Christians? RP hates Isreal??

[RP4ME]

Christains on christian forums are telling me that RP hates Isreal b/c he said we should shut offf aid...well i kind of agreewith RP. She is not a 3rd world country with starving people and Id like to see us get our house in order before to stave off a finacial crisis here. I am a Christain who belives God has a plan for Isreal that he will bring about on his own and he isnt worried that He wont be able to do it if teh US doesnt step in and save HIM. Why do other Christaisn feel so strongly that blessing isreal means we should have policies that bakrupt us, we should die fighting her wars etc? Its not biblical is it??? Anyone? These Christaisn dont care teh other cadidates are CFR etc....as long a stehy suppport Israel - they dont seem to "hear" about NAU world govt b/c they think they are soon to be plucked form teh earth in teh rapture so thats the US's problem not theirs and they will go down supporting Isreal? WHAT UP?????
Enlighten me so I ca better undersatnd them and present a logical case for RP given Isreal is their only deciding issue>

[JosephTheLibertarian]

funny how we have christians that care about a jew country. What is the fascination with this country? It's a police state. It's not a christian state, it's a jewish state lol

[wgadget]

Like the preacher used to say, "They're so heavenly minded that they're no earthly good."

They just need a nudge in the direction of common sense. That's what it took for me.

[jblosser]

No, it's not particularly Biblical. In my experience it basically comes down to envy. They wish they were Hebrews, but since they aren't, they'll tie our nation's future to Israel's.

It's difficult to begin to get through to these people because they don't care about our finances or laws, they care about looking like they are helping Israel. I've got the most out of them by talking about the general conservative notion that government is not the solution, it is the problem, and if we use our government to "help" Israel we end up hurting them instead. We already tell them what to do, and that's with an adminstration that is theoretically friendly to them.


I am a Christain who belives God has a plan for Isreal that he will bring about on his own and he isnt worried that He wont be able to do it if teh US doesnt step in and save HIM.

That's it in a nutshell.

[MikeStanart]

I'm a christian... But my views are on par with RP.

My dad is one of these "Israel Supporting Conservatives". He feels we should "Bless Israel" "Because it says so in the Bible."
While, I may agree with that.. Why does "Blessing" have to be interpreted into financial and military support?



So basically, I tell my dad:

"How can you call yourself a CONSERVATIVE and believe in WELFARE!? Because, that's what we're doing with Israel. In the long run, we're only making them dependent upon us and essentially hurting them!"


(We're giving them money / military support....and we have them on a leash. Israel is perfectly capable of taking care of themselves. If anything, we're holding them back. They have plenty of nukes. It's time to take them off the leash and let them grow.)

[JosephTheLibertarian]

You don't see Catholics falling all over Italy..or the Vatican, so why should christians be pro-Israel?

[RP4ME]

I also think that Christain sheeple are brainwashe dinto beliveing its a key to their faith as Jesus dying for us is. But I am not convinced that there is not another political agenda here that sheeple are succumbing to whilst thinking they are doing teh Lords work. i think teh sheeple are dumb but well intended....but the leaders pusing thsi - I dont knw that they are dunb and well intended - i fear they are samrt and ill intended - not all, soem leaders are sheeple as well and when you hear the same thing on Sunday or vai church leaders - well it must be true and biblical so why look into. There is always teh same passage they quote - bless Isreal - if we curse her we will be cursed - well pressurng her to give up her land by thsi admin for Peace is more of curse tahn anything RP proposes. if anything i think she'd be stronger!

[Paulitician]

I don't care about Israel. To be honest, I don't know why they're so important. They're allies, but, if Ron Paul is right, then they should be able to take care of themselves.

I don't believe Ron Paul hates (well, maybe neo-cons...). He's a pretty good guy.

[RP4ME]

You don't see Catholics falling all over Italy..or the Vatican, so why should christians be pro-Israel?


Well Catholics have defintelly overlooked teh Jews so i dont really looked to tem for this advice....- ex. holocaust. Evangelicals are who i am referring to as they are the ones drivin the Zionist agenda... but I dont think its a qw of RP not being pro-isreal ...b/c if you arent for something you must be against it - I think he is for them acting as a soverign nation and caring for themselves - to me thats PRO israel...

[American]

I also think that Christain sheeple are brainwashe dinto beliveing its a key to their faith as Jesus dying for us is. But I am not convinced that there is not another political agenda here that sheeple are succumbing to whilst thinking they are doing teh Lords work. i think teh sheeple are dumb but well intended....but the leaders pusing thsi - I dont knw that they are dunb and well intended - i fear they are samrt and ill intended - not all, soem leaders are sheeple as well and when you hear the same thing on Sunday or vai church leaders - well it must be true and biblical so why look into. There is always teh same passage they quote - bless Isreal - if we curse her we will be cursed - well pressurng her to give up her land by thsi admin for Peace is more of curse tahn anything RP proposes. if anything i think she'd be stronger!

I would just ask simple question and they can answer that for themselves like
1) why does the united states have to pay for a war that is really to protect Israel (money and blood)
2) why do we also send them over 3 billion dollars a year in "aid" more then the rest of the world combined.
3) At what point do you say OK enough is enough, looking out for the US isnt being anti semitic anymore then being against ILLEGAL immigration is being racist.

Good luck with that though, I think the xtains are also terrorists...but they live here.

IMHO

[LibertyEagle]

Ron Paul does not hate Israel. He is against foreign aid for ALL countries. Israel has a very strong military and a multitude of nuclear weapons. They can take care of themselves. Right now, our country is in dire trouble. We badly need to get our financial house in order and our borders secured.

Nothing on earth is stopping anyone and everyone from freely giving their own money to Israel. But why should anyone be able to take my money by force to support another nation?

[mikelovesgod]

Protestants misinterpret the Bible when it comes to "Israel". The Israel that is mentioned in the New Testament is the New Israel or the converts of Christ. Many Protestants falsely believe it's the country established in 1948 because they believe in some fanciful explanation from the book of Revelations which is analogical, not literal.

[ButchHowdy]

The infamous "Bless Israel" comes from a corruption of Genesis 12:1-3

1.) Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2.) And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3.) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

God was talking to Abram, not Israel who was Abram's future grandson and given the name at 98 years old, not even a GLEAM in ole Abe's eye!

Israel is a person, then a people, but never real estate

[mikelovesgod]

Well Catholics have defintelly overlooked teh Jews so i dont really looked to tem for this advice....- ex. holocaust. Evangelicals are who i am referring to as they are the ones drivin the Zionist agenda... but I dont think its a qw of RP not being pro-isreal ...b/c if you arent for something you must be against it - I think he is for them acting as a soverign nation and caring for themselves - to me thats PRO israel...

Catholics overlooked the Jews? Wow, what hogwash, they were the only ones who did anything for the Jews. Pius XII fought for them and had them hiding in the Vatican, convents and monasteries were hiding them, and Rome's head rabbi renamed himself Eugenio after Pius XII real name when he converted to the Catholic faith for all the Catholics did to save the Jews.

That's why Catholics aren't pro-zionist, nor are they anti-Jew. Your MSM view of Catholics for Jews is so lame I don't know where to start.

[Kregener]

Ron Paul does NOT "hate" Israel.

What he DOES hate is American taxpayer-extorted dollars being endlessly shoveled over there.

And every other country you can think of.

