Best way to protect people that depend on disability?

[ClayTrainor]

Alright, i'm talking to someone who is claiming to be heavily dependant on the disability system. I already told explained the following to him



Do i support helping people with disabilities? Yes. Do i support helping sick children? yes, & i donate a large chunk of my salary to Sick Children

I am for all of these nice things that you advocate but the only thing is, i do not want to use the gun of the government to achieve them

If by disability you mean, do i support using Govt Force to steal money from people in order to support people with disabilities, than no i dont


And he responded with



Ok so your saying my sister who is mildly retarded from being a blue baby. Which is 4 defects of the heart which deprived her brain of oxygen should die?

It is impossible for her to work and she is no child.

She can't drive nor can she do any other complex task.

Considering my mother died after she was 18 and I haven't seen my father since I was born. Not to mention I was to young to help her.

She would be dead if it wasn't for disability.

So basically you would want people to die?


I'm just looking for some input on how to respond to this :cool:

I know a lot of people abuse the disability system, as i've witnessed it myself in Canada but, I'm not sure how to approach the above scenario, as he's gone ahead and made it personal.

[ClayTrainor]

bump

[Lafayette]

Its like the good doctor always says.

We dont want to put anyone out on the street, but we cant keep spending until we are bankrupt, then everyone is out on the street.


Cut over seas spending, kill the income tax, pay off the debt, slowly ween them off the gubment cheese and transition over to charities, churches and local communities.

[heavenlyboy34]

deregulate business and eliminate all the taxes businesses have to pay so businesses can hire/accommodate disabled folks! :)

[LibertyEagle]

Eventually, this type of thing has to be left up to charity.

[Bman]

Besides the fact that the person is giving you a straw man argument, I have a friend who was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer (He just went through chemo hopfully it goes into remission). One of things that was done was an organized party at a local firehall to raise money to help with the costs. Plus you'd be surprised how many places(small business's) offer donations for events such as this. It's much better to be part of a community than it is to steal from people. That's what the otherside doesn't want to admit. They don't want to believe there's enough good in the world to make it work. They are so fearful of the world burning and falling apart that they lie to themselves daily not realizing that the way of life they support is more likly to end in a bang than any idea that promotes self-responsibility. I don't know of a kind way to tell someone to stop being lazy, whether it be physical or mental, but that's what needs to happen for this person.

Here's my thought as best as I can say it.

If you want to figure out how to do something, figure out how to do it without stealing. Then you've truly figured it out. Until that time your are fooling yourself and wasting my money.

[VIDEODROME]

Well maybe he has a point. I mean being honest here in the real world a person like his sister could fall through the cracks and be neglected without some kind of support system or safety net.

You also have a point that you don't want to be taxed unfairly. I mean it can be a burden for the national government to just add the burden of these costs to everyone especially if it adds taxes to the lower class.

So I'd look for some kind of middle ground here. In the U.S. lots of things are funded on the local level like Police and Emergency services and I like it better that way. So my first suggestion is have any disability program run by the state or province for easier transparency and accountability.

I would also consider how it is paid for. An alternative would be to have fund raising drives. Television stations could run Public Service Announcements asking for help. There could be annual fund raising events like concerts or sports events. Hopefully if enough comes in you can avoid the taxes all together.

I'd see that as government operating with a guiding hand instead of a fist.

[muzzled dogg]

a well regulated militia

[ClayTrainor]

Lot's of good perspectives in here so far, thanks :)

[kathy88]

I have a brother-in-law who hurt his back, and at this point I'm not even sure how. He's been riding the SSI train for years. They are always complaining about not having enough money. I don't see them often, but when I do I always throw out there to his wife, why don't you work? And get the song and dance about how even a minimum wage job will affect his benefits and government medicaid or whatever pays his outrageous bills for surgeries, electric wheelchair, and the pain medication he's addicted to. (She is also fat and lazy). They also have a son with CP, who receives disability also. He's about 20? I've known my husband for 7 years, and it's been like this since I met them. A younger daughter has severe ADHD and they've been trying to get her benefits as well. Although my husband will speak to them occasionally, it's been over a year since I have. I get too pissed. They are teaching their kids to sponge off the government.

[Epic]

just say that private sources can handle it, especially in a good economy which would result if government size were to be reduced (non-essentials such as military and departments first, then entitlements later)

[Sean]

Look at it the other way also. Should someone be forced into servitude because someone has a mildly retarded sister? In the past the way these things were handled were through the family. Does this person have aunts, uncles, grandparents,cousins etc? That is your first line of defense. Second would be charity orphanages and such. People like the guy with the sister are always making arguments that people would die. Ask that now that he is grown up does he take care of his sister and removed her from government aid? Or did he put his sister in a home for others to take care of.

[TGGRV]

Charities, family... I mean, no offense, my family is poor and yet we manage to help eachother to get surgeries if we need them. By the way, this would help people care more about family life too. ;p

[paulitics]

I don't see nothing wrong with a little safety net. Some people are blind, have cancer, and do not have the capacity to work a 40 hour job like those who are blessed with good health. How are they going to make enough money to live, if they can barely get out of bed and do menial tasks? A charity can be selective, and not everyone will get help, or have family to help them out. So yes, I can see how those on disablity would persih without some support.

