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View Full Version : What does the cap and trade legislation mean?




Warrior_of_Freedom
06-26-2009, 05:26 PM
Sorry, but I've been too busy trying to find a job to worry about all the political stuff happening, there's just too much for one mind to handle, can anyone explain to me in 3 sentences?

tangent4ronpaul
06-26-2009, 06:30 PM
Yeah - I think I can do that in one sentence...

BEND OVER AND SPREAD UM!

-t

Natalie
06-26-2009, 06:32 PM
It means the average American family will have to pay an additional $1,200 in taxes each year. Or so I've read.

torchbearer
06-26-2009, 06:35 PM
YouTube - Scalise questions former VP Al Gore about a "cap and trade" energy tax (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpEcPFSEIwQ)

Original_Intent
06-26-2009, 06:37 PM
It means you will have an even harder time finding a job once it is in effect.

We need to kill this PoS in the Senate, and we need to make sure that any contested Congressman that voted for this PoS is out next year.

Those 8 GOP that crossed party lines to support it need to be run out of town on a rail.

LiveFree79
06-26-2009, 07:17 PM
Al Gore is the biggest, slimiest, POS of the highest order. I can't stand that f'ing guy! He should have died in Vietnam. Our country would be better off!

cindy25
06-26-2009, 10:15 PM
when the electric bills double the lemmings will turn on Obama

coyote_sprit
06-26-2009, 10:21 PM
Cap'n as in to shoot down and kill and trade as to shoot down and kill trade.

Cap'n + Trade = Kill Trade....

Bruno
06-26-2009, 10:25 PM
MidAmerican Energy in Iowa hasn't raised rates in 10 years, and are running ads they will be forced to do so under Crap-n-Tax

klamath
06-26-2009, 10:30 PM
when the electric bills double the lemmings will turn on Obama

No. The tax increases will come in the form of higher gas and other energy bills. Everybody already hates those industries and will start screaming for congress to do something about those gouging bastards.
It was pretty slick move. Same move as the HMO act of the sevenities. The medical industries are now taking the hit for the high cost of health care so we have to pass national healthcare now!

Reason
06-26-2009, 10:36 PM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=197517

carmaphob
06-26-2009, 10:38 PM
midamerican energy in iowa hasn't raised rates in 10 years, and are running ads they will be forced to do so under crap-n-tax

qft...

sevin
06-26-2009, 10:40 PM
Three sentences:

For an average family, another $2000 or so a year because of higher gas, electricity, food, etc. prices.

$2 Trillion stolen from taxpayers over the next ten years.

Millions of jobs going overseas.



Yeah, it's that bad.

Warrior_of_Freedom
06-27-2009, 02:47 AM
ohh, it's that thing that for example, electricity companies need to buy a government permit to exceed x amount of emissions?

Objectivist
06-27-2009, 05:03 AM
The interesting thing in al of this is the supposed intent of reducing carbon emissions in the United States.

1.) What temperature is the target temperature?
2.) What exceptions are made for carbon not produced in the USA that are measured in the USA?
3.) Why no carbon free nuclear energy?
4.) If the planet slips into another cooling trend will we give credits to carbon producers?


And the Earth has been much cooler and much, much warmer, so how do we control that which is naturally occurring on this dynamic planet?

Who controls the planet core and the heat energy radiating into the environment, heat that is released slowly and dynamically over time?

http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm

Objectivist
06-27-2009, 05:08 AM
Europe has already had serious problems that you might not of heard about.
http://newsbusters.org/node/12378

bunklocoempire
06-27-2009, 05:11 AM
Europe has already had serious problems that you might not of heard about.
http://newsbusters.org/node/12378

Thanks for posting.

Bunkloco

123tim
06-27-2009, 06:12 AM
The interesting thing in al of this is the supposed intent of reducing carbon emissions in the United States.