[max]

This is the "rapture ready" crowd. They believe that current events point to the final battle of Armageddon and support of Israel is necessary in order to get beamed up.

Dont even waste your time with this crowd

[M.Bellmore]

I would just ask simple question and they can answer that for themselves like
1) why does the united states have to pay for a war that is really to protect Israel (money and blood)
2) why do we also send them over 3 billion dollars a year in "aid" more then the rest of the world combined.
3) At what point do you say OK enough is enough, looking out for the US isnt being anti semitic anymore then being against ILLEGAL immigration is being racist.

Good luck with that though, I think the xtains are also terrorists...but they live here.

IMHO

Nothing humble about that blanket statement

[braeden0613]

Protestants misinterpret the Bible when it comes to "Israel". The Israel that is mentioned in the New Testament is the New Israel or the converts of Christ. Many Protestants falsely believe it's the country established in 1948 because they believe in some fanciful explanation from the book of Revelations which is analogical, not literal.
Amen to that. I still dont understand why people want to use a verse in Genesis to explain that we should protect Israel. Christians are not bound by the old testament.

[kylebrotherton]

I am a Christian, and I was raised to believe what they're telling you: That God will bless those who bless Israel.

From Genesis 12:
"Now the LORD said to Abram, ...I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse."

There are several problems with their theology.

First of all, the nation now known as Israel is not the same as the ancient Hebrews. It is a secular nation, and was quite recently created.

Second, their interpretation of the scripture uses one specific definition of the word 'bless'; in this case, an alternate definition numbering fifth on Merriam-Webster's list.

BLESS, transitive verb
1 : to hallow or consecrate by religious rite or word
2 : to hallow with the sign of the cross
3 : to invoke divine care for (bless your heart) -- used in the phrase bless you to wish good health especially to one who has just sneezed
4 a : PRAISE, GLORIFY (bless his holy name) b : to speak well of : APPROVE
5 : to confer prosperity or happiness upon
6 archaic : PROTECT, PRESERVE
7 : ENDOW, FAVOR (blessed with athletic ability)

Third, they assume the passage is directed at governments. I would remind them that God instructs us to care for the poor, but most Christians understand that the command is directed at individuals - not government agencies. Likewise, this passage may refer to individuals. If you ask most Christians (myself included), you'll find that they've done little to bless Israel. Perhaps by laying that burden at the feet of the government, they're able to ease their guilt and continue ignoring their own responsibility. It's basically the same attitude liberals have about charity.

Then again, I'm neither a pastor nor a theologian. And I've never debated another Christian on this topic. So be advised that there may be some gaping hole in my position.

[aksmith]

You don't see Catholics falling all over Italy..or the Vatican, so why should christians be pro-Israel?

Actually, I see this all the time. Catholics make the pilgrimage all the time and send money frequently to the Vatican, which is its own country.

And calling Israel a Jew country is just ignorant. It reinforces every negative feeling people have about the Ron Paul campaign hating Jews. In fact, Ron Paul is not a hater of anyone, including Jews. Israel, which I have been to frequently, and have donated my oldest child to, is not a police state. How easy for you sitting in the U.S. to denigrate the very real threats it faces.

What Ron Paul believes is that Israel is not the U.S. and therefore is not entitled to any of our tax money or military lives. And he is correct. But having been there and seen what goes on, no matter how much you hate Israel, and it sure seems you do, there is zero admirable about the Palestinian governments. They have always missed an opportunity to have peace and prosperity for their people. Arafat was famous for never taking yes for an answer. And Hamas is now much the same. Abbas may have been able to make a good deal and find peace for his people, but once again he was undermined by warring factions looking to take over and feather their own nests.

There is no doubt that we should feel for the Palestinian people. But as bad as the Israeli government can be, it is never any worse than the Palestinians'. But apparently, it's a Jew problem and the Palestinians have no say, according to you.

[max]

How easy for you sitting in the U.S. to denigrate the very real threats it faces.




What threat? The threat of of Palestinian kids throwing rocks at Israeli tanks that have bulldozed their homes?

The threat of weaker neighbors who have 0 nukes vs Israel's 300 nukes?

If Israel got of of the illegally occupied territories of 1967 and allowed the palestinains to have their own state....there would be peace. It is the Zionists who are responsible for the hatred.

I would remind you that when Rabin tried to make peace...IT WAS ZIONISTS WHO KILLED THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER...not Palestinians.

Why should the palestinians say "yes" to anything less than the end of the brutal occupation of 1967? If I steal your best suit, and then offer to just give you the trousers back....wouldnt u say .."No...I want the jacket back too"

[aksmith]

Well, we could have this debate all day. I suppose that those ignorant Iraqis and their roadside bombs and AK 47s can't hurt us either. Have you ever been hit be a rock, or a rocket or a bullet? Yeah, that's nothing. And please, we are also a nuclear power, are we going to nuke Iraq? Just as likely as the Israelis nuking the Palestinians.

Israel has lost many soldiers by trying NOT to cause needless injuries to Palestinians. And before you call taking any land "illegal" you'd first have to tell my why it is that when Israel is attacked and takes land from its attackers, it's illegal. Show me anywhere else in the world where a country that was attacked ever gave land won in a war back. Only Israel is expected to give it back.

My daughter got off a bus one day a few years ago. A block later, one of those rock throwing scamp Palestinians killed a bunch of people by blowing up that bus. Forgive me for not being amused by those Palestinian rascals. That's why I say it's easy to denigrate the Israelis while we live fat and happy in the U.S. And it's not just the Palestinians who threaten them. Syria and Iran are direct threats.

Of course, I still believe the U.S. should stay out of Israel, and we should not send any aid or fight any wars in Israel's behalf. And another thing occurs to me. Maybe some Christians like Israel so much because the Palestinians under Arafat tried to murder so many Lebanese Christians and Israel tried to help the Christians.

[dircha]

Christains on christian forums are telling me that RP hates Isreal b/c he said we should shut offf aid...well i kind of agreewith RP. She is not a 3rd world country with starving people and Id like to see us get our house in order before to stave off a finacial crisis here. I am a Christain who belives God has a plan for Isreal that he will bring about on his own and he isnt worried that He wont be able to do it if teh US doesnt step in and save HIM. Why do other Christaisn feel so strongly that blessing isreal means we should have policies that bakrupt us, we should die fighting her wars etc? Its not biblical is it??? Anyone? These Christaisn dont care teh other cadidates are CFR etc....as long a stehy suppport Israel - they dont seem to "hear" about NAU world govt b/c they think they are soon to be plucked form teh earth in teh rapture so thats the US's problem not theirs and they will go down supporting Isreal? WHAT UP?????
Enlighten me so I ca better undersatnd them and present a logical case for RP given Isreal is their only deciding issue>

There is a very real segment of Evangelicals who strongly believe that:
1) The restoration of Israel as a nation in 1948 was the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy ordained by God.
2) Israel will be the final stand for the armies of God against the the armies of Satan and the Antichrist.
3) Christ will return to establish his Millennial Kingdom and rule the earth from the restored Israel.
4) The nations of the Earth will be judged by Christ based on their support for Israel.
5) All of this will take place within the next 50 years.
6) They're dead serious.

And I think you already understand the problem you face; you mention the rapture in particular. The issue you face is one of theology not of politics.

