Ron Paul's low polling evidence that a constitutional republic can't be maintained?

[rodent]

..

[ctb619]

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816

[noxagol]

The product of the government indoctrination centers.

[Lord Xar]

yup.... and with the co-mingling of education curriculums now going on our kids will KNOW LESS of America... This is one of the reasons Bush wants Amnesty.. because those 20+million illegals have NO TRUE LOVE for america. We are seen as a money syphon. They don't know about the history.. so, you couple that with our own kids that have no clue.... man o' man, you have a society that knows nothing but what the government tells them. A population of uninformed will more than welcome fascism or socialism...

that is my take, at least.

[Hamburglar]

Most people are stupid. But most people don't vote in the primaries. All we need is a committed minority.

[walt]

can we engage teachers on this?

[inibo]

can we engage teachers on this?

I guess it would depend on how they answer these questions:

It would be wonderful to see the U.S. Constitution taught in the public schools. I will believe such a course of education is underway when someone can show me a list of study questions being presented to today’s students, including:

* Article I Section 8 grants to Congress alone the power “to declare war.” Did President Bush seek and declare a congressional “Declaration of War” against Iraq? If not, did he violate the Constitution when he sent troops to attack that nation?
* Article I Section 8 says the Congress can exercise “exclusive Legislation in all cases” over the District of Columbia, and may “exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be …” May it exercise such exclusive authority over Yucca Mountain – building a nuclear waste dump there without state permission, for example – even though it can show no bill of sale, nor written consent of the Nevada Legislature to allow it to purchase that land? Where in the Constitution does that authority arise?
* Article I Section 10 says “No state shall … make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts.” What was the founders’ experience with fiat paper currency that led to the insertion of that clause? Does the widespread acceptance of “federal reserve notes,” not convertible into gold and silver, violate this provision? Why or why not?
* The Second Amendment says the right of the people to keep and bear arms “shall not be infringed.” Do background checks, waiting periods, $200 taxes, and requirements that a machine-gun purchase be approved by your local chief of police constitute “infringements” of these rights? Where in the Constitution are such restrictions authorized?
* The Fourth Amendment says a house cannot be searched without a warrant “particularly describing … the person or things to be seized.” Yet police routinely seize firearms found during searches, even when no firearms are specifically listed on the search warrant. Is this constitutional? Can the courts waive such restrictions without going through the amendment process stipulated in Article V?
* A constitutional amendment (the 18th, since repealed) was required to outlaw alcohol nationwide. When was the constitutional amendment ratified which authorizes the similar outlawing of marijuana, cocaine, and opium? What is its number?
* The 13th amendment says “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” Are compulsory schooling or military conscription consistent with this provision?


http://www.lewrockwell.com/suprynowicz/suprynowicz47.html

[bygone]

http://photo.net/photo/pcd1359/free-speech-area-27.4.jpg

[hard@work]

The battle is over the minds of men. We began the fight in 1776. No one ever said it would be easy or that it was over. You are going to die someday. What will you have achieved for your fellow man by this time?

Devil's advocate or not, it is irrelevant to ponder anything less than the full liberation of the human spirit.

[Syren123]

yup.... and with the co-mingling of education curriculums now going on our kids will KNOW LESS of America... This is one of the reasons Bush wants Amnesty.. because those 20+million illegals have NO TRUE LOVE for america. We are seen as a money syphon. They don't know about the history.. so, you couple that with our own kids that have no clue.... man o' man, you have a society that knows nothing but what the government tells them. A population of uninformed will more than welcome fascism or socialism...

that is my take, at least.

And your take is correct. Living in Los Angeles, you see first hand the effect of unrestricted immigration of people with NO STAKE and NO INTEREST in your country, your culture, or anything other than what's in it for them. That mental midget journalist Ruben Navarette sums it up like this: people don't come to the US for a new identity. They come here for the economic opportunity.

Oh that's just great. And we wonder why nobody knows squat about US history or government or our tradition of self-sufficiency and WHY our country was better than every other one on the planet...

It's part of the plan of global integration. There's no other logical explanation.

[Syren123]

can we engage teachers on this?

Uh...maybe. Most teachers are products of the lefty liberal colleges they attended (which is all of them) and the whole socialist leaning culture than permeates the education profession. Believe me, most of them are bleeding heart socialists. Every once in a while you run across one or two that are clear thinkers, but they are a minority and they are frowned upon (usually) by the administration.

But...I have hope that like minded educators (like me) can create an alternative to the marxist curriculum taught in schools through charter schools or reworked curriculum made available through private companies.