1.) What temperature is the target temperature?
2.) What exceptions are made for carbon not produced in the USA that are measured in the USA?
3.) Why no carbon free nuclear energy?
4.) If the planet slips into another cooling trend will we give credits to carbon producers?


And the Earth has been much cooler and much, much warmer, so how do we control that which is naturally occurring on this dynamic planet?

Who controls the planet core and the heat energy radiating into the environment, heat that is released slowly and dynamically over time?

http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm

Such good questions.

Peace&Freedom
06-27-2009, 07:17 AM
Yet another tyrannical power and tax grab passed late on a Friday night, with only a few token hours of debate on a 1500 page bill no one has read. Hundreds of pages of provisions added at the very last minute in this and a sister bill, the contents of which will not be released to the public. This is the nexus connecting legislative coverup to the other kinds of cover-up. If we let the state get away through the back door with torture coverups, false flags, lies used to start wars, etc., how will we stop them when they cover up their theft of the economy and constitution through the front door?

At a time where there is little or no transparency in government, and extensively documented government influence over the media, the most reasonable default stance to take (in general) is to presume government/elite orchestration of events and reporting, until proven otherwise. That this is passing when everybody else is talking about dead celebrities is not an accident. The media will not cover our dead and murdered republic.

Charlie41
06-27-2009, 07:38 AM
These points are all very good points, and very valid.

But, not the worst of it. This bill is just a gate way bill for more government control.

Think about it. This bill is about carbon monoxide out put.

What comes out of your nose when you exhale?
What comes out of the ground when you till the soil? (For the non farmers, it's co2)
Cows produce co2
Cars produce co2
The place you work produces Co2, even if you do not actually produce anything, your still using electricity, witch produces C02 during the making of it.

Can you see how this allows the feds. to get their fingers into every aspect of your life?

To me the worst part is, the bill offers no solution to the supposed reason it was introduced in the first place. This, to me is just another tax, just to be taxing us. This would fall under "taxation without representation"
Junk science, is not representation!

Charlie

ItsTime
06-27-2009, 07:45 AM
It means higher energy costs, oil, gas, electric, which means higher prices on EVERYTHING. Meaning the loss of more jobs.

Number19
06-27-2009, 07:50 AM
when the electric bills double the lemmings will turn on ObamaProbably not - unless he is elected to a second term. I THINK I heard on the radio that the (House) bill doesn't go into effect until 2012, so the effects of this legislation won't appear in our economy for a good number of years.

xd9fan
06-27-2009, 07:52 AM
and some wonder why guns and ammo are flying off the shelves.....:rolleyes:

Charles Wilson
06-27-2009, 08:16 AM
Anyone who has studied geology knows that global warming is a reoccuring process (cyclical)that spans thousands and millions of years. It is my understanding that the great lakes was formed by a receding glacier. Also, man was not present on earth at that time. Even if man was present, he had not discovered fire.

This new tax is a result of corportisim whereas big government is in bed with the big corporations that are too big to fail. It is the definition of fascism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_fascism.

Unfortunately our Democratic Republic is on a glide path to financial ruin. We can only hope that circumstances will prevail in the near future whereas the Congress will wake up to this reality and reverse course before our government is completely destroyed.

On the other hand it may already be too late and we must start the rebuilding process.

Sarge
06-27-2009, 08:57 AM
Wait, wait. When you bend over they will tax you if you want them to use petroleum jelly.

Did any one hear that in the bill all states must do Ca building standards. Guessing anyone selling is going to have the expense to bring their house to standard. Then bringing old house to green clean standard. How much to do that on a 30 or 100 year old house? You have to add those plugs to your house for the electric cars you don't yet before you can sell your house.

If this is not killed in the Senate we are all in trouble. McCain is going to be a problem in Az.

40 percent of 2 trillion going to out of the country when people are loosing their houses and jobs here?

My guess is they will try to ram this though the Senate before the 4th. Need to get some Dem's in the Senate to see the travesty of this bill. Fillabuster or what ever it takes in the Senate.

