Here's a scary thought

[Freedom 4 all]

I've been thinking about it, and the United States despite the enormous stupidities like the fed and privacy/civil librties violations of which we are all aware, I still can not think of a freer country. Do you believe the US is the freest nation in the world or can you think of another one?

[pacelli]

Define in measurable & observable terms what you mean by "freer".

[sevin]

Somalia.

[Andrew-Austin]

I was talking with this lady in her fifties at work the other day, she was talking about her trip to the middle east. She was basically saying that if anyone criticizes America they should move to another country. She was saying how much the middle east sucked in comparison, and that America is the freest country in the world and that freedom isn't free (referring to the efforts of soldiers). She basically sounded like a nationalist neocon, and she had a family member who worked for the CIA.

I think some people equate a high standard of living with freedom, but pretty soon our standard of living will spiral downwards. America is becoming increasingly fascist/socialist, all I see is a higher standard of living with very little room for freedom. So if other countries just so happen to suck worse, yes it is indeed sad to say America is the freest.

[Epic]

China.

No, seriously. No income or sales tax. Of course, that one-child rule....

[Brassmouth]

China.

No, seriously. No income or sales tax. Of course, that one-child rule....

I agree. The Great Firewall is easy to remedy. The Chinese have a much greater deal of economic freedom.

It doesn't really make a difference that it's illegal to write "The Communist Party sucks" and publish it. With the MSM the way it is in the US, you cant get published saying "The Republicans and Democrats suck." There's no difference.

Read some of the first-hand stories of expats living in China. They're astounding.

I also can't help but think its statistically much easier to avoid the State in China. Here we are 1/305 million. There we are 1/1.6 billion.

[slacker921]

It's a free country if you agree with the status-quo.

[mczerone]

Somalia.

BS. Somalians are subject to overt violent threat by people calling themselves 'government', when there isn't even a popular acceptance of them as such.

Somalia = governments vying for political power by gang warfare

Somalia != libertarian, or voluntary, or free society

[Expatriate]

China.

No, seriously. No income or sales tax. Of course, that one-child rule....

Yeah, and no freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, right to bear arms, freedom of speech or freedom of religion. Of course you aren't really guaranteed those rights here anymore, but I still think we have it better than China.

Certain states in the U.S. are still the most free places in the world, IMO. Of course, they don't have everything, but I have yet to hear of a place that's better.

India and parts of the Middle East have legalized marijuana, Switzerland has (or had :mad:) legal fully-automatic firearms and a high standard of living, Amsterdam has many legal drugs and legal prostitution and parts of Africa have no effective central government, but they all have only small pieces of the puzzle. There always seems to be something that is a deal-breaker.

[Carole]

"Somalia"


^ That. :D:D Just kidding, but still an idea.

[Kludge]

BS. Somalians are subject to overt violent threat by people calling themselves 'government', when there isn't even a popular acceptance of them as such.

Somalia = governments vying for political power by gang warfare

Somalia != libertarian, or voluntary, or free society

What makes you think gangs can't exist and wage war in a free society?

[Brassmouth]

Yeah, and no freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, right to bear arms, freedom of speech or freedom of religion. Of course you aren't really guaranteed those rights here anymore, but I still think we have it better than China.

Certain states in the U.S. are still the most free places in the world, IMO. Of course, they don't have everything, but I have yet to hear of a place that's better.

India and parts of the Middle East have legalized marijuana, Switzerland has (or had :mad:) legal fully-automatic firearms and a high standard of living, Amsterdam has many legal drugs and legal prostitution and parts of Africa have no effective central government, but they all have only small pieces of the puzzle. There always seems to be something that is a deal-breaker.

Think again.

YouTube - 20090620石首一心（2）The people in Shishou are angry! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5K7U-TFDY0)

That doesn't look like a "free speech zone" to me.

[mczerone]

What makes you think gangs can't exist and wage war in a free society?

I don't think they couldn't, but I was saying that what is in Somalia isn't a free society.

However, the gang warfare and piracy in Somalia is mostly waged with the motive of claiming a monopoly of force over the people living within a geographic area, emulating the State. Further, this motive is accepted as legitimate by the people within Somalia and around the world: the common perception is "if only there were one power strong enough to consolidate the differing gangs into a government, there would be peace."

If the areas surrounding Somalia, and indeed the entirety of the Earth, weren't also run by corrupt dictatorial regimes with popular legitimacy, the 'gangs' of Somalia wouldn't be fighting over political power, but instead would be looking to better themselves and their families through production. But what great temptation the political power is, where you can just expropriate the means of your enemies and exterminate dissenters under color of law.