[jmunjr]

Economics: People do not understand how the free market works. They really believe when the government creates a program, it's "free" because the costs aren't up front. They think other "greedy" people who deserve to be ripped off are the ones who will be forced to pay. They think this is okay, but don't realize that the people who pay are them.

I disagree a bit, the people who pay the MOST are the wealthy.

[Syren123]

I disagree a bit, the people who pay the MOST are the wealthy.

Taxes, yes but as far as inflation, it is definitely the poor and the middle class who are affected the most by the erosion of the dollar's buying power as they have fewer overall dollars.

[max]

i have always believed that the Founding Fathers made a major screw-up when they turned over their masterpiece to the sheeple. It's not the idea of the constitutional republic that was bad...but the act of encharging its safe keeping to the people was doomed at the start.

In hindsight, Washington should have been named King, and the other founders should have set themselves up as a council of learned elders who would pick their own like minded successors as well as the new king. The duty of the elders would be to make sure the republic was preserved.

this is what plato envisioned. As paradoxical as it may sound, liberty can only be maintained by the strong hand of benevolent and wise rulers. The surest route to destroying liberty is to turn its safekeeping over to the soccer moms and nascar fans.

[bygone]

http://www.knitemare.org/cats/pc.jpg

[stevedasbach]

The American Revolution was won by a dedicated minority.

[MGreen]

If they can't find the US on a map, I can't imagine how they'd find their nearest polling place.

[micahnelson]

If they can't find the US on a map, I can't imagine how they'd find their nearest polling place.

Dems and Repubs bus them there...

[Paulitician]

Ron Paul's low polling is evidence that he's simply unknown and not mainstream enough for the general public.

[Brian4Liberty]

I disagree a bit, the people who pay the MOST are the wealthy.

Most? As a percentage? Or in total dollars? Who do you think of as wealthy? The middle-class? The top 50%? The top 2%?

Who makes the best use of loopholes and tax-evading techniques? How about the under-ground economy of people who don't report income?

Q-Who pays the most in taxes?
A-The honest people.

Income taxes are not "fair", and never will be. The Oligarchy influences tax-code to create and maintain loopholes just for them. You will never stop them from doing that. The underground economy will always exist. Thus, it will never be fair to the "honest" taxpayer.

Abolish income tax. Abolish the IRS...

[bygone]

http://www.forumspile.com/LOL-Bee.jpg

[lucius]

Solon from 2600 years ago:

“Only enlightened humans can sustain enlightened leadership. In a democracy, the very survival of the state depends upon the intelligent cooperation of its people. They must live according to all aspects of the statutes which they have framed; no one is above the law. The ideal state, laws are few and simple, derived from certainties. In the corrupt state, laws are many and confused, because they have been derived from uncertainties. These corrupt laws are like the web of a spider which catches small insects but permits the stronger creatures to break through and escape.”

When I look at my fellow American, I usually think we are doomed as a culture. There is tremendous hope & strength on this forum. Dr. Paul gave us the answer: we must educate our fellow American.

[Shatterhand]

This is the time for education of the self. Discovering Dr. Paul has helped in my education. Only a few on this forum can claim that they learned nothing new from Dr. Paul. It's time to delve into history, economics, science . . .

Everyone needs to become a true revolutionary, i.e. a master of Paul's ideas. How else can the message be spread to others even less informed than ourselves?

[dircha]

Can we really push RP without coming up with some dumbed down tag-lines that maybe rhyme or can be chanted? Perhaps Ron Paul has to be dumbed down to the point where his face is on concert t-shirts and popularized like Che Guevara or Malcolm X. I'm being serious.

You can't sell RP without people being educated or emotionally-favorable to him in some way.

The goal is not to sell your audience on every issue in Ron Paul's platform. The goal is to bring them to believe that Ron Paul will move us in the right direction on the issues that are most important to them.

Do not get mired in the details of debating individual issues or defending Ron Paul's policies. When you are defending you are losing. Never defend. Never accuse. Always be on the offensive. Always be positive. If someone tries to pull you down in the mire, verbally, figuratively, just keep on walking (talking).

The goal is not to defend Ron Paul. The goal is not to argue with them. The goal is not to debate them. Factual debate does not win arguments; this isn't high school debate club.

First, use your personal knowledge of your audience, demographic assumptions, and common sense to identify the issues that most matter to them and of which they are most likely to agree with Ron Paul's positions. And take note of any "misconceptions" you believe they may have.

Second, frame the issues for them using personal anecdotes and situations they can relate to. Do not tell the what the problem is, never tell them that they are wrong, and never tell them that you are correcting their misconceptions. Instead, let them see what the problem is by expressing tangential personal opinions with which they are likely to agree, and asking non-aggressive, non-personal rhetorical questions in an affable and genuine way.

