"Libertarians are Just Conservatives Who Like to Smoke Pot"

[BuddyRey]

http://www.sodahead.com/question/453903/do-you-agree-or-disagree-with-the-adage-libertarians-are-just-conservatives-who-like-to-smoke-pot/

I've heard this one from many different sources throughout my political and ideological journey, especially from progressive radio talkers like Thom Hartmann, and it just never rang true to me. In my opinion, there are massive key philosophical differences between the two. Even though mainstream conservatives typically use libertarian rhetoric and speak in terms of small government, individualism, and personal liberty, a solid majority of conservatives support collectivist concepts like pre-emptive war, extreme rendition, torture, nationalism, jingoism, anti-intellectualism, etc. Of course this is a very broad characterization and it certainly doesn't describe all conservatives. No offense intended to all of my peeps in the GOP.

Who gets to decide the frame of reference that this quote adheres to? Since I've primarily heard this from liberals, it seems almost custom tailored to alienate liberals from being friends with, learning from, and researching libertarians and their ideas. Couldn't one just as easily say that "libertarians are just liberals who like guns" or "libertarians are just liberals who don't like taxes"? After all, if liberals and libertarians agree on drug policy and civil liberties in general, and social issues consist of roughly half of the liberal platform, that means we're just as closely related to liberals as we are to conservatives.

Another fallacy in this maxim is that one necessarily has to indulge in marijuana consumption to support other people's right to do so. This is just plain wrong. One need NOT be a *libertine* to be a libertarian; in fact, the way I live my personal life is extremely conservative. I abstain from premarital sex, dress traditionally, adhere to a Christian code of ethics, etc. But I am a hardcore libertarian in that I don't support forcing others to live like me. I reject force and violence in all cases except those in which somebody's life or property is being aggressed against. In other words, the only justifiable force is retaliatory force. If other people want to have seventeen sexual partners, burn children in effigy, and take opium rectally (RIP George Carlin!), that's their business, not mine. As long as they don't try to hurt anyone else, we're cool! But I digress...

I believe that the conflation of libertarianism with conservatism (which has been aided by many mainstream conservative pundits in the media who seek to glom onto trendier terms to describe themselves) is a grievous error in categorization and an oversimplification of a complex political spectrum.

[dannno]

I agree with you, but I think that smoking herb tends to help give people a more libertarian attitude.. I mean, not when resources are being taken and we live in a completely corporatized society, a lot of cannabis users will advocate for better economic equality due to the wealth transfers that are perceived to be moving from the poor to the wealthy. I used to be a libertarian, but I was on a Nader stint from 2000-2004 cause I saw the economic inequality that stemmed from our economic system. I didn't know WHY it was happening, which is why I advocated a return transfer of wealth back to the poor. When I found out the transfer of wealth was due to the banking system and a dishonest monetary policy and the Fed, then I decided to lead the charge directly, due to the economic inefficiencies of wealth transfers back and forth.

However, I still believe that when people smoke herb they tend to have a better sense of what individualism is, and certainly it teaches people that using force is wrong, even though the whole "forced sharing" thing doesn't always click right away.

As an example, I don't think I ever met someone who smokes herb who was for the war in Iraq..

[Optatron]

libertarians are just anarchists who are too attached to their money

[dannno]

libertarians are just anarchists who are too attached to their money

No, I don't think so.

[Kotin]

libertarians are just anarchists who are too attached to their money

that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[Andrew-Austin]

Your analysis seems to be spot on to me.. One thing I have noticed is that liberals really do enjoy the use of empty rhetoric. The usage of such rhetoric appeals to them in this case, because they do not want to learn about libertarianism to begin with. They do not come to such conclusions through their own analysis, rather they look to fellow liberals to give them a reason to ignore libertarian arguments. Conservatives/Republicans have already been heavily demonized in the mind's of liberals, and justly so in some respects... The conflation of libertarians with republicans by liberals can be seen as just as the intellectually lazy group-think side of liberals rearing its head. Libertarians are against what they call progress, and that is enough reason for them to put us in the same "demonize and ignore" category as Republicans. I think the left/right paradigm is partly to blame, and if you are having a discussion with one of these liberals it might be helpful to link them to the nolan chart to give them a new perspective.