They are quite right, after all, in the following. To someone who believes that the Antichrist is already alive on the Earth, and soon will rapidly consolidate his power to form a one world government that will bring about the return and ultimate victory of Christ and the inevitable end of history, then indeed, why would they act to delay this?

I think with a better understanding of the particular theological positions of your opponents we could help you make a case, but in a fight where time and resources are limited, that seems an even more daunting task than persuading run of the mill neo-conservatives.

[SeanEdwards]

2) why do we also send them over 3 billion dollars a year in "aid" more then the rest of the world combined.


I believe the peace deal between Israel and Egypt that was brokered by the US included a clause that required the US taxpayer to supply both countries with huge amounts of aid.

Basically, we're bribing them to not kill each other. Great deal for us, huh?

[max]

. Show me anywhere else in the world where a country that was attacked ever gave land won in a war back.



Show me anywhere in history where a people under occupation did not resist its oppressors? Ever hear of Mosada? Hannukah? Purim? Warsaw Ghetto?

Why are only Palestinians not allowed to resist?

By the way, Christians under Arafat were well treated...Arafat's wife is Christian

[jblosser]

They are quite right, after all. To someone who believes that the Antichrist is already alive on the Earth, and soon will rapidly consolidate his power to form a one world government that will bring about the return and ultimate victory of Christ and the inevitable end of history, then indeed, why would they act to delay this?

I think with a better understand of the particular theological positions of your opponents we could help you make a case, but in a fight where time and resources are limited, that seems an even more daunting task than persuading run of the mill neo-conservatives.

If they are real conservatives (and a lot of them are) you can still make the case that helping Israel doesn't mean the *US Government* helping Israel, any more than helping the poor/etc. means the government should do it. The American citizens can help Israel all they want. Having our government do it won't help them, it will reduce their sovereignty and put them in a position of servitude, which is not what these people support.

[SeanEdwards]

Show me anywhere in history where a people under occupation did not resist its oppressors? Ever hear of Mosada? Hannukah? Purim? Warsaw Ghetto?

Why are only Palestinians not allowed to resist?

By the way, Christians under Arafat were well treated...Arafat's wife is Christian

The 'occupation' is coming to an end with the unilateral move by Israel to build a huge freakin wall between themselves and their neighbors. All those whacked out arabs will be able to do is howl in frustration about being barred entry into Israel. Some occupation...:rolleyes:

[RP4ME]

The infamous "Bless Israel" comes from a corruption of Genesis 12:1-3

1.) Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2.) And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3.) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

God was talking to Abram, not Israel who was Abram's future grandson and given the name at 98 years old, not even a GLEAM in ole Abe's eye!

Israel is a person, then a people, but never real estate

Yeppers thats the one!

[RP4ME]

Catholics overlooked the Jews? Wow, what hogwash, they were the only ones who did anything for the Jews. Pius XII fought for them and had them hiding in the Vatican, convents and monasteries were hiding them, and Rome's head rabbi renamed himself Eugenio after Pius XII real name when he converted to the Catholic faith for all the Catholics did to save the Jews.

That's why Catholics aren't pro-zionist, nor are they anti-Jew. Your MSM view of Catholics for Jews is so lame I don't know where to start.

Well if I am mistake my apologies. Thansk for that info. I was under teh impression perhaps vai MSM and my history books which granted are flawed taht teh Catholics taht is teh pope looked away druing teh Holocaust - my Jewsih friend reminds me of this....? :confused: I did not mean to offend you and if I am mistaken my apologies...i wasnt meaning to Catholic bash - wasntteh purpose of my comments

[aksmith]

Show me anywhere in history where a people under occupation did not resist its oppressors? Ever hear of Mosada? Hannukah? Purim? Warsaw Ghetto?

Why are only Palestinians not allowed to resist?

By the way, Christians under Arafat were well treated...Arafat's wife is Christian

Oh, give me a break. Tell that to the Christians he tried to mass murder in Lebanon. Arafat didn't treat anyone well, including his own people who he stole from with impunity and lied to with every breath.

Yes, the Palestinians can resist all they want, but they are merely pawns in the bigger picture of the Middle East. Nobody there cares about that Palestinians. In fact the Palestinians and Israelis should be natural allies.

. But you didn't answer my question. And I didn't even mention that the Palestinians can't go to the place where 90 percent of their real homeland is because they tried to overthrow the government of that country in 1974. Yes, Jordanians hate them more than anyone because of that, and it's pretty odd because Jordan is majority Palestinian.

Look more deeply at that problem. Who does this perpetual war benefit. Not the Palestinians. Not the Israelis. And certainly not you and me. There are outside influences that cannot be discounted and who will always be in favor of perpetual war. And I'm not talking conspiracy theories. When the war in Iraq started going badly, we now have been force fed the war on Mexicans. Forget the merits of the policy, but misdirection is the health of the state, when the war is going badly.

[kickzman]

Just gotta remember Neocons=Zionism... So they go hand in hand, and this is what Dr Paul is against, he has ill will towards Jews, Muslims, or Catholics, etc. And whatever happened to separate church and state, b/c Bible says support jews we support the zionist-Israeli government???:confused:

[MicroBalrog]

Christains on christian forums are telling me that RP hates Isreal b/c he said we should shut offf aid..


Tell them that Binyamin Netanyahu opposes the aid.

The aid is not beneficient to Israel's people, only to her political elites.

[mikelovesgod]

Well if I am mistake my apologies. Thansk for that info. I was under teh impression perhaps vai MSM and my history books which granted are flawed taht teh Catholics taht is teh pope looked away druing teh Holocaust - my Jewsih friend reminds me of this....? :confused: I did not mean to offend you and if I am mistaken my apologies...i wasnt meaning to Catholic bash - wasntteh purpose of my comments

Well I'm sick of such uneducated comments coming from the MSM and modern colleges who plagiarize such lies. I'm sorry for seeming so bitter.

Einstein thanked the Catholic Church. So did other numerous Jews. Here are some stories:

Joseph Lichten records that on September 27, 1943, one of the Nazi commanders demanded of the Jewish community in Rome payment of one hundred pounds of gold within thirty-six hours or three hundred Jews would be taken prisoner. When the Jewish Community Council was only able to gather only seventy pounds of gold, they turned to the Vatican.

"In his memoirs, the then Chief Rabbi Zolli of Rome writes that he was sent to the Vatican, where arrangements had already been made to receive him as an ‘engineer’ called to survey a construction problem so that the Gestapo on watch at the Vatican would not bar his entry. He was met by the Vatican treasurer and secretary of state, who told him that the Holy Father himself had given orders for the deficit to be filled with gold vessels taken from the Treasury."

The Pope’s efforts did not go unrecognized by Jewish authorities, even during the War. The Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, sent the Pope a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944, in which he said: "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of divine Providence in this world."

"When Zolli accepted baptism in 1945 and adopted Pius’s Christian name of Eugene, most Roman Jews were convinced that his conversion was an act of gratitude for wartime succor to Jewish refugees and, repeated denials not withstanding, many are still of his opinion. Thus, Rabbi Barry Dov Schwartz wrote in the summer issue, 1964, of Conservative Judaism: ‘Many Jews were persuaded to convert after the war, as a sign of gratitude, to that institution which had saved their lives.’ "

*** My note... why are only Catholics persecuted for not helping the Jews when there was no other religion who did so much to save them. The # of Jews saved by Catholic efforts is close to 860,000. Read the story of Rabbi Zolli who become Eugenio Zolli and wrote a book "Why I Became a Catholic".