Third, present a narrative on these issues as you have framed them about who Ron Paul is, about what others believe about him, about what he believes and what he thinks we should do, and about where we will be 4 years from now. Never tell them what to believe. Instead, show them what they can believe, having narrowed, framed, and presented the issues and the candidate giving your audience every possible opportunity to assent to the narrative you are presenting.

People do not want to be told what to believe, and do not want to be told they are wrong. They want to be shown what they can believe, and they want to feel good about believing it.

Never defend. Never accuse. Never "debate". Always be on the offense. Always be positive.

[bygone]

Well said, dircha. That's the one size fits most answer.

[derdy]

Don't flame me on this one, but let's play devil's advocate for a moment.

I try to convince people every day about Ron Paul, but I find that the reason I can't connect with them is because they lack knowledge in a few core areas:

- History
- Geography
- Economics
- Math

History: They (my target audience) don't understand the full actions of our CIA in other countries in the past. They don't know how Iran was created, and many just quote lines about how they hate Israel and how the president denies the holocaust. They seem to think this sort of hate is created in a vacuum. They don't even know what forces led to the creation of the US.

Geography: 20% of Americans can't find the US on a world map, yet several of those people have an opinion on whether we should be bombing other countries. They base their entire opinion off of what is emotionally appealing to them that comes from the mainstream media. It's no surprise that the content in the news is delivered at roughly a 4th or 5th grade level on CNN or FOX News

Economics: People do not understand how the free market works. They really believe when the government creates a program, it's "free" because the costs aren't up front. They think other "greedy" people who deserve to be ripped off are the ones who will be forced to pay. They think this is okay, but don't realize that the people who pay are them.

Math: They don't understand that all of the objectives and policing of the world costs money. If the cause is noble, they believe the money will just appear and that we should do it. They have no concrete representation of finance in their minds.

Now, given the above -- I can't sell people on Ron Paul's positions within 5-10 minutes because they have to have some pre-equisite knowledge to see why there is so much sense in Ron Paul.

At the same time, this begs the question: Can a place like the US ever maintain adherence to the constitution if the voting masses simply lack the education to understand its logic? My experience so far: it is much easier to convert college graduates to Ron Paul's position than it is people who never went to college. The further down the education spectrum I go, the more difficult it is to shake people off of what the MSM told them.

Can we really push RP without coming up with some dumbed down tag-lines that maybe rhyme or can be chanted? Perhaps Ron Paul has to be dumbed down to the point where his face is on concert t-shirts and popularized like Che Guevara or Malcolm X. I'm being serious.

You can't sell RP without people being educated or emotionally-favorable to him in some way.

I know what you're saying and I experienced that first-hand at an event some local Ron Paul supporters and I attended for seven hours. I ended up talking to some people for 15-30 minutes explaining a lot about the history of Iran, ecnomic policies, our debt, our money, the Constitution, but it was well worth it. If you people are willing to talk and listen you can convert them easily. I got a 55-year old Democrat sold on Ron, took me 30 minutes but when I first started talking to him he was saying how we needed to go to war with Iran and he wasn't aware of our national debt, the weakining dollar or anything. It's great to be able to inform and educate the citizenry; makes you feel good to know you're doing something good for your country. :D

So, if they are uneducated, educate them and convert them! Most all people I've encountered are thankful for the information you provide them that is not being talked about in mainstream outlets.

[Thurston Howell III]

Don't put so much pressure on yourself. Put all the pressure on the Message. That's where the magic is. That's what Dr Paul does. Just keep putting out the message. It's like throwing mud at a wall. Not all of it sticks, but eventually the wall is covered.

[BillyDkid]

i have always believed that the Founding Fathers made a major screw-up when they turned over their masterpiece to the sheeple. It's not the idea of the constitutional republic that was bad...but the act of encharging its safe keeping to the people was doomed at the start.

In hindsight, Washington should have been named King, and the other founders should have set themselves up as a council of learned elders who would pick their own like minded successors as well as the new king. The duty of the elders would be to make sure the republic was preserved.

this is what plato envisioned. As paradoxical as it may sound, liberty can only be maintained by the strong hand of benevolent and wise rulers. The surest route to destroying liberty is to turn its safekeeping over to the soccer moms and nascar fans.

I'm not sure I can agree with that completely. The flaw with the Constitution was that no real mechanism was put in place to enforce it. Any breach of it should be considered a criminal act just like robbery or murder and the response of our representatives should be automatic and without equivocation. I'm not sure I would be holding my breath waiting for a wise and benevolent ruler and certainly it would be absurd to expect to get a succession of them.

