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Objectivist
06-24-2009, 04:38 PM
Not sure what the thinking on this in a supposed free country but I have no problems with the wearing of the burka if the woman chooses to do so on her own. Unless of course the burka was used to hide a married child from public view, that's one of the suggestions I've heard from folks. Then the security issue at airports and such.
Any thoughts on why Sarkozy is taking this stand in a free country? Doesn't make much sense if you think about it.

Here's the link to BBC and the story.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8112821.stm

Sarkozy speaks out against burka


Mr Sarkozy was speaking at a special session of parliament in Versailles
French President Nicolas Sarkozy has spoken out strongly against the wearing of the burka by Muslim women in France.
In a major policy speech, he said the burka - a garment covering women from head to toe - reduced them to servitude and undermined their dignity.
Mr Sarkozy also gave his backing to the establishment of a parliamentary commission to look at whether to ban the wearing of burkas in public.
In 2004, France banned the Islamic headscarves in its state schools.
'Not welcome'
"We cannot accept to have in our country women who are prisoners behind netting, cut off from all social life, deprived of identity," Mr Sarkozy told a special session of parliament in Versailles.

To raise the subject like this, via a parliamentary committee, is a way of stigmatising Islam and the Muslims of France
Mohammed Moussaoui, French Council for the Muslim Religion

Sarkozy stirs debate
"That is not the idea that the French republic has of women's dignity.
"The burka is not a sign of religion, it is a sign of subservience. It will not be welcome on the territory of the French republic," the French president said.
But he stressed that France "must not fight the wrong battle", saying that "the Muslim religion must be respected as much as other religions" in the country.
A group of a cross-party lawmakers is already calling for a special inquiry into whether Muslim women who wear the burka is undermining French secularism, the BBC's Emma Jane Kirby in Paris says.
The lawmakers also want to examine whether women who wear the veil are doing so voluntarily or are being forced to cover themselves, our correspondent says.
Mr Sarkozy's speech was the first a French president has made to parliament since the 19th century - made possible by a constitutional amendment he introduced last year.
Later on Monday, Mr Sarkozy was expected to meet the Emir of Qatar, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifah al-Thani.


Find out about different styles of Muslim headscarf

In graphics
In 2004, France banned the Islamic headscarf and other conspicuous religious symbols from public schools, triggering heated debate in the country and abroad.
Members of the French government have been divided over the issue.
The immigration minister, Eric Besson, has said a full ban will only "create tensions" while the junior minister for human rights, Rama Yade, said she would accept a ban if it was aimed at protecting women forced to wear the burka.
France's official Muslim council has criticised the debate.
"To raise the subject like this, via a parliamentary committee, is a way of stigmatising Islam and the Muslims of France," said Mohammed Moussaoui, head of the French Council for the Muslim Religion.
France is home to about five million Muslims.

moostraks
06-24-2009, 05:17 PM
This is placing legal opinion on a cultural matter and in a "free" society contemptible at best. Sarkozy apparently has no idea how some women embrace the burka. It is not a symbol of inferiority to those who choose to wear them. I have read from women who do and it is closely in alignment with those some who are headcovering Christians.

Will he be happy when the government has everyone in uniform? Just how does flaunting one's sexuality promote the well being of female psyche? Maybe his time would be better spent at the Paris runways???

Liberty Star
06-24-2009, 05:18 PM
Question arises, was this Iraqi voter giving Sarkozy a freedom finger :

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/2008/08/28/iraq_vote_540.jpg



Going after Virgin Mary's dress code on same day he appointed a homosexual man as culture minister is not going to sit well with God.

Objectivist
06-24-2009, 06:09 PM
This is placing legal opinion on a cultural matter and in a "free" society contemptible at best. Sarkozy apparently has no idea how some women embrace the burka. It is not a symbol of inferiority to those who choose to wear them. I have read from women who do and it is closely in alignment with those some who are headcovering Christians.

Will he be happy when the government has everyone in uniform? Just how does flaunting one's sexuality promote the well being of female psyche? Maybe his time would be better spent at the Paris runways???

From the story I take it HE thinks that women wearing a burka are forced to do so. But is he really defending freedom by making a law to prevent it?

moostraks
06-24-2009, 06:22 PM
From the story I take it HE thinks that women wearing a burka are forced to do so. But is he really defending freedom by making a law to prevent it?

wow...way to be an informed leader! The irony wasn't lost on me either...