The same slanders against Ron Paul are eerily familiar to the smears given to Catholics by the MSM.

[Perry]

I think Ron Paul loves Israel more than most people know.

[RP4ME]

Tell them that Binyamin Netanyahu opposes the aid.

The aid is not beneficient to Israel's people, only to her political elites.

Okay but how is Netenyaho not a political elite and fyi for teh conspiracy theorist he is a msaon.....

[RP4ME]

I think Ron Paul loves Israel more than most people know.

i agree but if we dont turn ourselves into apretzel for them soem christaisn wont go there....

[RP4ME]

Well I'm sick of such uneducated comments coming from the MSM and modern colleges who plagiarize such lies. I'm sorry for seeming so bitter.

Einstein thanked the Catholic Church. So did other numerous Jews. Here are some stories:

Joseph Lichten records that on September 27, 1943, one of the Nazi commanders demanded of the Jewish community in Rome payment of one hundred pounds of gold within thirty-six hours or three hundred Jews would be taken prisoner. When the Jewish Community Council was only able to gather only seventy pounds of gold, they turned to the Vatican.

"In his memoirs, the then Chief Rabbi Zolli of Rome writes that he was sent to the Vatican, where arrangements had already been made to receive him as an ‘engineer’ called to survey a construction problem so that the Gestapo on watch at the Vatican would not bar his entry. He was met by the Vatican treasurer and secretary of state, who told him that the Holy Father himself had given orders for the deficit to be filled with gold vessels taken from the Treasury."

The Pope’s efforts did not go unrecognized by Jewish authorities, even during the War. The Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, sent the Pope a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944, in which he said: "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of divine Providence in this world."

"When Zolli accepted baptism in 1945 and adopted Pius’s Christian name of Eugene, most Roman Jews were convinced that his conversion was an act of gratitude for wartime succor to Jewish refugees and, repeated denials not withstanding, many are still of his opinion. Thus, Rabbi Barry Dov Schwartz wrote in the summer issue, 1964, of Conservative Judaism: ‘Many Jews were persuaded to convert after the war, as a sign of gratitude, to that institution which had saved their lives.’ "

*** My note... why are only Catholics persecuted for not helping the Jews when there was no other religion who did so much to save them. The # of Jews saved by Catholic efforts is close to 860,000. Read the story of Rabbi Zolli who become Eugenio Zolli and wrote a book "Why I Became a Catholic".

The same slanders against Ron Paul are eerily familiar to the smears given to Catholics by the MSM.

Again my purpsoe wasnt singling out the CAtholics - it was really focused on debating RP Israel and with Evangelicals - and I agree that Catholics werent the only ones rightly or wrongly accused of overlooking the Holocaust....Thanks for the above info....i was not aware of this. :)

[Grandson of Liberty]

It's quite true that most Christians hold a special place in their heart for Israel. I am one of them. The quote below fits me almost perfectly (although I would never guarantee a time frame such as #5):


There is a very real segment of Evangelicals who strongly believe that:
1) The restoration of Israel as a nation in 1948 was the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy ordained by God.
2) Israel will be the final stand for the armies of God against the the armies of Satan and the Antichrist.
3) Christ will return to establish his Millennial Kingdom and rule the earth from the restored Israel.
4) The nations of the Earth will be judged by Christ based on their support for Israel.
5) All of this will take place within the next 50 years.
6) They're dead serious.


. . .and I love Ron Paul!! Some people here have dismissed Christians as a lost cause. I could not disagree more. If you really want to get the evangelicals, and if Israel is the make-or-break issue for them, then I think it would be important to point out that just because we end foreign aid to them does not mean we have "turned against them." I'm sure we would continue to sell top-notch weapons systems to them, and obviously trade with them. If anything, with us ending foreign aid, it would also end the strings attached that keep them from handling their soveriegn affairs in the way they see fit.

Hope this helps. I'd be happy to role-play if you have anything you want to run by a "prospective Christian Ron Paul convert"!

[SeanEdwards]

Again my purpsoe wasnt singling out the CAtholics

All the yahweh cults suck equally hard. No need to single one out. ;)

[RP4ME]

It's quite true that most Christians hold a special place in their heart for Israel. I am one of them. The quote below fits me almost perfectly (although I would never guarantee a time frame such as #5):



. . .and I love Ron Paul!! Some people here have dismissed Christians as a lost cause. I could not disagree more. If you really want to get the evangelicals, and if Israel is the make-or-break issue for them, then I think it would be important to point out that just because we end foreign aid to them does not mean we have "turned against them." I'm sure we would continue to sell top-notch weapons systems to them, and obviously trade with them. If anything, with us ending foreign aid, it would also end the strings attached that keep them from handling their soveriegn affairs in the way they see fit.

Hope this helps. I'd be happy to role-play if you have anything you want to run by a "prospective Christian Ron Paul convert"!

Thanks - yes I think they are a significant and important group and whiel more of a challenge - i often find them mor ein my sphere of influence than any other group...I am with you with teh exception of number 5 as well b/c I cant know that but it would not suprise me if ite even less time. I have presented essentially the same arguments - hasnt worked so far so I have tended to think I was missing a portionof teh issue, but it seems not - its just hard to see what you dont want tosee and its one of the mind altering exp. that turns your "reality" on its head - which is the worst feeling. It like everyminute on thsi board for me .....its hard to do. Somtimes I dont want to come here b/c I know i may learn something taht I dont want to hear could be true.....

[literatim]

I have done much study on prophecy and the Israelites. Any Christian that actually believes that somehow that piece of land over there any any state or its people residing there are somehow blessed by God need to study their Bible more. The temple of Jerusalem was forsaken by God as He forsook Shiloh before it. This prophecy was (partially) fulfilled at the fall of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.

Jeremiah 26:1-6 In the beginning of the reign of King Jehoiakim son of Josiah, there came this word from the Lord: 2Thus said the Lord; Stand in the court of the Lord's house, and you shall declare to all the Judeans, and to all that come to worship in the house of the Lord, all the words which I commanded you to speak to them; do not leave out one word. 3Perhaps they will listen, and turn from their evil ways; then I will cease from the evils which I purpose to do to them, because of their evil practices. 4And you shall say, Thus said the Lord: If you will not hearken to Me, to walk in My statutes which I set before you, 5 to hearken to the words of My servants the prophets, whom I sent to you early in the morning; yes, I sent them, but you hearkened not to Me; 6then will I make this house as Shiloh, and I will make this city a curse to all the nations of all the earth.

[Corydoras]

A great way to HELP Israel is to stop giving foreign aid to the countries around it that want to harm it.
And that is something Ron Paul will do.

[TheDuke]

A great way to HELP Israel is to stop giving foreign aid to the countries around it that want to harm it.
And that is something Ron Paul will do.

I can't blame those countries wanting to harm Israel. Stop believing MSM reports please :rolleyes:

[Corydoras]

Stop believing MSM reports please :rolleyes:

Stop jumping to conclusions, please.

[Lois]

Israel (government) is a leach and a bully.

[Corydoras]

Why do other Christaisn feel so strongly that blessing isreal means we should have policies that bakrupt us, we should die fighting her wars etc?