[bygone]

http://www.orlyowl.com/upload/files/wtf-owls.jpg

[LibertyEagle]

Not that many people go to the effort to vote in the primaries. IF we would all get VERY active in going after college students, we actually could pull this off. The question is whether we will do it.

[johnscr]

Most? As a percentage? Or in total dollars? Who do you think of as wealthy? The middle-class? The top 50%? The top 2%?

Who makes the best use of loopholes and tax-evading techniques? How about the under-ground economy of people who don't report income?

Q-Who pays the most in taxes?
A-The honest people.

Income taxes are not "fair", and never will be. The Oligarchy influences tax-code to create and maintain loopholes just for them. You will never stop them from doing that. The underground economy will always exist. Thus, it will never be fair to the "honest" taxpayer.

Abolish income tax. Abolish the IRS...

Total dollars, total percentage - name it:

* The Top 1% of taxpayers pay 29% of all taxes.
* The Top 5% of taxpayers pay 50% of all taxes.

http://www.sugisorensen.com/taxes/index.html

[Syren123]

I love this thread.

[bygone]

http://personales.ya.com/casitasoler/james/diggimages/eatedcookie.jpg

[Syren123]

Abolishing the IRS actually would not benefit me financially; that doesn't mean it isn't worth the cost.

Maybe it wouldn't benefit you in a tax sense...and I don't want to know any more...but it would be in conjuction with abolishing the Fed and going to a more stable monetary system which would most definitely benefit you.

[bygone]

http://hometown.aol.com/lifeofbrian35/images/SuckAtInternet.jpg

[noxagol]

Which is worth the cost. Believe it or not for some people a tax return actually returns more money than they paid into it. And yes, even including other taxes (all witholding).

How the hell does it pay out more than was paid in?

[wgadget]

Don't flame me on this one, but let's play devil's advocate for a moment.

I try to convince people every day about Ron Paul, but I find that the reason I can't connect with them is because they lack knowledge in a few core areas:

- History
- Geography
- Economics
- Math

History: They (my target audience) don't understand the full actions of our CIA in other countries in the past. They don't know how Iran was created, and many just quote lines about how they hate Israel and how the president denies the holocaust. They seem to think this sort of hate is created in a vacuum. They don't even know what forces led to the creation of the US.

Geography: 20% of Americans can't find the US on a world map, yet several of those people have an opinion on whether we should be bombing other countries. They base their entire opinion off of what is emotionally appealing to them that comes from the mainstream media. It's no surprise that the content in the news is delivered at roughly a 4th or 5th grade level on CNN or FOX News

Economics: People do not understand how the free market works. They really believe when the government creates a program, it's "free" because the costs aren't up front. They think other "greedy" people who deserve to be ripped off are the ones who will be forced to pay. They think this is okay, but don't realize that the people who pay are them.

Math: They don't understand that all of the objectives and policing of the world costs money. If the cause is noble, they believe the money will just appear and that we should do it. They have no concrete representation of finance in their minds.

Now, given the above -- I can't sell people on Ron Paul's positions within 5-10 minutes because they have to have some pre-equisite knowledge to see why there is so much sense in Ron Paul.

At the same time, this begs the question: Can a place like the US ever maintain adherence to the constitution if the voting masses simply lack the education to understand its logic? My experience so far: it is much easier to convert college graduates to Ron Paul's position than it is people who never went to college. The further down the education spectrum I go, the more difficult it is to shake people off of what the MSM told them.

Can we really push RP without coming up with some dumbed down tag-lines that maybe rhyme or can be chanted? Perhaps Ron Paul has to be dumbed down to the point where his face is on concert t-shirts and popularized like Che Guevara or Malcolm X. I'm being serious.

You can't sell RP without people being educated or emotionally-favorable to him in some way.


Okay, so some people have poor educations...But in Ron Paul we have the BEST TEACHER around, and who do you know that wants to be considered DUMB?? I mean, do you know anyone who is proud of their ignorance? Ron Paul can play on the human craving for wanting to be in the know, and he can do it in his superbly gracious style like no one else.

Viva la Ron!

[SeanEdwards]

i have always believed that the Founding Fathers made a major screw-up when they turned over their masterpiece to the sheeple. It's not the idea of the constitutional republic that was bad...but the act of encharging its safe keeping to the people was doomed at the start.

In hindsight, Washington should have been named King, and the other founders should have set themselves up as a council of learned elders who would pick their own like minded successors as well as the new king. The duty of the elders would be to make sure the republic was preserved.

this is what plato envisioned. As paradoxical as it may sound, liberty can only be maintained by the strong hand of benevolent and wise rulers. The surest route to destroying liberty is to turn its safekeeping over to the soccer moms and nascar fans.