Carole
06-24-2009, 07:14 PM
:D

BTW,if wearing the burka is just a cultural thing I have no problem with a woman wearing it if she chooses.

However, if it is a religious practice, then I would question whether it should be allowed in schools that deny the right to other religions to have prayer in schools or to wear a cross as jewelry, etc.

Taking it one step further, one can wear a cross yet not intend it as a religious symbol just a piece of jewelry, yet still be denied the right. Same could apply to burka since it "appears" to represent religion even if it does not. Basically, I am saying this is all a waste of time and effort and invasion of individual rights.

No one should be interfering in these matters, unless someone is going way beyond the bounds of decency in their dress.

Objectivist
06-25-2009, 02:40 AM
:D

BTW,if wearing the burka is just a cultural thing I have no problem with a woman wearing it if she chooses.

However, if it is a religious practice, then I would question whether it should be allowed in schools that deny the right to other religions to have prayer in schools or to wear a cross as jewelry, etc.

Taking it one step further, one can wear a cross yet not intend it as a religious symbol just a piece of jewelry, yet still be denied the right. Same could apply to burka since it "appears" to represent religion even if it does not. Basically, I am saying this is all a waste of time and effort and invasion of individual rights.

No one should be interfering in these matters, unless someone is going way beyond the bounds of decency in their dress.

Good point, I thought about a comment I heard on a talk show last night, a woman who claimed to be a muslim(caller) stated that women wear the burka for protection, I'm guessing the fully covered version..... Protection from what or who? Seemed like an odd statement but with what I witness everyday in Islamic countries it seemed logical.

Pod
06-25-2009, 03:22 AM
Any thoughts on why Sarkozy is taking this stand in a free country? Doesn't make much sense if you think about it.

Because it is a vote winner. It will never actually get passed, but he is doing a little bit of old fashioned culture war. Measured amounts of anti-moslem chauvinism (under a PC veil of secularism or women`s rights of course) will give you a decent boost in ratings in a country with a big immigrant problem.

Objectivist
06-25-2009, 03:31 AM
Because it is a vote winner. It will never actually get passed, but he is doing a little bit of old fashioned culture war. Measured amounts of anti-moslem chauvinism (under a PC veil of secularism or women`s rights of course) will give you a decent boost in ratings in a country with a big immigrant problem.

France has an immigrant problem? Too many Germans eating their cheese?

Pod
06-25-2009, 03:34 AM
France has an immigrant problem? Too many Germans eating their cheese?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France

Objectivist
06-25-2009, 03:54 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France

Interesting information as there are some here that deny there are any problems in France or more appropriately Europe involving muslims or islam. Hmm, interesting. I didn't know that those riots a few years ago were over the accidental death of immigrant children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_situation_in_the_French_suburbs

Then I found this quote interesting as well. From WIKI Page linked above.

"In the 1990s, Islamism started to spread in the French suburbs. This phenomenon is revealed by the 1995 bombings by the Armed Islamic Group, supported by French citizens.
An editorial from the BBC reported that French society's perceptions of Islam and of immigrants have alienated many French Muslims and may have been a factor in the causes of the riots; "Islam is seen as the biggest challenge to the country's secular model in the past 100 years," and the "assertiveness of French Islam is seen as a threat not just to the values of the republic, but to its very security," due to "the worldwide rise of Islamic militancy." At the same time, the editorial questioned whether such alarm is justified, citing that France's Muslim ghettos are not hotbeds of separatism and that "the suburbs are full of people desperate to integrate into the wider society." [7] A New York Times editorial, on the other hand, noted that though many rioters and arsonists are young French Muslims, of West African or Maghreb origin, the riots have not been dominated by any sort of ideological or religious overtones. A minority of rioters are of a Christian background, second-generation Portuguese immigrants, and some are children of native French (NYT, 5 Nov). On November 7, 2005, the Union of Islamic Organisations of France issued a fatwa condemning the ongoing violence."

But islam is a peaceful religion.

Thanks for the information Pod

youngbuck
06-25-2009, 05:26 AM
Hold on, I have a problem with you referring to France as a free country. Freer than some? Yes. Too close to the USA? Yes.

Therein lies the problem.

Objectivist
06-25-2009, 05:37 AM
Hold on, I have a problem with you referring to France as a free country. Freer than some? Yes. Too close to the USA? Yes.