[Expatriate]

Think again.

That doesn't look like a "free speech zone" to me.

I'm sure if they had asked for a permit they would have been denied.

People could riot like that in the States too, probably with less of a chance of being shot, but most Americans are not angry enough yet to do so and would rather get a permit. I guess in China things are so bad that average people are willing to risk injury or death by violently rioting against the government.

It was odd that the police just ran at the end of the video though. "Missiles" were being thrown by the protesters, I wonder why they didn't just open fire like they have done on certain occasions in the past? Even American police would have put up more of a fight than that.

[heavenlyboy34]

I've been thinking about it, and the United States despite the enormous stupidities like the fed and privacy/civil librties violations of which we are all aware, I still can not think of a freer country. Do you believe the US is the freest nation in the world or can you think of another one?

Somalia is freer. ;):D

[Kraig]

I don't think they couldn't, but I was saying that what is in Somalia isn't a free society.

However, the gang warfare and piracy in Somalia is mostly waged with the motive of claiming a monopoly of force over the people living within a geographic area, emulating the State. Further, this motive is accepted as legitimate by the people within Somalia and around the world: the common perception is "if only there were one power strong enough to consolidate the differing gangs into a government, there would be peace."

If the areas surrounding Somalia, and indeed the entirety of the Earth, weren't also run by corrupt dictatorial regimes with popular legitimacy, the 'gangs' of Somalia wouldn't be fighting over political power, but instead would be looking to better themselves and their families through production. But what great temptation the political power is, where you can just expropriate the means of your enemies and exterminate dissenters under color of law.

It's not really like that, the free market runs the majority of Somalia. What is paid to the thugs and warlords is far less per person than we pay to our own government. They are freer in Somalia however you slice it.

[silverhawks]

I would go with the USA every time, for one simple reason.

Despite the realities of the present situation, from what I've seen, people here in the States want and BELIEVE IN freedom as a founding concept of the nation.

As far as I can tell, that doesn't occur ANYWHERE else in the world.

[Kraig]

I would go with the USA every time, for one simple reason.

Despite the realities of the present situation, from what I've seen, people here in the States want and BELIEVE IN freedom as a founding concept of the nation.

As far as I can tell, that doesn't occur ANYWHERE else in the world.

Really? But I've hardly mean any anarchists at all here. ;)

[pacelli]

I was talking with this lady in her fifties at work the other day, she was talking about her trip to the middle east. She was basically saying that if anyone criticizes America they should move to another country. She was saying how much the middle east sucked in comparison, and that America is the freest country in the world and that freedom isn't free (referring to the efforts of soldiers). She basically sounded like a nationalist neocon, and she had a family member who worked for the CIA.

I think some people equate a high standard of living with freedom, but pretty soon our standard of living will spiral downwards. America is becoming increasingly fascist/socialist, all I see is a higher standard of living with very little room for freedom. So if other countries just so happen to suck worse, yes it is indeed sad to say America is the freest.

The middle east is just different in comparison. Completely different cultures and set of norms, I really don't think it is fair to compare middle eastern cultures to US culture. I've been there, and enjoyed it. I didn't feel like I was persecuted or hated, but then again I actually took the time to talk to people and didn't gawk at them like they were fish in a fishbowl. The only people who go to the middle east and think it sucks is because they are expecting to go to another version of the US, or they are disappointed that people dislike being watched like fish. These people travel in body only, but their minds are still firmly rooted in the US.

[Brassmouth]

I'm sure if they had asked for a permit they would have been denied.

People could riot like that in the States too, probably with less of a chance of being shot, but most Americans are not angry enough yet to do so and would rather get a permit. I guess in China things are so bad that average people are willing to risk injury or death by violently rioting against the government.

It was odd that the police just ran at the end of the video though. "Missiles" were being thrown by the protesters, I wonder why they didn't just open fire like they have done on certain occasions in the past? Even American police would have put up more of a fight than that.

My point exactly. In a statist society like ours or China's, the State's fear of the masses in the only way freedom can thrive.

Here, cops and troops are fearless. They know they are above the "law."

Unlike here, in China the people recognize that they are oppressed. They are ruled by the Communist Party. They have no ill-conceived fantasies that they rule themselves, like Americans foolishly think.

Because of that, the Chinese people are far more willing to fight back. The seeds of freedom are blooming there.

[Expatriate]

My point exactly. In a statist society like ours or China's, the State's fear of the masses in the only way freedom can thrive.