I'm not talking about the federal government, but it should be left to the states to decide the type of disability program. I think part time disability with assistance in training, so that the disabled can make the transition is very pragmatic.

Disability benefits is not a huge drain on the economy, and can help some people get back on their feet instead of dyine or getting worse. Many people only use disability for a couple of years, and then go back to work full time.

[jkr]

how long would you like her to live that way? because eventually it is probable see will die.

[noxagol]

The problem with a government safety net is that I am forced to take care of someone else, thus MY life is made worse against my will because someone else happens to get a raw deal in life. How is this fair to me?

Disability was not started to help the disabled. It was started to buy their votes, keep their votes, and turn them into government slaves.

[A. Havnes]

Interesting thread. If something tragic happened and I was turned into a disabled person, I wonder what my life would be like? Let's say I wind up as a blind and complete quadriplegic. Major car crash, both eyes fall out, and my neck breaks, damaging my spinal cord. Would charities take care of me? Would the states? My family sure as heck can't do it.

Stuff like this takes some deeper thought.

[Steeleye]

It's called Soylent Green.

[TGGRV]

Interesting thread. If something tragic happened and I was turned into a disabled person, I wonder what my life would be like? Let's say I wind up as a blind and complete quadriplegic. Major car crash, both eyes fall out, and my neck breaks, damaging my spinal cord. Would charities take care of me? Would the states? My family sure as heck can't do it.

Stuff like this takes some deeper thought.

I hope I'd die in that situation. lol

[LibForestPaul]

He is responding emotionally to logical reasoning. Most likely, he does not, as you believe, people would voluntarily donate money to help the elderly, the sickly, and the challenged.

You reply should go as follows:

Do you believe in helping people?

Do you believe most people help others in need?

If you yourself were very wealthy, would you help the disabled?

Does the government give all the money it steals from people to the disabled?

What percentage does it cost to administer this program?

How many bureaucrats are profiting from you sisters disability?

Would should be better served by a different program? If she is not being served well by the government, who competes with the government?

You must guide him to the answers...

[LibForestPaul]

I have a brother-in-law who hurt his back, and at this point I'm not even sure how. He's been riding the SSI train for years. They are always complaining about not having enough money. I don't see them often, but when I do I always throw out there to his wife, why don't you work? And get the song and dance about how even a minimum wage job will affect his benefits and government medicaid or whatever pays his outrageous bills for surgeries, electric wheelchair, and the pain medication he's addicted to. (She is also fat and lazy). They also have a son with CP, who receives disability also. He's about 20? I've known my husband for 7 years, and it's been like this since I met them. A younger daughter has severe ADHD and they've been trying to get her benefits as well. Although my husband will speak to them occasionally, it's been over a year since I have. I get too pissed. They are teaching their kids to sponge off the government.


These people WILL die when the gravy train ends...

She seems afraid that if she does work, she will not be able to support her husband because his government funded medical care will likely end.
Like the cycle...
medicaid/medicare (rip off by the way) AMA (monopoly) FORCES people to become pets of the government.

Please, do not cut off communication. Things will be only getting worse for them in the future.

Have you done any research...is there any way that she can work...is what she says true?

[LibForestPaul]

I don't see nothing wrong with a little safety net. Some people are blind, have cancer, and do not have the capacity to work a 40 hour job like those who are blessed with good health. How are they going to make enough money to live, if they can barely get out of bed and do menial tasks? A charity can be selective, and not everyone will get help, or have family to help them out. So yes, I can see how those on disablity would persih without some support.

I'm not talking about the federal government, but it should be left to the states to decide the type of disability program. I think part time disability with assistance in training, so that the disabled can make the transition is very pragmatic.

Disability benefits is not a huge drain on the economy, and can help some people get back on their feet instead of dyine or getting worse. Many people only use disability for a couple of years, and then go back to work full time.

I do not believe this at all. I will NOT donating any large sums of money (< $200 a year) to charities BECAUSE I am already taxed for these government services... If I WERE taxed less I WOULD donate more.

[MelissaWV]

Tying threads together... if we could have single-income households again, perhaps those not working full time would have time to volunteer :) People always talk money... but almost never time. Volunteering to help build a house, or even donating one's basic skills of any sort, negate the need for Government care.

The trouble is that most providing services are afraid they'll be sued if anything is off-kilter. Nothing like an impoverished person who gets a botched house and sues the volunteers who put it together eh?

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

He is responding emotionally to logical reasoning. Most likely, he does not, as you believe, people would voluntarily donate money to help the elderly, the sickly, and the challenged.

You reply should go as follows:

Do you believe in helping people? No.

Do you believe most people help others in need? No.

If you yourself were very wealthy, would you help the disabled? No.

Does the government give all the money it steals from people to the disabled? No.