Therein lies the problem.

How about freer than Saudi Arabia or Iran? What do you think?

Do they wear bikinis in France?

moostraks
06-25-2009, 06:14 AM
Hold on, I have a problem with you referring to France as a free country. Freer than some? Yes. Too close to the USA? Yes.

Therein lies the problem.

Progressive might have been a better term. However, this is merely arguing over semantics.

moostraks
06-25-2009, 06:20 AM
Good point, I thought about a comment I heard on a talk show last night, a woman who claimed to be a muslim(caller) stated that women wear the burka for protection, I'm guessing the fully covered version..... Protection from what or who? Seemed like an odd statement but with what I witness everyday in Islamic countries it seemed logical.

would be difficult to say without any context to the words...could be something as simple as weather protection, could be a sinster as you could surmise...

TGGRV
06-25-2009, 06:32 AM
I get why they shouldn't be allowed to wear it in public schools. If you don't like it, go to a private school. And really, as an American you probably don't understand the problems with these people here - there are HUGE problems with Muslims in Europe. They lead in violent crime across the board(especially in sexual crimes) wherever they are and they just leech on welfare.

Islam being the religion of peace is a joke to anyone who read the Quran and Hadith. I mean, I don't have anything against individual Muslims, since this is how I judge people. If you're a good person, I treat you as such, even though I can despise your group.

So, if I want to get nude to school, I should be allowed to?

EDIT:Protection from rape. To a lot of Muslim men, if you're not covered up, you're asking to be raped. That's the defense they state in courts and their Imams were taped telling them that White Christian women who aren't covered up deserve to be raped. It's nothing new. And that report is wrong. Muslims alienated themselves by building ghettos near cities and living by Sharia, not the rule of the law.

moostraks
06-25-2009, 06:33 AM
:D

BTW,if wearing the burka is just a cultural thing I have no problem with a woman wearing it if she chooses.

However, if it is a religious practice, then I would question whether it should be allowed in schools that deny the right to other religions to have prayer in schools or to wear a cross as jewelry, etc.

Taking it one step further, one can wear a cross yet not intend it as a religious symbol just a piece of jewelry, yet still be denied the right. Same could apply to burka since it "appears" to represent religion even if it does not. Basically, I am saying this is all a waste of time and effort and invasion of individual rights.

No one should be interfering in these matters, unless someone is going way beyond the bounds of decency in their dress.

I don't quite understand how one seperates cultural from religion, or why it would be necessary and warranted. When one truly believes and has faith it becomes the culture they embrace.

Progress has degenerated into pushing secular humanism as opposed to respecting the free will of sovereign individuals. Same tyrannical dictators, same master, done now because they respect their citizens.:rolleyes:THe real threat is that those who respect their religion enough to break from the mold of conformed society answer pose a threat and will need to be broken from their allegiance in order to do the bidding of the state.(not saying this is the case for all burkha wearers but for many it is)

moostraks
06-25-2009, 06:51 AM
I get why they shouldn't be allowed to wear it in public schools. If you don't like it, go to a private school. And really, as an American you probably don't understand the problems with these people here - there are HUGE problems with Muslims in Europe. They lead in violent crime across the board(especially in sexual crimes) wherever they are and they just leech on welfare.

Islam being the religion of peace is a joke to anyone who read the Quran and Hadith. I mean, I don't have anything against individual Muslims, since this is how I judge people. If you're a good person, I treat you as such, even though I can despise your group.

So, if I want to get nude to school, I should be allowed to?

EDIT:Protection from rape. To a lot of Muslim men, if you're not covered up, you're asking to be raped. That's the defense they state in courts and their Imams were taped telling them that White Christian women who aren't covered up deserve to be raped. It's nothing new. And that report is wrong. Muslims alienated themselves by building ghettos near cities and living by Sharia, not the rule of the law.

That could be the assumption, but without any context you are merely surmissing because of your distaste which is indicated by your scathing response. I understand well and good the problems over there (to an extent) as I lived in a Turkish neighborhood in Germany and we had our fair share of problems, so I can relate. However demonizing a people or a practice is a tactic of pushing one's own agenda. More harm is done by the objectivication of women in society and yet "gentleman" Sarkozy is not going after that issue.

Circular arguing regarding the nudity issue. I am not going to bother going down that path with you.