I am for clean, but not cleaning out our clocks.

newbitech
06-27-2009, 09:37 AM
this excellent piece comes from a larger column. If you have the time, I suggest you read the entire Rolling Stones piece from Matt Taibbi. Rolling Stone doesn't have an online service, so I may just have to get it delivered.

Thanks to the folks over at ZeroHedge
http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/06/goldman-sachs-engineering-every-major.html
market-ticker http://tickerforum.org/cgi-ticker/akcs-www?post=100232&page=1 and somethingaweful http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3159732

Wednesday, June 24, 2009

Goldman Sachs: "Engineering Every Major Market Manipulation Since The Great Depression" (http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/06/goldman-sachs-engineering-every-major.html)

Posted by Tyler Durden at 2:58 PM (http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/06/goldman-sachs-engineering-every-major.html)
With a subtitle like "From tech stocks to high gas prices, Goldman Sachs has engineered every major market manipulation since the Great Depression - and they're about to do it again" run, don't walk, to your nearest kiosk and buy Matt Taibbi's latest piece in Rolling Stone magazine. One of the best comprehensive profiles of Government Sachs done to date. Speaking of GS, they sure must be busy today, now that Bernanke is about to be impeached and take the fall for all their machinations.




BUBBLE #6 - GLOBAL WARMING
Fast-Forward to today. It's early June in Washington, D.C. Barack Obama, a popular young politician whose leading private campaign donor was an investment bank called Goldman Sachs - its employees paid some $981,000 to his campaign - sits in the White House. Having seamlessly navigated the political minefield of the bailout era, Goldman is once again back to its old business, scouting out loopholes in a new government-created market with the aid of a new set of alumni occupying key government jobs.

AS ENVISIONED BY GOLDMAN, THE FIGHT TO STOP GLOBAL WARMING WILL BECOME A "CARBON MARKET" WORTH $1 TRILLION A YEAR.

Gone are Hank Paulson and Neel Kashkari; in their place are Treasury chief of staff Mark Patterson and CFTC chief Gary Gensler, both former Goldmanites. (Gensler was the firm's co-head of finance) And instead of credit derivatives or oil futures or mortgage-backed CDOs, the new game in town, the next bubble, is in carbon credits - a booming trillion-dollar market that barely even exists yet, but will if the Democratic Party that it gave $4,452,585 to in the last election manages to push into existence a groundbreaking new commodities bubble, disguised as an "environmental plan," called cap-and-trade.

The new carbon-credit market is a virtual repeat of the commodities-market casino that's been kind to Goldman, except it has one delicious new wrinkle: If the plan goes forward as expected, the rise in prices will be government-mandated. Goldman won't even have to rig the game. It will be rigged in advance.

Here's how it works: If the bill passes; there will be limits for coal plants, utilities, natural-gas distributors and numerous other industries on the amount of carbon emissions (a.k.a. greenhouse gases) they can produce per year. If the companies go over their allotment, they will be able to buy "allocations" or credits from other companies that have managed to produce fewer emissions. President Obama conservatively estimates that about $646 billions worth of carbon credits will be auctioned in the first seven years; one of his top economic aides speculates that the real number might be twice or even three times that amount.

The feature of this plan that has special appeal to speculators is that the "cap" on carbon will be continually lowered by the government, which means that carbon credits will become more and more scarce with each passing year. Which means that this is a brand-new commodities market where the main commodity to be traded is guaranteed to rise in price over time. The volume of this new market will be upwards of a trillion dollars annually; for comparison's sake, the annual combined revenues of an electricity suppliers in the U.S. total $320 billion.