I'm totally not surprised that you would hold this opinion.

[fj45lvr]

i have always believed that the Founding Fathers made a major screw-up when they turned over their masterpiece to the sheeple. It's not the idea of the constitutional republic that was bad...but the act of encharging its safe keeping to the people was doomed at the start.
.

Whoaaa!!!

Let's not forget that someone since the founders decided to let the vote fall outside of male land owners....

I am positive that we'd see a much different Congress if this were still true today!!!

[michaelwise]

I disagree a bit, the people who pay the MOST are the wealthy.The wealthy own 80% of everything, therefore they should be paying 80% of everything.

[MsDoodahs]

Most people are stupid. But most people don't vote in the primaries. All we need is a committed minority.

I've heard this before and believe it is true:

If voting worked, it would be illegal.

[michaelwise]

Don't flame me on this one, but let's play devil's advocate for a moment.

I try to convince people every day about Ron Paul, but I find that the reason I can't connect with them is because they lack knowledge in a few core areas:

- History
- Geography
- Economics
- Math

History: They (my target audience) don't understand the full actions of our CIA in other countries in the past. They don't know how Iran was created, and many just quote lines about how they hate Israel and how the president denies the holocaust. They seem to think this sort of hate is created in a vacuum. They don't even know what forces led to the creation of the US. On the margin, young college voters will put us over the top

Geography: 20% of Americans can't find the US on a world map, yet several of those people have an opinion on whether we should be bombing other countries. They base their entire opinion off of what is emotionally appealing to them that comes from the mainstream media. It's no surprise that the content in the news is delivered at roughly a 4th or 5th grade level on CNN or FOX News

Economics: People do not understand how the free market works. They really believe when the government creates a program, it's "free" because the costs aren't up front. They think other "greedy" people who deserve to be ripped off are the ones who will be forced to pay. They think this is okay, but don't realize that the people who pay are them.

Math: They don't understand that all of the objectives and policing of the world costs money. If the cause is noble, they believe the money will just appear and that we should do it. They have no concrete representation of finance in their minds.

Now, given the above -- I can't sell people on Ron Paul's positions within 5-10 minutes because they have to have some pre-equisite knowledge to see why there is so much sense in Ron Paul.

At the same time, this begs the question: Can a place like the US ever maintain adherence to the constitution if the voting masses simply lack the education to understand its logic? My experience so far: it is much easier to convert college graduates to Ron Paul's position than it is people who never went to college. The further down the education spectrum I go, the more difficult it is to shake people off of what the MSM told them.

Can we really push RP without coming up with some dumbed down tag-lines that maybe rhyme or can be chanted? Perhaps Ron Paul has to be dumbed down to the point where his face is on concert t-shirts and popularized like Che Guevara or Malcolm X. I'm being serious.

You can't sell RP without people being educated or emotionally-favorable to him in some way.On the margin, young college voters will put us over the top.

[rodent]

..

[Alabama Supporter]

Ron Paul is going to have to appeal to the masses in some way. Sooner or later he is going to really need to define his platform on a few issues. Right now he is all over the map, and I don't think it registers with the average joe.

[lucius]

...If voting worked, it would be illegal.

Well put!

[wgadget]

Alabama supporter, methinks you support Romney.

[Brian4Liberty]

Total dollars, total percentage - name it:

* The Top 1% of taxpayers pay 29% of all taxes.
* The Top 5% of taxpayers pay 50% of all taxes.

http://www.sugisorensen.com/taxes/index.html

Well, that's the percentage...

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

Most tax evasion schemes depend on money not being counted as "income". Thus statistics based on "official income" are not accurate.

Once again, the people at the top can complain, and the people at the bottom can complain, but it's usually the honest people in the middle who really get screwed...

It will never be fair, so abolish the income tax!

[max]

I'm totally not surprised that you would hold this opinion.

The proof is in the pudding. Just look at what our government has become.

[Alabama Supporter]

Alabama supporter, methinks you support Romney.

Nope. The OP is absolutely correct. Do you realize that recent polls show 40% of the public thinks Saddam had to do with 9/11

I am not as optimistic that the sheeple will just "get it"

[bygone]

http://hometown.aol.com/lifeofbrian35/images/SuckAtInternet.jpg

[jmunjr]

The wealthy own 80% of everything, therefore they should be paying 80% of everything.

That sounds very socialist ... It would sound better (though still not entirely reasonable) to have written "they should account for 80% of the SPENDING"...

With few exceptions, I don't think people should be forced to pay for other people's stuff..