Here, cops and troops are fearless. They know they are above the "law."

Unlike here, in China the people recognize that they are oppressed. They are ruled by the Communist Party. They have no ill-conceived fantasies that they rule themselves, like Americans foolishly think.

Because of that, the Chinese people are far more willing to fight back. The seeds of freedom are blooming there.

Good point. But say, hypothetically, the masses eventually overthrow the Chinese government. What do you think will rise from the ashes? I don't think it will be a libertarian paradise.

See this post:


I would go with the USA every time, for one simple reason.

Despite the realities of the present situation, from what I've seen, people here in the States want and BELIEVE IN freedom as a founding concept of the nation.

As far as I can tell, that doesn't occur ANYWHERE else in the world.

[Freedom 4 all]

I would go with the USA every time, for one simple reason.

Despite the realities of the present situation, from what I've seen, people here in the States want and BELIEVE IN freedom as a founding concept of the nation.

As far as I can tell, that doesn't occur ANYWHERE else in the world.

That's true for sure in Canada at least. I have actually heard people say on more than one occasion how much they like paying high income tax to support our wonderful social programs. Taxes being too low is actually a fairly common complaint I've heard. I'm sure people in America say that as well, but in Canada they aren't joking or being sarcastic:eek::eek::eek:

[Elwar]

Hong Kong? New Zealand?

[Expatriate]

That's true for sure in Canada at least. I have actually heard people say on more than one occasion how much they like paying high income tax to support our wonderful social programs. Taxes being too low is actually a fairly common complaint I've heard. I'm sure people in America say that as well, but in Canada they aren't joking or being sarcastic:eek::eek::eek:

Yeah, I can vouch for that, being in Canada right now :rolleyes:

I have hope for my town though. A lot of the opinion articles and letters to the editor in the local papers have been libertarian sounding for the last few months. The economic situation, combined with all city workers going on strike and various taxes being raised has changed more than a few of my acquaintance's political views. People that called Ron Paul a kook back in 2008 are asking if they can borrow some of his books from me now. :)

[coyote_sprit]

Hong Kong? New Zealand?

New Zealand outright bans games and movies(it's a crime to own Postal 2 there) that don't pass their rating system. No thanks....

[Freedom 4 all]

Yeah, I can vouch for that, being in Canada right now :rolleyes:

I have hope for my town though. A lot of the opinion articles and letters to the editor in the local papers have been libertarian sounding for the last few months. The economic situation, combined with all city workers going on strike and various taxes being raised has changed more than a few of my acquaintance's political views. People that called Ron Paul a kook back in 2008 are asking if they can borrow some of his books from me now. :)

Cool, whereabouts in Canada is this? I'm from the East myself but I did hear that the West (Alberta, Saskatchewan etc.) does have some elements of more liberty minded thinking.

[Expatriate]

Cool, whereabouts in Canada is this? I'm from the East myself but I did hear that the West (Alberta, Saskatchewan etc.) does have some elements of more liberty minded thinking.

Windsor, Ontario.

But still, it remains to be seen if peoples' words mean anything. Hopefully next election season there will be a better turnout in voters for the Libertarian Party or the Freedom Party. Or the major party candidates will adopt less statist positions to garner votes. My guess is that even in the best case it will take a few more election cycles before anything changes.

[Pericles]

"Somalia"


^ That. :D:D Just kidding, but still an idea.

Sure - just move there and hire your private security company and you are all set. What is stopping all of the anarchists?

[Brassmouth]

Good point. But say, hypothetically, the masses eventually overthrow the Chinese government. What do you think will rise from the ashes? I don't think it will be a libertarian paradise.

See this post:

Perhaps. I have more hope for China than any European country though.

The Chinese people like capitalism. They say they hate it. Hell, they may even think they live under socialism. Whatever word they have for it, they like it, and they remember just a few decades ago, what life was like under Mao.

Better chance for freedom there than anywhere else, I'd say, barring a revolution in the US.

[Brassmouth]

Sure - just move there and hire your private security company and you are all set. What is stopping all of the anarchists?

Probably the lack of respect for private property, and all the UN troops keeping the people there from accomplishing anything.

You're expecting a caveman to build an internal combustion engine.

You'll also have to explain the 1,000(!!) year anarchic period Ireland experienced or the 300 year period Iceland experienced, or the 50 year period colonial Pennsylvania experienced before you can use empirical evidence against us.

That is, of course, assuming you are interested in the truth, which, is obviously not the case.