A public school is a representative of the masters who keep it maintained. I always reccommend keeping away from state school options since they are generally cess pools pushing state indoctrination. I don't know about France but Germany has been very critical of those who oppose state schools and seek alternatives.

moostraks
06-25-2009, 07:02 AM
Just as a bit of fyi for those who might be curious. Some christian women wear a veil as well for "protection". It is believed that it gives spiritual protection to those who submit themselves to the Lord's authority. This has been misinterpreted by many in christian, muslim, and secular circles. So without knowing the guiding principle behind a person's individual choice no one should just assume.

I am always astounded at the level of animosity this brings out in people who have no problem with overt sexuality.

revolutionisnow
06-25-2009, 08:20 AM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2334/2472078371_97b4805e0c_o.jpg
How can you tolerate this oppression?

SimpleName
06-25-2009, 10:44 AM
France = Ass backwards politics. I know, i know...so does the rest of the world, but France seems to be a kingpin on the matter. They try to be politically correct and are deathly afraid of speaking out directly against anything, but now this? Restricting cultural clothing now? This is a country that can't deal with the influx of Muslims, allowing the growth of Muslim "ghettos" (or so I've read) where separate laws are being suggested from those within the ghettos. Now they want to outlaw burkas? And look at the excuse: security. Does this ever end? Lets not forget this is also a country with a national religion that the people generally don't go out of their way to practice.

As for schools, I guess I can see the point, especially if others aren't allowed prayer or religious ware. But that all comes back to the point that there shouldn't be compulsory public schooling in the first place. I swear we are the only ones paying attention, because I don't know how nobody else realizes the complete idiocy of our governments.

TGGRV
06-25-2009, 04:18 PM
That could be the assumption, but without any context you are merely surmissing because of your distaste which is indicated by your scathing response. I understand well and good the problems over there (to an extent) as I lived in a Turkish neighborhood in Germany and we had our fair share of problems, so I can relate. However demonizing a people or a practice is a tactic of pushing one's own agenda. More harm is done by the objectivication of women in society and yet "gentleman" Sarkozy is not going after that issue.

Circular arguing regarding the nudity issue. I am not going to bother going down that path with you.

A public school is a representative of the masters who keep it maintained. I always reccommend keeping away from state school options since they are generally cess pools pushing state indoctrination. I don't know about France but Germany has been very critical of those who oppose state schools and seek alternatives.
Actually, as long as the government funds those schools, they can say what they want you to do in them. Don't like it, go to a private school. This works in healthcare in the EU and since you live here, you know that.

And I don't demonize them, they demonize themselves. It's not like I lied in anything I said. If I did say something that is untruthful, call me on it. If not, don't imply I did by twisting my words.

I could argue that the objectification of women isn't as bad as being forced to wear a veil under the thread of rape or being honor killed because I got raped. And as a woman, I choose to be objectified, especially since I can pretty much ignore the people who do it. Easy. So no, objectification isn't worse.

EDIT:Since people might think I was angry when I wrote this, I wasn't. There was no dislike towards moostraks or stuff like that, it's just debate. ;p

moostraks
06-25-2009, 05:04 PM
Actually, as long as the government funds those schools, they can say what they want you to do in them. Don't like it, go to a private school. This works in healthcare in the EU and since you live here, you know that.

And I don't demonize them, they demonize themselves. It's not like I lied in anything I said. If I did say something that is untruthful, call me on it. If not, don't imply I did by twisting my words.

I could argue that the objectification of women isn't as bad as being forced to wear a veil under the thread of rape or being honor killed because I got raped. And as a woman, I choose to be objectified, especially since I can pretty much ignore the people who do it. Easy. So no, objectification isn't worse.

EDIT:Since people might think I was angry when I wrote this, I wasn't. There was no dislike towards moostraks or stuff like that, it's just debate. ;p

You are taking everything I am saying out of context so let me go step by step. I agreed that folks should stay out of state run schools. However, it is not an easy scenario for everyone. As I stated in Germany they are very harsh towards parent choice.So your flippantly making a statement such as yours to just alternative school is not always feasible. Furthermore, to force folks to use the state system and then demand they comply to secular humanist beliefs while ignoring their own religious beliefs is ludicrous but definately the path they are heading down in numerous "free" countries. This is why all schools should be private and autonomous....