Goldman wants this bill. The plan is (1) to get in on the ground floor of paradigm-shifting legislation, (2) make sure that they're the profit-making slice of that paradigm and (3) make sure the slice is a big slice. Goldman started pushing hard for cap-and-trade long ago, but things really ramped up last year when the firm spent $3.5 million to lobby climate issues. (One of their lobbyists at the time was none other than Patterson, now Treasury chief of staff.) Back in 2005, when Hank Paulson was chief of Goldman, he personally helped author the bank's environmental policy, a document that contains some surprising elements for a firm that in all other areas has been consistently opposed to any sort of government regulation. Paulson's report argued that "voluntary action alone cannot solve the climate-change problem." A few years later, the bank's carbon chief, Ken Newcombe, insisted that cap-and-trade alone won't be enough to fix the climate problem and called for further public investments in research and development. Which is convenient, considering that 'Goldman made early investments in wind power (it bought a subsidiary called Horizon Wind Energy), renewable diesel (it is an investor in a firm called Changing World Technologies) and solar power (it partnered with BP Solar), exactly the kind of deals that will prosper if the government forces energy producers to use cleaner energy. As Paulson said at the time, "We're not making those investments to lose money."

The bank owns a 10 percent stake in the Chicago Climate Exchange, where the carbon credits will be traded. Moreover, Goldman owns a minority stake in Blue Source LLC, a Utah-based firm that sells carbon credits of the type that will be in great demand if the bill passes. Nobel Prize winner Al Gore, who is intimately involved with the planning of cap-and-trade, started up a company called Generation Investment Management with three former bigwigs from Goldman Sachs Asset Management, David Blood, Mark Ferguson and Peter Harris. Their business? Investing in carbon offsets. There's also a $500 million Green Growth Fund set up by a Goldmanite to invest in green-tech ... the list goes on and on. Goldman is ahead of the headlines again, just waiting for someone to make it rain in the right spot. Will this market be bigger than the energy-futures market?

"Oh, it'll dwarf it," says a former staffer on the House energy committee.

Well, you might say, who cares? If cap-and-trade succeeds, won't we all be saved from the catastrophe of global warming? Maybe - but cap-and-trade, as envisioned by Goldman, is really just a carbon tax structured so that private interests collect the revenues. Instead of simply imposing a fixed government levy on carbon pollution and forcing unclean energy producers to pay for the mess they make, cap-and trade will allow a small tribe of greedy-as-hell Wall Street swine to turn yet another commodities market into a private tax-collection scheme. This is worse than the bailout: It allows the bank to seize taxpayer money before it's even collected.

"If it's going to be a tax, I would prefer that Washington set the tax and collect it," says Michael Masters, the hedge fund director who spoke out against oil-futures speculation. "But we're saying that Wall Street can set the tax, and Wall Street can collect the tax. That's the last thing in the world I want. It's just asinine."

Cap-and-trade is going to happen. Or, if it doesn't, something like it will. The moral is the same as for all the other bubbles that Goldman helped create, from 1929 to 2009. In almost every case, the very same bank that behaved recklessly for years, weighing down the system with toxic loans and predatory debt, and accomplishing nothing but massive bonuses for a few bosses, has been rewarded with mountains of virtually free money and government guarantees - while the actual victims in this mess, ordinary taxpayers, are the ones paying for it.

It's not always easy to accept the reality of what we now routinely allow these people to get away with; there's a kind of collective denial that kicks in when a country goes through what America has gone through lately, when a people lose as much prestige and status as we have in the past few years. You can't really register the fact that you're no longer a citizen of a thriving first-world democracy, that you're no longer above getting robbed in broad daylight, because like an amputee, you can still sort of feel things that are no longer there.

But this is it. This is the world we live in now. And in this world, some of us have to play by the rules, while others get a note from the principal excusing them from homework till the end of time, plus 10 billion free dollars in a paper bag to buy lunch. It's a gangster state, running on gangster economics, and even prices can't be trusted anymore; there are hidden taxes in every buck you pay. And maybe we can't stop it, but we should at least know where it's all going.