[Steeleye]

libertarians are just anarchists who are too attached to their money
http://www.rumorsdaily.com/brd/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/no-exit-libertarianism-anarchy-for-rich-people.GIF

[mediahasyou]

I don't smoke. Myth busted.

[Liberty Star]

There are many key differences; "conservatives" also don't like having racy Liberty psoters and calendars on their walls.

[Heata]

I think what separates libertarians from liberals is their understanding of economics.

Also, the smell of pot repulses me.

[dannno]

Also, the smell of pot repulses me.

Hah, well then you're smelling the wrong kind of pot ;)

I got some purple stuff that smells like grape flavored roses. You won't find a flower that smells better than some of these flowers.

You got your citruses and strawberries and punches.. then of course you got your skunks and diesels.. but honestly you were probably smelling moldy schwag.

[jkr]

love the smell and the taste.
vaporized or lit up.

[Heata]

Hah, well then you're smelling the wrong kind of pot ;)

I got some purple stuff that smells like grape flavored roses. You won't find a flower that smells better than some of these flowers.

You got your citruses and strawberries and punches.. then of course you got your skunks and diesels.. but honestly you were probably smelling moldy schwag.

nah, I've "smelled" all kinds, including award winning stuff in Amsterdam, but I just can't make myself like it. :confused: It's just overpowering. Plus, it doesn't do much for me.

To each their own.

[klamath]

I used to believe the majority of libertarians just wanted people to have the freedom to make they own moral decisions. Unfortunately now I believe the majority are pot smokers and hard drug users and get some pretty paranoid theories under the influence.

[StilesBC]

Trying to attach meaning to words like "liberal", "conservative" or even "libertarian" is a pointless exercise. We'd all be better off if we just stopped labeling ourselves and others with meaningless terms that really have no consistent definition.

It is ideas that matter. The labels typically used to represent those ideas are vapid nonsense.

[Kludge]

There are probably more (%) pot-smokers in libertarianism than other ideology collectives... Still less than half, assuming this poll is representative.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=139822

[Natalie]

I used to think I was Libertarian, until I came to RPF. There are some hardcore Libertarians on here who are borderline anarchists. I believe we should still have government, but we can drastically reduce the size of the Federal Govt. Idk, I basically just agree with RP on everything. I'm adamantly pro-life, and I think we should secure the borders, which are two issues that Libertarians can never really agree on.

[Natalie]

Also, I don't smoke pot.

[Theocrat]

I used to think I was Libertarian, until I came to RPF. There are some hardcore Libertarians on here who are borderline anarchists. I believe we should still have government, but we can drastically reduce the size of the Federal Govt. Idk, I basically just agree with RP on everything. I'm adamantly pro-life, and I think we should secure the borders, which are two issues that Libertarians can never really agree on.

You would like the Constitution Party (http://www.constitutionparty.com/party_platform.php). :)

[Natalie]

You would like the Constitution Party (http://www.constitutionparty.com/party_platform.php). :)

I voted for Chuck Baldwin ;)

[pacelli]

I'm not rich and I don't smoke pot.

[klamath]

There are probably more (%) pot-smokers in libertarianism than other ideology collectives... Still less than half, assuming this poll is representative.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=139822

That poll asked general RP supporters about MJ use not just libertarians. You would have to do a poll specifically for libertarians and drug use.
Just because you are RP supporter does not make you a libertarian. Rp got more than twice as may votes as any Libertarian candidate ever got, including himself when he ran as a libertarian. This tells me that the majority of RP's votes were not libertarian.

[CCTelander]

that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Nor does much of anything else I've read from that poster.

[Kludge]

That poll asked general RP supporters about MJ use not just libertarians. You would have to do a poll specifically for libertarians and drug use.
Just because you are RP supporter does not make you a libertarian. Rp got more than twice as may votes as any Libertarian candidate ever got, including himself when he ran as a libertarian. This tells me that the majority of RP's votes were not libertarian.

I'm not aware of any posters here who aren't libertarian or libertarian-leaning con/lib. I don't think all that many libertarians even vote regularly, hence the "Ron Paul cured my apathy" phenomenon, which might explain why the LP and CP don't often receive many votes ("not worth the gas money").

