Canadian health care

[Mahkato]

Man there are a lot of socialists out there: http://digg.com/health/Debunking_Canadian_health_care_myths_3

So depressing.

[Jeremy]

Yah, I saw that. #2 most popular on Digg today. Funny thing is I don't think the article is really supporting it. But Diggers think it is at least. Well I'm sure the author says he supports it, but some of the point he makes work against what he wants.

[pcosmar]

Not a fair comparison, as US health care is nearly as socialized. State/Corporate controlled.
But besides that, I have a question, and this is from personal observation.
Why do so many Canadians near the border use US health care?
Yes I live near a border town, Yes I check license plates.
I have also known Canadians that were refused care in Canada and came here and got help.
??? :confused:

[Reason]

perspective
Debunking Canadian health care myths

By Rhonda Hackett
The Denver Post
Posted:06/07/2009 01:00:00 AM MDT


As a Canadian living in the United States for the past 17 years, I am frequently asked by Americans and Canadians alike to declare one health care system as the better one.

Often I'll avoid answering, regardless of the questioner's nationality. To choose one or the other system usually translates into a heated discussion of each one's merits, pitfalls, and an intense recitation of commonly cited statistical comparisons of the two systems.

Because if the only way we compared the two systems was with statistics, there is a clear victor. It is becoming increasingly more difficult to dispute the fact that Canada spends less money on health care to get better outcomes.

Yet, the debate rages on. Indeed, it has reached a fever pitch since President Barack Obama took office, with Americans either dreading or hoping for the dawn of a single-payer health care system. Opponents of such a system cite Canada as the best example of what not to do, while proponents laud that very same Canadian system as the answer to all of America's health care problems. Frankly, both sides often get things wrong when trotting out Canada to further their respective arguments.

As America comes to grips with the reality that changes are desperately needed within its health care infrastructure, it might prove useful to first debunk some myths about the Canadian system.

Myth: Taxes in Canada are extremely high, mostly because of national health care.

In actuality, taxes are nearly equal on both sides of the border. Overall, Canada's taxes are slightly higher than those in the U.S. However, Canadians are afforded many benefits for their tax dollars, even beyond health care (e.g., tax credits, family allowance, cheaper higher education), so the end result is a wash. At the end of the day, the average after-tax income of Canadian workers is equal to about 82 percent of their gross pay. In the U.S., that average is 81.9 percent.

Myth: Canada's health care system is a cumbersome bureaucracy.

The U.S. has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world. More than 31 percent of every dollar spent on health care in the U.S. goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, etc. The provincial single-payer system in Canada operates with just a 1 percent overhead. Think about it. It is not necessary to spend a huge amount of money to decide who gets care and who doesn't when everybody is covered.

Myth: The Canadian system is significantly more expensive than that of the U.S.Ten percent of Canada's GDP is spent on health care for 100 percent of the population. The U.S. spends 17 percent of its GDP but 15 percent of its population has no coverage whatsoever and millions of others have inadequate coverage. In essence, the U.S. system is considerably more expensive than Canada's. Part of the reason for this is uninsured and underinsured people in the U.S. still get sick and eventually seek care. People who cannot afford care wait until advanced stages of an illness to see a doctor and then do so through emergency rooms, which cost considerably more than primary care services.

What the American taxpayer may not realize is that such care costs about $45 billion per year, and someone has to pay it. This is why insurance premiums increase every year for insured patients while co-pays and deductibles also rise rapidly.

Myth: Canada's government decides who gets health care and when they get it.While HMOs and other private medical insurers in the U.S. do indeed make such decisions, the only people in Canada to do so are physicians. In Canada, the government has absolutely no say in who gets care or how they get it. Medical decisions are left entirely up to doctors, as they should be.

There are no requirements for pre-authorization whatsoever. If your family doctor says you need an MRI, you get one. In the U.S., if an insurance administrator says you are not getting an MRI, you don't get one no matter what your doctor thinks — unless, of course, you have the money to cover the cost.

Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery. Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example. However, the wait has nothing to do with money per se, but everything to do with the lack of radiation therapists. Despite such waits, however, it is noteworthy that Canada boasts lower incident and mortality rates than the U.S. for all cancers combined, according to the U.S. Cancer Statistics Working Group and the Canadian Cancer Society. Moreover, fewer Canadians (11.3 percent) than Americans (14.4 percent) admit unmet health care needs.

Myth: Canadians are paying out of pocket to come to the U.S. for medical care.Most patients who come from Canada to the U.S. for health care are those whose costs are covered by the Canadian governments. If a Canadian goes outside of the country to get services that are deemed medically necessary, not experimental, and are not available at home for whatever reason (e.g., shortage or absence of high tech medical equipment; a longer wait for service than is medically prudent; or lack of physician expertise), the provincial government where you live fully funds your care. Those patients who do come to the U.S. for care and pay out of pocket are those who perceive their care to be more urgent than it likely is.

Myth: Canada is a socialized health care system in which the government runs hospitals and where doctors work for the government.Princeton University health economist Uwe Reinhardt says single-payer systems are not "socialized medicine" but "social insurance" systems because doctors work in the private sector while their pay comes from a public source. Most physicians in Canada are self-employed. They are not employees of the government nor are they accountable to the government. Doctors are accountable to their patients only. More than 90 percent of physicians in Canada are paid on a fee-for-service basis. Claims are submitted to a single provincial health care plan for reimbursement, whereas in the U.S., claims are submitted to a multitude of insurance providers. Moreover, Canadian hospitals are controlled by private boards and/or regional health authorities rather than being part of or run by the government.

Myth: There aren't enough doctors in Canada.

From a purely statistical standpoint, there are enough physicians in Canada to meet the health care needs of its people. But most doctors practice in large urban areas, leaving rural areas with bona fide shortages. This situation is no different than that being experienced in the U.S. Simply training and employing more doctors is not likely to have any significant impact on this specific problem. Whatever issues there are with having an adequate number of doctors in any one geographical area, they have nothing to do with the single-payer system.

And these are just some of the myths about the Canadian health care system. While emulating the Canadian system will likely not fix U.S. health care, it probably isn't the big bad "socialist" bogeyman it has been made out to be.

It is not a perfect system, but it has its merits. For people like my 55-year-old Aunt Betty, who has been waiting for 14 months for knee-replacement surgery due to a long history of arthritis, it is the superior system. Her $35,000-plus surgery is finally scheduled for next month. She has been in pain, and her quality of life has been compromised. However, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Aunt Betty — who lives on a fixed income and could never afford private health insurance, much less the cost of the surgery and requisite follow-up care — will soon sport a new, high-tech knee. Waiting 14 months for the procedure is easy when the alternative is living in pain for the rest of your life.

Rhonda Hackett of Castle Rock is a clinical psychologist.

[MRoCkEd]

Digg is a constant battle between libertarians and "progressives". Join the fight.

[Epic]

When the shout feature went away, my usefulness diminished. I had gotten like 3 submissions about ron paul or libertarian stuff to the front page before they took it away....


Digg is like 75% socialist... though the free-market libertarians are actually a bit more vocal.

Reddit is even worse though, it's ridiculous.

If this is the next generation, we're fucked. I'm 21, and in high school and college, about 2/3 of people were leftists. Where the hell do they get these ideas that government has a good track record?

Well, I guess they were taught it in public schools by socialist teachers... I still remember one high school teacher saying "Reagan didn't do anything progressive. He was a terrible president" to the class.

[pcosmar]

Debunking Canadian health care myths



Rhonda Hackett of Castle Rock is a clinical psychologist.

sort of explains it.

[MelissaWV]

If this is the next generation, we're fucked. I'm 21, and in high school and college, about 2/3 of people were leftists. Where the hell do they get these ideas that government has a good track record?

Well, I guess they were taught it in public schools by socialist teachers... I still remember one high school teacher saying "Reagan didn't do anything progressive. He was a terrible president" to the class.

