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bobbyw24
06-30-2009, 09:29 AM
http://yahoo.com

Reverse discrimination ruling leaves confusion
By DAVE COLLINS, Associated Press Writer Dave Collins, Associated Press Writer Tue Jun 30, 3:06 am ET

HARTFORD, Conn. – The Supreme Court ruling in favor of white New Haven firefighters who said they were victims of reverse discrimination will probably leave employers confused, civil rights advocates and labor attorneys say.

The court ruled 5-4 Monday that the white firefighters were denied promotions unfairly because of their race, reversing a decision that high court nominee Sonia Sotomayor endorsed as a federal appeals court judge.

The majority of justices said the city was wrong to scrap a promotion exam because no African-Americans and only two Hispanic firefighters were likely to be made lieutenants or captains based on the results. The city said it had acted to avoid a lawsuit from minorities.

While the court upheld that employers still have an obligation under civil rights laws to avoid discrimination in hiring, promoting and compensating workers, the ruling creates confusing standards on how to meet that obligation, said Wade Henderson, president and chief executive of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights.

"Employers will now face a convoluted minefield when attempting to protect workers from discrimination," Henderson said. "Employers are looking for bright lines ... they're looking for clear directives to help them better understand how they can engage in nondiscriminatory decisions."

The ruling is confusing, Henderson said, because the high court seemed to say that while New Haven officials tried to avoid discrimination, throwing out the test was discriminatory. "It puts employers in a real quandary," he said.

The Obama administration should direct the government's civil rights agencies to offer guidance on the ruling, said Shirley Wilcher, executive director of the American Association for Affirmative Action.

"In the meantime, we're scratching our heads," she said. "We're concerned about the impact on employers who want to comply with the law and do not want to discriminate ... and it's not clear how to do that."

Bernard Jacques, a Hartford-based labor and employment attorney, also believes the ruling will stump many employers. The court ruled that test results alone are not enough to prove discrimination, that a "strong basis in evidence" is needed, but justices didn't define that phrase, Jacques said.

Justice Anthony Kennedy said in the ruling, "Fear of litigation alone cannot justify an employer's reliance on race to the detriment of individuals who passed the examinations and qualified for promotions." He was joined in the majority by Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Samuel Alito, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.

In dissent, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said the white firefighters "understandably attract this court's sympathy. But they had no vested right to promotion. Nor have other persons received promotions in preference to them."

Justices David Souter, Stephen Breyer and John Paul Stevens signed onto Ginsburg's dissent, which she read aloud in court Monday. Speaking dismissively of the majority opinion, she predicted the court's ruling "will not have staying power."

The ruling is "a sign that individual achievement should not take a back seat to race or ethnicity," said Karen Torre, the firefighters' attorney. "I think the import of the decision is that cities cannot bow to politics and pressure and lobbying by special interest groups or act to achieve racial quotas."

At a news conference on the steps of city hall in New Haven, firefighter Frank Ricci, the lead plaintiff in the lawsuit, said the ruling showed that "if you work hard, you can succeed in America."

New Haven, trying to fill senior fire department vacancies, gave a test to 77 candidates for lieutenant and 41 candidates for captain. Fifty-six firefighters passed the exams, including 41 whites, nine blacks and six Hispanics. But of those, only 17 whites and two Hispanics could expect promotion.

The city eventually decided not to use the exam to determine promotions. It said it acted because it might have been vulnerable to claims that the exam had a "disparate impact" on minorities in violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

The white firefighters said the decision violated the same law's prohibition on intentional discrimination. Twenty white plaintiffs sued.

The city declined to validate the test after it was given, a step that could have identified flaws or determined that there were no serious problems with it. In addition, city officials could not say what was wrong with the test, other than the racially skewed results.

"The city could be liable for disparate-impact discrimination only if the examinations were not job related" or the city failed to use a less discriminatory alternative, Kennedy said. "We conclude that there is no strong basis in evidence to establish that the test was deficient in either of these respects."

But Ginsburg said the court should have assessed "the starkly disparate results" of the exams against the backdrop of historical and ongoing inequality in the New Haven fire department. As of 2003, she said, only one of the city's 21 fire captains was African-American.

foofighter20x
06-30-2009, 09:35 AM
What the hell was so hard to understand?