For one thing, they do not understand the scope of the federal deficit and they do not understand that it's a Biblical precept not to spend past one's means.

For another thing, they do not understand that when the Paul administration lowers our taxes, they could contribute what they got to Israeli causes, if they feel so strongly about it.

[Ozwest]

Israel will always be financially and militarily the most powerful player in the Middle East. Cutting the apron strings between the Jewish lobby and Washington will reduce the threat of terrorism worldwide and encourage Israelies to negotiate with their neighbours... The best way of establishing dialogue between Jews and Arabs is by peaceful trade not summits and political gestures... The understanding that the prosperity of ALL nations in the region is of mutual benefit is the defining solution to repairing centuries of hate and prejudice. Sounds like a Ron Paul solution to me.

[ButchHowdy]

Israel will always be financially and militarily the most powerful player in the Middle East. Cutting the apron strings between the Jewish lobby and Washington will reduce the threat of terrorism worldwide and encourage Israelies to negotiate with their neighbours... The best way of establishing dialogue between Jews and Arabs is by peaceful trade not summits and political gestures... The understanding that the prosperity of ALL nations in the region is of mutual benefit is the defining solution to repairing centuries of hate and prejudice. Sounds like a Ron Paul solution to me.

Exactimundo!

And, a thorough audit of AIPAC will cause much weeping and gnashing of teeth in Washington. . .

[Minlawc]

Israel (government) is a leach and a bully.

Your right!
Shame on them for buying their land first, and wanting to split it to have a Palistinian sate and Jewish state (Where the jews had the majority population, Leaches). They should have took the land by force, pushed all Palistinians off their land, kill most of them, and give them a slice in crappiest part of the country...

Say what you want about Israel, but we're 100 times worse.

[bygone]

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c28/chantalemo/2af480fe50128bd2ec33bde5de69cacd.gif

[Ozwest]

When Religious dogma gets in the way of peace and prosperity, clouding fair and balanced debate, Aethiests breath a heavy sigh....

[Thurston Howell III]

Christains on christian forums are telling me that RP hates Isreal b/c he said we should shut offf aid...


Those "Christians" are NeoCons. They tell you that because they hate Ron Paul. They hate Ron Paul because he represents freedom. They hate freedom because it threatens the power they hold over others, either real or imagined.

Ron Paul is merely saying government does not have authority to gift money (our money) to another country. That's welfare on a global scale and is simply illegal.
I would kindly ask those church people to point to that section in the Constitution that authorized such gifting. They can't. Do they then advocate violating the Constitution, or working to "reform" it? Naw, they will call you names, place labels all over you and revel in their indignation. They will do anything but rationally discuss the law of the land.

I would also ask these folks, in return, what their own efforts are their battle to save Israel. Are they working through charitable organizations, taking up collections at church, canvassing neighborhoods, etc. for the cause in Israel, or are they sitting in their stuffed shirts in their overstuffed Lazyboys demanding that you and I be forced to cough it up for their cause whether or not we even beleive in it.

So, if they want to go fight that cause, I say go for it. But, I choose not to. That is, if I had a choice, that's what I'd do.

[M.Bellmore]

Those "Christians" are NeoCons. They tell you that because they hate Ron Paul. They hate Ron Paul because he represents freedom. They hate freedom because it threatens the power they hold over others, either real or imagined.

Ron Paul is merely saying government does not have authority to gift money (our money) to another country. That's welfare on a global scale and is simply illegal.
I would kindly ask those church people to point to that section in the Constitution that authorized such gifting. They can't. Do they then advocate violating the Constitution, or working to "reform" it? Naw, they will call you names, place labels all over you and revel in their indignation. They will do anything but rationally discuss the law of the land.

I would also ask these folks, in return, what their own efforts are their battle to save Israel. Are they working through charitable organizations, taking up collections at church, canvassing neighborhoods, etc. for the cause in Israel, or are they sitting in their stuffed shirts in their overstuffed Lazyboys demanding that you and I be forced to cough it up for their cause whether or not we even beleive in it.

So, if they want to go fight that cause, I say go for it. But, I choose not to. That is, if I had a choice, that's what I'd do.

Amen! #1 priority is that the government live within its means. Heck if we didn't have federal income tax that is just more money you could give to worthy causes (as defined by the individual, not the government)

[Ozwest]

Seperation of Church and State... America was founded on this principle due to the religious persecution of Europe's Rulers. Don't flip - flop.

[Ozwest]

Double Amen!!! From the Athiest.

[Bradley in DC]

"Paul was in Congress when Israel bombed Iraq's Osirak nuclear plant in 1981 and — unlike the United Nations and the Reagan administration — defended its right to do so. He says Saudi Arabia has an influence on Washington equal to Israel's. His votes against support for Israel follow quite naturally from his opposition to all foreign aid. There is no sign that they reflect any special animus against the Jewish state."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/22/magazine/22Paul-t.html

[Ozwest]

Agreed. Unfortunately, perceptions rule, not truth... Too late when the bombs start dropping.

[literatim]

Your right!
Shame on them for buying their land first, and wanting to split it to have a Palistinian sate and Jewish state (Where the jews had the majority population, Leaches). They should have took the land by force, pushed all Palistinians off their land, kill most of them, and give them a slice in crappiest part of the country...

Say what you want about Israel, but we're 100 times worse.

Israel did take the land by force. Do you think the Palestinians just gifted the land the Israelis stole in 1967?

Frankly I don't care what the Israelis or anyone else does in the Middle East. They can invade anyone they please. What I do care about is the fact that we pay for it all and do a lot of their dirty work.


Seperation of Church and State... America was founded on this principle due to the religious persecution of Europe's Rulers.

... No.

[Ozwest]

Why risk World War 3 over land mass and populations similar to Rhode Island. GET A GRIP!!!

[mconder]

The threat of weaker neighbors who have 0 nukes vs Israel's 300 nukes?

Isreal nuking the Palitines would be like San Diego nuking Tijuana. Nobody wants nukes going off in their next door neighbor's yard.

[1000-points-of-fright]

Religion truly is the opiate of the masses. Clear thinking, rational people would not (for the most part) do most of the things that are done in the name of God. These millennial dominionist evangelicals irritate me. God is all powerful and all knowing and yet he needs their help accomplishing his pre-ordained plan? God's just not working fast enough apparently. Sort of questions their trust in God doesn't it?

To answer an earlier question as to why they think our government should give aid to Israel instead of their own private donations.... because they think the US is a Christian theocracy and a Christian nation would help Israel.

[Ozwest]

Listen to Ron Paul. Get some perspective. Do not become entangled. Look after #1 and SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!

[dircha]

Religion truly is the opiate of the masses. Clear thinking, rational people would not (for the most part) do most of the things that are done in the name of God.

Is most of what is done in the name of God a secret? Well then I apologize. Let me tell you, and anyone else who may have been given a confused message, what in fact is done in the name of God for most American Evangelical Christians.