What percentage does it cost to administer this program? Ask somebody in a higher tax bracket.

How many bureaucrats are profiting from you sisters disability? None.

Would should be better served by a different program? If she is not being served well by the government, who competes with the government?

Whomever runs for office has the potential to compete with government, via reform.

You must guide him to the answers...

Be wary of rhetorical questions.

[ClayTrainor]

Check out this response i just got from him, lol.

I sent this message:



First off, don't be so dramatic, nobody wants to see your sister die & certainly not me. You have to understand that there are some serious economic issues at stake here & the US Government spends WAYYYY more money than it takes in. Massive federal spending cuts need to be made. Those like your sister, whose lives are 100% dependent on the system should be the last ones to consider cutting, however I would like to progressively make them less dependent on govt, and help them get better care.

The very first spending Cuts should immediately be made on foreign policy, so that $1 Trillion / year can be spent at home. The basic fact is, The American govt. isn't really providing your disability anymore, countries like China and Saudi Arabia are. you guys are in over $12 Trillion dollars of debt to the world, and your unfunded liabilities on things like welfare and disability are over $50 Trillion.

Obama increasing spending both foreign and domestic. This isn't a sustainable system.

The only method the govt. has of providing these things, is by further taxation of the people, further debt, or inflation and the people are already way over taxed and over-regulated, so the government is just printing all of this money now, which is destroying your dollar. There is absolutely no way your going to pay back these debts, and pay the future liabilities of people like your sister, as well as fund 700 military bases in over 140 nations.

I think your objectives are valid & I share them. There is 1 basic underlying fallacy in all of these social security and welfare measures which is that: "it is possible to do good with other peoples money"

1. In order to do good with other peoples money, you first have to take it away from them. This means, at its core the welfare state philosophy is based on violence & coercion because you have to use force

2. Very few people spend other peoples money as carefully as they spend their own

I know you don't realize it yet, and you probably don't believe me but, your government has failed you big time, and quality of life will be going down due to all this inflation.

The only possible way to take care of people like your sister forever is through Voluntary cooperative action.

If you want to figure out how to do something, figure out how to do it without stealing. Then you've truly figured it out. Until that time your are fooling yourself, and becoming a tool in political games.





His response...


You know what.

Listen to me you lil fucker. We have to have programs for people that can not help themselves. We can't I repeat we can not rely on the goodness of people for human lives. When your a paraplegic and can't work or go to a god damn store. You can tell me about it.

It isn't stealing. It is for the better of human kind. I know for a fucking fact my sister would be dead if it wasn't for disability. I happily pay my taxes to help people like her.

Your way just doesn't work.


Liberals are so angry, lol

Anyone have some good examples of private charity, and whatnot?

[kathy88]

It's called Soylent Green.

Ouch. What a flick.

[PaulaGem]

Eventually, this type of thing has to be left up to charity.

The problem is that "charity" can require you to go to church or believe what they believe in order to get help. That's not a really good solution either.

[satchelmcqueen]

i have a crippled cousin. she was born this way. she was always sad that she was cripple until she got older and saw me and everyone else go off to work and earn a hard living. she now says being cripple is the best. she gets $2200 a month from the gov, her parents have always gotten extra money from the gov for her each month as well. and if that isnt enough, she has always been given EXTRA speacial treatment from everyone with big birthday money, free anything shes ever wanted and it still continues to this day at the age of 34. she even got to go to college for free since shes cripple.

point is, she would have made it in life just fine and better than most WITHOUT monthly checks from the government paid for by you and me. and she even has admitted this.

[PaulaGem]

And then you have someone like myself, still trying to work after being diagnosed with brain damage, but the frustration of not being able to accomplish things like I used to is the "two steps back" for every three steps forward that I manage to make.

I will probably apply for the SSI just because if something happens (another asthma attack, further brain damage) then I will have the medical and pre-qualification for the subsistence income. But I'd rather work. I'd rather get well. Sometimes you just can't.....

[PaulaGem]

just say that private sources can handle it, especially in a good economy which would result if government size were to be reduced (non-essentials such as military and departments first, then entitlements later)

If the government gets straightened out, it will only take a small fraction of what we've been giving away through the Fed and other corporate welfare systems to keep the disabled in a decent lifestyle. Remember, you paid around $20,000 last year to keep AIG and the banks going. If every household had to kick in just 1/10 of that for SSI, care of the homeless, public mental health, etc. It would be doable.

[Sandman33]

Eliminate welfare state for anyone thats CAPABLE of working. Only those truly handicapped will get help. And completely stop supporting immigration and the feeding/schooling of ILLEGAL immigrants.....

Do that and we will have PLENTY of money to help the American Citzens that truly deserve it with money to spare.

[jsu718]

Check out this response i just got from him, lol.

I sent this message:

His response...

Liberals are so angry, lol

Anyone have some good examples of private charity, and whatnot?

The problem with the logic is that paraplegics have no problem working or shopping. The ability to walk isn't required when most jobs require sitting in a chair all day.