I am no longer in Germany. I left quite some time ago. I merely stated I was aware of immigrant problems as they were prevalent even back when I lived there.

As for demonizing a people, I was refering to Sarkozy with his decision as to for what reasons a person chooses to wear a burkha. He is villifying the practice based upon his personal opinion. Then they talk about how progressive and open minded they are as they outlaw a practice that is of spiritual value to many women. I have spoken and read the stories of the pro-burkha women and it is not as you say a rape issue for them. It was a spiritual matter. Furthermore, I know Quakers who have chosen this particular headcovering and is gentleman Sarkozy going to allow them to wear theirs since it isn't an Islamic practice? You seem to be under the impression that all those who headcover do this based on fear and yet this is not the case, for all those who chose to embrace this practice.

Your choosing to be objectified as an adult is your business albeit it is incredibly detrimental to your pyschological well being much less the physical tolls it takes. Most women don't realize until they are older and even then must have the maturity to see the cost. Too many women think they have the power when really they are being played and will be put out to pasture when they pass their prime. Real relationships and healthy lives are not built in this manner. As for your opinion regarding choosing to be objectified, I am sure the defense of she was asking for it has been used effectively before regarding women with loose morals who were raped. So flaunting what you possess incurs its own wrath. I believe the state embraces loose morals as a way to keep the people preoccupied while they pillage.

With these types of decisions such as Sarkozy is making the state is mandating a particular lifestyle for all its women and it floors me they want to fight the battle with this issue while there is so much more detrimental in todays society. The excuse is fallacious. Is it sufficient when society chooses a dress code for its citizens?Because that is exactly what they would be doing...

Freedom 4 all
06-25-2009, 05:14 PM
Good point, I thought about a comment I heard on a talk show last night, a woman who claimed to be a muslim(caller) stated that women wear the burka for protection, I'm guessing the fully covered version..... Protection from what or who? Seemed like an odd statement but with what I witness everyday in Islamic countries it seemed logical.

It's protection from getting stoned to death by barbarian "religious" leaders if they see her without one.

Freedom 4 all
06-25-2009, 05:21 PM
I could argue that the objectification of women isn't as bad as being forced to wear a veil under the thread of rape or being honor killed because I got raped. And as a woman, I choose to be objectified, especially since I can pretty much ignore the people who do it. Easy. So no, objectification isn't worse.


Bingo. It isn't about objectification vs modesty, it's about a stone age authoritarian practice that has no place in a secular society. Also, in regard to Catholic nuns, they won't get raped or "honor murdered" if they are seen without their nun uniform so the analogy does not apply.

TGGRV
06-25-2009, 05:22 PM
You are taking everything I am saying out of context so let me go step by step. I agreed that folks should stay out of state run schools. However, it is not an easy scenario for everyone. As I stated in Germany they are very harsh towards parent choice.So your flippantly making a statement such as yours to just alternative school is not always feasible. Furthermore, to force folks to use the state system and then demand they comply to secular humanist beliefs while ignoring their own religious beliefs is ludicrous but definately the path they are heading down in numerous "free" countries. This is why all schools should be private and autonomous....

I am no longer in Germany. I left quite some time ago. I merely stated I was aware of immigrant problems as they were prevalent even back when I lived there.

As for demonizing a people, I was refering to Sarkozy with his decision as to for what reasons a person chooses to wear a burkha. He is villifying the practice based upon his personal opinion. Then they talk about how progressive and open minded they are as they outlaw a practice that is of spiritual value to many women. I have spoken and read the stories of the pro-burkha women and it is not as you say a rape issue for them. It was a spiritual matter. Furthermore, I know Quakers who have chosen this particular headcovering and is gentleman Sarkozy going to allow them to wear theirs since it isn't an Islamic practice? You seem to be under the impression that all those who headcover do this based on fear and yet this is not the case, for all those who chose to embrace this practice.

Your choosing to be objectified as an adult is your business albeit it is incredibly detrimental to your pyschological well being much less the physical tolls it takes. Most women don't realize until they are older and even then must have the maturity to see the cost. Too many women think they have the power when really they are being played and will be put out to pasture when they pass their prime. Real relationships and healthy lives are not built in this manner. As for your opinion regarding choosing to be objectified, I am sure the defense of she was asking for it has been used effectively before regarding women with loose morals who were raped. So flaunting what you possess incurs its own wrath. I believe the state embraces loose morals as a way to keep the people preoccupied while they pillage.