1) Potlucks after church where families gather to build community and relationships.
2) Weekly Bible study groups where people young and old get together in small groups with other members of their community to talk about the problems they are facing in real life and help and support others to get through their own.
3) Wednesday night events for children to keep them off the streets and out of trouble and give them the opportunity to build relationships and character in a fun and safe setting.
4) Saturday and Summer weekday events for young adults to get them off the streets and provide a safe and supportive setting where they can build relationships, share their faith, and most importantly, have a lot of fun.
5) Summer church softball leagues where members of the community can get together and have good old-fashioned American fun and compete in a safe and affirming setting.
6) Prayer call chains where members of the community support one another as they struggle through the often trying and intimate problems that real people face in their every day lives, sharing trust, and sharing understanding that brings the community closer together and makes them stronger.
7) Sunday morning church service where the entire community comes together to share the common experience, hope, and values that unite them, to contemplate, to make amends, to touch base, to put life in perspective, and to be renewed and refreshed to meet the trials and tribulations of the week to come as they struggle through life.

The way some people on these forums and in the media characterize Evangelicals, they'd have you think their lives revolve around some kind of Sunday morning anti-homosexual, anti-abortion, anti-Islam pep rally. This couldn't be further from reality for most Evangelicals.

Maybe this community isn't right for you at this point in your life. But as you grow older and come to have a family of your own, and feel yourself tied down and struggling through the every day problems that most American families face, that perhaps seem trivial to you now, remember that the church community will always welcome you in, no matter what you've done, no matter where you're at, and the more open and humble you are the more you will stand to gain and the stronger you and your family and your community will become.

[Corydoras]

Thank you for your stirring defense of the evangelicals, which I am sure will be news to some people.


The way some people on these forums and in the media characterize Evangelicals, they'd have you think their lives revolve around some kind of Sunday morning anti-homosexual, anti-abortion, anti-Islam pep rally.

But if that isn't true, why don't evangelicals-- excepting your post-- say it isn't true?

[rich34]

Israel was not even a country until what 1947? The people are being duped by the religous leaders and the politicans into supporting Israel.

In the book of Hebrews you'll read that the jews rejected God's call for salvation through Christ and God then told his followers to take His message to the gentiles and that NOW whomever accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior "THEY" are spiritual jews. NOT the "country" Israel.

[Ozwest]

Omnipetence based on here-say gets me every time. I prefer not to start World War 3 based on a confliction of Religious beliefs.

[dircha]

Thank you for your stirring defense of the evangelicals, which I am sure will be news to some people.
But if that isn't true, why don't evangelicals-- excepting your post-- say it isn't true?

Is it your impression that most characterize their church community lives as revolving around these highly politicized issues? I don't mean to suggest that most Evangelicals won't generally report a pro-life position when asked or polled, or that there aren't a minority of churches who make activism on these wedge issues their priority, but I do mean that these highly politicized, abstract issues, do not characterize every day life and every day community as an average Evangelical Christian in America.

Trying to get a sense of what it means to be an Evangelical by looking at outspoken national leaders, provocative radio hosts, authors, and activists, might give a picture of what it means to be a highly politicized activist, but it gives a very inaccurate picture of what it means to be a Christian in America day in and day out.

Evangelicals are just like most Americans in that the positions they report when polled on national issues are primarily influenced by elite, outspoken national activists. But these positions have very little relevance in their every day lives and do not characterize their day in and day out participation in their communities of faith.

[Ozwest]

Hamadeh... The You Tube is too long right now but I will watch it later. In the middle of cooking a Madras Curry from scratch (a favourite). Athiests usually come from deeply Religious families and understand the institutionalisation involved. I have respect for faith (meek-pious-genorous) not self- righteous aggressive faith controlled by greedy self-serving charletons. I trust Ron Paul because he is the former. Degrees...

[fedup100]

This is a real problem for Ron Paul and why the Christians won't endorse him. I am a hard core real right wing Christian. I agree with Ron Paul 100%.

Here is the problem, the Bible says that in the end time the very elect would be deceived. They the very elect believe that the Jew is Israel. I after much study and reading have come to the conclusion this is not true and the Jews know it. They have assumed Israel's identity in order to steal her inheritance and protections.

Christians are being used by this group and their children will continually die for them.

There is no answer to this it is very complicated and convoluted, just the way the Jew wants to keep it.

[Akus]

Christains on christian forums are telling me that RP hates Isreal b/c he said we should shut offf aid...well i kind of agreewith RP. She is not a 3rd world country with starving people and Id like to see us get our house in order before to stave off a finacial crisis here. I am a Christain who belives God has a plan for Isreal that he will bring about on his own and he isnt worried that He wont be able to do it if teh US doesnt step in and save HIM. Why do other Christaisn feel so strongly that blessing isreal means we should have policies that bakrupt us, we should die fighting her wars etc? Its not biblical is it??? Anyone? These Christaisn dont care teh other cadidates are CFR etc....as long a stehy suppport Israel - they dont seem to "hear" about NAU world govt b/c they think they are soon to be plucked form teh earth in teh rapture so thats the US's problem not theirs and they will go down supporting Isreal? WHAT UP?????
Enlighten me so I ca better undersatnd them and present a logical case for RP given Isreal is their only deciding issue>

RP4ME, the harvest is very plentiful with people who have never heard of Ron paul. I've had people walk away because they're pro-choice and perceive RP as pro-life. I've had peple walk away when told that he is a non-interventionist and wants to leave Iraq immediately. What is a turn off to some is a turn on to others.

Yes, for some people, the candidate could have hired a hitman to kill a political opponent, for all they care, but as long as he says jesus jesus jesus jesus jesus jesus in every other sentence, they will vote for him. Those are lost souls, their eyes and ears are too closed and an world outside of their Jesus bubble intimidates and confuses them. Let them in peace. They won't show up at primaries anyway, hell, they're lucky if they even know what a primary is. Yet it is those with a clue that will register Republican and will vote in primaries, who will determine who will represent the Republicans this election.

So don't be so down about it. Plenty of people thirsting for Ron Paul's message, who are Christians and whose head is open to new ideas and thoughts.

[Corydoras]

these highly politicized, abstract issues, do not characterize every day life and every day community as an average Evangelical Christian in America.

It sounds like they're so turned inward on their own religious community that they don't know, or don't care, how they're coming across to others in their geographic proimity.

[Ozwest]

Surely, to believe in the Scriptures LITERALLY is worriesome. Blind faith, is not what Jesus preached. He especially warned against "false prophets" and he spoke and acted against institutional power. Surely if he walked today, he would condemn the current "Priests" and throw their money down the temple steps or expose them for the hypocrites they are.

[mikelovesgod]

There is a very real segment of Evangelicals who strongly believe that:
1) The restoration of Israel as a nation in 1948 was the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy ordained by God.
2) Israel will be the final stand for the armies of God against the the armies of Satan and the Antichrist.
3) Christ will return to establish his Millennial Kingdom and rule the earth from the restored Israel.
4) The nations of the Earth will be judged by Christ based on their support for Israel.
5) All of this will take place within the next 50 years.
6) They're dead serious.

And I think you already understand the problem you face; you mention the rapture in particular. The issue you face is one of theology not of politics.

They are quite right, after all, in the following. To someone who believes that the Antichrist is already alive on the Earth, and soon will rapidly consolidate his power to form a one world government that will bring about the return and ultimate victory of Christ and the inevitable end of history, then indeed, why would they act to delay this?

I think with a better understanding of the particular theological positions of your opponents we could help you make a case, but in a fight where time and resources are limited, that seems an even more daunting task than persuading run of the mill neo-conservatives.