[torchbearer]

I'm not aware of any posters here who aren't libertarian or libertarian-leaning con/lib. I don't think all that many libertarians even vote regularly, hence the "Ron Paul cured my apathy" phenomenon, which might explain why the LP and CP don't often receive many votes ("not worth the gas money").

true.

[Andrew-Austin]

I used to think I was Libertarian, until I came to RPF. There are some hardcore Libertarians on here who are borderline anarchists. I believe we should still have government, but we can drastically reduce the size of the Federal Govt. Idk, I basically just agree with RP on everything. I'm adamantly pro-life, and I think we should secure the borders, which are two issues that Libertarians can never really agree on.

Some private property anarchists make the good point that we wouldn't have to worry about the rapid influx in immigration under anarcho-capitalism, because there would be no public transportation system/infrastructure to allow the free movement of immigrants in to the country to begin with. Immigrants would not be able to move to American unless they were invited, and their ability to pay for everything was proven, since there would be no government subsidized anything. As it is now politicians go out of their way to pander to the foreign immigrant vote, sometimes disregarding their long time constituents. The man who has payed his taxes and lived in America all his life, has the same amount of votes as the immigrant who just moved here via government roads and is receiving welfare.

I too have seen libertarians, ranging from the softcore to the hardcore, differ in their views on the immigration/border issue. Some softcore libertarians might feel that people have the "right to movement/travel", and some hardcore libertarians feel that so long as the government is subsidizing the movement of foreigners to American private property they should practice discretion in who is allowed to enter the country. Its not just a conservative versus libertarian, nationalist versus anti-nationalist thing.

[speciallyblend]

hey hey ,not all Libertarians smoke pot. I am offended!!! We perfer to eat it. Libertarians have brains:) eating it is 100% safe and safer then most common veggies:)

[Danke]

There are probably more (%) pot-smokers in libertarianism than other ideology collectives... Still less than half, assuming this poll is representative.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=139822

Another JoshLowry hacked poll.

[Young Paleocon]

I don't smoke pot, just drink a lot sometimes. Pretty personally conservative but borderline anarcho-capitalism, still mulling over if human nature can be compatible on a large scale with it or if statism is just a knee-jerk reaction for the majority of the ignorant masses and they don't have the intellectual capacity or philosophic curiosity/honesty to arrive at what is truly morally/economically correct. We might just need a laizzes-faire dicator to come in and impose it ;).

[BillyDkid]

I've heard this kind of horseshit all along. Libertarians believe in liberty. It's that simple. Neither the left nor the right do. Libertarians are individualists. Neither the left nor the right are. Some people simply have this mind set that anything they don't approve of should be governed or prohibited. Libertarians believe you should be able to live your life as you choose so long as you are not harming others or interfering with their right to do the same. I believe being either liberal or conservative should be personal attributes and not governing principles. I am personally very liberal in regard to most things - how others live and what choices they make - but I am conservative in my views about my own life. For some reason many people feel the need to be governed and to govern the lives of others and I have no idea where that impulse comes from. I have to believe it comes from some sort of deep seated personal insecurity. Now there are certain difficult issues that are not as cut and dried as some would like to believe. Abortion would be such and issue in my view. The left likes to argue it is only about a woman's right to control her own body. The right likes to argue that is amounts to nothing except murder no matter the circumstances. Both views make it impossible to reach any sort of acceptable common ground.

[akihabro]

I agree with you, but I think that smoking herb tends to help give people a more libertarian attitude..

Seems like any drug will do that to people who have the ability to wake up. I don't smoke weed so myth busted again.

[swed]

I smoke bud. My views are more conservative than liberal. However I don't want to be in the same category as these modern day conservatives. I have very little in common with them and mose of their rhetoric makes me want to bang my head into a wall.

[dannno]

Seems like any drug will do that to people who have the ability to wake up. I don't smoke weed so myth busted again.

Didn't say you have to smoke herb, just that it tends to help. I was fairly libertarian before, but found that smoking herb it came out a lot more, and the people I was smoking with tended to think more like individuals rather than spouting a bunch of cliche BS.

I dunno about any drug.. but drug users tend to be more open minded...... on the other hand open minded people are more inclined to try drugs. I just think that herb helps with that, and shrooms tend to help people understand their relationship with nature better, as well as what actually constitutes your surroundings. It wasn't until I was on shrooms that I realized the only reason cops have any authority is because of a stupid piece of paper in some building that has nothing to do with me. It helps you de-construct the construct, question authority, etc..