With these types of decisions such as Sarkozy is making the state is mandating a particular lifestyle for all its women and it floors me they want to fight the battle with this issue while there is so much more detrimental in todays society. The excuse is fallacious. Is it sufficient when society chooses a dress code for its citizens?Because that is exactly what they would be doing...
Well, as long as public schools have any dress codes, they can outlaw whatever they want, don't they? If I want to go in a bathing suit to school, it's my choice as it's her choice to wear a burka, isn't it?

And the problem is cultural and religious, not merely an immigration problem.

And again, private individuals should do whatever they want. I should be free to not receive people wearing headgear in my business though too, right? Maybe I want to sell my stuff only to whores wearing bikinis, what's the problem? See, this is the hypocrisy. Ban one, allow the other. I support Sarkozy because he is banning everything, not just one side. :P And for lots of women it is out of fear.

And I don't CHOOSE to be objectified, I choose to wear whatever I want and I ignore the people who objectify me. And I know how real relationships are because I actually have those, even though I'm not the most covered up person. And asking for it isn't a justification. It's not only offensive to her, but to all men. If I'd be a man, I'd take offense at it because the premise of that statement is that men are merely apes who climbed off the tree and can't hold their urges. This pathetic excuse is so middle ages that it's not even funny.

moostraks
06-25-2009, 06:20 PM
Well, as long as public schools have any dress codes, they can outlaw whatever they want, don't they? If I want to go in a bathing suit to school, it's my choice as it's her choice to wear a burka, isn't it?

And the problem is cultural and religious, not merely an immigration problem.

And again, private individuals should do whatever they want. I should be free to not receive people wearing headgear in my business though too, right? Maybe I want to sell my stuff only to whores wearing bikinis, what's the problem? See, this is the hypocrisy. Ban one, allow the other. I support Sarkozy because he is banning everything, not just one side. :P And for lots of women it is out of fear.

And I don't CHOOSE to be objectified, I choose to wear whatever I want and I ignore the people who objectify me. And I know how real relationships are because I actually have those, even though I'm not the most covered up person. And asking for it isn't a justification. It's not only offensive to her, but to all men. If I'd be a man, I'd take offense at it because the premise of that statement is that men are merely apes who climbed off the tree and can't hold their urges. This pathetic excuse is so middle ages that it's not even funny.

You choose to objectify yourself when you embrace a technique of flaunting your sexuality. You sound really young since this seems foreign to you. When one values themselves they see they have more to offer. Lasting relationships of true worth are rarely if ever predicated upon flaunting one's sexuality. We are clearly not speaking in the same terms.

You also have not read the entirity of what I wrote before or you would see that I agreed it was cultural and religious. Neither of which should society be mandating.

Your circuitous arguments are not worth the time, I can't even see a train of thought here to have a discussion with you. Suffice it to say society used to have a standard of acceptable attire. Nowadays tptb are fighting to lower the standard of morality in order to set people free from their prisons of suppression, when they really are just lowering the bar to keep folks preoccupied,imo.

As for the argument I put forth regarding immorality, it was to make you see it cuts both ways. Both arguments have been used effectively before. I was not making a value judgement on its correctness.

DirtMcGirt
06-25-2009, 07:31 PM
Here is the "Economist.com" take on it.


http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=13925890&source=hptextfeature

Objectivist
06-26-2009, 02:45 AM
France = Ass backwards politics. I know, i know...so does the rest of the world, but France seems to be a kingpin on the matter. They try to be politically correct and are deathly afraid of speaking out directly against anything, but now this? Restricting cultural clothing now? This is a country that can't deal with the influx of Muslims, allowing the growth of Muslim "ghettos" (or so I've read) where separate laws are being suggested from those within the ghettos. Now they want to outlaw burkas? And look at the excuse: security. Does this ever end? Lets not forget this is also a country with a national religion that the people generally don't go out of their way to practice.

As for schools, I guess I can see the point, especially if others aren't allowed prayer or religious ware. But that all comes back to the point that there shouldn't be compulsory public schooling in the first place. I swear we are the only ones paying attention, because I don't know how nobody else realizes the complete idiocy of our governments.

I know personally I wouldn't want France to become a Islamic country, I like French Bikinis too much.... see what I mean.
YouTube - Miss France 2007 Bikini (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pJ537HYxO8)