1. Pick a test designed not to favor any racial group.
2. Ignore any disparate impact results and promote.
3. If you don't like the fact that #2 occurred, try harder to devise an even better test under step 1. :rolleyes:

Easy-peazy lemon squeezy.

dannno
06-30-2009, 09:40 AM
"We're concerned about the impact on employers who want to comply with the law and do not want to discriminate ... and it's not clear how to do that."




How about not discriminating based on RACE :rolleyes:

Feenix566
06-30-2009, 09:41 AM
The only reason they're confused is because they all think that only minorities can be the victims of discrimination. (which is a discriminatory point of view to begin with)

bobbyw24
06-30-2009, 09:43 AM
How about not discriminating based on RACE :rolleyes:

But that would be politically incorrect

Warrior_of_Freedom
06-30-2009, 09:45 AM
As a victim of reverse discrimination, it bothers me a lot. After a lot of thinking I really don't understand why it is illegal for employers to discriminate under affirmative action laws, etc. Don't people have the freedom to decide who and who not to hire, even if it's based on something irrelevant as race, religion, etc?
Oh well.

Dr.3D
06-30-2009, 09:47 AM
I don't know how many employment forms I filled out that had check boxes for race on them.

It would be simple not to have any information about what race a person is on any forms and thus there could be no discrimination based on race taken from the forms.

When the tests are graded, it should be done by an independent group who have no information about those who took the tests.

Standing Like A Rock
06-30-2009, 09:49 AM
What is so hard to understand?

Reward individuals based on their individual merits. It is only because of their collectivist mindset that they get confused.

bobbyw24
06-30-2009, 09:49 AM
What Really Divides Us?

by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

Yet it is the federal government more than anything else that divides us along race, class, religion, and gender lines. The federal government, through its taxes, restrictive regulations, corporate subsidies, racial set-asides, and welfare programs, plays far too large a role in determining who succeeds and who fails in our society. This government "benevolence" crowds out genuine goodwill between men by institutionalizing group thinking, thus making each group suspicious that others are receiving more of the government loot. Americans know that factors other than merit in the free market often play a part in the success of some, and this leads to resentment and hostility between us.

Still, the left argues that stringent federal laws are needed to combat racism, always implying of course that southern states are full of bigoted rednecks who would oppress minorities if not for the watchful eye of Washington. They ignore, however, the incredible divisiveness created by their collectivist big-government policies.

Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans only as members of groups and never as individuals. Racists believe that all individual who share superficial physical characteristics are alike; as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. Their intense focus on race is inherently racist, because it views individuals only as members of racial groups.

Conservatives and libertarians should fight back and challenge the myth that collectivist liberals care more about racism. Modern liberalism, however well intentioned, is a byproduct of the same collectivist thinking that characterizes racism. The continued insistence on group thinking only inflames racial tensions.

The true antidote to racism is liberty. Liberty means having a limited, constitutional government devoted to the protection of individual rights rather than group claims. Liberty means free-market capitalism, which rewards individual achievement and competence, not skin color, gender, or ethnicity. In a free market, businesses that discriminate lose customers, goodwill, and valuable employees – while rational businesses flourish by choosing the most qualified employees and selling to all willing buyers. More importantly, in a free society every citizen gains a sense of himself as an individual, rather than developing a group or victim mentality. This leads to a sense of individual responsibility and personal pride, making skin color irrelevant. Rather than looking to government to correct what is essentially a sin of the heart, we should understand that reducing racism requires a shift from group thinking to an emphasis on individualism.

December 24, 2002

Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.

bobbyw24
06-30-2009, 09:50 AM
What is so hard to understand?

Reward individuals based on their individual merits. It is only because of their collectivist mindset that they get confused.

"Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans only as members of groups and never as individuals. Racists believe that all individual who share superficial physical characteristics are alike; as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. Their intense focus on race is inherently racist, because it views individuals only as members of racial groups."

Cong. Ron Paul 12/24/2002 US House of Rep.