I'm 28, and most of the people around me have been decidedly UNleftist. I think it's because I didn't finish college; I decided to work instead. You will encounter fewer hardcore leftists as you get further into the workforce. People stop being so free with money when they have to contribute so much to the pot :D

[down_south]

Let me give my two cents on this as I grew up in Canada...


Ten percent of Canada's GDP is spent on health care for 100 percent of the population. The U.S. spends 17 percent of its GDP but 15 percent of its population has no coverage whatsoever and millions of others have inadequate coverage.
This is wrong; the correct statement is 15% of Americans do note have health INSURANCE; this DOES NOT mean that they don’t have COVERAGE. People without health INSURANCE may be covered by Medicaid or a state run plan or may be so rich that they simple choose not to purchase health insurance. Should the rest of us have to start paying for their health care???


In essence, the U.S. system is considerably more expensive than Canada's. Part of the reason for this is uninsured and underinsured people in the U.S. still get sick and eventually seek care.
I will answer this below.


There are no requirements for pre-authorization whatsoever. If your family doctor says you need an MRI, you get one.
Yeah, you get one….just not always in Canada. There are many Canadians who have to go to Buffalo, NY to simply get an MRI. Go to youtube and watch the Deat Meat videos if you really want to know what’s going on.


There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery.
The why did a politician, Belinda Stronach, who had cancer in June, 2007 fly to UCLA to have surgery (and she paid for it herself!). Perhaps cancer surgery was elective.


Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example.
But what about everything else? Why is it that when an American has to wait for healthcare because they can’t afford it, it is a bad thing but when a Canadian waits for health care for no good reason then……well…..at least they didn’t have to pay the bill. And why does this writer talk about the people in America who wait until advanced stages of an illness to see a doctor and somewhow think that this doesn’t happen in Canada? Let me tell you about Susan Warner. Ms. Warner’s knee went out September, 2003 (bone on bone, cartilidge was gone) and she was put on a waiting list for surgery; she would need to wait 12-18 months (she finally had a knee replacement after 16 months). In the meantime, she was prescribes oxycontin for her pain and her doses kept going up and up as her pain increased. She became a drug addict and lost all of her self esteem; she had to go for drug treatment; unfortunately, there was a 6 month wait….
Because the Canadian system failed to provide timely treatment, we have new problems (a drug addiction and loss of self esteem) which have increased the cost of medical care. Seems like it works both ways.


Most patients who come from Canada to the U.S. for health care are those whose costs are covered by the Canadian governments. If a Canadian goes outside of the country to get services that are deemed medically necessary, not experimental, and are not available at home for whatever reason (e.g., shortage or absence of high tech medical equipment; a longer wait for service than is medically prudent; or lack of physician expertise), the provincial government where you live fully funds your care.
HAHAHA, I love this one! First off, there are lawsuits over this. Joe Canada can’t get an MRI that his doctor says is necessary and that he needs right away so he goes to America. He comes back and hands the government the bill. The government says “Screw you, we ain’t paying. This was not medically necessary” So now we have three problems:

1) The government decides what is medically necessary (kind of like insurance companies)
2) The government decides what it will and will not be responsible for paying (kind of like insurance companies)
3) The government is finding itself facing more legal action (kind of like insurance companies)

So basically, the government has become the insurance company. Now, if we are not happy with these insurance companies then why would we want to turn the government into the biggest (and only) insurance company in the country??

[down_south]

As a former resident of Canada, I have noticed several things that the media and government are not telling us. Let me then list for you some of the differences between the Canadian and American health care systems and why we are pending more in America on health care.

1) THE LEGAL SYSTEM. It is odd to me that the same people who complain that doctors perform unnecessary tests fail to make the connection between the cost of performing such tests and the cost of not performing them; not performing them can result in a law suit. This is why a trip to the ER can cost a few thousand dollars. The legal system discourages doctors from admitting their mistakes which results in longer recoveries, higher costs and possibly deaths which would lead to lower life expectancy. People say Canadians don’t want American health care, well I challenge those people to find me a Canadian who wants America’s legal system. I know from experience that worker’s compensation attorneys want their clients to treat forever with bad doctors in order to drive up the cost of the claim so that they can settle for more money. Also, American doctors have to carry medical malpractice insurance and the costs of this insurance gets passed on to the customers; us.