[swed]

marijuana is amazing

[torchbearer]

marijuana is amazing

If only there could be one state where you could grow and consume it without the threat of being killed or throw in a cage for doing it.

[dannno]

If only there could be one state where you could grow and consume it without the threat of being killed or throw in a cage for doing it.

Well pretty much anyone can get a recommendation in CA, but you're limited to the qty you can grow based on county. Move to Mendocino County and you can grow 99 plants.

[dannno]

Well pretty much anyone can get a recommendation in CA, but you're limited to the qty you can grow based on county. Move to Mendocino County and you can grow 99 plants.



Mendocino:

http://www.iloveinns.com/UserFiles/Image/mendocino.jpg

http://www.hottconsultants.com/photographs/mendocino.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Mendocino-650px.jpg

http://www.mendosa.com/mendocino.jpg

[torchbearer]

Well pretty much anyone can get a recommendation in CA, but you're limited to the qty you can grow based on county. Move to Mendocino County and you can grow 99 plants.

what about the federal agents?
How do you get a recommendation?
How much does it cost to purchase land in Mendocino County?
Are the plants for personal use only?
Will the sheriff protect you from federal agents?

[swed]

Wow I need to move there. Here in florida they are very strict on marijuana. Hell every time ive gotten pulled over for speeding they try and search my car.

[dannno]

what about the federal agents?

Well Obama said he'd stop prosecuting.. and they did go after one club in that first week, but apparently they were involved in illegal activity and I haven't heard of any since.




How do you get a recommendation?

Well you have to have a documented medical condition for which cannabis provides relief. Once you have that, see my explanation on what to do below.. My roommate is a cancer survivor and I have another close friend who is an AIDS patient...obviously very valid...BUT my friend up in San Francisco who got me to get my rec. about 5 years ago got hers for her "women's troubles".. now, she does actually need cannabis for her women's troubles, but they don't limit patients on an individual basis, so she goes in and buys whenever she wants.

If you have ANY sort of sleeping disorder or bad accident or depression/stress or anything that has been documented by a physician (asthma, tinnitus, literally hundreds of conditions where cannabis has been found to provide relief), then what you do is make an appointment with medicann http://www.medicannusa.com/ (they have offices all over the bay area, northern, central and southern california) and have your documentation faxed over. I just called up the doctor's office and asked them to fax my records from a specified date range over to their head office, I had to pay $20 because the records were in storage. Then you go in, pay $120 ($90 for annual renewals) meet with a real doctor, fill out paperwork about your condition and talk to the doctor, who is usually a stoner too, about how cannabis helps you through your daily activities (even if it's just a restful nights sleep the night before). Basically CA sees inability to sleep and other things as a debilitating medical condition because it hurts your ability to work and function, so the doctors are pretty open to signing you up as long as you can provide proof of your condition.

When I was younger I had problems with my Eustachian tubes in my ears. They made slits in my ear drums, used vacuums to suck out fluids, tubes in my ears, and now my ears work fine cause I grew out of it, and they may have prevented some damage from the suction that was pulling on my ear drums, but I have some tinnitus (ringing) that really bothers me, I can barely sleep or focus or concentrated..UNLESS i've smoked a little herb, in which case the tinnitus doesn't bother me a bit.. I can sleep, focus and do whatever no issue. Even before I smoked i remember being up late and night about to scream cause of the damn ringing.. but put a couple bowls in me and the volume seems to drop about 90% and it just doesn't bother me. So that is what my prescription is for..and it really is a life saver, my quality if life is dramatically improved.. but I talked to a doctor before that about getting one for asthma and that would have worked OK too, cause cannabis helps relax the bronchials and is an expectorant so it helps keeps your lungs clean.






How much does it cost to purchase land in Mendocino County?

Hmmm.. not really sure.. It's between sonoma county and humboldt county, so it's a few hours north of san francisco.

I found these lots, unfortunately I have no idea what the size of the lots are.. but at least there is a price.


http://www.homes.com/listing/87184413/3031_Black_Bart_Trail_REDWOOD_VALLEY_CA_95470


http://www.homes.com/listing/82089875/409_S_Whipple_Street_FORT_BRAGG_CA_95437







Are the plants for personal use only?

