots. They need to either accept the fact that college tuition is too high artificially and so are all the other jobs or shut the fuck up and get tons of loans to go to school. This reminds me of the morons in California who don't want bigger taxes, but want even more public services and a balanced budget. I hope that most Americans aren't this dumb. Who gives a shit about jobs? Jobs are irrelevant as long as they don't produce something useful.


You'll be disappointed.

wrong, nobody cares about production either, they care about money to sit on their ass.



Before 1989 here, everyone had jobs. The products were so crappy that a lot of them were getting rusty outside the factories gates. But hey, they had jobs.

EDIT:DAaaMan64, so if everyone would have a scholarship....

[heavenlyboy34]

thanks to everyone who participated nicely in this thread! :) ~hugs all around~

[rockandrollsouls]

Same. I have 2 degrees and they havent done SHIT for me.

Degrees in what? Psychology? History? Literature? Art History? Where did you get the degree from? a Tier 1 or Tier 4 school?

Some degrees are arguably more useful than others. Accountants are always in demand.....but history teachers aren't.

I think their is still value in college, but only in certain degrees and programs. You have to be smart about it.

[Bman]

Degrees in what? Psychology? History? Literature? Art History? Where did you get the degree from? a Tier 1 or Tier 4 school?

Some degrees are arguably more useful than others. Accountants are always in demand.....but history teachers aren't.

I think their is still value in college, but only in certain degrees and programs. You have to be smart about it.

There's always value in education. It's just there are many factors on whether or not that education has any value. There's too much emphasis on level of education rather than reason for an education. I use to give my guidance counselors some mighty big headaches. The shock on my college counselors face was the best. I saw him once to tell him it was the only appointment he would ever see me for.

[youngbuck]

My goal is to become a physician. I gotta go to school in that case :)

[andrewh817]

It seems to me that most people with newly earned degrees are working the same jobs high school graduates are anyways.....

[heavenlyboy34]

My goal is to become a physician. I gotta go to school in that case :)

I'm not familiar with the field-could you work for a professional physicist (as an assistant or whatever) to get the same or better training you would in school? :confused:

[ClayTrainor]

The fact that school prices constantly rise, while educational information has never been more accessible and cheap (internet), is a huge warning sign that the system isn't worth investing in.

if you want to be a doctor, scientists or somethign like that, than yea but, people who spend tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars to study Art, Business, marketing, etc. need to seriously look into the valuable, and practical forms of education that can be found MUCH cheaper.

I have friends with marketing and business degrees, tacked with student debt, handing out resumes for jobs. One of my friend is delivering pizzas with his expensive degree. I have no degree, yet I figured out how to start and run a successful business, based on information i learned online, while working at another job.

Those who waste money studying marketing in school are falling behind those who study marketing online, let me tell you ;)

Courses are evolving far slower, than the information that can be found online.

[heavenlyboy34]

The fact that school prices constantly rise, while educational information has never been more accessible and cheap (internet), is a huge warning sign that the system isn't worth investing in.

if you want to be a doctor, scientists or somethign like that, than yea but, people who spend tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars to study Art, Business, marketing, etc. need to seriously look into the valuable, and practical forms of education that can be found MUCH cheaper.

I have friends with marketing and business degrees, tacked with student debt, handing out resumes for jobs. One of my friend is delivering pizzas with his expensive degree. I have no degree, yet I figured out how to start and run a successful business, based on information i learned online, while working at another job.

Those who waste money studying marketing in school are falling behind those who study marketing online, let me tell you ;)

Courses are evolving far slower, than the information that can be found online.

I agree 100%.

[youngbuck]

I'm not familiar with the field-could you work for a professional physicist (as an assistant or whatever) to get the same or better training you would in school? :confused:

Nah, you misread what I said. Physician, meaning medical doctor,osteopathic doctor, or naturopathic doctor. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/physician

My dad has a master's in solid state physics, so I definitely know the difference. ;):)

[ChaosControl]

If I knew what I knew now, I wouldn't have bothered with college.
Don't go to college to make money, that is a stupid thing to do. If money is your goal, you are indeed better of working at a young age and immediately investing. Getting 10-30% per year is not that difficult if you know what you're doing.

The only reason to go to college is for careers that require such, like being a doctor or lawyer or some other thing.

[heavenlyboy34]

Mired in Debt and Facing a Job Shortage
College Students Learn a Bitter Lesson About the Higher-Ed Bubble (http://www.lewrockwell.com/spl/student-load-debt.html)

[heavenlyboy34]

Nah, you misread what I said. Physician, meaning medical doctor,osteopathic doctor, or naturopathic doctor. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/physician (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/physician)

My dad has a master's in solid state physics, so I definitely know the difference. ;):)

Sowwy...read it too fast(multitasking). :(

[youngbuck]

Sowwy...read it too fast(multitasking). :(

Yea I figured, no sweat.

[TCE]

Nah, you misread what I said. Physician, meaning medical doctor,osteopathic doctor, or naturopathic doctor. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/physician

My dad has a master's in solid state physics, so I definitely know the difference. ;):)

As someone who has looked into this heavily, a Naturopath, while infinitely valuable in around ten years, will be making little to nothing in the interim. So, unless you have some hook-ups, the market, for the most part, just isn't there yet. Your choice will absolutely pay off, but there will be some dry years for sure. Sounds like you know more than me though, good luck to you.

[AZJoe]

1097482304044367873

[oyarde]

I never pd for school , my employers did .

[specsaregood]

I never pd for school , my employers did .

Still, I tell people all the time the best investment I made was paying for DW's nursing degree RN from the local community college.
Cost: 9k for the degree. She got a job out of that making about 50k/year with benefits. After a little over half a decade of doing that she has been averaging about 80k/year plus benefits, plus 401k matching, plus they have paid for her bachelors and now her masters (no money spent on those degrees other than books).

hands down best return on my money, ever.

[oyarde]

Yep , community college is the way to go . Pay as you go .

[Danke]

A year in a fantastic personal finance class going over many numbers and scenarios convinced me to favor interest compounding now over potentially higher pay later.

Also convinced me to eat ramen noodles.... regularly.


I miss Kludge...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=907SUATLNC0

[Anti Globalist]

If I ever have kids I'm giving them the option of not going to college. Hopefully thats the option they end up choosing.