2) WARS. We are involved in two wars which results in us spending more money on health care as our veterans require treatment. Since Canada does not have as many soldiers fighting overseas, they do not have this exposure.

3) OBESITY. Americans is slightly more obese than Canadians (although Canada is catching up) which results in more health expenditures on chronic conditions, longer recovery times for such things as knee or ankle surgeries and preventable illnesses such as diabetes. And what is the most obese nation? Mexico. They are the most obese and they come here, which leads me to the next point….

4) ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. It is estimated that between 12 million and 20 million illegal immigrants live in America. We hear this all the time, but how many people is this? The low end of the estimate, 12 million, is about 4% of our population and the high end, 20 million, is about 6.5% of our population. When we say that between 12 million and 20 million illegal immigrants live in America, those numbers are equivalent to the entire population of Greece (low end) and the entire population of Australia (high end). Many of these people use our health services, which results in higher costs. The next time someone dismisses this argument, ask them what would happen if a group of people estimated to be somewhere between the entire population of New Zealand and the entire population of Switzerland walked into Mexico and demanded “free” health care? To put this in Canadian terms, what would happen if a group of people estimated to be somewhere between the entire population of Estonia (the population of Estonia is equivalent to the combined population of Greenland, Bermuda, Aruba, Barbados, Iceland and Luxembourg) and the entire population of Latvia (the population of Latvia is equivalent to the combined population of five Canadian provinces/territories; Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan, Prince Edward Island, Yukon and the Northwest Territories) walked into Canada and demanded “free” health care? Bottom line is that Canada doesn’t have this problem; their southern neighbor is not a third world country.

5) CRIME. We have more murders and car accidents than Canada which results in more being spent on health care.

6) RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT. What does it take in order to get a drug on the market in America? Well, first a drug manufacturing company has to determine the need for the drug. Then they have to create it. Then they have to test it to determine side effects. Then they have to send it to the FDA, and on and on. Now, what does it take in order to get a drug on the market in other countries. Simple…..if it’s legal in America, it is legal in that country. These research and development costs are much lower in Canada because they don’t spend as much as we do; the University of Texas spends more on the entire country of Canada. These costs of research and development must be recovered and are passed on to the customer (kind of like medical malpractice insurance).

7) BACK SURGERIES. There are many back surgeries performed in the United States every year despite their high failure rate. Do you know what the definition of a successful back surgery is? It is a reduction of 3 or more points on the pain scale. The pain scales is simply a doctor asking “On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate your pain?” and you give a number. Let’s say your pain is a 9 out of 10, which is very bad. You then have back surgery and the doctor says “Now that you’ve had surgery, how would you rate your pain?” If you say your pain is now a 6 out of ten then the surgery is considered to be a success even though you are still in constant pain and you still require medical treatment on a consistent basis. Fortune 500 companies spend over $500 million a year on avoidable back surgeries for their workers although they may not relieve pain.

8) ADMINISTRATIVE COSTS. About one-fifth of health care dollars in America are spent on administrative costs. Socialized medicine is not the only way to reduce administrative costs; health savings accounts can do the same thing.

9) CANADIANS COMING TO AMERICA. Not only do our neighbors from the south come to America but so do our neighbors from the north. If Canadians are paying for health care here, this increases the amount of money spent on health care in this country which drives up the % of GDP spent on health care in America (which is a crappy argument from supporters of socialized medicine but I will not get into that here). On the flip side, if Canadians are coming here, then that means less is being spent in Canada which distorts the amount of money spent to treat Canadians.

10) RICH PEOPLE. People, such as athletes for example, get an MRI every time they feel a little pain in their arm even though it might not be necessary. This increases the amount spent on health care.