Sandman33
06-27-2009, 11:19 AM
al gore is the biggest, slimiest, pos of the highest order. I can't stand that f'ing guy! He should have died in vietnam. Our country would be better off!

+1776

BenIsForRon
06-27-2009, 12:54 PM
Damn, this bill gives subsidies to coal companies too. So all this bill does is strengthen coal, which in the long run will do more damage to our environment. This really sucks.

HOLLYWOOD
06-27-2009, 01:37 PM
Al Gore is the biggest, slimiest, POS of the highest order. I can't stand that f'ing guy! He should have died in Vietnam. Our country would be better off!


I'm glad Dee Snider of Twisted Sister gave a big middle finger to Al and Tipper Gore!


I Advised everyone last year in July 08 to dump Oil/Commodities... that the Masters of the Market Manipulations; Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan Chase are controlling it all. I'm sure there's the secondaries that follow the masters calls, but you look how GS called Crude Oil to go to $200 a barrel and they dump it near the 75% markers. Same when they were saying Crude Oil 09 to $85... dumping it after they get the secondaries and suckers to run it up on speculation.

We are all, (except the insiders) being played like a grand piano.

Wednesday, June 24, 2009

Goldman Sachs: "Engineering Every Major Market Manipulation Since The Great Depression" (http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/06/goldman-sachs-engineering-every-major.html)

Posted by Tyler Durden at 2:58 PM (http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/06/goldman-sachs-engineering-every-major.html)
With a subtitle like "From tech stocks to high gas prices, Goldman Sachs has engineered every major market manipulation since the Great Depression - and they're about to do it again" run, don't walk, to your nearest kiosk and buy Matt Taibbi's latest piece in Rolling Stone magazine. One of the best comprehensive profiles of Government Sachs done to date. Speaking of GS, they sure must be busy today, now that Bernanke is about to be impeached and take the fall for all their machinations.

YouTube - DEE SNIDER at PMRC (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILc5FGVJxRQ)

Theocrat
06-27-2009, 02:18 PM
Sorry, but I've been too busy trying to find a job to worry about all the political stuff happening, there's just too much for one mind to handle, can anyone explain to me in 3 sentences?


Cap and trade legislation is the government's way of decreasing emissions in the environment from industrial polluters (with the assumption that it contributes to global warming).

The cap is the limit of how much pollutants can be emitted, and the trade is when companies that need to increase their emission allowance must buy credits from those who pollute less.

The federal government sells permits to allow emissions, but permits can also be sold by owners.

RevolutionSD
06-27-2009, 02:33 PM
It means you will have an even harder time finding a job once it is in effect.

We need to kill this PoS in the Senate, and we need to make sure that any contested Congressman that voted for this PoS is out next year.

Those 8 GOP that crossed party lines to support it need to be run out of town on a rail.

How's that "voting out the bad guys" been working lately?

torchbearer
06-27-2009, 02:35 PM
Cap and trade legislation is the government's way of decreasing emissions in the environment from industrial polluters (with the assumption that it contributes to global warming).

The cap is the limit of how much pollutants can be emitted, and the trade is when companies that need to increase their emission allowance must buy credits from those who pollute less.

The federal government sells permits to allow emissions, but permits can also be sold by owners.


oh, there definitely won't be any corruption in that kind of system. /sarscasm

idirtify
06-27-2009, 03:08 PM
No. The tax increases will come in the form of higher gas and other energy bills. Everybody already hates those industries and will start screaming for congress to do something about those gouging bastards.
It was pretty slick move. Same move as the HMO act of the sevenities. The medical industries are now taking the hit for the high cost of health care so we have to pass national healthcare now!

So the people fear something about an industry and the government embellishes the fear and the people petition the government for protection and the government enacts protectionism regulations that drive up costs and the people petition the government to lower costs and the government enacts socialist policies that lower the cost but drive up taxes and while the particular danger is not substantially reduced, the overall danger of living your daily life is substantially increased.

Is that about right?