Which unfortunately has no history of belief before 1948. There is no history of Christianity who believed in this. This is a horrible understanding of Scripture that has been twisted to believe something it doesn't. I've met enough evangelicals to know they really believe this. How I don't know. I ask them to point to any Catholic or Protestant theologian who believed this before 48'. Of course they can't.

It's revisionism and the worst part is they really believe this garbage.

[Perry]

I consider myself a pretty far right Christian and i support Israel & Ron Paul. I also communicate on a few popular Christian web forums and know many Christians who support both Israel & Ron Paul. If you are confused about the times we live in but believe the bible then the safe bet is to Support Israel via non-violent means. You can appose the land for peace garbage without supporting war. There are also numerous private charitable organizations to donate to that have nothing to do with the military industrial complex. Remember even the elect will be led astray.

[rich34]

Israel is run by Zionists, they are NOT of God and should NOT be supported. They have enough money as it is and can support itself. Again the Christians have been duped into supporting Israel by the pastors and the politicans. "even the very elect shall be decieved." Who do you think the very elect are? God's own people!

[RP4ME]

A great way to HELP Israel is to stop giving foreign aid to the countries around it that want to harm it.
And that is something Ron Paul will do.

I agree they go silent when I mention that hello bush is giving away biliions in weaponry to teh Saudis et al.....that doesnt seem to be too Isreal frindly.....oh but I am the one who is "lost" apparnetly ;)

I nee dto ge more educated on ME history before Isreal and after and CIA involvement etc.....

[Ozwest]

Oh great, by ALL MEANS I want to go right along with the Armeggedon scenario. Get STUFFED! How about I give you a real big nipple tweak and we try to live another millenium!

[Perry]

Israel is run by Zionists, they are NOT of God and should NOT be supported. They have enough money as it is and can support itself. Again the Christians have been duped into supporting Israel by the pastors and the politicans. "even the very elect shall be decieved." Who do you think the very elect are? God's own people!

Like it or not there will always be enough support to maintain Israel. It is a small nation and God will see to it that she is upheld. There is nothing that anyone can do to stop it and no matter how much animosity there is around the globe there will always be at least tens of millions of people working to help her survive.
I will always support Israel. By the way i have rarely attended church and i assure you that no politician has duped me. I do take Ron Pauls advice though.:)

[lucius]

Christains on christian forums are telling me that RP hates Isreal b/c he said we should shut offf aid...well i kind of agreewith RP. She is not a 3rd world country with starving people and Id like to see us get our house in order before to stave off a finacial crisis here. I am a Christain who belives God has a plan for Isreal that he will bring about on his own and he isnt worried that He wont be able to do it if teh US doesnt step in and save HIM. Why do other Christaisn feel so strongly that blessing isreal means we should have policies that bakrupt us, we should die fighting her wars etc? Its not biblical is it??? Anyone? These Christaisn dont care teh other cadidates are CFR etc....as long a stehy suppport Israel - they dont seem to "hear" about NAU world govt b/c they think they are soon to be plucked form teh earth in teh rapture so thats the US's problem not theirs and they will go down supporting Isreal? WHAT UP?????
Enlighten me so I ca better undersatnd them and present a logical case for RP given Isreal is their only deciding issue>

You can’t really tell them to pull that manipulating, cooked, inculcating 'Scofield Reference Bible' out of there *ss, furthermore Rick Warren is nothing but a CFR shill, whose ‘real purpose driven life’ is jamming NWO mantras down their collective throats—no win with this approach. :)

Fortunately, I was passing out Dr. Paul dvds/SOF at a Baptist church this morning; here is a little of my experience from trenches. By the way, I was in my black with white lettering t-shirt that says on the front ‘Live Free or Die, Ron Paul 2008’ and on the back ‘Vote Ron Paul and Win a Free Republic’ and I was packing mucho dvds; I sat on the center first pew so everybody in the back could see my shirt. I stayed for two services, nursery bible school and ate lunch with them; passed out all my materials. Many understand that there is little difference between Democrats & Republicans and are confused on who to vote for this election—slam dunk for Dr. Paul. For the ‘Christian Zionists United for Israel’, I slip them my ‘Dead in Water: USS Liberty Attack’ dvd which sort of highlights grande cognitive dissonance between ‘support the Troops and support Israel’, don’t let them go until they acknowledge that with 400+ nuclear weapons, nobody is taking Israel off the map and they can turn the whole middle east into a sheet of glass at their whim.

PS: I was trained by Jesuits, extremely comfortable in these environments, sell ice to Eskimos etc...

[Akus]

RP4ME, one more thing. You should mention that Ron Paul wants to end federal government aid to abortion clinics and anything abortion related. Jesus crew'd eat this up.

[bygone]

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/squirrellywrath1972/LolCatRenderer-23.jpg

[aksmith]

This is a real problem for Ron Paul and why the Christians won't endorse him. I am a hard core real right wing Christian. I agree with Ron Paul 100%.

Here is the problem, the Bible says that in the end time the very elect would be deceived. They the very elect believe that the Jew is Israel. I after much study and reading have come to the conclusion this is not true and the Jews know it. They have assumed Israel's identity in order to steal her inheritance and protections.

Christians are being used by this group and their children will continually die for them.

There is no answer to this it is very complicated and convoluted, just the way the Jew wants to keep it.

Oh, dear god. Stop believing fictitious stories. And please stop theorizing based on fictitious stories. God is a couple of misfiring neurons in the human brain, just like conservatives and liberals are a few different misfiring neurons. We, as humans, need to overcome our hardwiring in order to be rational and live peacefully with each other. If you think one Jew in the world spent a second trying to confuse you, they actually didn't have to bother, did they.

People, please think about this rationally for a moment. Your god neurons are on steroids or something. Give them a rest and realize all your theories mean nothing. You will die having held ridiculous beliefs and having accomplished nothing tangible in this world besides possibly passing those ridiculous beliefs on to your children. You might as well just break their legs instead. It may do them less harm.

Read The True Believer by Eric Hoffer and if you don't all recognize yourself in this brilliant work, you're just lying to yourself. Then stop acting like one cell of a very stupid multicellular organism and start thinking for yourself. Bibles, tea leaves, rolling bones, the I Ching . . . . all the same. But a Ouija board is much more fun.

[RP4ME]

You can’t really tell them to pull that manipulating, cooked, inculcating 'Scofield Reference Bible' out of there *ss, furthermore Rick Warren is nothing but a CFR shill, whose ‘real purpose driven life’ is jamming NWO mantras down their collective throats—no win with this approach. :)

Fortunately, I was passing out Dr. Paul dvds/SOF at a Baptist church this morning; here is a little of my experience from trenches. By the way, I was in my black with white lettering t-shirt that says on the front ‘Live Free or Die, Ron Paul 2008’ and on the back ‘Vote Ron Paul and Win a Free Republic’ and I was packing mucho dvds; I sat on the center first pew so everybody in the back could see my shirt. I stayed for two services, nursery bible school and ate lunch with them; passed out all my materials. Many understand that there is little difference between Democrats & Republicans and are confused on who to vote for this election—slam dunk for Dr. Paul. For the ‘Christian Zionists United for Israel’, I slip them my ‘Dead in Water: USS Liberty Attack’ dvd which sort of highlights grande cognitive dissonance between ‘support the Troops and support Israel’, don’t let them go until they acknowledge that with 400+ nuclear weapons, nobody is taking Israel off the map and they can turn the whole middle east into a sheet of glass at their whim.