You can have co-op arrangements with other patients and dispensaries, it's legal to trade or sell with other patients or caregivers. A caregiver is someone who is signed up to legally grow or possess medicine for a patient.




Will the sheriff protect you from federal agents?

Depends on the Sheriff.. The Sheriff in Morro Bay will not (remember the Drew Carrey Medical Marijuana special?) but the Sheriff in my county DID protect our dispensaries from Federal Agents a while back.. They refused to cooperate and they eventually left.. but then later the Feds came back and kept pushing and got a bunch of them shut down by directly threatening landlords, but that was before the Obama change in policy. There's only been one raid in our county and that was after the threatening letters during the Bush era, but even they ended up opening back up a few weeks later so I think their case got dropped.

[dannno]

Wow I need to move there. Here in florida they are very strict on marijuana. Hell every time ive gotten pulled over for speeding they try and search my car.

My roommate got pulled over for speeding, the cop stuck his head in the car and sniffed and asked him if he had anything illegal.. he said he had a doctor's recommendation and the cop said, "ok, ok" stopped harassing him and didn't mention it again.

[dannno]

This was our hay-day.. back before the Feds came in threatening people. Small town, but we had over a dozen dispensaries.. far more marijuana dispensaries than starbucks. It was like heaven.


http://www.independent.com/news/2007/may/03/medical-marijuana-movement-grows-santa-barbara/

[literatim]

I used to think I was Libertarian, until I came to RPF. There are some hardcore Libertarians on here who are borderline anarchists. I believe we should still have government, but we can drastically reduce the size of the Federal Govt. Idk, I basically just agree with RP on everything. I'm adamantly pro-life, and I think we should secure the borders, which are two issues that Libertarians can never really agree on.


Also, I don't smoke pot.


I am exactly the same. I simply refuse to call myself a libertarian. Constitutionalist is a much better description or anti-federalist.

[Kludge]

I am exactly the same. I simply refuse to call myself a libertarian. Constitutionalist is a much better description or anti-federalist.

An anti-federalist Constitutionalist? lol

[dr. hfn]

I think libertarianism could unite our country. I think it could be the Great Compromise. It's half liberal and half conservative sort of.

[james1906]

"Libertarians are just Conservatives who think you have a right to smoke pot" is more appropriate.

Why does nobody try to make the argument that "Libertarians are just Conservatives who like gay sex?"

[Scofield]

My roommate got pulled over for speeding, the cop stuck his head in the car and sniffed and asked him if he had anything illegal.. he said he had a doctor's recommendation and the cop said, "ok, ok" stopped harassing him and didn't mention it again.

This reminds me of a time me and my friend got pulled over.

We were pulled over because his tail-light was out, and when the cop came to the door, he asked if we had anything illegal in the car. My friend flexed his right bicep, pointed to it, and said "you mean, other than these guns?" with a big smile on his face. The cop nearly burst out laughing and just told us that we had our tail-light out and to get it fixed ASAP. One of the funniest experiences I've had with law enforcement, something I won't soon forget.

I still crack a smile whenever I think of that actually. What a great line to use at that time.

[nayjevin]

Trying to attach meaning to words like "liberal", "conservative" or even "libertarian" is a pointless exercise. We'd all be better off if we just stopped labeling ourselves and others with meaningless terms that really have no consistent definition.

It is ideas that matter. The labels typically used to represent those ideas are vapid nonsense.

+1


There are probably more (%) pot-smokers in libertarianism than other ideology collectives... Still less than half, assuming this poll is representative.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=139822

But by no means a defining characteristic. Smokers are likely to find Libertarianism through booths at Schwagfests and NORML. Also, LP is one of the few havens for political action for those who want to defend the individual's right to smoke.


This reminds me of a time me and my friend got pulled over.

We were pulled over because his tail-light was out, and when the cop came to the door, he asked if we had anything illegal in the car. My friend flexed his right bicep, pointed to it, and said "you mean, other than these guns?" with a big smile on his face. The cop nearly burst out laughing and just told us that we had our tail-light out and to get it fixed ASAP. One of the funniest experiences I've had with law enforcement, something I won't soon forget.

I still crack a smile whenever I think of that actually. What a great line to use at that time.

epic.