Standing Like A Rock
06-30-2009, 09:55 AM
It should not be called "reverse discrimination". By calling it "reverse discrimination" you are implying that minorities are the only ones who can be straight up discriminated against (which is discriminatory itself) and that you have already discriminated against them. Whether it is a minority or a non-minority being discriminated against it is discrimination just the same.

Brian4Liberty
06-30-2009, 11:42 AM
What I have not seen mentioned in this story is the ex-post-facto nature of the Employers decision. How can they give a test that determines qualification for promotion, and then drop the whole thing because they didn't like the outcome?

I wish my favorite sports team could do that. "Gee, didn't like the way that game turned out. Let's annul that game and try something else".

ChaosControl
06-30-2009, 12:33 PM
What is so hard? Simply ignore race as a factor in anything.

Dr.3D
06-30-2009, 12:35 PM
What is so hard? Simply ignore race as a factor in anything.

That is the logical approach. :)

Stary Hickory
06-30-2009, 12:48 PM
How about not discriminating based on RACE :rolleyes:

Holy smokes really? You mean not being racist means not judging people based on race?

It's so simple! I am tired of the REAL racists in society(collectivists) spreading their propaganda. I mean the very claim they make that a test could possibly be racially biased already shows that they are racist to the core anyways.

Stary Hickory
06-30-2009, 12:51 PM
I don't know how many employment forms I filled out that had check boxes for race on them.

It would be simple not to have any information about what race a person is on any forms and thus there could be no discrimination based on race taken from the forms.

When the tests are graded, it should be done by an independent group who have no information about those who took the tests.

Yes but the racist collectivists are saying that the tests themselves are racially biased. Which taken to the logical conclusion, they believe that knowledge is racist...which taken to it's logical conclusion means that people that think like this are pure racists.

TastyWheat
06-30-2009, 12:57 PM
dis crim i nate (v) : to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit

The Obama administration should direct the government's civil rights agencies to offer guidance on the ruling, said Shirley Wilcher, executive director of the American Association for Affirmative Action.

"In the meantime, we're scratching our heads," she said. "We're concerned about the impact on employers who want to comply with the law and do not want to discriminate ... and it's not clear how to do that."
They were going to promote a certain number of individuals based solely on their merit/performance. How the hell could that be discriminatory? READ A BOOK!

ItsTime
06-30-2009, 01:14 PM
What Really Divides Us?

by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

Yet it is the federal government more than anything else that divides us along race, class, religion, and gender lines. The federal government, through its taxes, restrictive regulations, corporate subsidies, racial set-asides, and welfare programs, plays far too large a role in determining who succeeds and who fails in our society. This government "benevolence" crowds out genuine goodwill between men by institutionalizing group thinking, thus making each group suspicious that others are receiving more of the government loot. Americans know that factors other than merit in the free market often play a part in the success of some, and this leads to resentment and hostility between us.

Still, the left argues that stringent federal laws are needed to combat racism, always implying of course that southern states are full of bigoted rednecks who would oppress minorities if not for the watchful eye of Washington. They ignore, however, the incredible divisiveness created by their collectivist big-government policies.

Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans only as members of groups and never as individuals. Racists believe that all individual who share superficial physical characteristics are alike; as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. Their intense focus on race is inherently racist, because it views individuals only as members of racial groups.

Conservatives and libertarians should fight back and challenge the myth that collectivist liberals care more about racism. Modern liberalism, however well intentioned, is a byproduct of the same collectivist thinking that characterizes racism. The continued insistence on group thinking only inflames racial tensions.

The true antidote to racism is liberty. Liberty means having a limited, constitutional government devoted to the protection of individual rights rather than group claims. Liberty means free-market capitalism, which rewards individual achievement and competence, not skin color, gender, or ethnicity. In a free market, businesses that discriminate lose customers, goodwill, and valuable employees – while rational businesses flourish by choosing the most qualified employees and selling to all willing buyers. More importantly, in a free society every citizen gains a sense of himself as an individual, rather than developing a group or victim mentality. This leads to a sense of individual responsibility and personal pride, making skin color irrelevant. Rather than looking to government to correct what is essentially a sin of the heart, we should understand that reducing racism requires a shift from group thinking to an emphasis on individualism.

December 24, 2002

Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.

Nice find.