PS: I was trained by Jesuits, extremely comfortable in these environments, sell ice to Eskimos etc...
Re: Rick Warren - is his association with CFR speculative on yoru part b/c of his watered down Jesus message or b/c of the WORLD PEACE movement he promotes.....??? Or is there info on him working with CFR?

[RP4ME]

Never mind I see an article where he admits to it! Unstinkingbeliveable! How wonderfully deceptice are our churches.....

[Ozwest]

There's balanced faith that incorporates the 21'st Century. It is non-threatening, peaceful, and thoughtful. Then there's blind faith, almost masochistic in its zealousness, and fatalistic in its ordained outcomes. If it wasn't so dangerous it would be laughable.

[Oratio]

There is no treaty of alliance between Israel and the USA.

There is a treaty of friendship, but not an alliance.

The treaty of friendship merely allows for commerce between the two nations.

So technically, to say that Israel is America's greatest ally is not correct.

Israel may be friendly to the US and vice versa, but there is no formal alliance between the two.

Also, you wish to see who owns the "federal" "reserve".

http://www.save-a-patriot.org/files/view/whofed.html

As you can see, at the top of the list, are the Rothschilds of Europe. During the American Revolution, the Rothschilds of Europe hired 18,000 German Hetians to fight against the Continental Army of General George Washington.

[rich34]

Like it or not there will always be enough support to maintain Israel. It is a small nation and God will see to it that she is upheld. There is nothing that anyone can do to stop it and no matter how much animosity there is around the globe there will always be at least tens of millions of people working to help her survive.
I will always support Israel. By the way i have rarely attended church and i assure you that no politician has duped me. I do take Ron Pauls advice though.:)

Who is Israel? The country? The jews? God's true people?

The country of Israel was not founded until 1947. It was founded by Zionists which are NOT God's people. As for jews most of them do not even believe in Christ. Are they God's people? Or is it what Hebrews refers to as spiritual jews? A spiritual jew is anyone that accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior they are now God's true people. I believe in Christ, but the elites are using Christianity to get what they want. "even the very elect will be decieved." Hence duping the people. Christ said said it would happen and it's been happening for quite sometime, but the very elect are being decieved and they don't even know it. "blessed are the peace makers"

[rich34]

delete

[rich34]

delete lol

[Oratio]

PS: I was trained by Jesuits, extremely comfortable in these environments, sell ice to Eskimos etc...

I was trained by Calvinists, who met the armies of the Jesuits on the field of battle that culminated in the Treaty of Westphalia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_westphalia).

This is not to say, that today, I view you as an enemy. And yes, I too, am well educated on the vices of the Illuminatti, the Masons, Regimini militantis ecclesiae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuit_order) (the Jesuit Order), and many other monastic entities, including the Knights of Malta, the Knights of Columbus, and Opus Dei.

The US Ranger Creed is modeled after the Calvinist creed.

If you desire to worship God through the Pope, it is your right. If I do not, it is mine, and no earthly power has any right, "divine" or otherwise, to dictate a matter of conscience on the subject.

Catholics and Protestants, in my opinion, should not fight one another, but recognize and respect one another as brethren, who, by the Grace of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, both may be saved, for it not flesh and blood with which we are at war, but spiritual wickedness in high places, and the mind of man is mortal, finite, whereas the mind of God is immortal and infinite.

Therefore, in the Spirit of Peace and Salvation, I honor your input on the issues.

Peace.

[lucius]

I was trained by Calvinists, who met the armies of the Jesuits on the field of battle that culminated in the Treaty of Westphalia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_westphalia).

This is not to say, that today, I view you as an enemy. And yes, I too, am well educated on the vices of the Illuminatti, the Masons, Regimini militantis ecclesiae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuit_order) (the Jesuit Order), and many other monastic entities, including the Knights of Malta, the Knights of Columbus, and Opus Dei.

The US Ranger Creed is modeled after the Calvinist creed.

If you desire to worship God through the Pope, it is your right. If I do not, it is mine, and no earthly power has any right, "divine" or otherwise, to dictate a matter of conscience on the subject.

Catholics and Protestants, in my opinion, should not fight one another, but recognize and respect one another as brethren, who, by the Grace of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, both may be saved, for it not flesh and blood with which we are at war, but spiritual wickedness in high places, and the mind of man is mortal, finite, whereas the mind of God is immortal and infinite.

Therefore, in the Spirit of Peace and Salvation, I honor your input on the issues.

Peace.

Peace to you as well, 'twisted by Jesuits' would be more appropriate. I try to be Christ-like, but often do not succeed. My jaded view is that organized religions are always corrupted for control purposes. I think there is a multitude of narrow paths to the same end and no one belief-set has a monopoly, look to where the rain falls...the rain falls on all of humanity.

[fj45lvr]

tell them that Jesus called the Jewish leaders "the children of Satan".

that should dispel this false teaching of simply your "lineage" as granting "special privelege". Since Jesus as the Christ literally fulfilled the prophecies of the King and Messiah of the Jews coming from "Israel" today's remnant of Jewish are loved just as all mankind and hopefully this remnant would come to know salvation.

Not all Christians believe that the modern day "state" of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Such belief in my opinion is another example of deception and false teaching within the "church" that supports the aims of Satan "to kill, steal, and destroy" (precisely the aim of zionist leaders in their conquering of Arab lands, killing or driving out the inhabitants and destroying their villages and building their own)

[Oratio]

Peace to you as well, 'twisted by Jesuits' would be more appropriate. I try to be Christ-like, but often do not succeed. My jaded view is that organized religions are always corrupted for control purposes. I think there is a multitude of narrow paths to the same end and no one belief-set has a monopoly, look to where the rain falls...the rain falls on all of humanity.

You are closer to Christ than you know Lucius. God makes the sun shine upon the just as well as the unjust.

The beauty of true Christianity, and not the many false doctrines concering it, is that you win by surrendering. You admitted you fail sometimes. That actually brings you closer to God, because you try to be Christ like, yet admit you sin. It is the admission, the truth that you fail sometimes, and are a sinner, that God witnesses.

This is not to say that one is granted license to sin, and the only requirement is he admits he is a sinner, because he must truly be repentant, and God knows if one is sincere or merely trying to manipulate that which has been said, "Confess you are a sinner to recieve salvation", when, in his heart, he has no sincerity in the confession. He must truly be burdened, and must truly be seeking redemption - and this is the requirement.

And as long as you are human, you will sin. But take heart, Christ has allowed you to ask for forgiveness as many times as you need to, as long as you are sincere about it.


And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

[aksmith]

Lots of scary people on this thread. Ginko is very good for the brain, I understand. Magnesium too.

God is just a couple of misfiring neurons. Always remember that when you think you know something, if its based on faith, you most certainly don't.

[pcosmar]

You know, the only people Jesus ever spoke harshly to were the "religious"folks.
He hung out with Street people, hookers, tax collectors, the guys from the docks etc.
His message was of Love and Forgiveness, not of condemnation.
My two copper pieces.

[Oratio]

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Thomas Jefferson believed in God.

[Ozwest]

pcosmar, Thank you for your post. Too many people fixating on the book of Revalations.

[Ozwest]

As a Truther and an Athiest this thread has taught me a valuable lesson. The shoe on the other foot. Oh the irony!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!